Can We Please Get Rid Of Enemy Telepathy?[Enemy Alertness And Stealth]

[GhostSwordsman]

I'm getting tired of being seen by one enemy, and have that one enemy run straight for an alarm console(like a fool, because only an idiot turns their back to a Tenno, the smart ones shoot first), followed by me killing him before he even touches the thing, and then having 5 or more guys run into the tile knowing my exact location.

 

No sound, no alarms, no gun shots. Yet, here is a small battalion coming after me like I came in (like a wreaaaking baaall, sorry, couldn't resist) the room guns blazing.

 

Just played a syndicate spy mission. Went down an elevator, killed 2 drones and 2 moa's without being seen or heard. Find out that there is still a Tech in the tile so I approach him and he happens to spot me, but instead of shooting, or even saying anything(he literally had one reaction, and that was running for the alarms), he immediately turns around and runs into the little room he came out of to hit the alarm. I kill him before he even touches the console(melee kill, so no sound). However, when I exit the small room, I find that there are two crewman, an osprey, and two moa waiting for me, and they knew exactly where I was.

 

At the end of that mission as well, in the extraction tile, something similar happened. I came up behind a tech and a crewman, stealth kill the tech. While the animation was playing out, Wyrm decides it's a good idea to use his Crowd Dispersion(BAD IDEA), because there were two enemies near me. The tech is dead and the crewman is on the ground, so I kill him before he gets back up. Neither of them saw me they just died and got knocked over and died, yet the two crewman farther down the tile(outdoor corpus outpost extraction tile) who were definitely out of earshot and eyesight, were ready, or readying to shoot at me.

 

In both instances, none of the enemies were in any alerted state what so ever, and they were never put into that state because all my kills were silent. The way the enemy AI behaves right now when you're spotted by one enemy and manage to dispatch him before he reacts is frustrating, because the simple act of being seen can bring in the whole battalion. Literally being seen by one guy means that every enemy in that tile and the adjacent tiles and their mother's, uncle's, son's, cousin's, niece... twice removed... knows your exact location in the galaxy.

 

So, can we please get this fixed, so when an enemy sees us but is killed silently before he moves or says anything, any other enemies nearby(in the tile or in an adjacent tile) go about their business like nothings happened?

 

 

Edit: The hivemind like nature of the enemy AI gets even more frustrating when you end up with an alarm going off because a guy one tile over set it off. Again by silently killing one or two guys but being seen.(and neither of the enemies have a chance to react, futhering the silent kill) This phenomenon, doesn't seem to happen often though, in my experience, but nonetheless it's still frustrating to deal with on a stealth run.

Edited February 26, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[ZizWing]

Totally agree with this. Changing this mechanic will allow a less random stealth experience and give us more control (which you need in stealth) over when something happens.

Edited February 23, 2015 by zY_Spartan_Yz

[wolf96781]

Agreed, this is annoying for stealth runs

[TheErebus.]

I can swear I hear a grineer solider shout when they've spotted me.

[Tigersight]

Read the title.

 

+1

 

Read the post.

 

Enemy hivemind AI needs to be replaced with something that actually works.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Tigersight

[GhostSwordsman]

I can swear I hear a grineer solider shout when they've spotted me.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they make a small *gasp* noise. I'm more specifically talking about when the enemies only reaction is to turn and run for an alarm. He makes no sound and doesn't shoot, just turns his back so I can stab him. As when they shout, it makes sense for nearby enemies in the same room to become alerted to your presence.

 

Either way, other enemies should not know where you are if the enemy does not shout or shoot their weapon.

 

Edit: What's even worse is when an enemy turns and runs for an alarm, says something, and two guys come in the tile from the door on the opposite side of the room. Even though the enemy said something out loud, there is no way two guys on the other side of the room, behind a door, heard him.

Edited February 26, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[TheErebus.]

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they make a small *gasp* noise. I'm more specifically talking about when the enemies only reaction is to turn and run for an alarm. He makes no sound and doesn't shoot, just turns his back so I can stab him.

 

Either way, other enemies should not know where you are if the enemy does not shout or shoot their weapon.

