Clowee
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Posts posted by Clowee
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You didn't actually read the opening post, did you?
I was going to comment on this same post till I got to the part about thunderbolt and realized he got the moral of the story without actually reading the book.
Ivara has no need for "breathing room" because she has:
A) Stealth Arrow - shoot at your feet for glorious effect
B) Sleep Arrow - Shoot at your feet for glorious effect, and then 1 shot everything around you.
C) Prowl - Go invisible and then 1 shot everything around you.
D) The ability to use both A B and C without having to sacrifice any major utility such as range, power, or duration.
and breaking crates? Really? REALLY? people are complaining about not being able to break crates as an issue with this warframe? Is this really happening? Can't us players of Ivara just be grateful that we are not bound to running around with short meaty claws like Valkyr? Seriously, if that's Ivara's main issue with #4 then I think she's pretty well off compared to many frames.
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Her prowl already does so much. Extra loot rolls, invisibility, increased headshot multiplier, increased melee stealth multiplier. That's quite a lot of things all rolled into one skill.
I agree with this. Prowl is quite strong with all the benefits it offers, and you can still move fast enough by using the somersaults in conjunction with jumping, although it looks and feels hella stupid.
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I dont really see any need to modify it.
Even if it is useless on a high % of missions, Ivara still has 6 other useful abilities and doesnt have to change forms to use them.. Even if you consider navigator useless, then she has 5 other generally useful abilities. Most warframes have 4 total, whether they be useless or not.
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Because two Grakata > one Grakata.
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The main problem for me with most Zephyr rework threads, is they don't care for current players who love Zephyr as she is now. It's true that she's not the best frame, and it's true she needs some rework, but you don't have to change ALL of her powers and turn her into completely different frame. She needs a Frost type rework, where everything would basically stay the same, but have much more utility to it. It's not that hard to do IMO.
Instead, most Zephyr threads suggest to change at least one or two of her powers drastically, whether it's flight mode instead of Tail Wind or Dive Bomb, changing Tornado, or just changing all her powers into something different. We need QoL changes on ALL her powers, but they shouldn't change the powers themselves.
^^^^^^^^ This!
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how about NOPE? you don't need 6 forma on zephir for that tonkor build, how many formas you need on the tonkor that's up to you but you don't need more than one forma on zephyr to be able to use that build without any problem at all, you can use one more if you want to use maxed narrow minded and primed continuity but that's it, why on earth would you need 6?
and the fact that the only viable build with a frame revolves around using an augment and is still tied to only using one ability (if you're using jet stream using tailwind is even more rendundant and divebomb is useful said no one ever) it's problem in itself.
You won't get any argument out of me that binding the frame to 1 aug/ability is not good. It does however work extremely well - to the point where most of the mass hysteria and ignorance surrounding Zephyr's relative power levels are unfounded. To the folks to like to point out how they did X mission on Zephyr while wielding a rotting banana: Congrats. You would have probably gotten through it much faster if you used a weapon that actually synergizes with the frame. I really liked the argument that went along the lines of "but but but you can use a rifle when grouped with Banshee!" It's creative thinking, but you can also use a Tonkor, Lato, baseball bat or disembodied giraffe head with Banshee to glorious effect, and on that note how often do you really get to group with Banshee?
When I'm talking about "viable" I'm talking about violently smacking down and publicly shaming all of the haters who go "HUK HUK HUK SNORT CAN YOU PLAY SOMETHING OTHER THAN ZEPHYR?" when you join their group. For THAT, you will want a Tonkor so you can shove it down their stupid throat and make them eat it while they stand there without any mobs to kill. That way next time they see another Zephyr, they will know to stfu and stop hating. In the rare event your group loves you, feel free to run around with nothing but a lion cloth and heat dagger.
