4thBro

Oh - no way, I absolutely have my on topic answer. EMBER. Please remove this heat gauge thing, it's SO tedious to build it back up any time it drops. Just make it default to maximum ramp speed. I literally don't play her anymore because it's annoying to have to spam 4 about twenty times every time I activate a new Immolate.

I'll have to think about this after work, but for a top of my head SIMILAR topic, I'd love to be able to change the sound effects on a lot of my weapon skins to better match. Sorry - I owe you an on topic response later, lol.

My dude...... If you're bringing scripting and botting into the discussion, the ground you stand on vanishes. Couldn't I just throw Inaros into a survival and have him melee in circles for 20 hours with a bot? That's MORE reliable than a bot going Operator & whatnot. Give me a break... This is what I mean. You guys complain about what seems to me was some guy making a viral YT video, and then "fixing" it in the worst way possible, ignoring similar or worse issues, and then throwing the case in the basement, stamped as "resolved," where it'll never be looked at again. This is not the way.

Are we talking about, like... programming? No, I'm not assuming they can just make something that's true become false, or whatnot. But they CAN very easily just slap a x0 damage multiplier on your Frame if you're in Operator. Yes, they CAN do that, very easily. And I think at THIS point you're just nitpicking. You really do need to figure out your line in the sand. At what point do you no longer care if people have invuln Warframes? It can't be always. Because, at this rate, you'd complain if an entire player slot was being spent on giving its allies +5% credit drop wHiLe BeiNg iNvULneRabLe. Seriously. Who the freak cares, dude? WHY are we in this thread defending this mechanic so vehemently? It's SO weird. There are literal game modes where literal Frames literally can't participate. All because somebody farmed some Rubedo, SLOWER than you can, but they put in less effort than you did, so... therefore... they deserve nothing??? It's SO WEIRD! It's so weird... What the hell, is this not EXACTLY what you're been saying is what the whole mechanic is trying to PREVENT, that you SUPPORT??? It's like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS! ... You're gonna nitpick my defensive Mirage example, and you're gonna throw Trickery at me?? 15% chance to go invisible?? AND for Void Cascade, you're suggesting me this?? I'm supposed to spend literal minutes fishing for the Trickery proc, while I got Cascades building up? Yeah, that aint it. Omg, thank you. Maybe I'm not in the Twilight Zone after all.

Hey, at least you stepped up and named some things. Finally someone did. Of course, my responses are: 1) These won't outfarm an active player. But more importantly... 2) Why not fix this by having anything from your Frame deal 0 damage while you're in Operator? This causes ZERO problems in other parts of the game, while the current "fix" not only causes problems in other parts of the game, but it also technically STILL ALLOWS people to sit in Operator and do these things still. As I keep being reminded, you DO get +90% damage reduction, right? And also as I keep being told, this SHOULD be enough to keep me alive, right? Well it goes both ways, not just the way that's against my position. If that free reduction can keep me alive while I'm trying to do Void Cascade and my Frame is outputting zero damage, then it should certainly be able to keep people alive that are doing this "afk void mode" strategy while their Frame DOES have damage output. ... ?????

