Oberon, The Other Nerf'd Meat

[PJMcKay]

Why does his heal stop after max health instead x time?  As well, why when using the heal if you get beat down you now stay down instead of recover because the health was still regenerating?   2 big changes that have nerfed him into a waste of a frame.

[Darkmoone1]

Why does his heal stop after max health instead x time?  As well, why when using the heal if you get beat down you now stay down instead of recover because the health was still regenerating?   2 big changes that have nerfed him into a waste of a frame.

I thought the first thing was always the case with Oberon and wasn't a change. 

 

The second thing was clearly a bug with Oberon and even though people pleaded to DE about keeping it....bugs are bugs.

[Archwizard]

Well of Life heals players for up to 400 at max rank (before Power Strength)- assuming they can deal out 890 damage in under 12 seconds. It also takes an enemy out of the fight for that period.

Blessing instantly heals players for 99% of their maximum health (which could be in the thousands!) at Rank 0. It also gives them a period of invulnerability.

Renewal heals players for... 200. And it does it slowly; your consolation for upgrading it is doing so less slowly. Not to mention the travel time.

 

Here's the thing about Renewal: it costs 75 energy, but it's not 75% as effective as Blessing- numerically speaking, it's barely half as effective as Well of Life for three times the energy cost, and this is before you get into what their effective costs mean for Trinity and Oberon.

 

The sad thing is, the removal of Renewal's ability to revive players removed half of Oberon's utility; now he's stuck with the blandest, weakest healing ability in the game, a very costly spot-heal that simply doesn't scale. No, it would never be as good as Blessing's invulnerability, but the revival mechanic "bug" put special emphasis on a healing spell that kept you alive- which almost made it worth its cost, barring its short duration.

You could try giving Renewal more utility to make up for how weak it is now, like a damage-reduction buff or increased health cap while active but- oh wait! It disperses as soon as you hit health cap and scales inversely with power duration! So much for the very concept of heal-over-time skills.

 

But it's not a heal-over-time skill, is it? It's a weak burst heal that's staggered in at least three ways, in spite of its high cost. Having travel time and a health-capping burst effect would've been enough. Having travel time and a duration-boosted heal-over-time effect, maybe even with a survival buff, would've been enough. Having an infinite-range instant buff with a staggered heal would have been enough. But no.

 

I really hoped that the ranged-revival effect wasn't a bug, that it was intentional, because it gave Oberon something unique in spite of his otherwise fairly bland skillset. Scott advertised Oberon as having an ability that increases team survivability- and I really hoped he didn't mean Reckoning.

[ThePresident777]

Well of Life heals players for up to 400 at max rank (before Power Strength)- assuming they can deal out 890 damage in under 12 seconds. It also takes an enemy out of the fight for that period.

Blessing instantly heals players for 99% of their maximum health (which could be in the thousands!) at Rank 0. It also gives them a period of invulnerability.

Renewal heals players for... 200. And it does it slowly; your consolation for upgrading it is doing so less slowly. Not to mention the travel time.

 

Here's the thing about Renewal: it costs 75 energy, but it's not 75% as effective as Blessing- numerically speaking, it's barely half as effective as Well of Life for three times the energy cost, and this is before you get into what their effective costs mean for Trinity and Oberon.

 

The sad thing is, the removal of Renewal's ability to revive players removed half of Oberon's utility; now he's stuck with the blandest, weakest healing ability in the game, a very costly spot-heal that simply doesn't scale. No, it would never be as good as Blessing's invulnerability, but the revival mechanic "bug" put special emphasis on a healing spell that kept you alive- which almost made it worth its cost, barring its short duration.

You could try giving Renewal more utility to make up for how weak it is now, like a damage-reduction buff or increased health cap while active but- oh wait! It disperses as soon as you hit health cap and scales inversely with power duration! So much for the very concept of heal-over-time skills.

 

But it's not a heal-over-time skill, is it? It's a weak burst heal that's staggered in at least three ways, in spite of its high cost. Having travel time and a health-capping burst effect would've been enough. Having travel time and a duration-boosted heal-over-time effect, maybe even with a survival buff, would've been enough. Having an infinite-range instant buff with a staggered heal would have been enough. But no.

 

I really hoped that the ranged-revival effect wasn't a bug, that it was intentional, because it gave Oberon something unique in spite of his otherwise fairly bland skillset. Scott advertised Oberon as having an ability that increases team survivability- and I really hoped he didn't mean Reckoning.

