The Energy System - Fundamentally Flawed

[Luminati07]

Hi everyone,

 

tl;dr - Too bad. Read the thread.

 

Before I begin

I'm not suggesting an instant removal of energy orbs, please read the thread for a full understanding.

 

After lurking this thread - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96079-remove-energy-orbs-they-make-the-game-too-easy'>Link

I decided to make a thread in gameplay feedback with a couple of ideas, and for the higher likelihood of DE noticing.

 

The main issue with energy orbs is the skill spam.

Nova can quite easily spam Molecular Prime to destroy everything with ease. This makes basically every single mission a cakewalk (with the exception of high level defense)

That shouldn't happen.

 

Remember, this is beta. Sweeping changes can, and should, happen. Anything that can greatly improve the game prior to its actual release should be done.

 

"Ultimate" skills are generally a super powerful attack/utility that is used when you need it, and then you usually can't use it for a while.

 

So, enter: The cooldown system.

Yes, I know this has been suggested before.

 

Ok, so, like it sounds, I'm suggesting skills have particular cooldowns associated with them.

Obviously this will result in some pretty big gameplay changes, and there will be people that hate it to begin with. However, I truly believe this would be better for the long run.

 

I'll put ideas in list form for easier reading.

1. Energy orbs are removed, and skills have cooldowns.

2. Ability mods will need to be changed, more on that later

3. Auras (Energy Siphon) will need to be changed, more on that later

 

Section One

The removal of energy orbs.

Energy orbs are fundamentally flawed.

They allow for skill spam, which severely reduces the mission difficulty.

 

Difficulty is a constant topic on the forums.

AI tweaks, weapon rebalancing, skill rebalancing. These are some example of constant suggestions.

A cooldown system has the potential to actually give the game more challenge.

It would also make gameplay more meaningful and skillful.

 

You would need to decide the best time to let a skill loose, rather than just use them at your leisure and know you can use it again straight away.

There's several super powerful skills that are spammed to make game difficulty null.

Snow Globe, Bastille, Chaos and Molecular Prime all come to mind.

 

I am not suggesting that DE outright remove the energy system straight away.

My suggestion is this - Implement a cooldown system for Nightmare Mode to start with.

Gauge a response with this.

 

Section 2

Auras and Mods

Ok.

Obviously there are some mods and auras (Streamline, Flow, Energy Siphon) that would need to be changed to suit this mechanic.

Streamline - Instead of power efficiency, it would reduce skill cooldown by x%.

Flow - I'm actually drawing a blank here. You guys can come up with some ideas.

Energy Siphon - Team cooldown reduction.

 

Now, these would need to be handled carefully.

They should not be able to be maxed to have zero cooldown.

Say a cooldown for an ultimate is...1 minute.

Max Streamline could be -35% cooldown. The new cooldown = 39 seconds.

Max Energy Siphon (would need a new name) could be (maxed) -7% cooldown. A team of four running this Aura would be a further -28% cooldown.

This brings the new cooldown to ~22 seconds, rather than one minute.

That's with everyone running the cooldown aura, and you using a max cooldown mod.

 

The one minute was just a random time, I used it because it was simple.

 

I'll continue to add to this thread as it gets feedback, and as I think of more ideas.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Nugget_

[porkabakin11]

I love these ideas, and I would like to suport them +1

BUT. Some abilities would have to be remade in the proccess of doing this. For example, Sonic Boom has to be spammed in order to damage enemies.(3 or 4 times average I think)

My suggestion to fix that is give x ability y amount of uses before cooldown.

Simple as that.

Edited August 16, 2013 by porkabakin11

[XDeathCoreX]

This whole game is built on energy spam, you have enemies coming from behind and basically everywhere, you have grenades that are hard to see preventing you from taking cover, you have teleporting grineer, shockwave moas, prod grineer that do too much damage for someone that teleports, heavy grineer that can shockwave and finish you off, rollers and scorpions.