As far as 6 formas on the frame go you'll need them if you want to be real mobility (like you'll never have any reason to ever ever ever whine about other frames being more mobile than Zephyr level mobility) + tonkor, and not have to waste a mod slot on terminal velocity on your Tonkor which is important, because as it's been said Zephyr's damage is mostly tied to her weapon. If you just want to be Tonkor, you can easily get away with less formas. I would HIGHLY recommend the seizure inducing speeds that are possible to reach with Zephyr though because too many people whine about mobility and need schooled before they start crying about how other frames can bullet jump and aim glide and how Zephyr is fat and slow and cant move. These same people tend to be the ones who disband/reform groups when somebody joins on a Zephyr.
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as this bug does not seem to affect all players:
Description: When this bug strikes, it will disallow you to switch quiver arrows for the rest of the mission. Tapping the 1 key will fully charge and fire the arrow instead of switching to the next arrow.
Some Testing:
There is a rumor that this is caused by Navigator. While this *could* be true, I have encountered this many times without ever using navigator. I have also gone into solo maps and used navigator on quiver arrows repeatedly without the issue reproducing. So far I cannot reproduce this problem aside from when it randomly happens. One thing of note is that I *NEVER* use navigator. I can also rule out ability 5 as I have not done the quest.Also of note that this always happens when using the stealth arrow. I have never had the sleep, noise, or zipline arrows get stuck. If somebody else has please chime in. I tend to use stealth arrows most often so its logical that I would get stuck most often with this arrow.
I have tried the following which seem like possible scenarios so far to reproduce the bug, all of which have been unsuccessful:
1) Firing the arrow and mousewheeling to Navigator. I also tested this mousewheel selecting all other abilities in all other directions (quiver to artemis, artemis to quiver)
2) Firing the arrow and activating Navigator.
3) Activating Navigator and firing the arrow.
4) Firing the quiver arrow and rolling.
5) 1-4 while under the effects of prowl.
Thus far the bug seems entirely random. Initially I thought it occured due to lag, but recently its come up on games with excellent latency and I have no reason to suspect lag.
I have tested the following workarounds, all unsuccessfully:
1) Rebinding the key mid map to another key.
2) Hitting ESC + the key
3) Falling out of the map
4) Using /unstuck
5) Running into Nullifier bubbles
6) Mashing the key as fast as possible. This has the interesting result of seeing the charge bar parially charge, but the arrow still fire. I also noticed that my active abilities scrolled while doing this (Quiver to Prowl).
7) Switching weapons and switching back.
8) Activating artemis bow.
I presently do not know if dieing and reviving will fix this.
does anybody else have any testing they can add to this, or a way to reproduce this bug?
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follow up for those who posted suggestions:
had the bug occur again. Did not use navigator the entire game.
Attempted to esc + key push no success.
Rebound the key mid game to another key, no success.
got the brilliant idea to spam the key as fast as possible, still does not allow switching of arrows, but you can see the partial charges on the window as the arrow fires. It looks like the arrow fires but the game is trying to switch abilities as if you were rolling the mouse wheel as i saw the other abilities like prowl highlight. Sumfin is definitly funny. Maybe somebody can move this to bugs at this point.
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I sold them, but I also do not miss them. Would not really want them back.
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I strongly disagree that this is annoying, and actually find it and all other weapons which propel you forward while attacking to be very useful. Its even double useful when you play something slow like Ivara.
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I have no issues with the Tonkor as is.
I would however like to see some improvements to the other launchers to share some of the mechanics like the rocket jumping.
I have 4 formas on both my Tonkor and my Ogris, and the only real difference in effectiveness between the two is that the Tonkor is a bit safer which makes it more usable. I would actually use the Ogris over the Tonkor if I didnt have to worry about blowing myself up everytime a teammate steps in front of me.
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As long as they fix the quiver bug where you cannot switch arrows, and ALL Ivaras are not expected to be artemis bow spammers in groups i'm happy with it.
It would be nice too i guess is the quiver arrows had a more generous hitbox for attaching to allies, but i'de just be happy with the bug fix
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I don't use it either but still encounter this.
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So, even with Parcour 2.0 Zeph is still viable? I know she is she has 2.5 good abilities... But imo the rest are useless... Tornado is insecure, 1st skill is now an enegery waster (if i overfly i will be reseted, which is dumb) second skill was always pointless... Turbulence and Jet Stream is awesome and tornados are so- so....
