This is a serious problem.

[Sitchrea]

2 minutes ago, Leland_Gaunt said:

I've watched the whole vid and I'm stumped. This is absolutely ridiculous, hideous even.

If they don't want this to tarnish the reputation of the game, DE should do something about, and something else than their usual "soon™"-approach.

This is absolutely disgusting.

This is the reaction of people when they see what's actually going on. This is why this thread exists.

2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

The terms of service and code of conduct for Warframe only apply to Warframe. Whether DE decides to remove (or not remove) a moderator based on what they do outside of the forums/in-game chat is entirely their prerogative.

Likewise, we (the moderators) will not give warning points, forum suspensions or in-game punishments to users for things they do outside of the game or the forums, as activities outside of Warframe are not something that's covered by the TOS/COC and as a result we do not have appropriate authority to moderate users as such.

Never. If they do it in the in game chat or on the forums, report it. If it's done elsewhere, it's technically outside of our authority to moderate and you should report it to the managing authority of where it's posted (provided it violates the TOS/COC of where it's being posted).

Others have said it above, but there's ample examples of where this is not the case, and people have been punished for things outside the game. What is worse, it is only the people with certain political opinions that get punished. This is where the controversy stems from - double standards and silence. I do appreciate you leveling with us, Letter13.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

People have, what's the old up then? No one would be making post like this, and you wouldn't have to be handling this, if DE looked into the situation.

Who says they haven't looked into the situation? Just because they didn't inform you of any conclusion, doesn't mean conclusions hasn't been made.

Just make the report. That's it. What consequences that comes of it, or if they come any at all, is out of your hands. Same as when you complain about a waiter at a restaurant to the manager. 

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

is this the new Revxdev?

 

No, because this seems to have good intent behind it (besides the witch hunting obviously which I don't condone). RevXdev was just raw drama that was not meant to accomplish anything other than giving everyone involved a bad name. Chat moderation feedback like this is meant to benefit everyone, that being players, DE, and the mods themselves. I consider moderator accountability a reasonable discussion point, though you may disagree, and that's fine.

Edited May 31, 2018 by LazerSkink

[Vilemyre]

Just now, LazerSkink said:

 

No, because this seems to have good intent behind it (besides the witch hunting obviously which I don't condone). RevXdev was just raw drama that was not meant to accomplish anything other than giving everyone involved a bad name. Chat moderation feedback is meant to benefit everyone, that being players, DE, and the mods themselves. I consider moderator accountability a reasonable discussion point, though you may disagree, and that's fine/

Tbh even the video doesn't want a witch hunt. Nobody here is after that because it would put the people in this in power.

However its something people want addressing by DE personally be it Reb, Megan, Steve, whoever.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

Who says they haven't looked into the situation? Just because they didn't inform you of any conclusion, doesn't mean conclusions hasn't been made.

Just make the report. That's it. What consequences that comes of it, or if they come any at all, is out of your hands. Same as when you complain about a waiter at a restaurant to the manager. 

I disagree. Moderator accountability is a public issue within the community, as these are essentially the police of the game, to an extent. We should know if someone is a bad apple, and what is done about said apple if the allegations are correct. If anything just to give us assurance DE are listening to us.

[Sitchrea]

Just now, Vilemyre said:

Tbh even the video doesn't want a witch hunt. Nobody here is after that because it would put the people in this in power.

However its something people want addressing by DE personally be it Reb, Megan, Steve, whoever.

^This

We care about the ethics behind certain decisions in the game. That's what this all boils down to.

[Nines.AI]

The content of that video might've actually held some weight if it wasn't an hour of someone doing a "le funny haha" voice.

It really detracts from any serious point you're trying to make when I'm having to be barraged by winceworthy larping from the first minute.

 

Also I like how I skipped ahead and he was trying to defend Shadow, someone who willingly posted about the issue on pro-gamergate subreddits, showing exactly what kind of stance he was taking whilst trying to be "neutral" lol.

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Nines.AI

[Vilemyre]

2 minutes ago, Nines.AI said:

Also I like how I skipped ahead and he was trying to defend Shadow, someone who willingly posted about the issue on pro-gamergate subreddits.

He was being sarcastic. He says at the end shadow should be punished for using the n-word.

