Sortie slowly becoming trivial

[GPrime96]

2 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

I think Eidolons in general are among the best pieces of content DE has EVER released. They are what the Trials should've been in the first place. In fact i would welcome a Trial-like version of the Eidolon fight, with a much much harder Eidolon you fight in teams of 8 in another arena. Like, what if it was in an asteroid belt against the Flydolon? Mix of ground and AW gameplay with the things that make Eidolons good, so multi stage fights, varied objectives, and a focus on active gameplay and high end team coordination. 

 

Railjack is coming so I wonder how that would be compare to Eidolons and if that Content is going to be like what you said but in a Corpus Style.

[Azamagon]

5 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

-snip-

Hah, look at my reply just before yours! We are of similar mind, I can tell.

Also, you have some very good ideas going there, I like it! 🙂

[Autongnosis]

il y a 1 minute, VPrime96 a dit :

Railjack is coming so I wonder how that would be compare to Eidolons and if that Content is going to be like what you said but in a Corpus Style.

I definitely hope it will be but it's still 4 person stuff. The good thing about Raids was that they were designed to be a challenge to 8 tennos with their frames, something this game could definitely use again. Get rid of the unnecessarily netcode taxing in-mission loading, and use the Eidolons as a paragon to desing active puzzles and sidefights instead of passielve ones. 

That said railjack is possibly the one thing I'm most hyped about. It looks #*!%ing awesome and i can't wait to get my hands on it. I have a friend that has 3 PCs where we do LAN parties with my friends (which are also clanmates) and that would be #*!%ing awesome 😄

[Autongnosis]

il y a 12 minutes, Azamagon a dit :

Hah, look at my reply just before yours! We are of similar mind, I can tell.

Also, you have some very good ideas going there, I like it! 🙂

Tbh i think it warrants a topic of its own because we're basically highjacking this one xD

[AnonumusSoldier]

On 2018-07-29 at 10:33 PM, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Conversely, perhaps you believe Sorties "trivial" because you have gear that is more than adequate, along with skills that have been polished over hundreds of hours?

Yes, harder content would be fun.  Yes, they are bringing it.  It takes time....but again, DE has to serve the new players, which make up the vast majority, first and foremost.

Look, I'm an entertainer.  I run an entertainment business, it's what I do for a living.  When I go to one of my weekly gigs, and the regulars show up....they aren't the first ones I perform for.  I of course show them gratitude and respect for coming, and I do make sure I get around to them, but my goal is to GROW as a business.  Catering to the same people every time does nothing to include/invite new people into that exclusive group.  And like it or not, the truth is, even my "regulars" will leave, eventually.  They show up often, sure, but they're not as likely to re-re-rebook me as a NEW client is to book me for the first time.  Repeat customers are important, absolutely, but so is new customer acquisition to replace those that either leave or slow down the frequency of their purchases.

I say this because, like my regulars, I keep seeing people throw around how "Well, we're "vets"" and "We've been here forever supporting DE".   But, I gotta say, market research supports the data that new players are more likely to dive in and buy plat than those who have been around awhile and just trade for plat, etc.  It's just the truth.  In other words,  endgame is less of a concern than early game, because more players are going to be dealing with the latter than the former.

DE has said they want harder stuff, but like i said...just a matter of time at this point.

I am fully aware of the fact that a game developer needs to cater to both sides of the spectrum of gamers, I am also fully aware of the fact that new players are more likely to drop in some cash early in the beginning no matter what thier lifespan in the game is, and if you have 200 new players each month dropping in 20 bucks, you are going to get more money then the 100 vets buying Prime Access to support the game every 3 months. Every game out there with a microtransaction system is set up that way. HOWEVER. a player that can not kill a level 40 enemy easily should not be tossed into\have access to a mission that is fighting a base level of 60-100 with combat restrictions/mission requirments. 1) This discourages the player from long time viability staying with the game as he finds difficulty in the game and dosent know why/how to fix it 2)Creates a drag on the rest of the team, ruining the multiplayer experience and perpetuating the hermit mentality of the player base. I have no problem helping other players or even carrying them, but every day when i run sorties and 2 of the 3 other team mates are under mr8 and die within 5 feet of spawn, it gets aggrevating.   As a 5 year vet, i have watched DE do this time and time again, continually pandering to new players and whatever will drag them in. Giving away what was once exclusive, hard earned event rewards, dumbing down mechanics, making rare things common. The upcoming melee 3.0 rework is just another symptom of that, trading our long standing melee system, nerfing it into the ground in favor of flashy attacks for early game, and then do failed attempts at end game content that gets trivialized as new players complain they cant participate. Onslaught was supposed to be "endless", and is currently our closest endgame, but we cant even enjoy it because we eventually get forced out. Kingpin system, hailed as "endgame for clans" has been spoken only in whispers for over a year. 

