ObviousLee
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Posts posted by ObviousLee
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War isn't going to get a prime. War is not a Tenno or Orokin created weapon. It's sentient created. It's not going to break lore because it's never going to get a prime. Not sure what gave you the idea that it would, but yea... No.
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On 3/25/2018 at 10:06 PM, Traumtulpe said:
I like the way the Embolyst looks and its reload animation/sound, but sadly the weapons performance is mediocre.
While the base damage is good, the weapon needs 2 mods that don't add any damage (syndicate/range) and has terrible critical stats - resulting in still limited range, yet not particularly high damage. Ammo economy is fine, however I find myself using Pistol Scavenger against somewhat tougher enemies because of the lackluster damage. And because of the limited range, stealth or CC feel obligatory in combination with this weapon for defense.
In theory this weapon seems perfect to mod for gas damage against crowds because of it's innate poison damage, it's capability to hit multiple enemies and high status chance. However this is highly ineffective against both Infested and Grineer.
I suggest to restore the forced toxin proc this weapon had prior to the beam weapons buff, in order to increase its damage against tougher enemies and to give it a unique upside balancing its multiple downsides.
You know... I have a riven that gives minus 49% damage against grineer and it still rips through them. Methinks your build is your problem.
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The embolist absolutely melts high level enemies without even a riven mod added to it so I'm not sure what you're on about. A standard elemental weakness build against the faction you're using and high status chance makes it hilariously op. you might wanna re-think your build before saying the weapon is bad compared to anything.
Edit: the distance is 11 meters, by the way.
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9 hours ago, Stormandreas said:
You already can cancel tailwind by rolling FYI.
The only thing we need is to be able to charge a hover in the air, dash to a point and continue hoveringwrong. you can cancel the hover, not the flight of tailwind itself.
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yea....in my "lets fix zephyr once and for all" thread above yours I address the inability to actually build around target fixation. The mechanic of tailwind itself has to change in order for the augment to even be usable or built around.
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On 3/25/2018 at 1:09 PM, EchoesOfRain said:
Alright, so how about this suggestion...I assume we'd be getting a hold-to-cast Hover, since its a simple change and many of us seem to be pretty okay with that change. Now let's also keep this charging mechanic Tailwind currently has, but allowing us to move freely while charging. Charging will now create a sort of Wind Aura around Zephyr, enlarging the aura the longer it's charged. Once Zephyr releases Tailwind, she will dash forward as usual, with the Wind Aura following her along. If enemies are touched by this aura, they will be put in a suspended state and dragged along Zephyr's flight path. If Zephyr charges into a Divebomb instead, enemies around the landing point are simply suspended into the air.
That could make Tailwind more useful for CC and feel more powerful. Zephyr would be able to throw enemies off level boundries, kinda like the sonicor lol. Personally, I'd also like some slash procs with this idea, adding just another touch of damage without straight up being a damage dealing skill, but it's just an idea
Ok it's a little(lot) bit later than I'd intended but here goes: I can only really see an issue with the slash proc potentially as it's starting to make tailwind do too much. If tailwind allowed for continuous flight+directional divebomb ragdoll+target fixation+slash proc......that's just too much for one ability. Especially considering that all one would have to do is use target fixation and build up TW damage to the point of slash proccing enemies to death just by virtue of passing them. That's way too powerful for what I'm going for in this rework suggestion.
If anything, should tailwind be reworked to what I have suggested I'd go so far as to say making it the new second or third ability and putting air burst as the new first. just kinda shift things down the line as it were. As I said in the OP, maybe give air burst a slash proc as it passes through enemies, and implosion on collision with hard surfaces to drag enemies together, but adding a slash proc to a mobility skill seems like not the right decision to make.
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1 hour ago, EchoesOfRain said:
Alright, so how about this suggestion...I assume we'd be getting a hold-to-cast Hover, since its a simple change and many of us seem to be pretty okay with that change. Now let's also keep this charging mechanic Tailwind currently has, but allowing us to move freely while charging. Charging will now create a sort of Wind Aura around Zephyr, enlarging the aura the longer it's charged. Once Zephyr releases Tailwind, she will dash forward as usual, with the Wind Aura following her along. If enemies are touched by this aura, they will be put in a suspended state and dragged along Zephyr's flight path. If Zephyr charges into a Divebomb instead, enemies around the landing point are simply suspended into the air.
That could make Tailwind more useful for CC and feel more powerful. Zephyr would be able to throw enemies off level boundries, kinda like the sonicor lol. Personally, I'd also like some slash procs with this idea, adding just another touch of damage without straight up being a damage dealing skill, but it's just an idea
I have some thoughts about why this might not be the best approach, but I'm at work so I won't have time to actually flesh out what I want to say and adding to that I don't want my response to be knee-jerk reactions. I'll marinate on this and get back to you after my shift ends later tonight at nine.
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4 hours ago, fartloud said:
Yeah Zephyr is really questionable for most of the game.
Her passive is also really obnoxious. Why cant we have unlimited glide or something. Like it would matter in the grand scale of things to have something potentially fun.