This I can agree with, at least I know I'm not hearing things.

[theasl]

i remember having this conversation over a year ago. we came up with the idea that the grineer and corpus units are linked (for example by neural sensors, the resource), so that once one notices you, the others in the same area/squad/whatever are immediately alerted via their helmets/implants. as for the infested, it's a huge hive mind, which has the same effect. of course, this doesn't explain why the others don't notice when another one actually dies...

Edited February 23, 2015 by theasl

[Marthrym]

Many have been asking this for quite some time now. Even moreso lately with the Spy missions rework and the changes to come. I hope DE will hear us, that's the kind of change that would make the game MUCH more enjoyable, and not just for stealth enthusiasts. +1

[Jeloxale]

Search function excists

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/402566-ai-alert-mechanics-need-tweaking-while-waiting-for-stealth-20/

[GhostSwordsman]

Read the title.

 

+1

 

Read the post.

 

Enemy hivemind AI needs to be replaced with something that actually works.

With the recent changes to the way sounds work in-game(reverb sounds), I have some hope that eventually voices will stop traveling across more than half a tile, unless the enemy shouts really loud(as some of their sayings are audibly louder/quieter than others) or fires their weapon.

 

Hivemind AI really only makes sense with the infested, as they are literally a hivemind organism.

 

i remember having this conversation over a year ago. we came up with the idea that the grineer and corpus units are linked (for example by neural sensors, the resource), so that once one notices you, the others in the same area/squad/whatever are immediately alerted via their helmets/implants. as for the infested, it's a huge hive mind, which has the same effect. of course, this doesn't explain why the others don't notice when another one actually dies...

Even if the enemies had a headset, this behavior would make some sense in, some situations. But near as I can tell, there is little to no evidence of any enemy possessing a radio. The only thing I can think of is the liset radio, but that could just be listening devices planted by Tenno or General Grineer coms, i.e. ships coms in the bridge or coms accessed via a console or panel.

 

If that is the case, or if that is a reason given by a dev for such behavior, then we need to be able to visually and audibly know when an enemy that has spotted us uses his radio to alert others to your presence. Perhaps, we could get an uplink, similar to the Lotus trasmissions and other conversations while in-game, that has a general line appear, such as "I've got a Tenno in here!", "Tenno spotted, need some help!", etc, etc, that is in the respective language of the enemy faction. And, if this were to be implemented, we would need an actual delay between being spotted and other enemies(aside from the enemy that saw us) learning of our presence, not in an instant, one guy sees you, 8 other guys know you're there type of deal. Even then, I'd like that to be based on the enemy's reaction, because as I stated above, sometimes the enemy just turns and runs for a console(much more often with the corpus than the grineer) rather than shooting at me or saying anything.

 

Search function excists

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/402566-ai-alert-mechanics-need-tweaking-while-waiting-for-stealth-20/

Your thread and my thread are not the only ones asking for a change, as stated by Marthrym. Nearly every bit of feedback is helpful to the devs, and what I posted in the OP I feel warranted it's own thread, as the topic is similar to yours, but my feedback is different.

 

Apart from that, there seems to be a correlation between the number of threads on one topic and the time it takes DE to react to the feedback(flames, in the most notible cases). So by that logic, the more individual threads, the better.

 

Edit: Also, the forum search function is hilariously broken. Most times I try and use it, I come up with no results for what I was searching for. It gives me topics, but not topics relevant to what I was searching for.

Edited February 23, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[Sannidor]

Meanwhile we tolerate AI stupidity on every other level when it makes missions easier. 

 

I know all factions see death all the time but not being empathetic and awful at job of patrolling the area are two different things.

 

Are enemies alerted by the sight of dead bodies of their comrades? Or the noise these make when exploding? I'd like to have DE explaining how it's calculated just like recent overheat damage case since wiki can't be trusted. Does awareness depends on their level? Should we calculate which melee weapon draws less attention when going for stealth takedowns? Not that these are rewarded enough beside rescue. Melee stealth being noisy and excessively acrobatic in some cases is another topic.