 

Bottom line, Warframe is a great game. However, DE keeps saying they havent forgotten about thier vets, but thier actions dont show it. They produce quality updates aimed at dragging in new players, and throw the vets under the bus with constant nerfs/reworks aimed at making the game easier for the new player, that while we adapt to them, still tick us off. While in the short term, dragging in new players may be beneficial to thier bottom dollar, eventually you will alienate your base that promotes the game to those new players, and helps them adjust to the game and stay longer then the first week of spending money.

[KargorX]

On 2018-07-29 at 8:17 PM, angias said:

What i mean is that casual will find it trivial because they can brute force it with mid-tier build.

Talk about yourself. With the enemy levels displayed on Navigation, additional difficulty modifiers, and bosses -- I'm not even considering trying this. These are waaaaaaay out of my league, I'd need NASA to even see the door.

 

On 2018-07-29 at 11:02 PM, (PS4)vidare said:

Sorties could be so much more, but some game modes don't really get harder, like spy and rescue. Those missions don't get harder by raising enemy level or sniper only. 

I haven't even played a "sortie" and even I know that's just wrong.

For both mission types, you need to GET there first. You know, the trash mobs on the way that start getting real difficult at level 30-40, and they are level 100 now?

For Spy missions, T3 seems to be more challenging than T2 already. I'm tripping alarms way more often, possibly because enemies see better than they used to. I can't imagine a level 100 Spy mission would just say the same as even a T3.

For Rescue missions, I seem to remember reading that the kill timer is started right away. While this means I don't have to try to avoid being seen, it also means I have to fight level 100 dudes right away, and I'm pretty sure they also upscale the wardens accordingly.... and those are already beefy even on normal levels.

>>>> Defense is way to easy cause we can just revive the dude.

Really? That must be a new game mode then. All the Defenses I've ever seen just go "game over" when the thing is destroyed. Considering the difficulty I had on Aten (after restarting it to get rid of Vor), which is "only" level 40-45, a level 100 would be very short.

Instead of adding more high level trash, they should consider making the game more interesting for people that don't already have all the uber-gear to one-shot level 500000 bosses  Go play your Elite Sanctuary -- it has "Elite" in the name, so all us noobs won't be there -- or whatever you guys do when you're not complaining about the game being too easy. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by KargorX

[(PSN)vidare]

9 minutes ago, KargorX said:

Talk about yourself. With the enemy levels displayed on Navigation, additional difficulty modifiers, and bosses -- I'm not even considering trying this. These are waaaaaaay out of my league, I'd need NASA to even see the door.

 

I haven't even played a "sortie" and even I know that's just wrong.

For both mission types, you need to GET there first. You know, the trash mobs on the way that start getting real difficult at level 30-40, and they are level 100 now?

For Spy missions, T3 seems to be more challenging than T2 already. I'm tripping alarms way more often, possibly because enemies see better than they used to. I can't imagine a level 100 Spy mission would just say the same as even a T3.

For Rescue missions, I seem to remember reading that the kill timer is started right away. While this means I don't have to try to avoid being seen, it also means I have to fight level 100 dudes right away, and I'm pretty sure they also upscale the wardens accordingly.... and those are already beefy even on normal levels.

>>>> Defense is way to easy cause we can just revive the dude.

Really? That must be a new game mode then. All the Defenses I've ever seen just go "game over" when the thing is destroyed. Considering the difficulty I had on Aten (after restarting it to get rid of Vor), which is "only" level 40-45, a level 100 would be very short.