Yeah, that's great. I've also "come up with alternative creative answers," but some things don't have an answer. Mods and 1 Helminth ability can only do so much. The core Frame still needs to cover holes of its own. Okay, let's build a Mirage tanky. - Arcane Blessing, easy big HP. (Although HP is the single least important defensive factor, but having a buffer amount is nice.) - Yolo, let's say Arcane Ultimatum, we'll play Naramon for reliable finishers. (Or maybe Bronco, whatever.) - Hell, let's also say Health Conversion. (And with this and Arcane Blessing going on, we're going to magically pretend Health Orbs are flowing in just fine, even though that's far from the reality in a natural setting without a way of forcing them to drop.) - Adaptation, of course. - Now for a creative touch, and extra layer of a defensive multiplier, let's go Quick Thinking. We'll put Flow, and we'll put Gladi Finesse, too. We'll do Pain Threshold for the exilus. - What to Helminth? Normally, due to the Quick Thinking, I might say we go Nourish and Zenurik. However, we've already asked a genie to grant us a good supply of Health Orbs. So we'll say we also don't run into Energy issues, and we'll go straight to Null Star for ANOTHER big layer of a defensive multiplier. So let's take a look at what we have on Mirage! - 2725 armor, which is roughly 90% reduction. - Quick Thinking + Gladi Fine, which is 66% reduction (if your energy is being hit). - Adaptation, which is up to 90%. - Null Star, which is up to 90%. - And, of course, Eclipse, which is up to 95% reduction. (We asked our genie for a 3rd wish of having ability strength. With a build like this, god knows where we have the time to also get strength, range, efficiency, and duration, but that's what the genie is for! By the way, Null Star needs 300% duration, lmao.) THIS IS A TON OF REDUCTION! ... But is it??? I mean, sometimes, yes, it will be. But outside a sheet of paper, what are we looking at? The armor is admittedly nice. Although, heat procs would halve it, which suddenly makes it a very low amount of armor in the realm of high level enemies. Quick Thinking mechanic could be a good layer, but Mirage has 638 energy, and if we imagine that's our health pool instead (which it would be), then suddenly that doesn't seem very high, now, does it? Plus we'll be getting staggered. And although Pain Threshold can help, it won't stop us from dying to the bigger hits, like a Bombard or something. Or a Thrax. Adaptation is nice in theory, but it has to ramp up. It's merely a complimentary source of defense. If the first few hits kill you, then it doesn't matter, right? Null Star is hefty, but it requires huge amounts of duration. Luckily, our genie granted it to us! But even still, as enemies get close to you, you lose the charges rapidly. Additionally, you lose them FASTER with more ability range, and gutting your range means Slight of Hand will reach nobody, severely hurting your CC capabilities, forcing you to constantly take the brunt of all incoming damage. And losing even just a mere 5% reduction per charge means you're very likely to die just for missing 2 or 3 charges. And Eclipse? I mean... oh look, you're in the light, Eclipse does nothing, please come again. There's only so much you can do. And we haven't even touched up on how you plan on healing your Frame. You might have 1500 HP with Arcane Blessing, but if you can't instantly heal it on command with no cooldown, it just means you'll die to two Detron Crewman shots instead of one. (This is why HP is the least important defensive layer. Going from 300 HP to 1500 HP is merely the equivalent of gaining 80% damage reduction against a single instance of damage, if you're not immediately healed to full HP after that instance.) All of this being said, it's hard enough to survive on an HP Mirage as an active player defending themselves. But you wanna talk about an HP Mirage facetanking level 1000+ enemies while you spend ~10 seconds doing a Void Cascade node??? Yeah, I promise you, that free 90% damage reduction aint gonna buy you any tickets. Now, do me a favor. Don't cherrypick the specific defensive layers I've chosen for this example. The reality is that, however it is that YOU might build a Frame like Mirage, the fact of the matter is that a Frame needs to be able to cover certain departments on its own. This is ESPECIALLY true for building a Frame defensively via HP (versus shield gating). Helminth only has Null Star for defensives, minus several good armor options, but EVERYONE can get pretty good armor pretty easily. But big armor isn't even remotely close to good enough. And so, all you're left with is a bunch of makeshift mods that not only don't reliably provide you with what you're even equipping them for, but also don't leave you with any room for actual ability stats. It just doesn't work. Again - yes, it works for Hydron. But, no, it does not work for high level game modes. And so, that's why a lot of Frames play shield gating. (Trust me, I much prefer non-shield gating gameplay, but a lot of Frames have to do what they have to do.) And then, shield gaters get punished for going Operator, because now their squishy Frame is exposed and vulnerable, all because you guys got mad at the guy that farmed Rubedo at a speed of 10 per hour with... Equinox, or something. Even though they could just as easily spam CC everything instead of sitting in Void Mode. But let's just cherrypick only one of the hundred different things they could do. And change it in one of the worst ways of the options available. And now let's defend all of these bad decisions on the forums... Because things aren't ever allowed to change... Because change is scary... AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH, okay, going to bed again, guys, lmao. Always fun. Always a pleasure. Cheers! :)