 

Stealth 2.0 is not coming anytime soon, DE seems to be pleased with new spy missions as players memorize vaults patterns instead of reacting.

 

Every time I open vault "A" the same enemy appears in the same spot, cameras have constant blind spots. No matter how elaborated noise/field of view mechanisms are, if I know what will happen I will not be very creative unless testing stuff out of pure curiosity. Varying spawn points for obstacles needs to happen.

 

Troops communicating through radio or infested hivemind do not insult my intelligence. Otherwise, how can they be calmed by hacking alarms?

Yet, in mobile defense I often hit some enemies at "unalerted" state. So they were oblivious to my presence but rushed to whatever caused the disturbance? I'm fine with it.

 

I tested some thing on corrupted Nullifiers - with Loki returning to being visible it takes them zero time to (one) shot me even if I'm far from supposedly existing cone of view. Their LoS (just like other enemy snipe units) must be shortened when unalerted/semi alerted. Yes, another thing to fix in this horrible unit...

 

New mobs configurations should take care of multiple Nullifiers problem but I'd be more pleased with better enemies - not walking into a wall in circles, getting stuck squatting at edges and indifferent to dying friends.

[ThePresident777]

Maybe they wear google glasses?  Hehe.  Yeah, the AI can appear a bit to hive mind at times.

[GhostSwordsman]

-snip-

Quite a lot there.

 

First off, I think it would be neat if the enemy AI were more "intelligent" when it came to things like spotting dead comrades or witnessing a fellow buddy fly by because of an arrow to the (knee) face. But I think that the hivemind intelligence needs to go first, or be improved somehow. Because if they got 'smarter' by reacting to dead bodies, then the situation would just be worse because we would have an enemy spotting a dead body, followed by the "Tenno is in X spot, because I found a dead body" behavior and end up with squads running to your location. Or worse yet, whoever spots the dead body runs for an alarm and sets it off without you knowing. Because one dead body definitely requires putting the ENTIRE ship on high alert, rather than a simple investigation.

 

I think enemies going after alarms should be marked via the HUD and the mini-map, might help in identifying those pesky tattle-tales, they are a priority target in a stealth run after all.

 

Also, enemy alerted states seem to be a bit wonky at best. In a minor alerted state, it is too easy to be spotted, and this isn't helped by the erratic movements that all enemy AI possess. It seems that the cone of vision increases which means that any approach that isn't from directly behind will get you spotted, and they seem to be able to see farther and hear much better too. On top of that, a minor alert state, to my knowledge, disables stealth kill animations, so you can't dispatch targets with that nice damage multiplier. So if you happen to have a weapon or be in a situation where a stealth kill is required to kill the enemy, guess what, you've been spotted. The last frustrating mechanic of the minor alert state is that enemies in adjacent tiles, if they don't run for an alarm console, take cover, meaning that without a mod like enemy sense, you won't know they're there until they pop around the corner to shoot at you(because apparently, they know when you walk into the room, even though they have no idea what's going on, they are just 'alerted' to something suspicious) Minor alert states also seem to make enemy movements more erratic than normal and even less predictable, so the chance of being seen is increased all the more.

 

As for the high alert state, in some cases, I've witnessed it causing additional alerted enemies to spawn in adjacent tiles. This causes two problems, first, any minor alerted enemy will become a high alert enemy, second, they run towards your location. The second is an issue because it causes and endless cycle of enemies to spawn and come after you, even if the alarms stay turned off, and that essentially ruins any chance of getting back to incognito mode. It is possible to get around this though, when spotted and enemies are put on high alert, if the alarms stay off, move over one tile, kill any enemy in that room and wait for enemies to enter the room as well. If you do that, then you exhaust the spawn of high alert enemies and you can return to an un-alerted state. (true stealth runs take a lot of patience because, without a loki or ash, I like to use Frost Prime, you will be spotted a few times)

 

As for the walking in circles, that just seems to be a very common error in the pathing for enemy troops. Too many spawn too close to each other and walk the exact same paths, so when they reach a rest or stop node, only the first guy can stand there, the rest just keep trying to reach that exact coordinate, causing the walking in circles problem.