Instead of adding more high level trash, they should consider making the game more interesting for people that don't already have all the uber-gear to one-shot level 500000 bosses  Go play your Elite Sanctuary -- it has "Elite" in the name, so all us noobs won't be there -- or whatever you guys do when you've not complaining about the game being too easy. 

Not sure why you get seen more often or trip more alarms, but for me a lvl 5 and lvl 100 spy is just the same with a Loki. 

Rescues, you really never have to kill anything in those missions, CC or stealth and just blaze through any of them.

Sortie defense is not a pod you defend, it's one of those guys you rescue in a rescue mission. He walks around and you defend him.

[angias]

Il y a 2 heures, KargorX a dit :

consider making the game more interesting for people that don't already have all the uber-gear to one-shot level 500000 bosses.

Uber-gear....i do sortie with a mk1-braton that does 4400 dps.

When i talk about Casual i speak about long term casual, those with decent loadout but don't invest to reach higuer tier.(There is no need for it)

Mid-tier build are those with few maxed mod and using 5/6/7 mod slot.

The higu tier use all slot to increase dps/efficiency by +25-50%

Elite tier is either optimised and or broken going has far has -40% to +200%.

RAW damage is good but utility and cc make quite the difference, but it's better to have healty mix of them, but the best is to create your own gameplay has long has you can effectively use it.

When i'm mvp i rarely do above 50% of the damage (for some build it's almost garante).

On average me with my elite build has a dps potential 200% higuer.

On average Casual build does between 6k and 15k dps, the mk1-braton is weaker than that yet i can do sortie with it.

So if you are 4 with weaponry that does more dps, it is no exageration that you can do it.

Brute forcing it doesn't mean (at all) that you'll breeze through it, it mean that through sheer perseverance (without improvement or optimisation) you will do it.(there are many exception but for the most part it's the case)

Edited August 2, 2018 by angias

[Minos2909]

Why not adding sorties 4,5 & 6 and another reward ?

[angias]

il y a 7 minutes, Minos2909 a dit :

Why not adding sorties 4,5 & 6 and another reward ?

Hu....never though of that.

Srsly tks man.

Not that other ideas were bad, this is just really easy to impliment and the addition of extra reward could make "everyone" happy.

Edited August 2, 2018 by angias

[Autongnosis]

il y a 21 minutes, Minos2909 a dit :

Why not adding sorties 4,5 & 6 and another reward ?

While that is nice, remember they are locked to 1/day and also they would become a long stretch of time to invest for anyone with a job... I mean I'm all for it, maybe release a higher tiered version with higher levels and maybe double modifiers which has moderately better drop chance for kuva and rivens at the expense of everything else, and make the two of them mutually exclusive. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Am 29.7.2018 um 23:24 schrieb Autongnosis:

Check Whitelight's review on that: 

  

Basically to avoid the 30+min video, which is admittedly very interesting I'll just paste the specific quite:

"[...] Warframe's idea of difficulty is just like every other MMO. Forget a well designed moveset, just bump up the level and chuck as many enemies at the player as the engine allows." 

That's very fitting.

Yes, quite depressingly so.

Even more spot-on: "Warframe at its worst encourages literally spending portions of your day with your brain on autopilot as you slave through non-content generated by a computer with just enough random generation to keep your brain tricked into thinking there's something new every mission because without the reshuffle you'd slip out of you chair and into a coma."

The part about the brain being on autopilot being the worst in my book... but why change things when the game's doing fine from a financial standpoint thanks to the alchemy of addiciton working...

[Autongnosis]

il y a 4 minutes, Kotsender_Quasimir a dit :

Yes, quite depressingly so.

Even more spot-on: "Warframe at its worst encourages literally spending portions of your day with your brain on autopilot as you slave through non-content generated by a computer with just enough random generation to keep your brain tricked into thinking there's something new every mission because without the reshuffle you'd slip out of you chair and into a coma."

The part about the brain being on autopilot being the worst in my book... but why change things when the game's doing fine from a financial standpoint thanks to the alchemy of addiciton working...

Tbh that's a discussion for another day but the video is inspiring, the guy imo does excellent critical reviews. 

Check out his other stuff, it's good. And he has a nice voice. 

The thing i liked the most about this specific review is that despite finding so many flaws, he still recognises the incredible strenghts of the game. Something reviewers generally tend to forget (reviews are very biased most of the time, as in either purely good with "false criticism" or purely bad with "false saving graces"). 