 

Why couldn't DE do this analysis before they released Oberon?

[Marthrym]

I didn't know Renewal had lost its ability to "revive" downed players before reading this thread...

 

So basically Obi's 3 is now totally useless? Just like all the damage abilities of other frames when enemies reach a certain level? Well paint me surprised, I would have NEVER seen that one coming...

 

The best part is, this was apparently UNINTENDED. So the ONLY thing about this ability had that was actually useful, albeit situationally, wasn't even created on purpose! And they thought that "fixing" it was the right thing to do? I don't know if I should laugh to tears or be terrified by what happened here...

 

Back to Trinity it is, until they break her too.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Marthrym

[Dalu__Ka]

I didn't know Renewal had lost its ability to "revive" downed players before reading this thread...

 

So basically Obi's 3 is now totally useless? Just like all the damage abilities of other frames when enemies reach a certain level? Well paint me surprised, I would have NEVER seen that one coming...

 

The best part is, this was apparently UNINTENDED. So the ONLY thing about this ability had that was actually useful, albeit situationally, wasn't even created on purpose! And they thought that "fixing" it was the right thing to do? I don't know if I should laugh to tears or be terrified by what happened here...

 

Back to Trinity it is, until they break her too.

Rofl.

[vasRayya]

Whine more, people. He works fine, 3 and 4 especially. If you don't like him, use trinity. 

[ThePresident777]

Whine more, people. He works fine, 3 and 4 especially. If you don't like him, use trinity. 

 

IF you complain about someone elses favorite warframe because it is more powerful than your favorite Warframe they could also tell you to whine more, their favorite warframe is fine, use something else.

[xenapan]

Why couldn't DE do this analysis before they released Oberon?

 

Well of Life heals players for up to 400 at max rank (before Power Strength)- assuming they can deal out 890 damage in under 12 seconds. It also takes an enemy out of the fight for that period.

Blessing instantly heals players for 99% of their maximum health (which could be in the thousands!) at Rank 0. It also gives them a period of invulnerability.

Renewal heals players for... 200. And it does it slowly; your consolation for upgrading it is doing so less slowly. Not to mention the travel time.

 

Here's the thing about Renewal: it costs 75 energy, but it's not 75% as effective as Blessing- numerically speaking, it's barely half as effective as Well of Life for three times the energy cost, and this is before you get into what their effective costs mean for Trinity and Oberon.

 

The sad thing is, the removal of Renewal's ability to revive players removed half of Oberon's utility; now he's stuck with the blandest, weakest healing ability in the game, a very costly spot-heal that simply doesn't scale. No, it would never be as good as Blessing's invulnerability, but the revival mechanic "bug" put special emphasis on a healing spell that kept you alive- which almost made it worth its cost, barring its short duration.

You could try giving Renewal more utility to make up for how weak it is now, like a damage-reduction buff or increased health cap while active but- oh wait! It disperses as soon as you hit health cap and scales inversely with power duration! So much for the very concept of heal-over-time skills.

 

But it's not a heal-over-time skill, is it? It's a weak burst heal that's staggered in at least three ways, in spite of its high cost. Having travel time and a health-capping burst effect would've been enough. Having travel time and a duration-boosted heal-over-time effect, maybe even with a survival buff, would've been enough. Having an infinite-range instant buff with a staggered heal would have been enough. But no.

 

I really hoped that the ranged-revival effect wasn't a bug, that it was intentional, because it gave Oberon something unique in spite of his otherwise fairly bland skillset. Scott advertised Oberon as having an ability that increases team survivability- and I really hoped he didn't mean Reckoning.

Not all frames are meant to be equally good at everything. Trinity ONLY has healing. Oberon has AOE burst, AOE DOT. 

You might as well complain why doesnt rhino have an energy restore skill. Or why ember has no shield.  Cause they are different frames. You can't look at skills in isolation from the frame. 

[Cyrionn]

Oberon nerfed meat ? Really ? I agree he is not in the scaling tier group of warframes, but he is one that has a high ceiling before being innefficient.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Cyrionn

[Dyspraxia]

Well the complaint really is... that at this point he doesn't do ANYTHING well. Most of the other frame 4(ultimate) skills are stronger, and his other skills had questionable utility to begin with.

 

The thing about trinity not having a burst is that she can just use link and kill stuff very efficiently like that, since that damage scales with whatever damage is incoming it works well even at higher lvls  (unlike oberon having to hit 4 many times to get some decent results)

[Cyrionn]

Well the complaint really is... that at this point he doesn't do ANYTHING well. Most of the other frame 4(ultimate) skills are stronger, and his other skills had questionable utility to begin with.