 

Everything about stealth 2.0 and vaults feels off-topic to me.

 

If troops communicate through radio, they they must have better equipment than us, because that reaction time from surrounding troops is instant. And I would imagine that they are calmed by hacking the alarms because the alarms go off. If you were not in the room where the alarms originated, and they went off after a bit, would you not think that what ever set them off was either a malfunction or the situation was settled? Followed by you going about your own business?

Edited February 23, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[GhostSwordsman]

Just noticed a couple of things about how alert states function that does not seem right.

Also, enemy alerted states seem to be a bit wonky at best. In a minor alerted state, it is too easy to be spotted, and this isn't helped by the erratic movements that all enemy AI possess. It seems that the cone of vision increases which means that any approach that isn't from directly behind will get you spotted, and they seem to be able to see farther and hear much better too.

1. Enemies in a high alert state seem to have a near 360 degree cone of vision.

 

I just ran the Potato alert, which was the old spy 1.0. Thing is, once I reached the room with the last two consoles, the first osprey I shot at didn't die, so every enemy in the room knew where I was, not entirely the point, but anyway, I killed off something like 6 or 8 of them, with one remaining. All the enemies in the room were in the high alert state, however, the alarms were never turned on(oddly enough, for the Corpus, none of the crewmen ran for the alarm) so only the enemies in the room were the ones who were there when I walked in(though it did feel like a few spawned after I was discovered, but that's another topic and issue).

 

Problem is, when I went to go kill the last guy, I moved down from the catwalk level and went underneath him(without being seen), back up the stairs and came up from behind. He was looking in the opposite direction when I approached him(worthy to note that I was not 180 degrees behind him, but I definitely would not have been noticed if it were actual combat(i.e., my foe's behavior wasn't governed by a computer program) but he turned around and started shooting at me before I got into melee range.

 

Why? Why did he know exactly where I was coming from if he was walking around as if he was searching for me; as it looked as if I had vanished. I can only think it's a result of this silly hivemind nature the enemies possess, once seen all enemies that are alerted(in the room and adjacent rooms) 1.know you are there, and 2.know exactly where you are at all times.

 

On top of that, a minor alert state, to my knowledge, disables stealth kill animations, so you can't dispatch targets with that nice damage multiplier.

2. Enemies in a minor alert state do not grant stealth kill bonuses and will kill the combo counter if you kill them before they return to an un-alerted state.

 

This one, while a bit off topic(relevant because of the telepathy behavior enemies have, you can put a few adjacent tiles into a minor alert state just by being seen by one guy), just doesn't make any sense, to me at least. If an enemy is in a minor alert state, to my understanding, they are aware that an 'anomaly' exists somewhere in the proximity, but they do not know exactly what is going on. From my understanding the purpose of this state is to speed up enemy reactions(shooting, as they walk with their guns raised or hide in cover, and alerting the base/ship, as they can turn towards a console more quickly because they shouldn't be as surprised to see a Tenno compared to an un-alerted enemy) or just make it more difficult to go undetected.

 

This state, however, should not prevent the stealth kill multiplier from starting or continuing to stack(or persist once maxed out) if you remain unseen when dispatching enemies. The reason being that enemies are aware something irregular is present, maybe(if they go into a minor alerted state due to the breaking of a container, then for all they know, someone could have dropped a tool or weapon, or fell down the stairs), so if you, the Tenno can stay out of enemy LoS(line of sight) and kill from behind(via stealth kill anim or not, but this state also disables that prompt too) you should continue to rack up the multiplier and gain the correct affinity for killing enemies quietly and without further alerting them.

Edited February 26, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[JackMcRain]

I guess I understand what you're talking about, I basically have similar cases. But what pisses me off a bit it's just the fact that the enemies seem to always know where you are when in alert state, unless if you're invisible. Sometimes I think these guys must have some kind of a Rinnegan eye that allows them to see the same thing or what so ever, even when someone didn't activated the alarms. But either way, they are not smart, I could see cases in exterminate missions when the very last guy tries to activate the alarm even when he's the last one.