/fact
I just schooled some folks in game last night on the usefulness of Zephyr. She's extremely viable, but requires a good amount of work.
I do not recommend using tailwind to travel because you'll overfly as you mentioned. Here are some basic travel maneuvers for you. Please note that these are based around running at extremely high speed (high str + jetstream) and using the Tonkor:
Sonic the Hedgehog Roll: Get a sprinting in direction and tap the roll. Then while rolling execute a double jump. When the doublejump roll is about 2/3 finished, tap roll again. This will result in 3 rapid somersaults and should easily fling you from the door to the back stairs on a defense mission without using any energy and faster than you or anybody else can bullet jump. If you dont want go to as far, eliminate the last roll. Takes a little practice.
Tailwind Charge: Tap jump to get a foot or two off the ground and then tap tailwind while facing a group of enemies. Immediately after tapping tailwind, fire your Tonkor. This will result in you charging into them and exploding them all for dramatic effect.
Hover Bombing: Ensure there is nothing immediately above you like a roof, and that a suitably large group of enemies is in range or approaching. Use Tailwind to verticle jump. At the max height of the jump, when your momentum reaches 0, enter aimglide. This will allow you to hover in place for a few seconds and its generous enough to allow you to aim pretty well. During these few seconds unload both grenades from the tonkor. After this is done, reload and tap doublejump which will reset the aim glide and allow you to hover longer. Drop both grenades again and then steer yourself in direction that you wish to land in.
Momentum Killer: While traveling forward in the air, execute a backflip. This will slow you down. It may not seem like much, but it's helpful when you are traveling at ridiculous speeds and do not want to overshoot something.
Steering Aimglide: While using aimglide, tap (not hold, TAP) slide to gain small boosts of vectored momentum. With enough practice you should be able to aimglide around corners. While all frames can do this, nobody does it nearly as well as Zephyr.
Also there's an entire world of fun / usefullness you can learn by Tonkor jumping with Zephyr.
The moral of the story ultimately with Zephyr mobility is that you have to blend her skills with other parkour tricks to achieve superior mobility. You also should get the idea that Zephyr is an archwing out of your head. Do it right, and she blows any other frame away.
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it's likely it could occur with navigator and under other circumstances as well. I do not use navigator, even accidentally so if there is a navigator related bug then it's likely there are many ways to break this ability. The input lag is an interesting theory. I do not have FPS issues and use all wired equipment.
I can rule out nullifier fixing it and fall fixing it, but I will certainly try the esc idea next time i encounter this and report back on it - that is a very interesting theory on it but it makes sense.
It certainly feels like some kind of lag on some level, like the game does not realize i'm releasing the key (which is not sticking - tested this).
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I'm actually a little curious here, alike many others I've never experienced this particular issue at all. I've got 3 Forma on Ivara and have used her quite a lot since she was added, and I constantly use Quiver and switch the arrow I'm running with. Is there anything specific you can think of or note about anything, even a small detail over when this type of issue occurs for you? You noted being able to rule out Navigator's relation to the issue. Personally I can rule out rolling as causing an interference. I constantly roll even during Quiver's activation.
In the meantime another post in this thread has my mind working a little on one possibility already;
Granted this is merely an assumption. But it's worth noting that, upon firing Ivara's 1 your weapon is actually briefly switched in the lower right from whatever it is to (Quiver). It's possible that something like "hitting 5" during this would cause the normal functionality to become broken due to the mechanics at play. While it's only a hunch, it is at least worth keeping in mind.
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Do you, Clowee, make use of your "5" often during play sessions? It's just a shot in the dark but anything is worth keeping in mind while trying to sort out issues such as this. If you do utilize "5", try running a period of of missions without ever using it a single time. See if removing one possible cause removes the issue.
As someone who's legitimately never once seen this issue it's hard for me to go about testing it extensively. Lack of firsthand information and all.
Thank you for the suggestion, but I can rule out the 5 as I have not completed the quest for it yet. That's not to say that it may not occur under other circumstances regarding 5 (or navigator), but this occurs without the presence of either for me.
