Sortie slowly becoming trivial

[GunRunnerX]

11 hours ago, Methanoid said:

when you run out of things to do as a vet, you either bail to another game while waiting to see if there is any relevance to you in the next expansion drop

This is me.  I lurk these forums and wait for the promised day.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

30 minutes ago, GunRunnerX said:

It's misleading to frame it this way, they're only indirectly favoring one demographics vs another as a result of directly favoring their sources of revenue.  While I can't blame a business for wanting to make more money (it only exists for this purpose), but it treads us into dangerous territory where the decisions become exclusively aligned to revenue generation.  If you look at the last several years of development, it's very skewed in this direction.  Not every decision should be made based off the direct return of cash.  There's still potential value to be gained.  And even more important, using revenue as the only justification is also an argument that could be used to defend unscrupulous practices.  Unscrupulous may be the wrong word in this example with DE, but I think the worry is still there.

You mean...almost like.. *gasp*  ..a business plan? 😮  /s

My big issue with this mindset is you assume that a business just -wants- to make money, and neglect to point out that it NEEDS to do so, as well! 

There are people, just like you and I, who WORK at DE, who have children and families to feed, doctor bills to pay, loans for cars, houses, college to pay off...

It's not like Reb, Megan, and Steve just sit atop a giant mountain of gold coins, laughing at our grinding misery.... 

I am sooooo over having to explain this 1000x times.   There's too many of these threads about how "DE wants to make money.  How EVIL of them!"

They literally give you their -entire game- for FREE, ALL the content, all the updates, even the PREMIUM CURRENCY.

If you ask me, they don't have any more money to GIVE you.

And on the OTHER end of the argument, what's wrong with people who PAY having some sort of "advantage"?  All they're doing is fast-forwarding through the grind which, imo, is the best part of the game sooo....let 'em.  I don't see how this affects you in any ways, shape, or form.

Edited August 10, 2018 by (PS4)Taishin_Ishu

[GunRunnerX]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

You mean...almost like.. *gasp*  ..a business plan? 😮  /s

My big issue with this mindset is you assume that a business just -wants- to make money, and neglect to point out that it NEEDS to do so, as well! 

There are people, just like you and I, who WORK at DE, who have children and families to feed, doctor bills to pay, loans for cars, houses, college to pay off...

It's not like Reb, Megan, and Steve just sit atop a giant mountain of gold coins, laughing at our grinding misery.... 

I am sooooo over having to explain this 1000x times.   There's too many of these threads about how "DE wants to make money.  How EVIL of them!"

They literally give you their -entire game- for FREE, ALL the content, all the updates, even the PREMIUM CURRENCY.

If you ask me, they don't have any more money to GIVE you.

And on the OTHER end of the argument, what's wrong with people who PAY having some sort of "advantage"?  All they're doing is fast-forwarding through the grind which, imo, is the best part of the game sooo....let 'em.  I don't see how this affects you in any ways, shape, or form.

Maybe I'm too critical but this just sounds like a devil's advocate breakdown of the situation.  You could use any number of the above to justify almost anything, which is why I don't care for the argument.

It's my perspective that they're already comfortable with their current sources of revenue.  They could make adjustments to their model to allow them to make money off vets as well.  The issue is likely that creating more challenging content would take a bit more effort than continuously re-using cookie cutter type, easier missions.  I'll go back to this example again, other dungeon crawl / action titles like Path of Exile.  it's free just like Warframe, has a cosmetic-only item mall, with extreme levels of both easy and incredibly difficult (and rewarding) content, with a nice range in between for anyone who's interested in the game.  They still make tons of money, but you will notice from the quality and content of their updates that they put far more effort and thought process into their direction.  They seem interested in the "spirit" of their game, in addition to revenue, and the results are great both for them and their player base.  