 

The thing about trinity not having a burst is that she can just use link and kill stuff very efficiently like that, since that damage scales with whatever damage is incoming it works well even at higher lvls  (unlike oberon having to hit 4 many times to get some decent results)

Ahem, we don't play the same frame I guess.

 

It is my main frame, I invested 5 forma on him and maxed my Blind Rage basically to finish his build, well nearly but my build is not the point here. What I mean is that once you really maxed his power strength, he deals a LOT of damage on top of applying a decent CC.

In comparison, Rhino's Stomp applies hard CC but with a maxed power strength build you will deal 1k8 only blast damage. Reckoning deals 2k8 radiation and impact, that's more than many 4 abilities around.

And let's not forget the health balls drop working wonders with Equilibrium.

On top of that the animation is fast, as fast as MPrime is, and spammable. In low-mid game he is a beast, I outdamaged many Novas, Embers, Saryn or whatever you think is a damage dealer.

 

The only thing that doesn't make Oberon a top tier frame is the lack of a scaling ability or hard CC that would stay relevant whatever the mobs you are facing.

[ThePresident777]

Not all frames are meant to be equally good at everything. Trinity ONLY has healing. Oberon has AOE burst, AOE DOT. 

You might as well complain why doesnt rhino have an energy restore skill. Or why ember has no shield.  Cause they are different frames. You can't look at skills in isolation from the frame. 

 

Good point.

[Thaumatos]

Why couldn't DE do this analysis before they released Oberon?

 

Because. =P

 

Not all frames are meant to be equally good at everything. Trinity ONLY has healing. Oberon has AOE burst, AOE DOT. 

You might as well complain why doesnt rhino have an energy restore skill. Or why ember has no shield.  Cause they are different frames. You can't look at skills in isolation from the frame. 

 

Except Ember did have a shield.  It was about the best (97%) shield in the game outside of Blessing's Invulnerability.  She wasn't meant to be a tank and they nerfed it.  People cried.  Then they removed it and replaced it.  People still cried and even more so.

 

The reason frame skills work the way they do isn't based on theme.  Its based on what DE decided to do with that theme at the time.  Hell Zephyr could have had an ultimate that summoned energy-birds to peck the eyes out of all surrounding enemies, but they didn't.  She could have had a skill that flew her up in the air, healed her, and immediately crashed her to the ground, but they didn't.  They went with what they wanted to because...well....they're developing the game and that's that.

 

Now feedback can definitely influence things, for sure, but no amount of feedback is going to get your Frost reverted to pre-U12 and left alone.

[ThePresident777]

Ahem, we don't play the same frame I guess.

 

It is my main frame, I invested 5 forma on him and maxed my Blind Rage basically to finish his build, well nearly but my build is not the point here. What I mean is that once you really maxed his power strength, he deals a LOT of damage on top of applying a decent CC.

In comparison, Rhino's Stomp applies hard CC but with a maxed power strength build you will deal 1k8 only blast damage. Reckoning deals 2k8 radiation and impact, that's more than many 4 abilities around.

And let's not forget the health balls drop working wonders with Equilibrium.

On top of that the animation is fast, as fast as MPrime is, and spammable. In low-mid game he is a beast, I outdamaged many Novas, Embers, Saryn or whatever you think is a damage dealer.

 

The only thing that doesn't make Oberon a top tier frame is the lack of a scaling ability or hard CC that would stay relevant whatever the mobs you are facing.

 

You have to factor into the analysis the radii of Reckoning and Rhino Stomp.  Reckoning has a 15 meter radius and Rhino Stomp has a 25 meter radius.  Let's say that each enemy occupies a square meter.  The area of a 15 meter radius circle is 707m^2.  The area of a 25 meter radius circle is 1963m^2.  So the total damage of each ability in it's area is 2k8*707=1980k for Reckoning and 1k8*1963=3534k for Rhino Stomp.

 

If 1k8 damage is enough to kill the enemy then Rhino Stomp is better because of the greater radius.  If 1k8 damage is not enough to kill the enemy, but, 2k8 damage is enough, then I'm not sure which is better.  You can't recast Rhino Stomp for up to 8 seconds if any of it's targets are still alive, and a target could be 25 meters away, under a rock.  In that time, Oberon might be able to fire off another Reckoning thereby doing more damage, killing more enemies.