 

if they remove energy orbs, they should remove all that cheap garbage from enemy lines and add smarter AI and no grineer coming from the room you just cleared. You can easily be surrounded by grenade happy grineer and there are a lot of them at the last half of the mission.

 

All this to make up for dumb AI and power spam. They should just further adjust enemies so that power spam only does so much and no enemies spawning behind you. No scorpions coming up from behind.

 

Energy drain units would help your cause.

 

Energy spam wouldn't be so bad if the game was further built around it like them MMOs out there.

[porkabakin11]

Flow, going with my x ability y cooldown theory, should give the ability more uses.

Doing this would effect everything except (maybe?) ultimates.

[XDeathCoreX]

This all sounds good for Nightmare mode. Making it optional and making it an option and available for every single mission(including alerts with opprtunity to double rewards)with bonus rewards would help. And each of these mods can have a separate nightmare effect which could be what you are suggesting.

 

And of course, there won't be any energy spam in Nightmare mode alone once your idea is implemented. This would give players added choice to play the way they want. A mode with energy spam and a mode w/o it and they should remove the added damage they do to you, it's pointless given the other effects.

 

So i propose this be exclusive to nightmare mode and at launch you'll have a lot more players seeking challenge.

 

You can have the best of both worlds. They should remove the energy drain and replace it with your idea.

 

This is a pretty good idea for Nightmare mode.

Edited August 16, 2013 by XDeathCoreX

[-Kittens-]

Weapons already rule endgame and your and dubins myopic view will only aggravate this paradigm exponentially further.

 

 

 

 

No.

[shinydunsparce]

Beta is NOT where sweeping fundamental changes happen, you're thinking of an alpha.

[LasersGoPewPew]

a cooldown only system actually makes sense, its' annoying when all you see is a nova use M prime every 10 seconds over 5 enemies, or when you see a rhino stomp several times in a minute over one or 2 enemies in their line of sight, you have no chance at killing anything at that point unless its high level defence or Kiste or something maybe. i'd love a cooldown system.

[Luminati07]

Beta is NOT where sweeping fundamental changes happen, you're thinking of an alpha.

In any development stage, sweeping changes can happen.

It's the reason that critics say "This is beta, anything you see is subject to change"

 

Large changes are not exclusive to alphas.

Switching from the old mod system to the new one was fairly substantial, and that happened during closed beta.

[XDeathCoreX]

a cooldown only system actually makes sense, its' annoying when all you see is a nova use M prime every 10 seconds over 5 enemies, or when you see a rhino stomp several times in a minute over one or 2 enemies in their line of sight, you have no chance at killing anything at that point unless its high level defence or Kiste or something maybe. i'd love a cooldown system.

Sounds like you want a nerf. Whether you lower the damage or make the cooldown long, it's still a damage loss.

[fatpig84]

Again people complaining they are feeling useless. I main a Nyx and Loki, and I ain't even complaining.

 

This is a co-op game, I accepted Chaos won't add to my kill count, I accepted that I have to wait till enemies are level 110+ and above then Nyx starts to show her worth. But I guess everyone cares about their "ingame experience" IE damage figures and kill counts.

 

How bout we remove those 2 numbers altogether ?

Edited August 16, 2013 by fatpig84

[Luminati07]

Weapons already rule endgame and your and dubins myopic view will only aggravate this paradigm exponentially further.

 

 

 

 

No.

What?

Endgame wasn't my main focus.

It was only one of them (Bastille, Chaos, Snowglobe spam)

 

This is mostly for the fact that skill spam makes pretty much every single mission laughably easy.

 

Again people complaining they are feeling useless. I main a Nyx and Loki, and I ain't even complaining.

 

This is a co-op game, I accepted Chaos won't add to my kill count, I accepted that I have to wait till enemies are level 110+ and above then Nyx starts to show her worth. But I guess everyone cares about their "ingame experience" IE damage figures and kill counts.