I do not see a clear argument why we should be content with DE just leaving the top half of the equation off the table.  Especially when there's plenty of of people asking for more difficult content, they definitely have at least a pool of interest.  It's not just one or two people that feel this way.  And again, I don't believe it should be incredibly hard for them to focus a little resources in this direction.  It's not unreasonable is it?  And if so, how come the model works so successfully for other FTP titles?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

44 minutes ago, GunRunnerX said:

Maybe I'm too critical but this just sounds like a devil's advocate breakdown of the situation.  You could use any number of the above to justify almost anything, which is why I don't care for the argument.

It's my perspective that they're already comfortable with their current sources of revenue.  They could make adjustments to their model to allow them to make money off vets as well.  The issue is likely that creating more challenging content would take a bit more effort than continuously re-using cookie cutter type, easier missions.  I'll go back to this example again, other dungeon crawl / action titles like Path of Exile.  it's free just like Warframe, has a cosmetic-only item mall, with extreme levels of both easy and incredibly difficult (and rewarding) content, with a nice range in between for anyone who's interested in the game.  They still make tons of money, but you will notice from the quality and content of their updates that they put far more effort and thought process into their direction.  They seem interested in the "spirit" of their game, in addition to revenue, and the results are great both for them and their player base.  

I do not see a clear argument why we should be content with DE just leaving the top half of the equation off the table.  Especially when there's plenty of of people asking for more difficult content, they definitely have at least a pool of interest.  It's not just one or two people that feel this way.  And again, I don't believe it should be incredibly hard for them to focus a little resources in this direction.  It's not unreasonable is it?  And if so, how come the model works so successfully for other FTP titles?

Ya know the real issue here is you keep trying to "prove your point" with subjective information, which is neither scientific nor relevant. 

Allow me to present you with cold, hard facts.

1) You do not have access to DE's profits/losses, nor their budget.  You cannot specify what they make, nor where they can or should allocate their financial resources.  You also falsely assume that "top-tier players", however you define those, make up the "top half" of the playerbase.  Based on what concrete info?

2) Path of Exile is nothing like Warframe's business model.  At all.  I wear a shirt.  Dwayne Johnson also wears shirts.  Does that make me a body builder? No. (and you picked apart MY argument?)

3) You are, for some reason, assuming that just because content does not currently exist that meets your standards for "difficult", that DE is not currently making it?  DE has clearly announced Fortuna, bigger bosses, Railjack, new cinematic quests, and more.  Where in those plans did they appear to be ignoring the requests for more content?
Just because I'm cooking a turkey in the oven, it doesn't mean I'm not aware that you're hungry NOW.  It means that I don't have a friggin' time machine and you just have to be patient. it

4) Finally, you cannot objectively state what one would perceive as "rewarding" or "challenging" gameplay in Warframe.  What is "fun" to you is boring or annoying to another.
I, for one, love Archwing, love long Survivals (when time allows it), and really enjoy Sorties, Acolytes, Eidolons, etc.  In MY "perspective", DE has not disappointed me, even a little bit.  My opinions are as valid as anyone elses, but you state your opinions as if they are simply "the way things are", which is incredibly misleading and quite frankly dishonest.

I find just hanging out in the Dojo very "rewarding".  I don't get mod drops for doing so.  I don't make a ton of plat from it...and yet I still enjoy it, because hey...go figure, some of us actually find the reward for playing the game to be, ya know...PLAYING THE GAME.

But if you need trophies for everything to give you a reason to play, maybe pick up some new titles, or start a new account.  Warframe has been increasingly successful for over 5 years now....I see no reason to believe they don't know what they're doing.

I cannot stand by and watch people rip a developer to shreds and claim it is "too profit-focused" when that developer has made their entire career off of the FREE-EST F2P title there has ever been!   Come on, for pete's sake!

[EpicBred]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

But there is no "final mission" or "end of the game".  The game is continually in development, with new nodes and missions being added all the time.  So, to say we're "starting over in NG+" would be misleading

Once youve completed every node on the starchart you can access "difficulty level 2". Its practically the same, but the wording fits a little better. Changing difficulty happens via dropdown menu in the starchart screen.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, EpicBred said:

Once youve completed every node on the starchart you can access "difficulty level 2". Its practically the same, but the wording fits a little better. Changing difficulty happens via dropdown menu in the starchart screen.