Will admit it is a little cringey with the whole larping even if its meant to be satire.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Vilemyre

[Letter13]

11 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

People have, what's the old up then? No one would be making post like this, and you wouldn't have to be handling this, if DE looked into the situation.

If people have reported it, then it will be handled. Whether it's handled in a way said people want or don't want doesn't change the circumstances. Just because a situation isn't handled the way someone wants doesn't give them permission to violate the code of conduct by trying to name and shame other users.

Unfortunately, the best option is to report it and move on. If DE has reviewed the evidence submitted in the report(s) and reached a decision that no action is necessary, continually making public posts about it, complaining and escalating it to a point where the complaining becomes a TOS/COC violation is not the appropriate response to not getting the resolution you want.

8 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

This is the reaction of people when they see what's actually going on. This is why this thread exists.

Others have said it above, but there's ample examples of where this is not the case, and people have been punished for things outside the game. What is worse, it is only the people with certain political opinions that get punished. This is where the controversy stems from - double standards and silence. I do appreciate you leveling with us, Letter13.

Regular players have not been punished (read: banned, suspended, access to in-game functionality or the forums impacted) over things they do outside the game. Moderators may have their moderation permissions revoked (or Warframe Partners have their partner status revoked) for things they do outside the game--however this is DE's prerogative, these permissions can be granted or revoked for any reason and at any time DE wishes. As I said previously the TOS/COC in the scope of moderation and punishments only applies to the forums and the in-game chat. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Letter13

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, Nines.AI said:

The content of that video might've actually held some weight if it wasn't an hour of someone doing a "le funny haha" voice.

It really detracts from any serious point you're trying to make when I'm having to be barraged by winceworthy larping from the first minute.

 

Also I like how I skipped ahead and he was trying to defend Shadow, someone who willingly posted about the issue on pro-gamergate subreddits, showing exactly what kind of stance he was taking whilst trying to be "neutral" lol.

 

He was not defending Shadow. At all. He was using him as an example to prove his point. Even if his humor is grating, PsyCo makes some excellent points and raises some serious red flags.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Sitchrea said:

I disagree. Moderator accountability is a public issue within the community, as these are essentially the police of the game, to an extent. We should know if someone is a bad apple, and what is done about said apple if the allegations are correct. If anything just to give us assurance DE are listening to us.

 

I'm somewhat on the fence about that. They do make a good point that after reports, there is nothing more that can be done due it being all in DE's hands. It would definitely be nice to know they take action against unruly mods, but at the same time, no matter what way they could present the information to the general playerbase, it seems the mods would get easily identified and flamed whether or not they were revoked of their position.

[Nines.AI]

3 minutes ago, Vilemyre said:

He was being sarcastic

Which part? the hour long cringy RPing or the defending of the mod who willingly went to rally people up on notable rightwing websites and pro-gamergate subs?

 

Admittedly I was skipping through because it was a pretty unbearable video, but I went back and checked that bit for context - it was just the snippet I caught that made him look like he was defending him.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Nines.AI

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, Letter13 said:

Regular players have not been punished (read: banned, suspended, access to in-game functionality or the forums impacted) over things they do outside the game. Moderators may have their moderation permissions revoked (or Warframe Partners have their partner status revoked) for things they do outside the game--however this is DE's prerogative, these permissions can be granted or revoked for any reason and at any time DE wishes. As I said previously the TOS/COC in the scope of moderation and punishments only applies to the forums and the in-game chat. 

Just as a question, have you watched the full video, Letter13?

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

 

I'm somewhat on the fence about that. They do make a good point that after reports, there is nothing more that can be done due it being all in DE's hands. It would definitely be nice to know they take action against unruly mods, but at the same time, no matter what way they could present the information to the general playerbase, it seems the mods would get easily identified and flamed whether or not they were revoked of their position.

I agree, and I want to clarify I was meaning that as a "should" statement, as opposed to a "must" statement.

[rune_me]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

I disagree. Moderator accountability is a public issue within the community, as these are essentially the police of the game, to an extent. We should know if someone is a bad apple, and what is done about said apple if the allegations are correct. If anything just to give us assurance DE are listening to us.

They are not police. DE is a privately owned company. At best, that makes them like private security in your local supermarket.