 

How bout we remove those 2 numbers altogether ?

Who was this directed at, because I don't know what you're trying to say.

 

I never spoke about damage figures, kill counts or people feeling useless oO

 

 

[Bakercompany86]

Here's a thread with some good energy system discussion to it.

 

Page 4 is where the heat meter was fleshed out into a solid theory.  I think it's the best one I've heard yet.

 

Get rid of the stupid orb spam.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/90792-energy-system-discussion/page-6

[notlamprey]

I don't know where people get the idea that this would "make late game content all about weapons."

Think about it, people. Implied cooldowns already exist in this game.

(1) Power In Use. If Nyx uses Chaos, she can't use it again until every enemy it touched is no longer affected by it.

(2) If you run out of energy, you have to go scrabble around on the ground scooping up orbs. You might as well call that time a Cooldown too, because it is.

[Haids]

Beta is NOT where sweeping fundamental changes happen, you're thinking of an alpha.

To be fair, in a lot of ways this game resembles an Alpha...

[Tsukinoki]

Little history about this game and early CBT, and I do mean early:

This game had a CD system. DE changed to the current energy system. Why? It slowed down missions and gamplay. And why was that? Because in 90% of the missions you would clear a room and then sit at the doorway for all of your CDs to refresh, and if you didn't then you were actively hurting yourself.

What is the point of rushing into the next room right away when you could wait 60 seconds and be able to rush in and use your ultimate to clear the room and then repeat that with *every* room in the entire mission. That is the biggest problem with a CD system. It breaks the flow of gameplay by bringing the missions to a complete and utter stop because there is litterly no reason to not wait at the doors until all of your CDs refresh.

And this is talking directly from experience. This was happening in pretty much every single mission in the game. The current energy system at least makes you run around and smash boxes or kill enemies to get your energy back, so sitting there wont get you anything.

All a CD system does is make it perferrable to wait outside of every single room to clear it with an ult. And if you are trying to prevent people from doing it...all you'll do is slow them down and allow them to use their ult in every single room that they come across.

Again, this is from experience of playing the game when they had a CD system. DE moved away from it and its a much better game because of it.

[Bakercompany86]

Plenty of developers make sweeping fundamental changes during Beta phase.  Look at War Thunder.

 

 

It just depends on the change, and if it's truly perceived as a benefit for the greater good.

[notlamprey]

Little history about this game and early CBT, and I do mean early:

This game had a CD system. DE changed to the current energy system. Why? It slowed down missions and gamplay. And why was that? Because in 90% of the missions you would clear a room and then sit at the doorway for all of your CDs to refresh, and if you didn't then you were actively hurting yourself.

From which I conclude that their cooldown system needed tweaking or additional depth, and "Blue Gumballs" was a step too far too fast. Now we're all used to it, and it will be tough to switch again to something better.

First of all, this is one of those times where suspension of disbelief breaks down for me. I can believe that a "super suit" has an internal power system and would need to recharge or be otherwise limited.

I can't stretch my disbelief to include breaking storage crates to find magic blue gumballs. This also breaks the flow of gameplay; the only difference is that you're still "running around and doing something." It's the wrong kind of something. Blue Gumballs irritate me, and we can do better.

[Bakercompany86]

Cooldowns of any type aren't for Warframe, but nor are the blue energy balls.

 

That's why I liked the heat meter concept.   It seemed to fit just about every scenario I could think of for every frame.

[Tsukinoki]

@notlamprey

Im not saying that the current system is perfect or anything, I am just saying that the system as we have it is a *lot* better than a CD system where all you would do is spend an extra 10-15+ minutes per mission waiting at each door way for all of your CDs to refresh. *That* is a horrible system that does not fit WF at all.

[notlamprey]

@notlamprey

Im not saying that the current system is perfect or anything, I am just saying that the system as we have it is a *lot* better than a CD system where all you would do is spend an extra 10-15+ minutes per mission waiting at each door way for all of your CDs to refresh. *That* is a horrible system that does not fit WF at all.