[Lakais]

On 2018-08-01 at 11:55 AM, Autongnosis said:

-snip-

This is why I have grown to think that the entire design choice of having level scaling enemies was not the best one to take. I understand why it was made, it's a quick and easy way to create initial "difficulty" born out of the fact that Warframe was an unknown, unproven shot in the dark running on a budget. But now... the scaling issues have piled up. Not just enemy and ability. But most importantly, mods. 

Basically, the community at large lacks a solid, universally accepted "baseline" around which balance choices are made. So the comfortable upper limit of a meta build is taken for this "standard" to measure things to. Lvl 100 Corrupted Bombards, for example. But a lower baseline could be damn near anything, in the current system it's basically be choosing a single, common enemy at a defined level. This would have to be something relatively weak but not entirely single digits. Basically a clear yard stick to what you can essentially "backwards tweak" any ability and weapon so without mods you can kill it with reasonable but still heavy effort and when modded up in a common sense build would be very effective but not godlike. From that you can determine when applying mods and buffs if that weapon is too powerful or too weak for it's tier. Essentially it'd help create a clearer idea of both the lower and the upper limit of player power. 

This would also help DE keep tabs on what is and isn't an exploit. Because then they'd have something to put hard numbers to rather then using vague terms like "Lethal Damage". Which is basically just a switch flip on the entire level scaling system that I think if DE would ever want to really get a handle on scaling, would phase out in favor of static enemy stats but more distinct and increasingly more powerful enemy types. Imparting challenge and difficulty not through a level based multiplier to stats but through the make up and numbers of enemies thrown at us. 

[(XBOX)zecuse]

Well, Limbo/Wukong/(Loki/Ash/Ivara) make any mission trivial to the point that you can ignore everything but the objective. The only thing that really disrupts this are Nullifiers, of which the Grineer have none, the Corrupted might spawn them, and the Corpus might spawn a few every wave.

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-07-31 at 4:53 PM, Flandyrll said:

It goes in circles because the solution is not achievable. Saying "make it harder" doesn't mean anything. Almost every idea of "make it harder" will become the next Sortie in a few weeks. This is a problem not worth solving at this current stage because even if you managed to solve it now, you will need to solve it again every other month.

If you got a magical solution beyond "difficulty++;" that doesn't infringe on player's capabilities, lets hear it. Else, it's either going to receive massive blow back from people, it's going to be a temporarily solution that loops into the exact same problem in a month, or just a pointless and ineffective solution.

I mean there's a solution out there, choose one of the many that any other game uses for end-game.  How is this even a claim that it would be impossible, just doesn't make sense.

I'm not asking to necessarily make any existing content harder than it already is, but there needs to be content that is challenging for those with higher-end gear, that also has incentive to complete more than once per day.  My point I guess, once you get a few decent weapons and frames with a potato and a few formas, the game is over from a difficulty standpoint.  The challenge becomes collecting and completing objectives which require repetition, not strategy or skill.  This is a key characteristic of this game that has become worse over the last 3 years.  Originally Warframe had these sorts of systems, although not great, there was still reason to run things like infinite survivals.

The problem arguing this with someone who is currently content with the state of game content, is you're biased because you're already satisfied.  Others are not satisfied.  Please don't point us to the door either.  I already don't play much, I lurk these forums awaiting for the day of prophecy where we may reach the promise land.  Someone asks for more difficult content and they get their throats ripped out.  The resistance of a vocal minority can be tragic.

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-07-31 at 4:53 PM, Flandyrll said:

It goes in circles because the solution is not achievable. Saying "make it harder" doesn't mean anything. Almost every idea of "make it harder" will become the next Sortie in a few weeks. This is a problem not worth solving at this current stage because even if you managed to solve it now, you will need to solve it again every other month.

If you got a magical solution beyond "difficulty++;" that doesn't infringe on player's capabilities, lets hear it. Else, it's either going to receive massive blow back from people, it's going to be a temporarily solution that loops into the exact same problem in a month, or just a pointless and ineffective solution.