I feel like I'm going in circles here because I've had this discussion over and over on the forums, buuuut....

If we have a "drop down" and that creates different instances from the original starchart, then the original starchart becomes less populated.  If THAT'S the case, then new players who are looking for guidance are less likely to find themselves in a helpful squad and more likely to find themselves stuck with other, equally frustrated and confused new players.
This is bad for the new player intro to the game.  This community has thrived off of supporting each other, and to split that down the middle will not help that whatsoever.

Regardless, this whole thing would only force more cheese tactics, reinforcing the meta, and there aren't any rewards that'd make sense to add to it, so....meh.

ESO, Sorties, and Simulacrum all have high levels.   PvP has equally skilled players instead of AI.   There are your endgames 😕

[EpicBred]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

If we have a "drop down" and that creates different instances from the original starchart, then the original starchart becomes less populated.  If THAT'S the case, then new players who are looking for guidance are less likely to find themselves in a helpful squad and more likely to find themselves stuck with other, equally frustrated and confused new players.
This is bad for the new player intro to the game.  This community has thrived off of supporting each other, and to split that down the middle will not help that whatsoever.

Newbies should play with newbies, and not get carried through the game by fully geared players who already completed the game. They can ask for guidance in the region chat. Guidance isnt randomly meeting someone in a mission that one shots everything before you even have a chance to try hitting them yourself.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

Regardless, this whole thing would only force more cheese tactics, reinforcing the meta, and there aren't any rewards that'd make sense to add to it, so....meh.

Oh no, people could actually use the builds they have perfected for months and not have an mr 5 in squad that can easily keep up because he got a free soma prime from twitch.

Sure you might not need more skill (you do, but many players like to deny that), but you totally do need better builds and gear. Stuff that right now feels pointlessly overpowered.

Also, rewards. Just increase the amount of resources you get. More kuva, more endo, etc. Maybe even a higher chance at dropping rare parts.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

ESO, Sorties, and Simulacrum all have high levels.   PvP has equally skilled players instead of AI.   There are your endgames 😕

This thread should show you that that endgame isnt endgame enough. Also, simulacrum? Pvp? Seriously?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

52 minutes ago, EpicBred said:

 

This thread should show you that that endgame isnt endgame enough. Also, simulacrum? Pvp? Seriously?

More endgame is on the way, which honestly I don't know why people call it endgame in a game where the goal, if there is one, is being placed progressively further away with every update.

Regardless, you said you wanted to "test" builds, and Simulacrum IS for that.  PvP Is a great place to test SKILL, since you're not fight AI.  Truths

[angias]

il y a 39 minutes, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu a dit :

More endgame is on the way, which honestly I don't know why people call it endgame in a game where the goal, if there is one, is being placed progressively further away with every update.

Regardless, you said you wanted to "test" builds, and Simulacrum IS for that.  PvP Is a great place to test SKILL, since you're not fight AI.  Truths

My intend was to make sortie harder for new players.

If this guy want to be chalenged he must accept damage 3.0 before asking for higuer difficulty.

Edited August 11, 2018 by angias

[Acersecomic]

Sortie has been a joke for a very long time, not "slowly", it's been trivial for quite a while now 😛

What sorties need are to be actual SORTIES. Well developed missions unique to sorties, all of high difficulty. Kind of like Ambulas Assassination at Sortie 3, that always feels fun and challenging.

[(XBOX)DeadFall526]

I dont even do them, I did two, first one I got a Sculpture, the second I got a a freaking forma, GO TO HELL! Nope no more no way. RNG my ass. Its funny, the forma run I did everything, carried the group which is fine but when I got that after picking up everyone 60 times and busting my ass I said NOPE never again. Fool me once,fine fool me twice ? there wont be a third time. I can get Rivens other ways.  Forma for a sortie, DE really ? Why is that even in the reward pool FFS ?