 

What happens if 2.8k is not enough to kill enemies?  Which is better. more DPS in a smaller area or 8 seconds of suspension?  I'm not sure.  At that point, you're relying on your weapon more than your ult for damage.  If defense rather than offense is your bigger problem, then the 8 seconds of suspension could be your get away car.

Edited February 9, 2014 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

Except Ember did have a shield.  It was about the best (97%) shield in the game outside of Blessing's Invulnerability.  She wasn't meant to be a tank and they nerfed it.  People cried.  Then they removed it and replaced it.  People still cried and even more so.

 

The reason frame skills work the way they do isn't based on theme.  Its based on what DE decided to do with that theme at the time.  Hell Zephyr could have had an ultimate that summoned energy-birds to peck the eyes out of all surrounding enemies, but they didn't.  She could have had a skill that flew her up in the air, healed her, and immediately crashed her to the ground, but they didn't.  They went with what they wanted to because...well....they're developing the game and that's that.

 

Um, OK, and?

 

 

 

Now feedback can definitely influence things, for sure, but no amount of feedback is going to get your Frost reverted to pre-U12 and left alone.

 

You don't really know that.

[Cyrionn]

I agree Rhino Stomp is actually more usefull than Reckoning, that's a fact because hard CC doesn't need to scale for being relevant whatever the level of ennemies are. And this is why when you use a "Stomp Build" you just focus on range and efficiency, damage isn't needed. As I said, Oberon is not in the clan of the scaling warframes, Rhino is.

 

Now, when we talk about lvl =< 50 ennemies, Oberon is a great damage dealer.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Cyrionn

[Dyspraxia]

I know this topic is kinda way done, but I just want to state that almost every frame is a great damage dealer vs enemies below 50. I know people may argue that "I put X forma into it and look at how good it does" but really if you put 3 or more forma on any frame they'll start to ramp up pretty hard.

[Ketec]

damage fails too... radiatio nshould do 75% more to heavy grineer.. but with decently boosted  4, i could barely hurt lvl 40 grineer heavies -_-

[Dalu__Ka]

Not all frames are meant to be equally good at everything. Trinity ONLY has healing.

Funny, because Link is completely over powered, and makes trinity far superior to all other frames combined.

[fatpig84]

They should let his heal continue over time.....

Because it gave him a niche as a "second wind" character as long renewal is active.

 

Now he has no niche :/

[Varzy]

They really need to consider keeping the auto-revive, but beyond that Renewal needs a higher base heal (300 or 350, methinks) and rather than stopping when health is full, it could have health overflow. This could create some very interesting synergy with Rage, too. The inverse duration should remain, so you can mod for either quick health restores or a longer health buffer.

 

75 energy skills are supposed to be powerful but situational. Let's see it here!

[LukeAura]

Not all frames are meant to be equally good at everything. Trinity ONLY has healing. Oberon has AOE burst, AOE DOT. 

You might as well complain why doesnt rhino have an energy restore skill. Or why ember has no shield.  Cause they are different frames. You can't look at skills in isolation from the frame. 

Renewal's still out of balance then. 

It's more expensive and less effective than WoL. 

And since it's a team support ability don't forget to look at it in a team perspective, in which it has too few advantages over WoL or Blessing. 

Healing he is sorely and clearly outdone, damage he is outdone. CC he is outdone. 

He has no niche to provide to a team with. 

Renewal reviving actually gave him a purpose. 

So he's barely a solo frame, he has a nuke but everything else is rather meh without allies and completely outclassed and purposeless in a team. 

 

[Beas7ie]

Why are his arms so skinny?  He's supposed to be a tanky paladin like frame.  And his "main" melee is a huge frekkin mace.   He needs muscles. 

[CandyDragon]

They should probably rework renewal's travel time. Or look at its overall cost.

Heal should be % based.

If you insist on keeping its travel time.

Heal should also be % based in its speed of healing.:

High % health people receiving Smaller heals per sec, duration of heal is unchanged

Low % health people receiving a higher Heal per sec , duration of heal is unchanged

Cannot heal above 85-95% of player health.

Once heal cap is reached, player emits a small aoe heal

 

Only scaling this idea off of how ridiculous you can make Trinity's heal. But that's just my two cents on it.

 

 

Probably too much work honestly, low hanging fruit and all. 

 

The auto revive thing was silly. Cheating death isn't going to be an intended feature unless its a rare mod ;