Mod Polarity Penalties For Balance.

[Onite]

I just had what i thought was a great idea for balance.

Instead of having linear winning damage builds, this would encourage people to make their weapons all build differently.

 

EDIT: *Before you keep reading, bear in mind this is an idea where enemy scaling is taken out of the game. Meaning, no more enemies that have 100000k hp endgame so you have to build 1000k damage guns to match them. (i hate that garbage and warframe shouldnt end up like that.)*

 

EDIT #2. For those of you thinking "wahh i dont want a nerf." It isnt a nerf. Refer to this thread i made: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/88684-the-needed-overhaul-that-will-never-happen/#entry980371

 

How it would work is mods with the same polarity on the same piece of gear decrease in power.

Lets say you have serration and mutli shot? You could have both, but both will only be at 50% of what their max mod rank is. So when you slap down a 100% multi shot next to a 120% damage mod, you instead get 50% multi shot and 60% damage. This will also make it so elemental mods also cannot be stacked for heaps of damage.

 

This also goes for people who spam abilities. While i still think most slot 4 abilities need to be nerfed or rebalanced and changed completely, this would help make it so You cant have for example, excaliburs with max +energy and energy efficiency spamming slash dash and radial javelin. Or Rhino being near invincible while also having double damage and rhino stomp being spammed or stacked.This also prevents stacking of anything in the game, including max health + shields + health/shields dual mods.

 

I realize this "nerfs" almost every stacking build in the game and thats the point. The enemies would also of course need to be nerfed as well to fit the difficulty of these new builds. it also promotes diversity in making your own unique build instead of having to worry about maxing damage only and DPS.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Onite

[porkabakin11]

[Lumireaver]

This is a mostly bad, semi-good idea.

You're trying to fix the "one-build" dilemma, which is good, but in reality you're just globally nerfing literally everything.

 

Slightly unrelated, but (one of) the source(s) of the dilemma was the introduction of forma. You see, forma kind of totally destroyed an element of game balance. (See: default polarities) Back then, a weapon's default polarities kind of helped to curb the rainbow build problem. We can't just undo forma though, and it's also worth noting that Steve tends to favor adding over subtracting. (See: Aura mods adding mod capacity instead of costing points.)

 

Also people need to stop with the .gifs.

[Lady_Khaos]

[Althix]

no. you know why? as it now weapons have tiers. this system you are offering will only enforce the difference between low tier weapons and high tier weapons. So it will result in no-no to Braton or Boar on highlevel standart runs let say 15 waves of OT. So your system will only enlarge mastery only weapons division.

 

p.s. Also, what Lumireaver said.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Althix

[Maniac523]

The problem I see with this is instead of encouraging building a 'balanced' weapon, it simply discourages modding. For instance, I have Speed Trigger, Serration, Split Chamber, and Thunderbolt on my Paris. I need all of them to be useful in most missions, but why should I bother keeping any of them on if they're just going to lose 87.5% of their effectiveness? Most weapons are useless against level 35+ without mods, so while doing this would make mid-level (30-60) more balanced, it would make high level (which can reach as high as 120) impossible. 

[Angius]

How about no? Most of the weapons and skills are useless against high-level enemies, and you want to make them even more useless? Hell no!

[Onite]

How about no? Most of the weapons and skills are useless against high-level enemies, and you want to make them even more useless? Hell no!

Try reading the entire post instead of disagreeing with half of the whole idea.

 

This is a mostly bad, semi-good idea.

You're trying to fix the "one-build" dilemma, which is good, but in reality you're just globally nerfing literally everything.

 

Slightly unrelated, but (one of) the source(s) of the dilemma was the introduction of forma. You see, forma kind of totally destroyed an element of game balance. (See: default polarities) Back then, a weapon's default polarities kind of helped to curb the rainbow build problem. We can't just undo forma though, and it's also worth noting that Steve tends to favor adding over subtracting. (See: Aura mods adding mod capacity instead of costing points.)

 

Also people need to stop with the .gifs.

Thing is, it doesnt nerf "everything." It nerfs things that are overused and over abused. like stacking multishot, serration, elementals, shred, speed trigger, and duals like wildfire. Where you simply put all the "Good choices" into a gun without any downsides or anything. and its like this with every single weapon in the game except for melee.

 

This would not effect things like instead, putting other mods in like fast hands or armor piercing, or even thunderclap which is never used, so you can actually customize your gun to your playstyle. +++++Damage should not be a playstyle. Instead it should be a mix of things to get different effects out of your gun that make it more versatile and alittle more powerful.