The build I was running was primarily built around using the quiver arrows to stealth and crowd control which has me shooting a ton of arrows keeping 3 people stealthed + sleeping stuff. It seems to me like this occurs when the latency in game is less than desirable, but not always and not to a huge extent where stuff rubberbands. I have had this glitch also disable existing ziplines to where I can no longer attach to them.
The best description i can give you is like this:
If you tap the 1 key for your power, you'll see the charge bar begin to charge, but if you do not fully charge the ability you switch arrows but see the ability charge partially under normal circumstances.
When the bug occurs, you tap 1 and the ability fully charges and fires automatically instead of switching. I have also noticed that I am unable to climb on my ziplines that I setup earlier in the round when this occurs. This is then the behavior of the ability for the rest of the round.
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Two things.
One, bug reports should go in their appropriate sections, not in feedback. The people who handle bugs don't look at this subforum, they look in bug reports.
Two, how do we replicate this bug? Saying "Bug X is aweful" does nothing constructive. Giving the bug hunters something to use when tracking down the bug is huge, and they need as much of that as they can get. Posts like this to little to help anything at all.
Two things.
One, If you actually read my post you would see I asked if anybody knows the cause of the bug which implies I quite obviously cannot reproduce it.
Two. If you actually read my post you would see that I am giving the "bug hunters" feedback in that the common rumor that this is caused by using Navigator on a quiver arrows is not the cause of this. Posts like this do little to help anything at all.
This has already been reported on the bug forums FYI. I'm giving FEEDBACK on it here because when it occurs the warframe ABILITY becomes greatly hindered, and if somebody who doesnt roam the bug reports has a workaround or a way to unglitch the quiver perhaps more people will see it. It appears as if based on the feedback thus far it is not as common as I thought it would be based on how often it occurs for me.
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This refers to the bug where you get stuck using one quiver arrow type, and cannot switch to other arrows.
While not always super game breaking, this is getting rather annoying especially when you actually need the other arrows. This is happening randomly and often enough that I'm going to whine on a forum about it.
Does anybody have a work-around or cause for this? The rumor that this occurs after using navigator with a quiver arrow does not seem to apply here as i never use navigator and still get jammed up a couple times a night.
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You can move faster on your Zephyr also by using the forward rolls than bullet jumping which will actually slow you down if you are using a mobility build. Another really useful mobility trick is to bind/macro your primary fire to the same key as your sprint toggle. This way when you fire your tonkor you never actually slow down to a walk speed. Many models of gaming mice are capable of doing this.
The only real downsides of Zephyr currently are:
1) The most effective build are bound to the Tonkor or Simulor. These weapons become cosmically powerful when used on a good Zephyr build. I'm not quite sure I under stand AO's guide reference about how building this way destroys your Zephyr and Tonkor because I have not had this experience either way (my effectiveness went WAAAAY up switching to a tonkor / mobility / power str build).
2) You'll need about 10 formas between your Zephyr and Tonkor. I run 6 on the Zephyr and 4 on the Tonkor. I run 4 on all of my primary weapons anyway so its kind of moot to me. Leveling the frame 7x was a bit of a chore though, but WELL worth it.
One thing I did not see in the above guide, which I may have missed but is important about mobility, is that power strength increases the speed boost gained from Jetstream. Zephyr with +power and + duration runs faster and longer than most Volts. She coincidentally also runs faster than you're other warframes can travel via bullet jumping, especially if you use forward rolling to boost your speed. As previously mentioned, If i attempt to bullet jump on the build i'm using, it actually slows me down.
3) Because most people have no clue how to play Zephyr, most people have no clue what Zephyr can actually do. This can cause problems with certain groups.
4) A few inconsistent mechanics regarding some of her abilities.
I would recommend a high power strength / jetstream / tonkor build to anybody having problems getting Zephyr to work. It's quite impressive - so much so that it usually produces compliments/questions from the rest of the group.