Thaylien has a point here. Majority of players like the passive, of which I'm one of them.
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I'm actually with Thaylien on the situation about divebomb doing damage over cc. She's a mobility/cc centric frame, and granted I'm pleased with her being able to do a significant amount of damage via tornadoes, I'm kinda iffy on the idea of shifting more and more of her kit towards dps over cc.
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3 hours ago, CrankyCat said:
I'm not a player to spend ages optimising their frame, and to be blunt, I'm not a terribly good player, but Zephyr has always been my primary frame. Not because she was terribly effective (in my hands, anyway) but fell in love with her look and feel, especially when I got my fashion frame just where I wanted it.
I came back after taking a couple months break from Warframe (just reminding myself there's other games out there) but came racing back when the Zephyr Prime became available. I know a lot of people didn't see much value in Dive Bomb but I loved it. It was always my get out of jail free card. Surrounded by enemies and outside or high ceilings? Tail Wind straight up twice, Dive Bomb, knock them over like skittles, and generally my buddies would gun the bastards down while they were on their back. I was working towards getting Dive Bomb Vortex as well, so was kind of devastated to come back and find one of my favourite powers gone. - so yes, I'm biased cos it always sucks to be working towards something for a while (I rarely get to play during the week and don't often get to do Syndicate missions), then what you've been working towards has been removed entirely.
I know they don't exactly want to add a tonne of extra keybindings, and have no idea how it would work on console but If Tail Wind had a keybinding to cancel, or a keybinding to initiate the Dive Bomb properly without phaffing around trying to get the right angle, that'd be ace. And give us back the Dive Bomb Vortex :) I know people had some fun builds around it they really enjoyed, so what if it only works after an additional activiation of another power - you had to be high up, usually with Tail Wind to make it work in the first place. But then...there were times, quite a few, where I'd find myself very high up, knew there were enemies waiting at the bottom, so would just step off the platform, then Dive Bomb down. I think on Uranus iirc? (sorry, it's been a while) but that has a low ceiling, so again, you couldn't do it if you had to activate Tail Wind first. Sigh.
Even before the 'new and improve' pyscho-tail wind, I often found I would get stuck on lintels and beams with Zephyr when inside so instead of using her as she should - in the air, I was already just running through maps instead. Haven't taken her to the Plains yet.
The very first time I took her out with her new powers, I didn't mind that they'd combined two powers in one (before I realised that Vortex was removed - what happened to people with that mod in their builds?) until I worked out how clunky it was to use. And I didn't mind because they'd given her a new, cool offensive power - then I used it. It looked so awesome! And was so tragically underwhelming. It's 'okay-ish' for me at the moment because I'm still levelling the prime (not power levelling this one, just doing lowbie missions and taking my time and chilling) and it's 'okay-ish' against lowbie enemies. It's not just that it's a low power level, so doesn't really pack that much of a punch, it seems to have quite a narrow arc of effectiveness.
On the shield, yeah, I'm not so sure. I've never used Zephyr as a tank build (was going to when I got enough syndicate to get the mods), but I know a good few people specifically used her as a tank with that shield, but it sounds like the energy drain has nerfed that? I use it when I or the party are undermanned and need to do something non-combat related, like revive or use a console or something, to protect me for those precious few seconds.
I know I haven't really offered any plausible solutions but that's my point of view from a more casual player.
I'm going to be honest here.....I'm not really sure what you're trying to say in your post. I mean it seems like you're trying to say you like the changes, but you also don't. It could just be my lack of sleep and still being sick, but I'm still not sure. Either way thanks for your feedback I suppose. If you could though maybe clarify what your post is trying to indicate?
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21 minutes ago, Thaylien said:
Eh, when all's said and done, what I'm really sad about is that I was expecting Tailwind to be like a mod-able version of the Operator dash. I've gotten so used to using that now when I'm in Operator mode, it's genuinely so much better than any other movement I've used in Warframe to date...
So if Tailwind was like the big version of that? I don't think anyone could really complain. A speed that's near to a teleport, but able to turn and curve a little as you go, and then you return to normal air-travelling speed at the end of it, exploit that passive lightweight fall to re-aim and cast again, or even press a button to hover in place... I mean, I didn't want the hover, but now we have it, why not use it to the fullest? That kind of incredibly fast, pin-point accurate dash would have been so good. You wouldn't need any literal flight, because you'd be dodging across the sky and hovering on air until you wanted to come down again.
As much as I love the freedom that the new Tailwind has given me on the Plains, it's genuinely terrible on the tile sets. I really wanted that Dash...
Incidentally, my tailwind rework offers you exactly what you want.
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On 3/21/2018 at 6:29 AM, Landario said:
Hello,
thumbs up from me ! A very well written and detailed summary about changes that should have been made BEFORE releasing this Warframe as a Prime version.
I like your ideas and by the way you write, i can see that you really put a lot of thought into those proposed changes.
I'm glad you enjoyed the post. Thank you for taking the time to cast your thoughts onto the thread!
On 3/21/2018 at 6:34 AM, (PS4)lhbuch said:Zephyr just got her Prime yesterday which means that if this was a Burger Shop, the recipe of this sandwich is already considered good to be sold and is on the menu.