[angias]

il y a 53 minutes, (XB1)DeadFall526 a dit :

I dont even do them, I did two, first one I got a Sculpture, the second I got a a freaking forma, GO TO HELL! Nope no more no way. RNG my ass. Its funny, the forma run I did everything, carried the group which is fine but when I got that after picking up everyone 60 times and busting my ass I said NOPE never again. Fool me once,fine fool me twice ? there wont be a third time. I can get Rivens other ways.  Forma for a sortie, DE really ? Why is that even in the reward pool FFS ?

Because alot of player do enjoy forma.

Btw you can't get riven elsewhere.

You werre quite unlucky to get a team this bad.

[AtsiaZ]

1 hour ago, (XB1)DeadFall526 said:

I dont even do them, I did two, first one I got a Sculpture, the second I got a a freaking forma, GO TO HELL! Nope no more no way. RNG my ass. Its funny, the forma run I did everything, carried the group which is fine but when I got that after picking up everyone 60 times and busting my ass I said NOPE never again. Fool me once,fine fool me twice ? there wont be a third time. I can get Rivens other ways.  Forma for a sortie, DE really ? Why is that even in the reward pool FFS ?

A fully built forma is always a good reward. Forma is ALWAYS useful. On the note of rivens, true, if you want to dive into the mess that is the riven market.

Finally, sucks to suck bro.

RNG cares not for what you do or the effort you put in.  Who cares if you carried your team, you'll always have the same chance of getting anything of the drop table.

[(XBOX)DeadFall526]

1 hour ago, Atsia said:

A fully built forma is always a good reward. Forma is ALWAYS useful. On the note of rivens, true, if you want to dive into the mess that is the riven market.

Finally, sucks to suck bro.

RNG cares not for what you do or the effort you put in.  Who cares if you carried your team, you'll always have the same chance of getting anything of the drop table.

Jesus... YES thank you , like I didnt know that and way to completely miss my point. Please dont insult me by telling me a fully built Forma is a good reward for carrying a entire Sortie, if you believe that you must be a either dumber than S#&$ or or new or both and BTW I am not your "bro" . 

[(XBOX)DeadFall526]

2 hours ago, angias said:

Because alot of player do enjoy forma.

Btw you can't get riven elsewhere.

You werre quite unlucky to get a team this bad.

Yes I was, I have 27 formas, a forma for a Sorite reward is WRONG PERIOD!!!!!!!!  Yes I can get rivens elsewhere,from other players. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)DeadFall526 said:

Jesus... YES thank you , like I didnt know that and way to completely miss my point. Please dont insult me by telling me a fully built Forma is a good reward for carrying a entire Sortie, if you believe that you must be a either dumber than S#&$ or or new or both and BTW I am not your "bro" . 

I don't mind free Forma.  I play Sortie for the fun.  Rewards are just a welcomed bonus.  There isn't one thing on there that I can't use.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Acersecomic:

What sorties need are to be actual SORTIES.

Agreed. As long as we're still able to spam abilities 24/7 the conditions are actually mostly meaningless.

[AtsiaZ]

1 hour ago, (XB1)DeadFall526 said:

Jesus... YES thank you , like I didnt know that and way to completely miss my point. Please dont insult me by telling me a fully built Forma is a good reward for carrying a entire Sortie, if you believe that you must be a either dumber than S#&$ or or new or both and BTW I am not your "bro" . 

 I'm saying a fully built forma is a worthwhile reward period. They're never NOT useful or needed.  And I did get your point. Individual effort in a mission doesn't warrant you any better chances at rewards from our current system, and I personally don't think it should, that would shaft new players and potentially increase the divide and time it takes to reach the level of the vets.  You feel RNG should've benefited you for your work, but that's just not how that works. There's no need for insults.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Atsia

[angias]

Il y a 3 heures, (XB1)DeadFall526 a dit :

Yes I was, I have 27 formas, a forma for a Sorite reward is WRONG PERIOD!!!!!!!!  Yes I can get rivens elsewhere,from other players. 

You are too weak to do sortie, yet you want to takle the riven meta....