There's a lot of titles out there in the MMO world that have decent and even good end game solutions, you could use any of these as examples.  Simplest scenario would be new content of almost any type that's a difficulty++ like you said.  The problem now is while there are some hard difficulty modes, there's not much incentive to complete them, or at least not more than once per day.  I want to be able to log on and have a couple hours worth of things to run, and at least feel like I'm being rewarded for it.  Obviously the reward also comes from fun of playing the game, but if we were to rely on that argument, you could use it to justify not having much of any content in the game at all.

 

The game used to sort of have a few things that worked this way, infinite survivals comes to mind (there were rewards back then people wanted, so was easy to find squads for).  But about 2-3 years ago they slowly started making changes and now there's really nothing comparable, even if it wasn't great back then.

A lot of us are just waiting for the day foretold in prophecy where we might reach the promise land.  It seems whenever someone asks for more difficult content, they are immediately tar & feathered by a vocal minority of people who are already totally pleased with existing content.  If you're satisfied, that's great.  Please don't burn us down in the process, end game content won't ruin your experience so why hate on ours?

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-07-31 at 4:53 PM, Flandyrll said:

It goes in circles because the solution is not achievable. Saying "make it harder" doesn't mean anything. Almost every idea of "make it harder" will become the next Sortie in a few weeks. This is a problem not worth solving at this current stage because even if you managed to solve it now, you will need to solve it again every other month.

If you got a magical solution beyond "difficulty++;" that doesn't infringe on player's capabilities, lets hear it. Else, it's either going to receive massive blow back from people, it's going to be a temporarily solution that loops into the exact same problem in a month, or just a pointless and ineffective solution.

There's a lot of titles out there in the MMO world that have decent and even good end game solutions, you could use any of these as examples.  Simplest scenario would be new content of almost any type that's a difficulty++ like you said.  The problem now is while there are some hard difficulty modes, there's not much incentive to complete them, or at least not more than once per day.  I want to be able to log on and have a couple hours worth of things to run, and at least feel like I'm being rewarded for it.  Obviously the reward also comes from fun of playing the game, but if we were to rely on that argument, you could use it to justify not having much of any content in the game at all.

 

The game used to sort of have a few things that worked this way, infinite survivals comes to mind (there were rewards back then people wanted, so was easy to find squads for).  But about 2-3 years ago they slowly started making changes and now there's really nothing comparable, even if it wasn't great back then.

A lot of us are just waiting for the day foretold in prophecy where we might reach the promise land.  It seems whenever someone asks for more difficult content, they are immediately tar & feathered by a vocal minority of people who are already totally pleased with existing content.  If you're satisfied, that's great.  Please don't burn us down in the process, end game content won't ruin your experience so why hate on ours?

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-07-31 at 4:53 PM, Flandyrll said:

It goes in circles because the solution is not achievable. Saying "make it harder" doesn't mean anything. Almost every idea of "make it harder" will become the next Sortie in a few weeks. This is a problem not worth solving at this current stage because even if you managed to solve it now, you will need to solve it again every other month.

If you got a magical solution beyond "difficulty++;" that doesn't infringe on player's capabilities, lets hear it. Else, it's either going to receive massive blow back from people, it's going to be a temporarily solution that loops into the exact same problem in a month, or just a pointless and ineffective solution.

There's a lot of titles out there in the MMO world that have decent and even good end game solutions, you could use any of these as examples.  Simplest scenario would be new content of almost any type that's a difficulty++ like you said.  The problem now is while there are some hard difficulty modes, there's not much incentive to complete them, or at least not more than once per day.  I want to be able to log on and have a couple hours worth of things to run, and at least feel like I'm being rewarded for it.  Obviously the reward also comes from fun of playing the game, but if we were to rely on that argument, you could use it to justify not having much of any content in the game at all.

 

The game used to sort of have a few things that worked this way, infinite survivals comes to mind (there were rewards back then people wanted, so was easy to find squads for).  But about 2-3 years ago they slowly started making changes and now there's really nothing comparable, even if it wasn't great back then.

A lot of us are just waiting for the day foretold in prophecy where we might reach the promise land.  It seems whenever someone asks for more difficult content, they are immediately tar & feathered by a vocal minority of people who are already totally pleased with existing content.  If you're satisfied, that's great.  Please don't burn us down in the process, end game content won't ruin your experience so why hate on ours?