Nothing in Steel Path is even challenging, if you play casually. As long as you "extract at 5" (or whatever the equivalent), enemies never got strong, and the only thing that happened is you got some extra rewards. In my OWN opinion, players should default SP so that they get to enjoy the fun of planning some kind of build that at least cares a little bit. Normal Mode missions are like... you can practically go in with 8x ele mods for no reason whatsoever, and you'll absolutely dominate. How is that fun? Don't you at least want to feel like you designed something good? And, I mean - maybe not, lol. Maybe that's just a Me thing. Anyway... You keep saying things like "effortless results," and "I don't think a player should be invulnerable." But let's try to keep this fallacy-free, please. Those are obviously strawman arguments. It's not like the players are invulnerable. That's an intentionally-misleading statement. Nobody is zipping around in a Warframe, blasting things for 20 million DPS in an AoE, all while invulnerable, now, are they? No. If they're invulnerable, they're sitting there, idle, literally doing nothing at all. For the 100th time... Please, tell me what crazy strong ability can be left enabled on a would-be invulnerable Warframe that can kill level 1000+ enemies in a timely manner. Please. Please. Tell me. If you're unable to tell me, and decide to just frisbee the next fallacy at my forehead, then just know that we'll all see it being done in plain sight. This back & forth with the fallacies has really killed the discussion. I hate that conversations can never be held because of that.

I think I'm being trolled. 90% DR isn't anything on its own. Level 1000+ enemies kill you through that with a single shot, and, hell, a level 200 Thrax will one-shot you through that, too. It's not "unmodded EHP," it's shield gating survival, which obviously can't be done while in Operator. Mirage, along with MOST Frames in this game, can't build Health survival that allows you to live against high level enemies. Mirage has no inherent survival to speak of (since Eclipse isn't survival to speak of), so going off of mods alone (and a single Helminth, with Null Star being the beefiest survival possible through it, while also being inconsistent) isn't going to cut it. I'm legitimately assuming most people in here are either Normal Moders, or Extract At 5'ers, and that's fine & all, but don't tell me that it's a "skill issue" that Mirage can't facetank enemies while my Operator deals with Void Cascade objectives every ~20 seconds. I actually think I'm being trolled. I'll take a step back from this thread for a bit, lol.

Void Cascade!! You HAVE to go Operator for the mission objective.

??? Because I'm trying to play Mirage, and when Void Cascade forces me into Operator mode, my Frame dies? Now I'm some kind of player that deserves to be punished? For... ... trying to play Mirage, I guess??? Or... what, exactly? Mirage buffs don't even buff other players, lmao. (Unless you augment for Eclipse, which I don't, and maybe the game should check for that or something??? Maybe??? Before punishing me??? Also, Hall of Mirrors makes me vulnerable, and that NEVER buffs allied players???) Like, you just threw out this total zero-accountability flame post. Care to elaborate on what you meant, there?? Lol.

Honestly, though, yes, I do need more specific. What specific ability can you turn on, and it kills Steel Path enemies faster than an active player can? (lol) Yes, let's pretend Frames are invuln on Operator. Okay, you throw on all the Strength possible. Let's even pretend all abilities have 0 energy cost. YOU KNOW WHAT, let's pretend you have 10,000% Ability Strength. What ability is this? What ability kills SP enemies faster than the average player can with a Nu'ub Kannin Tenet Arca Plasmor? Because, keep in mind, these Void Mode Campers aren't ACTUALLY afk. They're still there, at their computer, managing their Operator energy, buffing on a timer, etc etc, they're still doing things, lmao. So, the point with that is that it's not like the player is going to work, coming home 8 hours later and they have +200 Steel Essences because the Acolytes couldn't stand a chance against this Super Amazing Mystery Ability that also creates Life Support in your pocket every 10 seconds and costs 0 Energy. It's just such a weird-ass complaint, man. All this resistance in this thread is honestly surprising, weird, and kind of Twilight Zoney, if I'm being honest. I dunno, dude. It's weird. I just want to play Void Cascade on Mirage, LMAO, that's one of the biggest things that sparked my creation of this discussion thread. And no, it's not viable to "find a safe place to park Mirage" every time I have to handle the main objective. That's totally ludicrous to even suggest, honestly. Maybe I'll just ask the Cascade timer to stop and wait for me while I parallel park every 25 seconds.