 

Its much better to let people make builds that actually work where you could do stuff like actually go for criticals or build for stun. Mods that go well together without stacking. Thats the whole idea here. Having options in warframe.

 

As for forma, like you said, it only effects mod points, so this idea still really doesnt effect forma at all. It just lets you equip higher ranked mods. It doesnt disable you from equipping mods altogether.

 

 

 

To all of you that are just like "no." stop and think for a second. Instead of instantly thinking "ew gross no, i dont want to be weak."

Read the whole thread. At the bottom i mention the enemies would need to be nerfed as well so that the game isnt all about high numbers but instead about what kind of guns you can build. Cause lets be honest, your priorities are strictly "More damage." Instead of "lets get mutli shot and stun and fire rate so i can fight better against infested."

[-Kittens-]

Your idea is terrible and I hate it,

 

Having a bunch of mods that have no synergy on my gun is hilariously dumb and I'll stop playing in a week because there's absolutely no point to upgrading equipment incrementally.

Edited August 20, 2013 by -Kittens-

[GeoffFromAccounting]

what you're suggesting will ruin modding as a whole. The point of modding is to improve your performance, right now on my Vandletron I have: 70% Rifle Damage, 60% Freeze Damage and 60% Electric Damage, now if this was implemented this would reduce the efficiency of that to almost nothing, so I may as well just remove all those mods, seeing as they're providing as much as a bonus as a non leveled Rife Amp Aura

[Onite]

what you're suggesting will ruin modding as a whole. The point of modding is to improve your performance, right now on my Vandletron I have: 70% Rifle Damage, 60% Freeze Damage and 60% Electric Damage, now if this was implemented this would reduce the efficiency of that to almost nothing, so I may as well just remove all those mods, seeing as they're providing as much as a bonus as a non leveled Rife Amp Aura

 

You still improve your performance by raising mods. If the max rank of serration is like 165%, even when cut in half, its still higher than 50% at a lower rank cut in half. Your logic doesnt make sense. "wahh, i cant stack 60% damage times 3."  When in fact they're elemental mods and they really honestly should be there for elemental effect, which have certain bonuses and weaknesses to certain enemies. Instead its just pure damage, with no downside whatsoever. Whats the point of THAT? Whats the point of just having 6 different mods that all do the exact same thing all inside of your weapons? Wheres the depth? Wheres the fun? Wheres anything other than pointless powercreep and stacking? Wouldnt you rather have the freedom to experiment and manage different mods to see what you can come up with, without having to worry about "i need x damage for endgame.?"

 

Your idea is terrible and I hate it,

 

Having a bunch of mods that have no synergy on my gun is hilariously dumb and I'll stop playing in a week because there's absolutely no point to upgrading equipment incrementally.

Absolute no it wouldnt. There is no "synergy" at all inbetween any of your damage mods other than stacking damage.

 

If anything, adding this makes other mods more appealing by actually promoting synergy. Like i mentioned to someone else. Faster fire rates + stun chance + critical chance + multi shot would be a great build compared to just trying to stack damage + damage + damage + damage + damage + x2 damage. How do you guys not understand that?

[-Kittens-]

sigh.

 

WF is about grinding.

 

Grinding requires efficiency.

 

Damage improves drop rates.

 

Your solution is for me to stick everything else on my gun so combat takes LONGER, de-levelled enemies or not.

 

F@<k that.

 

seriously.

Edited August 20, 2013 by -Kittens-

[Onite]

sigh.

 

WF is about grinding.

 

Grinding requires efficiency.

 

Damage improves drop rates.

 

Your solution is for me to stick everything else on my gun so combat takes LONGER, de-levelled enemies or not.

 

F@<k that.

 

seriously.

How would it take longer? And warframe should not be about grinding/farming. If you actually think grinding and farming is fun, why do you play warframe instead of something like ragnarok online?

[-Kittens-]

Did I say anywhere grinding is fun?

 

Whether it should or shouldn't be about grinding is completely immaterial, because it is.

 

The End.

 

Your idea directly extends grinding and actively punishes players, and thus I hate it.

Edited August 20, 2013 by -Kittens-

[Angius]

So, you want to nerf all weapons and warframes AND you hope, that enemies will also be nerfed? I mean, what's the point of nerfing them both?