[RX-3DR]

38 minutes ago, GunRunnerX said:

There's a lot of titles out there in the MMO world that have decent and even good end game solutions, you could use any of these as examples.  Simplest scenario would be new content of almost any type that's a difficulty++ like you said.  The problem now is while there are some hard difficulty modes, there's not much incentive to complete them, or at least not more than once per day.  I want to be able to log on and have a couple hours worth of things to run, and at least feel like I'm being rewarded for it.  Obviously the reward also comes from fun of playing the game, but if we were to rely on that argument, you could use it to justify not having much of any content in the game at all.

 

The game used to sort of have a few things that worked this way, infinite survivals comes to mind (there were rewards back then people wanted, so was easy to find squads for).  But about 2-3 years ago they slowly started making changes and now there's really nothing comparable, even if it wasn't great back then.

A lot of us are just waiting for the day foretold in prophecy where we might reach the promise land.  It seems whenever someone asks for more difficult content, they are immediately tar & feathered by a vocal minority of people who are already totally pleased with existing content.  If you're satisfied, that's great.  Please don't burn us down in the process, end game content won't ruin your experience so why hate on ours?

Thank you for highlighting my point further as to why we should just leave the problem be. That line is the exact problem. Saying that the difficulty needs to be increased has about as much value as saying "give us something to do". What exactly is this something, and what happens when that something is something you don't like? Should we have 50% of enemies beyond a certain point be immune to all Warframe abilities because it is "difficult"? Difficulty is not a value you can just increase or decrease by pressing buttons.

And no, cutting and pasting some other game's end game will not necessarily solve the problem. If you want to address the problem of difficulty, it has to be in relation to what is available to players. In the case of other games, it might be fine, but in Warframe where a single button can disable the entire map indefinitely, having whatever end game dungeon idea is not going to be worth anything in itself.

Lastly, the problem with rewarding players for difficult content is always a really frustrating problem. If you give rewards too valuable, they will push up the ceiling, making your "end-game content" now too easy, resulting in the loop. Make the rewards too poor, and people complain about how the reward for ESO shouldn't be Peculiar mods but more ways to cheese the game.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Flandyrll

[Autongnosis]

il y a une heure, Flandyrll a dit :

Lastly, the problem with rewarding players for difficult content is always a really frustrating problem. If you give rewards too valuable, they will push up the ceiling, making your "end-game content" now too easy, resulting in the loop. Make the rewards too poor, and people complain about how the reward for ESO shouldn't be Peculiar mods but more ways to cheese the game.

May i be a bit crass? Who the #*!% cares.

ESO was a stroke of genius who got rammed by an idiot's car midway. 

Make ESO work with a capped efficiency drain at what we have now at wave 8 and give it Sortie modifiers, 1/wave from wave 1 to 8 and 2/w for waves 9+. Give it stashes of sink drops (radiant relics are good, so is focus, but Kuva should also be in there) that even veterans can use. And you've got a dungeon crawler mode that is done Warframe style and is also incredibly fun and challenging. And you also stop Saryn and Volt from being the end be all of ESO no #*!%s given.

Make the second Sortie set happen, on steroids. Like triple the levels and use two modifiers at once, and get a guaranteed boss fight as sortie 6 as a forced mission type. 

And now you've got weeklies and dailies.

And then use TAs as filler content, but imo what happened with Phoenix Intercept Escalation should happen every time. Ludicrous leveled stuff with heavy loadout restrictions. That was HARD man. 

[AnonumusSoldier]

4 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

May i be a bit crass? Who the #*!% cares.

ESO was a stroke of genius who got rammed by an idiot's car midway. 

Make ESO work with a capped efficiency drain at what we have now at wave 8 and give it Sortie modifiers, 1/wave from wave 1 to 8 and 2/w for waves 9+. Give it stashes of sink drops (radiant relics are good, so is focus, but Kuva should also be in there) that even veterans can use. And you've got a dungeon crawler mode that is done Warframe style and is also incredibly fun and challenging. And you also stop Saryn and Volt from being the end be all of ESO no #*!%s given.

Make the second Sortie set happen, on steroids. Like triple the levels and use two modifiers at once, and get a guaranteed boss fight as sortie 6 as a forced mission type. 