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Zephyr is quite powerful to the extent of being at least 10x more powerful than most people give her credit for. The problem with Zephyr is as follows:
1) The majority of people who try the frame are not very good at it. They do not understand the build mechanics of how to make an absurdly powerful Zephyr and get fixated on abilities like divebomb or the concept of trying to fly. Because of this, they get poor results and assume Zephyr is bad.
2) Zephyr rewards effort, skill and hard work in missions. This is a problem that stacks on top of issue 1. Most super-groups of Warframes tend to try to remove the player skill factor from the equation, and reduce the amount of work required to get results
3) Zephyr requires certain weapons to realize her full potential. If you do not know or understand how this mechanic works on her, then you're automatically playing with an ENORMOUS handicap and will never even come close to realizing the full potential of the warframe.
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so how do we "fix" Zephyr?
First of all, you need the ingredients for a correct build before you can even begin to properly investigate this question. If you want your Zephyr to "work" then you pretty much want the following:
1) You need jetstream. You absolutely need this mod. There is no question or room for debate. This is probably a bad thing in the long run, but quit whining about how bad your Zephyr sucks and equip it until DE figures something better out.
2) You need +++ power strength and as much duration as you can cram into your frame. Lets discuss why you need power strength before moving on, because it doesn't initially make any sense:
Jetstream will increase the speed of projectile weapons by a base of 100%. This is further increased by power strength. This accomplishes two things, one of which is it will greatly increase the range of limited range projectile weapons such as the Tonkor and the Simulor. Secondly, this will make the Tonkor detonate instantly upon impact with no bouncing.
A common misconception around power strength on Zephyr is that it will only help abilities like dive bomb and tornadoes, and therefor it's useless because these abilities are not universally awesome. Another common misconception about Zephyer is that +++ range is the way to go. Both of these are false. Strength is useful for the reasons above, and range is useless because you really arent going to help anybody with a super big turbulence field.
Now there's one more benefit of +++ Power Strength we overlooked which is it also increases the bonus to movement speed provided by Turbulence. at +138% power, I run faster you could ever hope to bullet jump. I also have better control because you cannot really change direction while bullet jumping where as I can do as I please. I run so fast, that I have no need or desire to waste my time bullet jumping. When I sprint into an aim glide, I travel like a comet and can cover great distances. Most people are dumbfounded by the speed at which I travel. This super speed is hugely beneficial in so many ways I could easily write a small book on it. I run as much speed as I can possibly get, and Volt is my best friend forever...
3) You need a Zephyr specialized weapon. This generally amounts to a Tonkor or a Simulor. Yeah I bet it's cool shooting dread with 238%+ arrow speed, but you are wasting your time doing this. In most situations, the Tonkor combined with a power build of sufficient % to make it instantly detonate will make your Zephyr nearly godlike in any mission provided that you can maintain turbulence (see duration). The Tonkor also allows you to boost yourself in the air without wasting energy on unneccessary tailwinding. The simulor becomes a bit (more) broken also when you can triple it's range and cover most of the viewing distance on a given map. The Sonicor is also somewhat neat with the range/speed extension, but the Tonkor for the most part is universally awesome and highly recommended with 4 or more formas.
4) The last ingredient your uber Zephyr stew needs is a solid understanding of aimglide, rolling and sprinting mechanics. This relates to my problem 1 above in that Zephyr rewards actually playing the game and playing it well.
Upon accomplishing the above 4 points, You will now instantly know that anybody playing Zephyr who just stands around using a Braton has no idea what they are doing. Anybody who is trying to fly the entire map, or thinks their Zephyr is a melee frame also has no idea what they are doing. You'll also observe that this extends to the VAST MAJORITY of people who try out Zephyr. It's unfortuante, but it's also not readily obvious that building a frame with poor damage abilities for power strength has great benefits so you really cant blame them. It took me months maining Zephyr to figure this out on my own without reading guides. So before you read on, assuming you have a Zephyr, go build as above and play several missions.