Btw a forma has the same value for me than a riven, wich is surpassed only by orokin catalyst and lenz.

[EpicBred]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

More endgame is on the way, which honestly I don't know why people call it endgame in a game where the goal, if there is one, is being placed progressively further away with every update.

We will probably have to wait for at least another year to get that endgame, which might not even be endgame.

Games usually get progressively harder, so the hardest stuff is at the end of the game, where the player should have maxed all his stuff and gear. Thats why its called endgame. In warframe we dont have difficult content for the maxed players, thats why were calling for "proper" endgame.

vor 15 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

Regardless, you said you wanted to "test" builds, and Simulacrum IS for that.

No i didnt. I said i want to be able to use my builds without feeling like i wasted my time.

BTW im not brain dead, i still want to play the game. Spawning 20 enemies, killing them and respawning them again isnt playing the game.

vor 15 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

PvP Is a great place to test SKILL, since you're not fight AI.

You have a really weird view on those who are asking for a challenge. Im not going like "ok, ive tested that my builds would theoretically reck high level enemies that i dont actually meet when playing normally, so im satisfied with them. Now i can test my skill in a completely seperate minigame where my build doesnt have any effect."

[DuhItzLink]

sorties are sorties, normal missions with higher level enemies with modifiers. If you get a really bad combination of mission type and modifier, for example my most hated one is excavation + armor/shields, then its hard. if you get let's say exterminate + radiation its not much. I do agree some mission types are better to be in sorties than others. Spy and excavation are a real test of skill, while defense you can just keep reviving the target, and survival you dont really need a nekros and stuff cause the towers are pretty sufficient. There should be enemies like hyenas integrated in sorties, and give even us with broken rivens a challenge. I'd even say the last mission of the rift sigil event is a bigger challenge than the sortie defense.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

6 hours ago, EpicBred said:

We will probably have to wait for at least another year to get that endgame, which might not even be endgame.

Games usually get progressively harder, so the hardest stuff is at the end of the game, where the player should have maxed all his stuff and gear. Thats why its called endgame. In warframe we dont have difficult content for the maxed players, thats why were calling for "proper" endgame.

No i didnt. I said i want to be able to use my builds without feeling like i wasted my time.

BTW im not brain dead, i still want to play the game. Spawning 20 enemies, killing them and respawning them again isnt playing the game.

You have a really weird view on those who are asking for a challenge. Im not going like "ok, ive tested that my builds would theoretically reck high level enemies that i dont actually meet when playing normally, so im satisfied with them. Now i can test my skill in a completely seperate minigame where my build doesnt have any effect."

I already said in my reply that there isn't a real endgame needed for Warframe yet because the game doesn't "end".  We've reached the current end of the currently available "chapters", if you will, but there is more coming, likely higher level enemies, and so on.  People are calling for it as if DE isn't already working on it.  It's the equivalent to me of kids in the backseat of the car "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" AS the parent is driving to the destination.  Patience, we'll get there.

And if you can now one-shot what you formerly needed to hit many times to kill, I'd say you didn't waste your time.  If you had fun along the way, then you didn't waste your time.  If you played the game you love to play, then you didn't waste your time.

My reply regarding Simulacrum was simply to point out there ARE places to -test- your build.  As for places you need it?  Well, I think you're missing the point of the I'm-a-demigod-ninja-space wizard that is Warframe. 😕   We ARE OP.  That's what we've been working towards.  If they set a ceiling so high that our top-tier stuff took 20 minutes to kill it, then we'd be complaining it's too much.  Want proof?  Look at Eidolons when they came out.  Look at recent nerfs to enemies like Scramblers.  Look at so many things DE has toned back because people complained about it being "too much".   Truth be told, there's a ton of people on both sides of this issue, and DE can't please 'em all.  The community really needs to either accept what it wants from the game, or they need to accept that it isn't their game, it's DE's, and that sometimes we just aren't satisfied and that's okay...it doesn't mean the thing in question needs to change to suit us.