And now you've got weeklies and dailies.

And then use TAs as filler content, but imo what happened with Phoenix Intercept Escalation should happen every time. Ludicrous leveled stuff with heavy loadout restrictions. That was HARD man. 

ill link to a rough idea i had 2 years ago https://forums.warframe.com/topic/698207-endgame-conceptsolar-map-expansion/ this is what i had THOUGHT that EOS was going to be from the original concept showcased on the devstreams, and then like you said it got rammed by an idiot car. Either way its obvious DE dosent care about endgame, only about short term playability and new player attraction for a week of fresh cashflow. its ok im not bitter. much.

 

and yes, Phoenix Intercept, those were the days man.

 

[RX-3DR]

5 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

May i be a bit crass? Who the #*!% cares.

ESO was a stroke of genius who got rammed by an idiot's car midway. 

Make ESO work with a capped efficiency drain at what we have now at wave 8 and give it Sortie modifiers, 1/wave from wave 1 to 8 and 2/w for waves 9+. Give it stashes of sink drops (radiant relics are good, so is focus, but Kuva should also be in there) that even veterans can use. And you've got a dungeon crawler mode that is done Warframe style and is also incredibly fun and challenging. And you also stop Saryn and Volt from being the end be all of ESO no #*!%s given.

Make the second Sortie set happen, on steroids. Like triple the levels and use two modifiers at once, and get a guaranteed boss fight as sortie 6 as a forced mission type. 

And now you've got weeklies and dailies.

And then use TAs as filler content, but imo what happened with Phoenix Intercept Escalation should happen every time. Ludicrous leveled stuff with heavy loadout restrictions. That was HARD man. 

First of all, how are you going to stop people from playing the meta? This is the next part of the problem and that is finding a solution that doesn't infringe on players. The only way you can stop Saryn and Volt from just slamming through enemies is to put limitations on abilities such as Nullifiers. As said, would you be okay if the game just had half of all enemies are just immune to abilities? It may sound perfectly fine on the surface, but you are essentially creating a Eidolon situation where the new meta is to buff up your damage as much as possible while reducing damage you receive, essentially resulting in the same meta as Eidolons when picking frames.

You also have to ask, would it actually make the game harder. I'd say it doesn't. It certainly isn't easier, but if the meta were to shift to having a Trinity constantly using Blessing for 75% damage reduction, it would still be easy. The second set of Sorties would not accomplish anything on its own. Take for instance, no matter what level and what the stage conditions are, a Limbo can and will remove all difficulty of a Mobile Defense mission with Cataclysm, likewise, full map disables would still ruin most mission types. You're just creating cheese-trick traps where the game is still just as easy with certain set ups, and frustrating to play without because a single bullet would down even the heavier frames.

Loadout restrictions are generally a terrible way to handle this because odds are, a majority of players would be quite unhappy over it. Exactly what are you going to restrict is also the problem. Once again, unless you're addressing the specific mechanic that breaks the difficulty curve, it would just impact people without the equipment within the restrictions. Archwings exist as a bit of a useful case study on the subject since it technically does this by introducing a completely separate set of tools. Ultimately, you're put between a rock and a hard place and there is simply no satisfying solution if you want to achieve variety and choice at the same time.

[Jax_Cavalera]

The difficulty is commensurate with the drop chance on rewards limited to 1 per day.

If difficulty increased exponentially per re-run in same day and u got a reward each full completion. I would be down for that.

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 3 heures, Flandyrll a dit :

1) First of all, how are you going to stop people from playing the meta? This is the next part of the problem and that is finding a solution that doesn't infringe on players. 2) The only way you can stop Saryn and Volt from just slamming through enemies is to put limitations on abilities such as Nullifiers. 3) As said, would you be okay if the game just had half of all enemies are just immune to abilities? It may sound perfectly fine on the surface, but you are essentially creating a Eidolon situation where the new meta is to buff up your damage as much as possible while reducing damage you receive, essentially resulting in the same meta as Eidolons when picking frames.