But there's also something which I personally don't like because it tends to be extremely predictable and that's when you're playing in an exterminate mission on the void or in infested tilesets, or even when the fire hazard is activated in any other mission. Sure that the infested or the currupted can basically attack the players right at the begining of the exterminate mission due the fact that they can sence when there're intrusers in their territory, but the grineer and the corpus just can't have any excuses of knowing where the players begin their mission just because the place where they are is on fire. I mean, as far as I know they never see you at the begining and yet they know where you are.

I've heard that the DE team was planing making some updates to older things like parkour and other things, if they're about to do the same for exterminate they'll need to take some ideas from other stealth based games like Mark of the Ninja, I mean, in that game there's always a timer that says how much time the player will still be detected until it runs out. I fact if the enemies could instead have a different AI behavior that would probably make them much different is someway especially in stealth missions.

I don't know how the stealth missions or the AI can be improved but let's hope that DE doesn't mess up with them when they want to introduce 2.0 versions of them.

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

Earth levels are the worse to this, since there is no alarms and even the feral Kubrows (either you OR the Grineer fighting them ) give your position away.

 

Stealth atm is made more difficult since there is always more than 1 alarm console in an area and the enemy AI seem to be immune to Knock-down when their using it.

[GhostSwordsman]

Earth levels are the worse to this, since there is no alarms and even the feral Kubrows (either you OR the Grineer fighting them ) give your position away.

 

Stealth atm is made more difficult since there is always more than 1 alarm console in an area and the enemy AI seem to be immune to Knock-down when their using it.

And if you do knock them down while they're activating the alarms but don't kill them, the alarms still activate.

 

I've had that happen multiple times. It needs to be fixed too.

[HibikiGanaha]

This is my biggest gripe with stealth now.  Before it was how enemies wouldn't notice other enemies dying. +1

[Valar.Morghulis]

I can swear I hear a grineer solider shout when they've spotted me.

They do "shout" most of the time however, i don't think the sound plays always. I think the radius of alert enemy should be shorter then it is.

[GhostSwordsman]

They do "shout" most of the time however, i don't think the sound plays always. I think the radius of alert enemy should be shorter then it is.

25m for a shout is a long way for sound to travel, possible, but a stretch for small and large rooms on ships with closed doors at every new section.(also, it's a functioning ship so lots of little sounds, creaking, white noise, Hek, some of the grineer tiles have a firing port side gun, no way a shout could be heard over that) Hence why enemies in adjacent tiles become alerted to your presence even if you kill said enemy before he even thinks of touching an alarm. It gets even more silly when enemies come charging through closed doors(because one soldier can apparently shout so loud that the captain up in the bridge probably heard them too... yeah, no) I can swear that sometimes the enemies have more of a 'gasp' when they spot you as it is audibly softer than the more obvious "Tenno skoom" that you will sometimes hear.

 

The range for gunshots is 50m, without silencing mods, and that I can believe and I think is fine, because if an enemy fires their gun, then yes, I expect nearby troops to run in to inspect why that Grakata/Hind/Dera/Supra/etc. was discharged. What I don't appreciate is them knowing exactly where I am when I'm not "on the sensors".

 

You should be able to dispatch the enemy that spotted you, and if he fired his gun, be able to move to a separate location in the tile and wait for the other troops to come and investigate. At that point, if they see a dead body and don't see you, then they return to a minor alerted state and begin patrolling. This way, if you are careful(and also building off one of my earlier posts) you can kill them silently(possibly with stealth finishers) and return the area to and un-alerted status, or just wait it out.

 

 

However, this brings up another issue that I was just coming here to post about. Enemies possess the same behavior for wildlife, Corpus/Grineer troops(respectively) or infested as they do for enemy Tenno. This is an issue because once the alarms go off, every enemy in the base knows your exact location, regardless of whether or not you were actually seen. (I guess those sand skates really spook the Lancers) It is rather annoying to be going along in a mission only to hear gunfire in the distance and find that Lancers are trying to kill sand skates and because of the range of the sound guns make, some Lancer or butcher a tile further gets spooked and hits the alarm, revealing your location(somehow).