As for Conclave, yes, I'm serious.   People have mentioned a New Game +  here.....so, with Conclave, you're starting over with new/no mods, your enemies are completely sentient and not AI, it's much more competitive and skill matters far more than in the regular game.  I'm not usually a fan of PvP, but I have to admit that sounds like a good challenge for players who feel the enemies in PvE are "too easy".   You can still use your frames and weapons you've gathered, just your mods will be different, so no you can't use broken builds yet but...I mean, do you want a challenge or do you just want a bullet sponge so you can watch pretty red crits all day?

*shrugs*

[angias]

The more i see replies in this thread the more i think we need damage 3.0

Endgame is meaningless with infinite Power.

Edited August 12, 2018 by angias

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

50 minutes ago, angias said:

The more i see replies in this thread the more i think we need damage 3.0

Endgame is meaningless with infinite Power.

Basically, yes.

[EpicBred]

Am 12.8.2018 um 17:41 schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

I already said in my reply that there isn't a real endgame needed for Warframe yet because the game doesn't "end".  We've reached the current end of the currently available "chapters", if you will, but there is more coming, likely higher level enemies, and so on.  People are calling for it as if DE isn't already working on it.  It's the equivalent to me of kids in the backseat of the car "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" AS the parent is driving to the destination.  Patience, we'll get there.

The game wont end until another 5 years probably, maybe more. This doesnt justify our power and that of the enemies we face being so drastically far apart.

Its more like your brother telling you "we are driving to disneyland!" and then shouting "HAHA, IN 5 YEARS" while your parents drove to your grannies birthday party.

Am 12.8.2018 um 17:41 schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

And if you can now one-shot what you formerly needed to hit many times to kill, I'd say you didn't waste your time.

I can one-shot what i could one-shot 2 years ago. Definately feels like i wasted my time.

Am 12.8.2018 um 17:41 schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

My reply regarding Simulacrum was simply to point out there ARE places to -test- your build.  As for places you need it?  Well, I think you're missing the point of the I'm-a-demigod-ninja-space wizard that is Warframe. 😕   We ARE OP.  That's what we've been working towards.  If they set a ceiling so high that our top-tier stuff took 20 minutes to kill it, then we'd be complaining it's too much

Youre over exaggerating. We shouldnt take 20 minutes to kill something, but we also shouldnt one shot everything. have you ever played a balanced game (which includes most games that are not warframe)? you dont feel very powerful if you kill something so weak that you dont consider it as a threat. i recommend borderlands 2 to you for the pve balance and how good it feels to work towards perfecting a build and it actually making a difference, and dark souls (1) for the feeling you get when beating something difficult.

Am 12.8.2018 um 17:41 schrieb (PS4)Taishin_Ishu:

As for Conclave, yes, I'm serious.   People have mentioned a New Game +  here.....so, with Conclave, you're starting over with new/no mods, your enemies are completely sentient and not AI, it's much more competitive and skill matters far more than in the regular game.  I'm not usually a fan of PvP, but I have to admit that sounds like a good challenge for players who feel the enemies in PvE are "too easy".   You can still use your frames and weapons you've gathered, just your mods will be different, so no you can't use broken builds yet but...I mean, do you want a challenge or do you just want a bullet sponge so you can watch pretty red crits all day?

are you sure you know what ng+ is? you KEEP the stuff you got in your first playthrough, and replay the game at a higher difficulty. you dont really use builds in conclave (which makes sense, you shouldnt outclass someone because of mods), its just a minigame, where you can unlock certain stuff for the actualy game (pve) and play ball with friends occasionally.

I want to meet a bullet sponge that easily kills me when i have lazy build and that i can reck in a second when i worked towards a good build and optimized my damage. again, no need to overexaggerate. taking my suggestion of "difficulty 3" with enemy levels tripled as an example would leave you with lvl 90 - 150 enemies in star chart missons and 300 in sorties (which were supposed to be really difficult!). absolutely doable, although youd probably want a team for sorties. and you can always go back to difficulty 1 or 2, youd just get less endo as a reward.