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Assuming you've done as instructed by this guide thus far, you're now qualified to have a valuable opinion on how to balance Zephyr given that you've unlocked her actual potential. My OPINION on this is as folllows:
1) Tailwind: It's not bad. It has a lot of uses, but it also guzzles energy which is hard to come by in a high power strength / range build. You cannot spam it without an energy helper like Trinity, but you also should not need to spam it given the massive mobility Zephyr already has.
2) Divebomb: This ability is absolutely terrible. It should either be reworked, or combined with tailwind and replaced by something else.
3) Turbulence: This is Zephyr's core ability. It's what makes her a mobility frame, and it's responsible for her survivablity. It's not as inconsistent as people claim, and the majority of suggestions I see on these forums would break Zephyr so badly she really would be a terrible warframe. The only justification for changing this ability at all is that the effective Zephyr builds tend to be pigeon holed as described above.
4) Tornados: They aren't bad. I only use them if people start dieing or I need to disperse an area of monsters for a little while. I do not see the need for some of the crazy changes proposed like "Zephyr becomes the tornado". They are certainly valuable to me in their current form, but usually not valuable enough that I would always have them active. They could be improved or modified a little. I would not want a room killer though, as my Tonkor is plenty capable of doing that.
I hope this helps anybody struggling to figure out how to use Zephyr.
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Every day I check the forums, There is always 1 or 2 threads asking for a Zephyr rework, and all of them usually get rid of divebomb and replace it with flight. My question is, Is this really a nessessaty. I know wukong is going to get cloudwalk, but we can't really say much about that as there are only a few videos on wukong.
Lots of people say Zephyr is useless and want a rework that she can fly. But how would this make her less "useless". It would make her near invincible to infested, but that's all. Most maps don't really support flight in warframe, especially archwing type flight where your frame is flying really fast.
What do you think about a flight ability for Zephyr?
I have no desire for flight on my Zephyr. Flight would not add any real utility or usefulness to me.
The mobility frame is far from dead. Turbulence w/jetstream + very high power strength + Tonkor or Simulor is extremely powerful and extremely fast. Factor in tailwind for the added mobility and vector changing and you can cover an enormous amount of territory. On smaller maps like void defense, I can cover 3 directions in the time takes most frames to get to one. You cannot travel via bullet jump faster than I can run, and you cannot bullet jump anywhere near as fast as I can move when using abilities like forward rolls and tailwind in tandem with my speed. Furthermore, I can escort you and increase your speed if I see a need to do so. At the ridiculous speed of which I travel almost all of the time, I can easily aimglide like a comet clear across the map if i so choose (I can also aimglide slower, side to side, and from wall latch to wall latch over very far distances).
As an nonmobility related bonus, if you have a weapon like a Tonkor, which is already powerful, I can increase it's effectiveness via + projectile speed till the point where it no longer bounces. I can also roughly triple the range of weapons like the Sonicor or Simulor.
Speed has value when done well.
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People have a poor understanding of damage vs usefulness.
Part of me dies everytime somebody talks about awesome their damage is when the shoot a corrupted butcher for 100k+ damage with dread.
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It would be nice if we could doublejump again after using tailwind, this would allow for better aerial control and improve her "flying" playstyle.
One of the better suggestions.
Thank you for not totally butchering the warframe like most buff Zephyr suggestions. Zephyr is quite powerful already if built and played correctly.
Removing Arrows From Quiver
in Warframes
Posted · Edited by Clowee
I think Ivara needs bug fixes more than QoL or Balance tweaks. Most of the stuff listed as complaints about her tend to be pretty trivial, unless you run into one of the horrible horrible bugs she suffers from such as when quiver breaks, or Artemis bow doesnt summon correctly and breaks.
also a Artemis bow build is really easy and wins life if you do str and effeciency and use a random rifle with 6 or so formas.
I feel that being able to punch or kick stuff would be pretty useless given that it's likely if you are punching and kicking:
You're only going to hit one target because of your abysmal range. Look at the MASSIVE AE POWER of the current selection of fist and sparring weapons, and ask yourself is that what you really want? Since you're probably only going to be kicking one or two things at a time at most, you're better off just tapping them with the bow fire and obliterating them and everything in a line behind them.