The public has no say in the matter. And there's no obligation to share any information if they don't want. Like I said, you can complain to the manager. But the manager decides if he takes your complaint serious or not. Of course, if you strongly disagree with his decision, you have a basic consumer right to not go back to that supermarket. But you have no right to demand he listens to you, or informs you about any decisions made.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, Nines.AI said:

Which part? the hour long cringy RPing or the defending of the mod who willingly went to rally people up on notable rightwing websites and pro-gamergate subs?

He wasn't defending Shadow. He was doing quite the opposite.

[Vilemyre]

2 minutes ago, Nines.AI said:

Which part? the hour long cringy RPing or the defending of the mod who willingly went to rally people up on notable rightwing websites and pro-gamergate subs?

The part where he said "the lone samurai warrior with keyboard and sword" and then zoomed in on him saying the n-word with a hard R lol

Thought that alone would have been enough to know he's being sarcastic he thinks shadow is just as bad as everyone else in this video being shown of their actions. The only person even remotely not getting flak is fostinator because he's merely a reference.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Vilemyre

[Letter13]

2 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Just as a question, have you watched the full video, Letter13?

I'm not going to spend an hour of my time watching something that could have probably been summarized in a few sentences.

 

As a moderator I guarantee you that we do not punish users for things they do outside the game (or forums). We do not have the authority to do so, and if we did punish someone in the game or on the forums for something they do outside the game or forums, this is an example of a moderator overstepping their authority and is a case of a moderator abusing their privileges.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Letter13

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Vilemyre said:

Tbh even the video doesn't want a witch hunt. Nobody here is after that because it would put the people in this in power.

 

Yeah, I could have been clearer. I was more referring to the inevitable witch hunts that are just a result of the situation all over reddit, Twitter, etc, not any that potentially had the video as a catalyst.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

They are not police. DE is a privately owned company. At best, that makes them like private security in your local supermarket.

The public has no say in the matter. And there's no obligation to share any information if they don't want. Like I said, you can complain to the manager. But the manager decides if he takes your complaint serious or not. Of course, if you strongly disagree with his decision, you have a basic consumer right to not go back to that supermarket. But you have no right to demand he listens to you, or informs you about any decisions made.

In using your analogy, though, the situations we are bringing light to are those akin to a private security guard calling customers PoS' and idiots for not knowing a product is expired. That is worthy of reprimand, and the victims, I would think, have a right to know what's being done about it.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, Letter13 said:

I'm not going to spend an hour of my time watching something that could have probably been summarized in a few sentences.

I would highly recommend you watch his video. While humorous, he brings to light far, far more than a few sentences worth of issues. It would also do you well to educate on what we're discussing, and why many of us are so riled up about moderator accountability.

[rune_me]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

In using your analogy, though, the situations we are bringing light to are those akin to a private security guard calling customers PoS' and idiots for not knowing a product is expired. That is worthy of reprimand, and the victims, I would think, have a right to know what's being done about it.

No. If it's private employees, the "victims" has no right at all to know. That doesn't mean a company can't inform the public, but they don't need to, and the public most certainly don't have a right to be informed.

[Vilemyre]

Just now, LazerSkink said:

Yeah, I could have been clearer. I was more referring to the inevitable witch hunts that are just a result of the situation all over reddit, Twitter, etc, not any that potentially had the video as a catalyst.

Which hunts happen all the time with backlash. Luckily we aren't a part fo that and we don't want to be thank god.

But thank you for the clarification. It will suck of there are witch hunts and it wouldn't solve anything.

[artemisfortune]

14 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

While I fullheartedly agree with you on this issue, please do remember that, as a Moderator, @Letter13 is the same rank as the players in question, and therefore couldn't do anything about this even if he wanted to.

I get the feeling he is just trying to do his job while waiting for DE to make a decision on something that is out of his hands.

I understand that, and that's why I said if DE would make a decision, even if it's one I don't like, if they just said "hey, we heard you, and we're not going to change anything." that'd be a helluvalot better than just saying "we hear you and now we need to 'collect feedback'"

[Sh1batata]

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

 

Yeah, I could have been clearer. I was more referring to the inevitable witch hunts that are just a result of the situation all over reddit, Twitter, etc, not any that potentially had the video as a catalyst.

Think it this way: if DE had made a better job at filtering their community representatives said video would never be made and thus no "witch hunts" started. It all boils down to DE almost-like-incompetence.