Now enemy got, let's say, 2000 armor, and our weapon got 100 damage. After implementing your idea anemies will got 1000 armor, and we will got 50 damage.

Again, what's the point?

 

Why are you so much against stacking damage? What, someone killed "your" enemy because he got maxed multishot and serration?

You know what is cool in our current system? It's that I can multiply my damage with damage mod AND multiply it with multishot AND multiply it with double mod AND add elemental damage.

You are trying to make situational weapons even more situational, same as Frames! You are saying, that specialized weapons should be weaker than they are now (for damage - serration without multishot), and also you want jacks-of-all-trades even weaker (half of multishot and half of serration)...

 

Keep in mind, that every person in this thread hates your idea. Yo know, it means something. It means, that you are the only one that wants such nerf. Sorry to be that guy, but I need to say, that minority or even single person should never decide for majority. You are this single person, rest of forums are in majority. You lost, your idea should be buried 10 feet underground, deal with it.

[Lumireaver]

Thing is, it doesnt nerf "everything." It nerfs things that are overused and over abused. like stacking multishot, serration, elementals, shred, speed trigger, and duals like wildfire. Where you simply put all the "Good choices" into a gun without any downsides or anything. ...

- snip - 

Thats the whole idea here. Having options in warframe.

 

It does. If you think about it for a moment you'll see that this doesn't promote choice. I only shifts the current paradigm so that the "most viable build" becomes a different selection of mods.

 

Also there are (currently) three polarities which would have to be distributed among eight mod slots, so you're only option with this set up is to get screwed over.

 

When you're suggesting a fix, you've got to avoid trying to tear down the house. Build on what's already there. Or just listen to the community. "Don't nerf X, buff Y."

[Onite]

It does. If you think about it for a moment you'll see that this doesn't promote choice. I only shifts the current paradigm so that the "most viable build" becomes a different selection of mods.

 

Also there are (currently) three polarities which would have to be distributed among eight mod slots, so you're only option with this set up is to get screwed over.

 

When you're suggesting a fix, you've got to avoid trying to tear down the house. Build on what's already there. Or just listen to the community. "Don't nerf X, buff Y."

The problem is there is no room for buffing further of the other mods without things getting extremely out of hand.

 

As for choice, yes, it does promote choice and i'm sorry but you have to be completely delusional if you think you have choice with how it is right now.

 

None of you seem to have any comprehension of how this actually works. its not a nerf, its a different system entirely. Everything is re-arranged.

 

 

So, you want to nerf all weapons and warframes AND you hope, that enemies will also be nerfed? I mean, what's the point of nerfing them both?

Now enemy got, let's say, 2000 armor, and our weapon got 100 damage. After implementing your idea anemies will got 1000 armor, and we will got 50 damage.

Again, what's the point?

 

Why are you so much against stacking damage? What, someone killed "your" enemy because he got maxed multishot and serration?

You know what is cool in our current system? It's that I can multiply my damage with damage mod AND multiply it with multishot AND multiply it with double mod AND add elemental damage.

You are trying to make situational weapons even more situational, same as Frames! You are saying, that specialized weapons should be weaker than they are now (for damage - serration without multishot), and also you want jacks-of-all-trades even weaker (half of multishot and half of serration)...

 

Keep in mind, that every person in this thread hates your idea. Yo know, it means something. It means, that you are the only one that wants such nerf. Sorry to be that guy, but I need to say, that minority or even single person should never decide for majority. You are this single person, rest of forums are in majority. You lost, your idea should be buried 10 feet underground, deal with it.

You for example especially dont understand my idea at all so i'm going to use your reply to better explain it.

 

Firstly, everything wouldbe simplified, not nerfed.

 

Instead of starting out with a gun that does 4 damage against enemies that have 50 health, and then endgame being the same gun with 400 damage, and 5,000 health, Nothing has honestly changed since you were unranked with no mods, the only things that really change are when the mods that dont have to do  with damage or health are put on, things like thunderbolt, reload speed, multishot, firing speed, damage TYPES, run speed, stamina regain, max stamina, and piercing. all of those mods are mostly under rated and come second or third in priority while things like serration, elemental damage, damage, damage, damage, damage is all taking up nearly your entire weapon's mod pool.

 

This is because endgame and progression requires you to have high damage in order to match and keep up with your enemies.

 

Instead if things were simplified so there was no need for insane damage for insanely strong enemies, you can do more things like come up with different builds for your gun, so you can concentrate on speed, or crits, or stun, thunderbolt, eagle eye, primed chamber, and surface piercing.