I dont like the rework as well, but I guess there is a chance that it will take years now.
Exactly.
On 3/21/2018 at 7:00 AM, Landario said:I guess that also depends on how vocal we as a comnunity are. If more People raise valid concerns about the Rework and the current state of Zephyr as a valiable Warframe, it will surely influence the decision of a lot of Players who did not decide yet if they want to spend Money on this Prime Access or not. And i am sure when it comes to this, DE will surely have open ears.
Loud. Loud as all hell.
On 3/21/2018 at 8:41 AM, ShadowCore67 said:Here's my suggestions:
Tailwind: Max height on hover should be affected by power range and charge time. Hover duration should be affected by power duration and not charge time. Allow her to move at walking speed while hovering (Some actual hover animations would be nice too). Allow the divebomb mechanic to trigger at any angle below Zephyr, not just directly below her. Make the knockdown affect as strong as ariburst.
Airburst: Increase the projectile speed a little more. Make the blast suck enemies in like it creates a little vortex on impact. This would make it have great synergy with divebomb. Suck all the enemies into a little group from the sky and then dive down and blast them all away.
Turbulence: No changes here. Personally I'd like visuals that better indicate how big the turbulence bubble is around me but no big deal.
Tornado: Instead of randomly spawning the tornadoes and having them move around on there own will, while having to focus on trying to move them, have them spawn in a formation around her and stay in place. One in front, one on each side, and one behind. This way they act as a more defensive ability that can be placed near objectives. Have the augment make them smaller, but they follow her around and circle around her.
I don't think divebomb should remain as is. It's always been a relatively subpar ability and as such needs a dire revamp. My suggestion on the matter makes it more useful and intuitive as you can use it in any direction as opposed to just down. It allows more versatility instead of corralling the ability. Plus, airborne-bulldozer!
On 3/21/2018 at 8:56 AM, crimson42 said:I bought the new prime set, - Zephyr P
The prime model looks damn cool.
But I was not prepared for how useless her abilities were,
I’m actually confused with this frame, because, I’m not sure what she is suppose to be?
Her “stongest” ability “4” is a bunch of tornados that just randomly moves around. Good in tight corridors, less good in open spaces.
A personal wish would be to give Zephyr an ability to Summon an Eagle that destroys everything, but that just my imagination.
This is kinda the thought I expected when the rework came out. "Why did I buy this? What even is this?" Her mechanics are not terrible, but they lack genuine cohesion.
On 3/21/2018 at 12:10 PM, Caelward said:Zephyr's a fast reaction frame.
Her Kit has aspects of movement, CC and personal defense.
She is able to move around very quickly. Her Turbulence lets her act with impunity in most situations and she has a couple CC methods to allow her to reach a point and get a job done with little interference.
She's great if you like doing solo work or if you like being able to do things like rescue downed allies in a huge mess of enemies. I've actually done solo interception missions with her more than a few times because she can CC one point and zip between other other points so quickly and easily.
But generally with Zephyr, it's about the movement.
She's a mobility frame that's hampered in the vast majority of the game unfortunately, hence my suggestion to change how tailwind currently functions into something more in line with her theme and kit. The tailwind rework alleviates that issue almost entirely.
On 3/21/2018 at 12:52 PM, Borg1611 said:I like the ideas in this thread. I, like many others, suggested a variation of a tail-wind you could toggle on awhile back. That's what a lot of Zephyr players really want. I definitely think being able to go into a mode like that quickly and quickly stop/enter a hover is much better than a slow charge into a low duration hover. The hover can be useful on the plains when doing bounties, but even then it's very slow and not worth a mod slot for casting speed. Being able to go into a fast tailwind and stop it into a hover would feel like a faster and more fluid control than what we have now. It would also feel better when flying than repeatedly pressing 1. The change to rolling out of tailwind recently was nice, but definitely not enough to give us the control we need.
In my tailwind idea I also got a little creative and added some additional controls while in "flight mode" such as pressing left and right click to do a sharper turn left and right and something like alt fire to do a quick u-turn. Basically adding some Star Fox style controls to it since those buttons aren't doing anything during tailwind anyway. Not really necessary, but it would be neat in larger open areas and possibly allow you to navigate flying indoors without breaking flight if combined with your slower base speed idea.
Activating the tailwind flight mode should definitely be fast, like a long-press, the slow charge mechanic should just go away.
While I mostly like turbulence, I think they should remove its scaling with range (for the size of that bubble) so that you don't have to maintain a certain range for the ability to have any function at all. At the very least it should have a minimal range that it won't go below so that it always works even with negative range. The augment should also provide a buff to party members over a larger base range and then scale with range.
I'd also consider allowing Turbulence to be re-cast while active, as many abilities in the game should be that currently are not. Personally, I think it would be better to just be a toggle that has an identical cost over time as the duration version and has a cost that scales with efficiency and duration to the same end result in energy cost over time, but having the drain not disable any form of regeneration, just counter it. People are usually against that because they think it's too outside of the norm, but Equinox has a similar ability already and it's a more convenient way of doing things than making us look down to the corner of our screen to look at a timer to re-cast every so often (which isn't anymore engaging and doesn't create interesting gameplay, it's just an inconvenience and adds to how poor the UI is).