I get what you're saying. We all want to avoid a system where "waiting for Ult cooldowns" becomes a regular thing.

Have you read the other Energy System Discussion threads? Some good ideas have been proposed, two of which resemble systems used in the Mass Effect series.

With some time and effort, I think that either an Overheating/Heat Dissipation System or a Weight-moderated Cooldown System can work for this game. They're basically the same thing, actually.

Certain mods could have an "extra attribute" that affects power cooldown/"heat dissipation," and the cumulative effect of all these mods on the whole loadout would push your frame one way or the other on a sliding scale of "Tanky" to "PewPewBBQ." The effects of each mod on this slider would increase with mod rank, and every frame would have its own innate "Cooldown" quotient, just like frames currently have unique values for things like Armor, Speed, and Shield Recharge.

This is just a rough outline, obviously, but the point is that some good, robust ideas are floating around.

[LtZefar]

Why does everything need to have a cool down? It's just boring when you have cool down on everything.

 

Drink a potion. Cool down

Use a skill. Cool down

Warp to another city. Cool down

Use an item. Cool down

Play a special mission. Cool down

 

There are too many cool down in other games. Warframe does not need these silly cool downs. It just doesn't. It's the worst way to balance a game.  Like oh 60 seconds cool down will surely balance this out right? NO, it'll make it boring.

 

If I have enough blue orbs around me to use my ulti a few times I should be allowed to do so. But there is a thing with it. When I hit level 30 I won't be using my Ulti all that much because it stops being useful.

 

I don't see this massive spam of skills when I play because most of the time people are leveling up their weapons. Which btw are pretty powerful and can easily keep up with ultis later on.

 

Mission difficulty isn't always easy because of your warframe skills. I only use buff skills and avoid the ulti when I'm leveling my weapons. If things get a bit too rough I just pull out my Hek and one shot every monster in the room. Or if I'm leveling a primary I pull out my Acrid and one shot everyone in the room.

 

On level ranges from 60 and up, your damage skills will not be all that useful anymore. Your weapon will out damage the skill quite easily.

 

So if I want to spam my skills I should be able to do so. It's fun for those who like to do it and they should be having fun. Putting in limits on how many times you can use a skill will only lead to people just using their gun instead. Like we use almost all the time. It'd be different if skills where far more powerful than the guns are. 

[notlamprey]

Why does everything need to have a cool down? It's just boring when you have cool down on everything.

Drink a potion. Cool down

Use a skill. Cool down

Warp to another city. Cool down

Use an item. Cool down

Play a special mission. Cool down

There are too many cool down in other games. Warframe does not need these silly cool downs. It just doesn't. It's the worst way to balance a game. Like oh 60 seconds cool down will surely balance this out right? NO, it'll make it boring.

I think you might not understand what people are proposing. Nobody is proposing a 60-second cooldown on anything.

Also, cooldowns already exist in this game. Maybe you just didn't notice them.

(1) Power In Use: It's just a Cooldown with a duration based on the length of the ability's effects. Ask someone who's used Nyx for a while. Continuity will make Chaos last longer, but you can't use it again until the effect is no longer applied to anything. Either wait it out, or kill all the enemies it touched.

Bonus points here, because an explicit cooldown system could do away with this annoying implicit cooldown.

(2) Running for Gumballs: If you've ever run out of energy and had to go pick up some orbs, that was a cooldown. You didn't feel it because you brain was chasing a cookie, but it was still there.

[lautalocos]

i think that SOME of the warframes ultimate abilities (the ones that compltetly wreack havock on all enemies) should use all your energy, with a  minimum of 100

[Tsukinoki]

@notlamprey

I have read quite a few of them and I actually like the heat system personally. I was simply putting forward the catchall reply to "Add CDs to warframe!" threads because I have had experience back when we had hard CDs for all abilities.