 

So you can make guns that have more potential to be vastly different to your playstyle, without having to stack damage completely. You can STILL get more damage with this concept, but the damage ceiling is just lower, because the need for it against enemies wont exist anymore, this way you're not overpowered with a winning build for only nuking and one shotting enemies. This also keeps previous planets more challenging and less exploitable for farming, it also breaks down the walls between new and older players, so that they can play with eachother without the older players taking away from the new ones.

 

This entire thing keeps the game from getting boring. Which is something warframe is in danger of because of powercreeping. It gets rid of there being a need to get through an area and then discard it to never return because its too easy to play through.

[Angius]

Ok, so you want to create a system, where unranked players with unranked gear can kill enemies almost as easily, as ran 17 players with maxed gear. And that's because mods will got nerfed if used in certain combinations. And you want to force specializations on us. "You can get +x% fire rate, but you can't have +y% damage with it, so decide - firerate or damage?". And THAT is what's not cool.

You are trying to force us to use various situational weapons: damage + electricity on Corpus, fire + firerate on Infested, multishot + AP on Grineer, etc. Why? Because you think, that we got only one good setup now (all in damage output), and with your system we will have choice.

 

Nope.

 

There will still be only one viable loadot for every weapon. The system may change, but not the calculations. Someone will count damage from certain mods, will multiply, divide, add, and will say: "Level 7 Serration, level 5 Multishot and level 2 Firerate will give you the highest possible amount of DPS". And people will use only that setup.

 

And you will create another thread.

 

"Now we got only one possible setup, so... Let's take square root of damage if used with mod X, bt only up to 6th level, above 6th level let's take cubic root of..."

And only formula will change.

 

Your vision is as beautiful as impossible it is.

[Onite]

Ok, so you want to create a system, where unranked players with unranked gear can kill enemies almost as easily, as ran 17 players with maxed gear. And that's because mods will got nerfed if used in certain combinations. And you want to force specializations on us. "You can get +x% fire rate, but you can't have +y% damage with it, so decide - firerate or damage?". And THAT is what's not cool.

You are trying to force us to use various situational weapons: damage + electricity on Corpus, fire + firerate on Infested, multishot + AP on Grineer, etc. Why? Because you think, that we got only one good setup now (all in damage output), and with your system we will have choice.

 

Nope.

 

There will still be only one viable loadot for every weapon. The system may change, but not the calculations. Someone will count damage from certain mods, will multiply, divide, add, and will say: "Level 7 Serration, level 5 Multishot and level 2 Firerate will give you the highest possible amount of DPS". And people will use only that setup.

 

And you will create another thread.

 

"Now we got only one possible setup, so... Let's take square root of damage if used with mod X, bt only up to 6th level, above 6th level let's take cubic root of..."

And only formula will change.

 

Your vision is as beautiful as impossible it is.

You still dont understand. If you want to stack things for effect, you still can, you just dont get insane amounts of damage from it. You want serration AND speed trigger? you would still get both, you just wouldnt be firing bullets for 200 damage at 500 a second.

 

This way if someone wanted to alternatively go with multishot and speed trigger, it does around the same dps as serration and speed trigger.

 

Even though the two builds could be done on the SAME gun, the gun itself would behave differently, and be better at different situations, instead of a damage x6 gun being the best at everything while mods like thunderbolt and metal auger are useless.

 

 

And no, an unranked player still wouldnt do as well as someone with a fully modded gun. They would have a hard time with stock gear, while the other player has better survivability than the other. But if that new player made a build that works well with others, then they could be of help to even older players.

 

As for "best build" with certain guns, theres good choices for certain guns, but that doesnt mean its the best build. Look at sniper rifles for example. Primed chamber is probably a very good choice, though surface piercing  is also great against stacked crowds in hallways, and then if you wanted both, serration, and an ice element in your gun, AND metal auger, you could do something like shoot through a bunch of enemies, slow them down, and deal a decent amount of damage. But you could do more damage against a single enemy if you just didnt use metal auger and ice. This way situationally, you're better against bosses or other single targets that are tough.

 

This way you cant just be like "i'm going to freeze/penetrate/destroy everything with no downside whatsoever, everything is an upgrade,"

 

Mods need to stick to their name. They need to modify your weapons and builds. Not upgrade them in a linear RPG path.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Onite

[dukelego]

How about we make the ai smarter and change their health accordingly then we dont have to worry about it.