I also really like having one large Tornado rather than these smaller ones that just fling things around. It reminds me of one of Storm's big powers in Marvel Heroes (Typhoon). Trying to make use of Tornadoes in their current state just doesn't work well. I think the singular version should be the main way it works and the augment left as the way to split it up. It could also have a decent size "suck zone" that slowly pulls things in at a distance and faster as they get closer to it (bosses can be immune) that scales with range.
If they don't do that they should at least make the tornadoes hold onto enemies better now that we can shoot them to do damage. It's a wasted mechanic if they just hold onto them for a second and fling them off. Making them larger with air bust could also make them hold onto enemies better so that that interaction serves some actual purpose.
TLDR: Good ideas, especially giving us better control over tailwind. I'd add that Turbulence should be made to function at any negative range so you don't have to keep it above a certain % to have any function at all. I'd also make it re-castable while active or give it an even more convenient activation method as mentioned above.
I agree wholeheartedly. Tornado is kind of a total mess, tailwind is busted, airburst is interesting but lackluster, and turbulence is still the effectively perfect move in the kit.
On 3/21/2018 at 1:54 PM, EchoesOfRain said:You know, the original Zephyr had some sort of "Hover/Flight mode" before people started suggesting it.
-Gale Force
Zephyr launches himself into the air and is airborne for a period of time. During this time Zephyr floats above the ground at a specific height and the player can control his movement via the WASD keys, or thrust forward and aim the direction with the mouse. Each keystroke Zephyr will thrust in that specific direction until the abilities timer is out; down, forwards, backwards, left, and right. Or the player can not press any direction and only hover in place. Melee is impossible during flight, but flight sharply increases speed and firing rate only for Zephyr himself. Great for managing large open tile sets, rushing to downed teammates, reaching loot and secrets, or gaining tactical advantage for firing from above. Note: If the player uses Gale Force on higher ground then flies over terrain where the ground is lower and thus is suddenly 'higher' than before, Zephyr will slowly glide down to the specific height.
-Stretch increases distance covered with each single thrust in a direction.
-Continuity increases the time spent airborne before landing.I think this is more how Hover should function. Not a stationary suspension, and nothing at all like Archwing controls. This concept is a bit old, though, and I'd like to add my own little twist to it.
Holding the 1 skill will activate Zephyr's Hover for a duration, changing up Zephyr's movement capabilities. During this time, Zephyr will float slightly off the ground, or suspended in midair. Zephyr is free to move with WASD as if she were walking on the ground. If moving while in the air, she will slowly descend as she travels, resulting in a glide. Zephyr has infinite Bullet Jumps while Hover is active so that she can re-position herself with ease. Rolling during a Hover will allow Zephyr to shift forward, backward, or to either side more smoothly and without disrupting any actions such as shooting or reloading. Zephyr can Tailwind while Hovering to quickly travel in any direction, or to assault the enemy. If Zephyr charges up Tailwind while Hover is active, Tailwind will end with a glide that's carried by Tailwind's momentum.
So with this, Hover would feel more like a natural extension to Zephyr by improving her overall movement. The movement won't get clunky or even step on Titania's shoes since it doesn't use Archwing controls. If the floatiness of the ability bothers players, they have the freedom of easy positioning with a Bullet Jump ready at all times. While it doesn't have a "hold to keep flying in one direction" (which I personally don't think the skill needs) it does have a glide that can carry the player over longer distances by carrying Tailwind's momentum. This should have everything that a "flight mode" enthusiast would want.
More freedom the better in my eyes. As I've said my goal is cohesion and diversity of play. We should be able to play each frame in more than just a handful of ways and unfortunately Zephyr is a one-two trick pony on how she can be used.
4 hours ago, Thaylien said:Okay, I'm of the firm belief that DE didn't put in the free-movement hover mechanic of the original thread from the start for a reason, known only to them, and that the current hover is the closest we'll get to it. That aside... Drain.
Energy Drain functions (and I hate that 'channeled' has become the term for them, because Channeling is the melee function and this confusion is what caused Zenurik's Inner Might on Focus 2.0 to be called the next OP node until people were very carefully reminded that it was Melee Channeling...) are a nerf.
I'm not talking in hyperbole here, the Energy Drain mechanic is put onto an ability in order to be a deliberate limitation on the power of that ability, just a big drawback that says 'hey, as long as you're using this, you can't gain energy from Abilities, Plates, Regen... anything apart from Orbs and the Rage mechanic'. Zephyr isn't all that energy hungry right now, but with Turbulence and Tornado not falling under the same '50% cost decrease when in the air' umbrella, it can get expensive to keep up your best casts. Especially when Fleeting Expertise is such a massive detriment to her abilities... I can't wait for Primed Streamline...