4) You also have to ask, would it actually make the game harder. I'd say it doesn't. It certainly isn't easier, but if the meta were to shift to having a Trinity constantly using Blessing for 75% damage reduction, it would still be easy. The second set of Sorties would not accomplish anything on its own. 5) Take for instance, no matter what level and what the stage conditions are, a Limbo can and will remove all difficulty of a Mobile Defense mission with Cataclysm, likewise, full map disables would still ruin most mission types. 6) You're just creating cheese-trick traps where the game is still just as easy with certain set ups, and frustrating to play without because a single bullet would down even the heavier frames.

7) Loadout restrictions are generally a terrible way to handle this because odds are, a majority of players would be quite unhappy over it. Exactly what are you going to restrict is also the problem. Once again, unless you're addressing the specific mechanic that breaks the difficulty curve, it would just impact people without the equipment within the restrictions. Archwings exist as a bit of a useful case study on the subject since it technically does this by introducing a completely separate set of tools. 8) Ultimately, you're put between a rock and a hard place and there is simply no satisfying solution if you want to achieve variety and choice at the same time.

So I'm going to break this down because there is a lot here. 

Point 1 

I'm not. The point about having a weekly mission which has increasing enemy hardness and a killcount timer with modifiers that are varied but predictable, as in they stay the same throughout the mission, is not to kill meta or stop people from playing the meta. The objective is to provide an environment where you need to plan ahead and have an answer ready for the combination of modifiers and factions.

Point 2

For example, imagine an Eximus Stronghold + Elemental Enhancement conbination. Now your Volt is unable to damage any Alloy armoured enemy and your Saryin cannot deal damage through Proto shielding. That's a problem, you need a solution. 

And being a lottery of conditions it simply means there won't be only one answer. 

I like Saryn in ESO. I play her a ton. I'm not advocating something that kills her usefulness there. The problem is that now there is no reason not to have hee and no stage in which she's not steamrolling everything. 

Having such a system of dynamic modifiers would make planning for a loadout and a group comp much more meaningful. 

Point 3

But that wasn't what i meant at all, I'm not advocating for no-abilities or total nullifying scenarios. 

Also, I think Eidolon meta is way more interesting than any other current meta. There are a LOT more setups there. Lemme run you through frames that work:

• Volt as buffer
• Octavia as buffer
• Mesa as buffer and vomvalyst clearer
• Rhino as buffer
• Chroma as buffer
• Oberon as healer/proc remover/buffer
• Trinity as healer
• Harrow as healer/proc remover/buffer
• Titania as DPS
• Ember as buffer and vomvalyst clearer (yes, Ember)

There are a lot more combinations than your typical meta group.

Point 4

I think not. Imagine if Nightmare Sorties were to exist, and the enemies were lv 150-225-300 and each mission had a pool of 2 modifiers taken from both the Sortie pool and the Nightmare pool. And imagine Nightmare Sorties prevented usage of gear like ESO does. That would at least make you plan properly for the missions. And it would make the game harder.

Point 5

While Limbo can make it hard to have fun in any kind of defence, what if it was on energy reduction + energy vampire? Not much energy to cast Stasis now do you? If you wantto make them more interesting, make them loadout locked. As in, you start with one frame and weapon combination, you stick with that for the whole trio. That would be interesting and test your adaptability. 

Also again if you want to trivialise stuff you can do it at lv 50 and at lv 500 and nothing changes. But adding harder modifiers on top of harder enemies makes it harder to trivialise stuff, or at least makes it so that you have to rack your brain to come up with the best solution each time, which on its own would be a great thing. 

Point 6

That's not true and i don't know about your experience with lv 250+ content but with proper loadout setuos they are kot as harsh as you imagine them (or portray them) to be. 

And again, people who cheese cheese at any levels. I'd really like to have a place where i can test non braindead cheese stuff. If people want to cheese it mroe power to them, but a proper set of condition and missions would make it a lot harder to just sneeze your way through it with a random meta cheese setup you copy pasted from a youtube video. 

Point 7

Loadout restrictions were meant only for Tactical Alert Escalation type events, not for the rest of the discussion. That said in an imaginary word where Nightmare Sortie exist, something that locks into the choice of frame and weapons you make at the beginning (only for those 3 sorties mind) would be a good way to have you properly plan ahead and think about what to bring and what to do. Which is the thing that matters the most imo. 

Point 8

While i agree that pleasing EVERYONE is impossible, there are imo many ways to please the majority of people.