 

This makes rescue missions, or stealth in general, on any planet with wildlife(read Phobos) near impossible, because the chance of a sand skate spawning when you reach the prison and spooking the wardens is high. And again the issue lies within the A.I., they are programed to go initiate the kill sequence when they reach the high alert state. It is frustrating because you could potentially fail the mission while surveying the prison to try and get the hostage out, again being punished for remaining undetected.

 

I would suggest either assigning a separate alert state for when enemies engage in combat with wildlife or another faction if the player is undetected, or make a separate alarm level specifically for wildlife/non-player factions. I.e. the alarm is meant to tell nearby troops that backup is required to deal with the local wildlife/faction/etc. and you are made aware of this via a Lotus transmission cautioning you that the enemies are in a more aware state due to local wildlife.

Edited February 27, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

I've actually had enemies running towards me (usually followed by an instant lockdown) within the 1st few seconds of starting a mission, especially on corpus ship tile sets that look like it was recently attacked by grineer.

 

Also the starting positions on some missions mess up stealth, how many times have you started a mission and either the area is already in high alert like the scenario above or you spawn in an area where you are spotted instantly? i can count 100s of occasions where the it has happened.

[GhostSwordsman]

Okay DE, I've gathered some of my thoughts and here are a few suggestions I'd like to make to possibly improve the stealth run experience. (because currently, it's almost impossible to have a near perfect stealth run with anything other than an Ash or a Loki < Which is not cool, in my opinion)

 

-Reduce the range that shouts can travel. Currently 25m is a huge range, usually it encompasses an entire tile plus a bit of adjacent tiles. It feels wrong as 1. we now have reverb sounds in the game, so the farther away you are, the less likely you are to hear the sounds source, and 2. sometimes there will be a few enemies(a squad) on the opposite end of the room and you won't know they are there, and due to the change in sounds, if I couldn't hear the enemies from that distance, neither should they. I won't throw out any actually numbers as that usually gets people upset, but in my next suggestion, the screenshot's I'll provide might give a good idea of how far sounds should travel.

 

-Prevent sounds from traveling through closed doors.This is one of the most annoying things. Enemies will come from dead end tiles(at the opposite end of the room you're in, or just in a far away dead end tile) charging into the room to come after you when one sees you and 'shouts'. I just don't think that sound would travel through the doors in this game. Most seem like bulkheads as they are able to keep rooms around one that is depressurized from depressurizing. I just find it really hard to believe that a shout, especially one from the opposite end of the room, can clearly be heard on the opposite side of a closed bulkhead door.

 

-Reduce the range in which gunshot sounds travel. I know, I know, earlier I said I was fine with how far gunfire sound traveled to alert enemies. But after playing yet another Grineer spy mission, I noticed that via reverb sounds, I wasn't always able to hear the muzzle sound from the Grakata's being fired at me. Now, maybe the reverb system needs a tweak, but I'm just going to suggest the distance at which the sound travels be reduced. Here are a couple of screenshots describing what I'm getting at:

 

I told a half truth. I don't have the screens yet, imgur is being super slow and the images won't upload so I'll get them up here as soon as they are uploaded, since steam images can't actually be used on these forums for some reason.I have the images, here:

In this case, the lancer that has the red square around him, as well as the guy next to him(in my crosshair), I could only hear the bullets hitting my shields or the ground around me. I couldn't actually hear the gun firing.

 

Similar instance here, only with a ballisitca(and surprisingly much closer) The sound of the ballistica's rifle firing was audible, but just barely. Now, maybe this speaks more for reverb sounds needing an improvement/adjustment, but I feel that it gives more support for changing the distances at which sounds travel for enemies.