Anyway, try not to give Zephyr (in fact, any frame in my opinion) any Drain casts, if at all possible. Unlike Nekros, who has actual 'drain per item' effects that allow him to regen energy between casts, Zephyr would have to stump for the play 'energy per second' type, and that would be serious trouble if you were actually in need of Turbulence, but couldn't because you were constantly losing more energy than you picked up... A long base Duration cast is usually more energy efficient, and even if it isn't you can still get more energy back between casts than you could with a consistent drain blocking the main energy regen functions.
Other than that, go wild with the theory crafting! Have fun!
Max efficiency and decent duration would lead to 1.25 energy per second, every other second of tic during use and a primed flow will at rank 8 nets you four hundred energy. As for the energy drain, well I guess you'd just have to build carefully and/or not use the ability 100% of the time(even though I use razorwing on titania literally all the time to no ill effect due to my build)
3 hours ago, Archeyef said:Thanks for using my comment as a springboard for your rant. Justified or not, I think you should maybe have read just a little more of what I said before going off, because you seem to have missed some of what I said.
I'm aware of what channeling, or draining, or toggling, or whatever word you want to use, is for in abilities, and that's why I included it. I felt I was making the ability a little too strong by having it grant immunity to knockdown AND the pseudo-stun animation lock of knock-back, as well as granting a cost reduction to all her abilities while in that state. It is there specifically because it's a nerf, to balance out what might otherwise be considered too strong an ability for too low a cost.
You are aware, also, that the duration stat affects toggled ability drain, right? You can build Zephyr, under the suggested abilities, for high duration, without efficiency mods like Fleeting Expertise, and get to a pretty negligible drain rate. Then throw on streamline to get even better drain. You never even have to touch Fleeting Expertise with this.
^this
If I missed anyone in the thread (which I most likely did) I'm sorry. I'm pretty sick and work is....active. That being said I think we've got some good ideas rolling around here.
Now, I must be clear on something: I am adamant about a flight mechanic being included as a mainstay in her kit, and I will not budge from that stance. In my eyes there is no substitute nor valid excuse as to why the ability fails to exist on the frame that is 1: A wind themed frame that 2: is covered in flight surfaces and 3: Resembles a predatory bird(has talons) with a kit that is 4: three quarters of the kit themed after aviation terms and most importantly 5: Has a burst flight mechanic already present in her kit since release.
I don't want target fixation to be as useless as it is right now. It has amazing potential that until something is done with tailwind, will never be met.
If done correctly, This system can, and I'm willing to bet my account on it, that the player base would become enthralled with as flight offers new avenues of approach for play.
Divebomb as is and has been, is booty. With my suggestion, it's no longer a single direction skill that only does literally one thing in one area. It becomes a tactical skill that has zero detriments to it (if implemented correctly) as you'll have greater versatility to the ability itself.
I'm much more flexible on air burst as it has immense potential, but I see less issues with AB than I do with TW, thus TW is and has been my main focus.
Tornado as I laid out could become a much more useful and reliable skill, but tweaking is needed. Hopefully DE is tracking this thread, and personally I'd love for them to weigh in on this so we can get some perspective from their side of the table. I have tomorrow off work so I'll be much more ready to respond as needed, provided I'm not hacking up a lung.
Thank you all for participating in the thread so far, and I look forward to more words and suggestions from you all.
@Azamagon in regards to pressing "S" to initiate hover from flight, that sounds....really good actually. I'll edit the OP tomorrow with a citation for you so people can weigh in on it.
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Sweet Jesus you all are gonna make a ninja have to write an omnibus for a response. Ok folks, I've got work early in the morning however I also get off work relatively early so here's what I'mma do. I'll respond tomorrow when I get offa work and handle as much as I can. Really loving the conversations going on here though. Ya'll are awesome.
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I'm heading to an all day orientation for the new job so I'll be out till around seven or eight pm California time. I'll respond to you all when I get home(if I have the energy) so as to give each of your posts the attention they deserve.
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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:
My understanding is that tornadoes are suppose to kinda sorta spawn where you're aiming... Which sounds neat... I'd also be okay if tornadoes spawned on me and spread outward.....
Instead.. They appear to be spawning where ever the absolute **** they feel like.
Also... Can there maybe be kinda like there's a charge attack on her jet pack, a charge ability where if you hold the ability button it charges, and maybe instead of sending a tornado somewhere, it spawns a single highly powerful tornado on you, maybe for a tanking alternative? Okay so frost makes bubbles. This would also be an area of denial ability. But where as frost bubbles are semi permanent, this is effected by a timer like normal tornadoes... Also maybe more add a little ember in that it follows her as long as she doesn't move too quickly (bullet jump and so on) things picked up by the tornado, the more continuous damage they all of them take. Maybe if you hit the button again in the middle of your tornado it shatters into four tornadoes that scatter out in four dirrections... All of this effected by the timer that already is in effect in game, it's not going to replace WOF or snowglobe, it just...grants her a little something given that currently her tornadoes work a little....weird....take a look at my thread. might be the answer you're looking for.
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Just now, Archeyef said:
Yeah, that's the idea. An "equal and opposite force" kind of deal.
that....that could look REALLY good, as well as be a fantastic function for inertial cancelling. Glad you stopped by on my thread!