 

-Make the regular tiles in all tile sets more stealth friendly. What I'm getting at here is how the vault rooms are laid out. I love the alternative paths that are available to reach your objective and I love how you can very easily bypass enemies. Now this change doesn't only really require a visual update to the tiles but also changes to enemies as well, things such as spawn rates, positioning, pathing, and even how scaling works(which is a touchy subject) to allow less enemies to spawn but still be challenging at [X] planets level.(I have a few ideas for this but will hold my tounge as it is more appropriate to put into it's own thread) This change, while I'd like to see it happen, I don't actually expect because of the work it entails to go back and basically redo all the current tiles in the game.

 

-Also, please, please, please, I beg of you to take a look at the current enemy pathing in the game(by actually playing the game, not just looking at code. I'm NOT saying that you don't play your own game on the current build vs. the dev build, but as a player(only), I feel I'm experiencing the results of the coding and the hiccups(?) it has, and something just feels off). Sometimes enemies all cluster around a node that is supposed to make them stop and stand there, and that sometimes makes it difficult to get around and also messes with their fields of vision(example being I could kill a lancer as the one next to him is looking directly at him, and he is not alerted whatsoever). Other times it makes their movements too erratic. I've had a few instances where I've watched an enemies patrol pattern, memorize it to be able to take them out without being seen, only to have them turn around for some odd reason right before I'm in range to melee them, and end up getting spotted. There just isn't any real control over when things happen while trying to stealth out a mission in this game yet.

Totally agree with this. Changing this mechanic will allow a less random stealth experience and give us more control (which you need in stealth) over when something happens.

This might also help in the whole, enemies only swap to different cover, instead of picking a spot and shooting at me phenomenon, or just the erratic movement they posses when seeking cover, etc.

 

Those are all I have right now, I will likely add more if I think of them. I also think that these changes would greatly improve stealth gameplay(aside from the main points made throughout the thread about enemy A.I. behavior and alert states) as currently I see it being near impossible to have a perfect, or in some cases even a good, stealth run without Loki or Ash(because of the invisibility) or running specific mods for the warframes, such as enemy radar/enemy sense, sprinting mods(to help with blocking and movement, so you are less likely to be seen and can close distances faster), silencing mods for weapons, etc.

 

 

Edit: Got the images. Found out imgur installed an anti-bot upload mechanism.

Also, another idea.

 

- Fix or change enemy LoS(their cone of vision) and hearing. Currently it feels like enemies are able to hear better when alerted(minor or high alert state) and it feels unfair. I can get wihin 15m of an apporaching enemy and not be seen when they are unalerted, but not when they are in a minor alert state. That just doesn't seem right. The enemies are either blind and deaf, or they have hawk-eye vision and supersonic hearing.

 

-Melee enemies hitting you(Butcher, Scorpion - both her machete and hook, Flameblade, Prodman) should not alert nearby troopers to your presence. Especially when they don't speak and only swing their weapons. If our blade strikes are silent, theirs should be too.

 

-Sentinels could use a precept mod that prevents them from using any of their default precepts that can alert enemies to your presence(Crowd Dispersion/Warrior, Revenge, Striker, etc.) until the enemies are in a high alert state, or when the alarms are turned on/room is on lockdown(have to be careful with the lockdown as stalker causes a lockdown and broken windows also cause a lockdown) and sentinels would need to be able to know  when alert states change(or when alarms go off).

Edited February 27, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[GhostSwordsman]

Reviving this thread because I've found a couple other things that weren't listed and I think need to be implemented/reworked.

 

-First, there needs to be a delay of sorts between when an enemy is alerted and when they react.

 

Right now, as soon as they are alerted (i.e. an ally is killed inside their cone of vision) they instantly react by turning to shoot at you, with seemingly unfair accuracy. Because apparently shooting someone with a silenced sniper rifle lets the guy next to him know exactly where you are, not just that someone is in the area that's a threat.

 

ehrm... Sorry about that, I just get frustrated when trying to go as quiet as possible in non endless missions and I'm utterly defeated by the AI alert states behavior.

 

I'd suggest a 3 second window for any enemy that witnesses one of their buddies being killed. In this window, if they are also killed, then anyone else that was unalerted just goes about their business, as if nothing happened, because they really wouldn't be any the wiser.

 

 

-Second, and I've mentioned this before, I'm getting a bit tired of gunshot sounds traveling through closed doors.

 

My particular beef with this is that I almost always witness enemies enter the room I'm in from the opposite side, coming through a door that was closed before they entered. The problem I have with that is, usually, they are alerted by an enemy that fired his gun at me because he was very close to the door I came through.

 

I can completely understand them hearing gunshots if they're right on the other side of the door, but from across the room? I mean, sure small rooms, but you only really find those on the ship tile sets, and I've said above that those doors(most of them) appear to be bulk heads, which are very thick, so sound didn't seem likely to travel through them unless the source was right on the other side. But hearing gunshots from across a room, through a closed door in a shipyard? On an arctic plane(because of the winds, crashed ship, etc.)? It just doesn't make sense.

 

Please, I beg of you to change this. Now that reverb sounds are in the game, I'm struggling to hear where the grakata fire is actually coming from at a medium distance, so I find it annoying that the enemies can hear those sounds from much farther away with objects that would block the sound between them and the sounds source.

 

As for the high alert state, in some cases, I've witnessed it causing additional alerted enemies to spawn in adjacent tiles. This causes two problems, first, any minor alerted enemy will become a high alert enemy, second, they run towards your location. The second is an issue because it causes and endless cycle of enemies to spawn and come after you, even if the alarms stay turned off, and that essentially ruins any chance of getting back to incognito mode.

Allow me to elaborate on why I quoted myself. What this third (gripe) issue has to do with is enemy spawns after you've been seen(not seen via alarms being turn on but being seen as in enemies in the tile are alerted to your presence).

 

It seems to me that enemy squads that spawn into the tile you're in when enemies become alerted either, know your exact location, or are able to spot you much more quickly than enemies that were present in the room before you entered. I've noticed on several occasions that enemies will spawn into the room I'm in, for some unknown reason (bug maybe?), and either they know I'm there, or can spot me and react much more quickly than enemies that were present when I entered the room.

 

The former makes sense only if you're still killing enemies that are in a high alert state and are engaged in combat with you, meaning that the problem lies with the new squad almost literally spawning on top of you. The latter is an issue because there is almost no way of knowing when an enemy squad spawns in. Even I've encountered issues running enemy sense/enemy radar. I can't say specifically that they don't show up on the mini map, because I've never had much of a chance to see if they show up before they're shooting at me and running for the alarms.

 

 

/semi-rant

Edited March 20, 2015 by GhostSwordsman

[GhostSwordsman]

More feedback:

 

- Burst fire weapons will cancel out their own stealth multipliers.

 

I was using the tiberon with hush on it, and just about every other kill netted my stealth multiplier bonus ending early. Why? Because apparently, if the first round in the burst doesn't kill the enemy, they're alerted, and the sequential bullets in the burst that do get the kill don't count as stealth rounds.

 

I don't even know how to evaluate this. I mean, in the split second it takes from bullet #1 hitting to bullet #2 out of a 3 round burst to hit an enemy, they are suddenly alerted to my presence and the threat, thus ending my stealth? Doesn't seem right...   I don't know. All I do know is that if I fire one burst, and that burst kills (all bullets, not just the first one) and nobody is alerted to the kill, then I should get the multiplier or continue to have the multiplier.

 

 

- Enemy spawns

 

I don't recall if I've touched on this in this thread yet, but I think the spawn locations, requirements, and behavior needs to seriously be looked at.

 

I should never, ever have to be in combat for 2+ minutes with the alarms off.(as in they were never turned on) At least not when I'm successfully(as much as possible without a fully invisible warframe) being quiet and stealthy throughout 99% of the mission.

 

All of this was due to the way enemies would spawn. I've witnessed enemies spawning into the same tile I'm in right after killing some. I've had enemies spawn into little end-cap rooms with no alarms and one enemy or no enemies alerted. All of this can lead, and sometimes it's inevitable, to full on combat because there is(apparently) this unseen quota of enemies that must be upheld at all times, and of late it's been causing a severe break in stealth because of where, when, and how enemies spawn whilst you're being stealthy or semi-stealthy.