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8 minutes ago, Archeyef said:
Perhaps Airbust could double up as an air brake. Cast Airburst for a hard-stop.
as in a complete momentum stopper in contrast to the momentum still carrying over from the flight of tailwind?
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Just now, Archeyef said:
Hm... Well, it depends on whether Zephyr gets flight or not. If Zephyr doesn't get flight, I would leave it in, since it's an optional feature of the ability. But if Zephyr does get her wings, then I think it should be removed because at that point, it really doesn't add much unless you really want to speedrun. It just adds more complexity to an increasingly complex ability. I tend to follow a doctrine of simple elements, complex interactions. Not to mention, frames already slow down when aiming, so this just seems superfluous no matter what. I suppose that comes down to how "slippery" archwing-aiming is.
Well considering the stock planned flight speed I see your point. Also taking into account how fast she moves during the cast of tailwind any aiming would have to be done in what effectively amounts to a strafing run huh.
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1 minute ago, Archeyef said:
Hm, let's see...
Provides true flight without stepping on Titania's exalted state or necessarily requiring new mechanics: Check
Addresses the Tornado issue without severely altering the spirit of the ability: Check
Maintains the spirit of the frame: Check
Yup, meets my criteria for a decent Zephyr rework concept. You have my support, for whatever it's worth. I question whether keeping Hover Mode a part of the ability is necessary within this concept, but I also don't have any issue with it staying.
Thank you for taking the time to read through my post, I very much appreciate it. As far as the hover, I can see some merit to it but as it currently sits within the kit I personally find it useless. So I figured why not find a way to take something useless and make it useful and this is what I came up with.
That being said, what suggestion would you have for the hover mechanic if you had a say in the matter? Would you remove it, tweak it? The more active a discussion on here that we can get the better the outcome will be I feel.
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Just now, CoreXCZ said:
And we will wait for more years since DE focuses all resources on Venus landscape which will be broken just as Plains of Eidolon.
I agree Zephyr needs proper rework, she's one of my favourite frames and I enjoy playing her. Unfortunately, when I see reworked Dark Sectors from stream, I want to cry since they had years to make them good. If that's example of how reworks will look for everything then it's better to keep things as they are. Same goes for raids, once we get them back, they will be ruined, no longer as enjoyable as before.
I fear that if Zephyr will get proper rework we want, she will be way worse than she is now. Past experience, we all know how reworks messed up some thing already.
Thus the reasoning to be on the developers case about what issues are prevalent and how best to fix them with our experiences on them. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if those of us who take issue with the current state of affairs of her kit just sit by silently while people are claiming it to be amazing, which direction do you think the developers will take? So until such time as a developer says "we're happy with how she is and we're not changing her" I shall continue being an overly annoying thorn in their side.
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2 minutes ago, CoreXCZ said:
Ehm, ehm, she will get proper rework one day so just sit down and wait.
I've been waiting for years. She's already got the table so no reason at all to not bring this up.
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Yes folks, it's me again. It's been a minute but I'm back again to throw my two cents into the frame I love and adore to try to get her to where I feel she should be thematically and mechanically.
So, that said let's just jump right on in.
We're going to review her current kit's strengths and weaknesses in detail, and in doing so I'll make my suggestions on where she can be fixed in such a way that can accommodate as many desired play-styles as possible.
So lets start with the bane of all that is joy and happiness for me in regards to her kit: Tailwind. Tailwind as most of you reading this will likely know, is a dual function skill that works one of two ways: press 1 for instant cast to rocket at relatively high speeds in the direction of the cursor, or hold 1 to charge up for a hover that has you sitting in the air for roughly ten seconds.
- Strengths: High mobility beyond parkour systems that allows for large distance of travel, as well as the ability to hold a particular altitude for a duration .
- Weaknesses: High duration builds which positively effect the better part of her kit(Turbiulence and Tornado) gimp the usefulness of Tailwind in the overwhelming majority of the games content(sans Plains). Hover offers zero mobility without the use of another action, being melee attacking to get out of the hover or casting tailwind again. I've been told rolling out of hover works as well but I've had mixed results, not sure if bug or not but I digress. High duration Tailwind works well on the plains, I'll admit that much outright as the play space is large and open enough to really house the ability effectively. The same cannot be said about the rest of the games content. High duration builds in tile sets will see you grinding your face into walls till the animation lock expires and the ability finishes its cast or worse, have you diving beak first into the chest of an enemy only to be melee hit and take substantial (if not lethal) damage that you have zero ability to defend against. The augment)Target Fixation) is genuinely impossible to capitalize on even with a max strength build, due to the nature of how tailwind currently functions as it requires you to pass by enemies and thus hit them with the ability to gain the effect which resets upon touching the ground. Meaning essentially it's a waste of a slot to use as you're never able to effectively even build around it.
This, is a mechanical failure in design. The current state of tailwind, whether one likes it above its former incarnation or not, leaves you slamming into walls, doesn't work very well with the vast majority of the game, defenseless against enemies until the duration ends and is only genuinely applicable in 1% of the game(The plains). Don't get me wrong here, the ability isn't trash, but it's a far cry from what it has the potential to be. So, How do we fix this? Simple: we re-arrange the existing mechanics of the current rendition of Tailwind for more cohesion and versatility. Here's what I have in mind.
- Remove the animation lock on tailwind. This in of itself would at least give more control to the player in regards to when they want the ability to end for the instant cast and prevent players from being at the mercy of corridors and enemies.No more three seconds of high-intensity wall inspections or getting brained by butchers/chargers who aren't here just lookin for a "good time".
- Tie the distance and rate of travel to power strength instead of duration. This allows for max duration builds that aren't gimping any of her skills. Tying Tailwind to strength also bolsters the effectiveness of Target fixation, when coupled with what else I have in mind.
- Take the charge mechanic for the hover, and revamp it to a persistent flight mode. The mechanics already exist in no less than three incarnations(Tailwind itself, razorwing, and archwing) so it's not that much of a switch as is. Limit the initial "flight speed" to a happy medium between the jog speed(moving forward without pressing sprint) and sprint speed. This allows for full control of flight without running the risk of slamming into things in narrow hallways. so for arguments sake a stock non thrust flight speed of say 1.05, and pressing sprint will give you the same speed as if you used the ability for its instant cast.
- Holding aim engages the hover mode. This allows for controller users to not be kicked to the metaphorical curb in terms of mapping. It also offers point break control for when you want to go from breakneck speeds to stopping on a dime for whatever reason. Pressing jump disengages the flight mode and normal warframe travel can be resumed.
- Make Divebomb be triggered on collision of enemy contact or hard collision. What I mean by this is if you're for example flying down a hallway with zero obstructions, and you glance off a wall divebomb is not triggered and you just kinda skitter alongside the wall until you rectify your vector(direction of flight). If you fly straight at the wall however, the AoE of divebomb is then triggered. Collision with enemies would also trigger the effect, however not impede the flight. This would essentially make Tailwind a highly mobile form of cc as well as allow for rapid tactical positioning.
- Edit: Instead of using aim to initiate glide, tapping s should engage hover and tapping s again should resume flight courtesy of @Azamagon
In summary: This rendition of Tailwind offers greater cohesion, control, mobility and crowd control without gimping the remainder of your kit in relation to the majority of the games content. It also allows for one to now effectively build around the augment while simultaneously turning Zephyr into an airborne bulldozer without taking an arm and leg to conjure up new systems to make it possible. It's mechanics that already exist in the kit as it currently is, just needs to be re-aligned.
Air burst: Second ability of the kit that centers around strong cc for cheap casts that allow for Zephyr to remove enemies from her faze to avoid melee damage.
- Strengths: Instant cast, wide AoE cc that forces knockdown of enemies that comes cheap and even cheaper in the air. It's great as a preemptive or reactive skill for halting enemy advancement or attacks.
- Weaknesses: lack of outright damage, sometimes triggers prematurely due to surface clipping or (rarely) goes straight through surfaces and fails to trigger at all.
Honestly not much to say about this ability from my end as it functions (fairly) well for what a cc frame should be should be using. Personally I feel it could do a bit more to possibly force a slash proc, but I'm honestly not sure and it's up for debate.
Turbulence: The "I don't care about guns shooting at me but plz dun hit meh wit yo melee" ability. Zephyrs immensely enjoyable defensive ability with a run speed increasing augment to boot.
- Strengths: Do you find yourself being shot in the face? Detron crewman got'cha down? Is that corrupted heavy gunner laying down a literal wall of bullets preventing you from safely murdering the ever living hell out of her? WELL LOOK NO FURTHER! What you need is TURBULENCE: THE GUN DENIER! Turbulence is effectively perfect in that it redirects projectiles away from Zephyr and has a very strong augment to accompany it(Jet Stream) for the purposes of evasion and/or jumping into the thick of the fight.
- Weaknesses: Melee and lor range builds. Yup, that's it. oh and AoE from enemies but that's player positioning more so than a fault on the ability itself in my opinion.
There really isn't much to change or suggest changing here without risking a lynch mob, so I'll refrain from what amounts to a useless movement and just agree that the ability is fine as is.
Tornado: Summoning a maelstrom of nasty is great as an "oh snap" button, and even more so now that it can be recast on demand alongside the damage mechanic that has been incorporated. Tornado, out of all the abilities in the kit that could use some tweaking needs the least amount I believe, but tweaking it needs none the less.
- Strengths: Hilarious crowd control, recastable, and monster levels of damage potential.
- Weaknesses: The ability has to be babysat in order to make the most out of it as it tracks to your cursor, the tornadoes hold enemies only so/so, and the wandering is still problematic to a slight degree in relation to terrain that isn't the plains.
How we fix: We make Tornado exactly as its name says: A tornado.Singular. One very large, stationary tornado with a massive draw radius that houses enemies within the funnel instead of casting them aloft on the outer rim of the ability to be dumped unceremoniously onto the dirt. This removes the need to monitor the ability, as well as having roving twisters going all over hell and high water looking for a baddy to blow around. Funnel clouds can be retrofitted to function as the tornado ability currently functions, with the ability to utilize air burst in tandem with tornado as it also currently does. What this means is that without funnel clouds on your loadout casting tornado will give you a massive singular tornado that holds enemies inside it, but with funnel clouds you get the ability as it currently functions with the option to spam air burst into it to merge them into the one gigantic tornado. Alternatively, it could be made so it's the other way around and the singular massive tornado be an augment? Either or in all honesty.
So, in closing what we have presented before you is a more solid, cohesive skill set that fits the theme with mechanics that match. You get a wind themed frame that's covered in flight surfaces(even has an empennage for a cod piece) able to actually dominate the skies and fulfill her role better than ever before. She becomes more versatile, and allows for multiple styles of play that doesn't remove anything from anyone, but instead gives to all.
All feedback is welcome, but keep it civil, and keep it logical. Remember: I don't like is not an acceptable argument in relation to the suggestion of how the frames issues are remedied by my plan. If you don't like it, that's completely fine. Just remember when posting a disagreement to ask yourself "how does this rework not fix her current and already existing issues".
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42 minutes ago, Konachibi said:
Well yeah I am overdramatising it a bit, but look at it from this point of view. Every other frame has 4 abilities that all function as intended. There may be a few minor bugs with or two warframe abilities but for the most part every single frame works the way they should.
Titania on the other hand doesn't have a single ability that is absent of some major and/or game breaking problems. Her 1 - 3 abilities, besides being glitchy, simply either don't function or aren't worth using, and while her 4 is a strong ability and works for the most part, it still has some serious issues, like sentinels not returning when turning it off, all kinds of issues that arise when being downed while using it, getting insta-killed on PoE because the game thinks she's an archwing etc.
When compared to every other frame in the game, yes, Titania is broken and unusable, because everything she can do, every other frame can do significantly better, more reliably, and practically bug-free.
As for me suggesting fixes for these issues... well...
Her 1 should have it's ranged doubled or tripled. It's WAY too small a radius for it to be used practically as a quick CC, plus the cast time needs to be severely reduced. Most warframes first abilities are meant to be quick-shot skills that either get out of a bad situation or do some damage. Titania's 1 doesn't do any of those things, it's impractical and will often get the Titania player killed because of how long it takes to activate. Also requires some bug fixing so that it will affect every enemy within it's range, instead of it completely ignoring some enemies for no apparent reason.
The effects of her 2 need to be drastically increased. Dust should start at maybe around 30% and then go up from there to a maximum of 80%. That sounds really high, but in missions like high level sorties, enemies will still easily hit you with an 80% evasions. Thorns should start at 10% and increase in 10% increments up to 50% damage reflect. Titania isn't exactlythe tankiest frame, so even 50% of a level 80 napalm's damage would likely kill her, but at least the napalm would take a bit of a hit too. Entangle should also start at 10% and go up 10% each time to a maximum of 50%. That's still not as slow as Nova can do, but it will be a lot more noticable than a measly 25% speed reduction. Full Moon should probably be changed to something more practical. Companion damage doesn't amount to a lot unless someone is using a kubrow or a kavat, and the majority of players use sentinels, so maybe change it to decreasing everyone's recoil, starting at 10% and going up to 50%. Reduced recoil would be a god send for a lot of guns, and make the ability something Titania players would want to use. Another usefull QoL addition would be to add a miniature tribute symbol next to the names of enemies the Titania player mouses over so they know what kind of Tribute effect they would receive from that enemy. As for it having an AoE effect, that would likely be a good augment mod for the ability, each level increasing the amount of enemies hit by it by 1 to a maximum of 4 (base target + 3 augment targets).
Her 3 needs to tether the target in place instead of allowing it to float around. It's too uncontrollable as it is and more often than not it'll get out of sight before it gets any use. Also, enemies should be affected by it simply by being within it's radius, they shouldn't have to look directly at it for it to affect them. This would make it a good and usable CC, instead of the useless waste of energy it currently is. Also needs some bug fixing so enemies don't turn into 'ghosts' that do nothing, ospreys instantly exploding when it's cast on them making it a waste of energy and enemies rubberbanding all over the screen then vanishing when they're targetted by it.
Her 4 just needs some bug fixing and polish. While it functions fine as you're using it, being downed can cause numerous issues to the player, she needs to not be flagged as an archwing in PoE so the ability can actually be used there, and her razorwing butterflies probably need a teensie bit more health, since enemies at level 50+ usually kill them instantly
Her one has a massive range of modded properly. It doesn't need to be increased, it's fine as its. But fixes though, sure.
Pretty much agree with you on everything else now that we've gotten past the drama
Lets fix Zephyr once and for all
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I've taken her through sorties recently. It's doable sure, but you can't really use tailwind during the missions as it leaves you vulnerable during the duration of its cast. The re-cast of tornadoes although a massive QoL buff to her, isn't that great when the tornadoes chase off after god knows what forcing you to recast just to make it hit the enemies you're hoping it does. Add to that the turbulence effects although gorgeous, take a bit longer than desired which means you have to time your casts before entering rooms to maintain safety. All in all kinda bonkey.