So, when I sarcastically said "Rubedo," that was unironically the answer? Lol. In short, they're farming resources that 1) have no impact on the platinum market, and 2) resources that most players have in mass just from playing the game normally. If you really step back and look at it, it's - well, it's actually exactly as someone else already put it. "People using the best method to farm." (Granted, it certainly wasn't THAT, by a long shot, but let's just press onward with that presumption.) That being said, there will always be a best method. Do we just keep nerfing the best method until there's just no more methods and things are unfarmable? Really look at what you yourselves are saying here in this thread. What do you care if someone farmed tons of Rubedo by sitting in Void Mode? - Can you really not outfarm somebody doing this by playing actively? (How are they pushing AHEAD of you with this?) - Does it affect you in any way, what they're able to farm and how they do it? (And in the same token, does the "fix" to them doing this affect you? Spoiler: These answers are No and then Yes, in that order.) - Why does it matter if somebody chooses to play in a boring way and then stops playing the game because of it? EVERY game has this. And every game will always have this. There's no way to force people to play in a way that will objectively keep them interested and engaged, and there are many reasons for this that I shouldn't have to go into. Okay, so the "specific" answer to what people are farming is... resources that drop off enemies, and infinite game mode rewards. None of these have any value whatsoever. Maybe... Condition Overload used to, I guess, but that's all I can really think of. My next specific question: What was the strategy? Specifically. What was the setup? One guy plays Frame A, while the other three people play Frames B C and D? What are the Frames? Guide me through the playstyle, step by step. So you say 3 people sit in Void Mode forever, but you can't do that forever, so what do they do while recovering Operator energy? In what way was this strategy super effective compared to 4 people actively playing? I want specifics, because without specifics, it's just hearsay, "This was super good, trust me." I've heard multiple times in this thread, "Frame vulnerability isn't too bad, just find a place to hide your Frame while you go Operator." But the very same thing can be said about these AFK buffers. You say they "abused Frame invuln while camping Void Mode," but if hiding your Frame works so well, allegedly anyway, then why couldn't the AFK buffers just buff their teammates and hide somewhere safe for the time being? Maybe we need to nerf hiding? Maybe we should just remove all team buffs!! (Do you see where I'm going with ANY of this?)

I'm going to ask this again, because I didn't get an answer from anyone: WHAT, exactly, were people "cheese farming" while sitting in Void Mode? Specifically. This is the discussion's current question.

I grinded my first 5 levels of Circuit, got Paris Prime Incarnon, maxed it out, and I'm loving it! The SECRET is... Split Flights! This actually makes it feel so much better, giving it a bit of a spread instead of being a super narrow line of death. Amazing mod, love it. (Kinda wanna try it on Mirage now, just for a massive barrage!)

How in the actual universe is popping into Operator for a Zenurik rebuff and dealing zero damage for 1.5 seconds just as annoying as popping into Operator for a Zenurik rebuff and DYING? Come on, man. What??? Yes, yes I WOULD rather deal with that. Or, rather, they're not disabling, they're just dealing 0 damage, since you said that AFK damage is the issue. "Remembering to cancel your abilities" aint really it, now, is it? Say you're playing Ember. You're supposed to reset your built-up Heat Gauge every time you Operator? There's a lot more attached to turning off certain abilities than just "hitting the button". A lot of abilities have things like... snapshots, or mechanic build-up, etc. So, no, it's not just a matter of "remembering to disable your stuff". So. Who cares? Though? Lol. Honestly. So, people already do things like this. Okay. But we're gonna keep the "fix" to THIS one particular issue, even though this "fix" hurts other parts of the game? And what's even "cheese" about it? Tell me, what super amazing valuable thing were people AFK farming in mass, before it was fixed by making Frames vulnerable during Operator? Rubedo? Give me a break, man. It sincerely feels like all you're really saying is, "Somebody got something while AFK, and that aint right, so no matter what, that needs to be changed, and at any cost!" Because, realistically, that's what I'm gettin' here in this thread. And, hey, so be it, I guess, right? If I'm the only one that thinks this should be different, then oh well. It's just... the arguments in here are very lackluster to me. Whether it's "oh it's been like this forever so why change it," or, "90% damage reduction is plenty to keep you alive" (it's not, btw). Just kind of lackluster, in my opinion... Kind of disappointing. I feel like there are a lot of pitchforks from casual-level players that simply don't like the idea that somebody does something while AFK, and the fact that nothing relevant can be farmed by this method just goes under the rug. If I'm farming basically anything in this game, I'll take a person contributing to 10% of the objective over some guy quadrupling my Frame's power but being AFK. I'll take that every single time. And if I could change the game so that I'm able to play Void Cascade on every Frame, but in the process, allow some guy to buff his friends for free while staring as his screen as he sits in Void Mode for hours, then I'll also take that trade. Every. Single. Time. I dunno, guys. I'm going to bed, but maybe consider lowering the pitchforks and bettering the game for people actually playing it. Or in other words, pick your battles. Maybe hurting the people that... [did what, exactly? I'm still not sure]... at the expense of shutting out a wide array of legitimate Frames & builds from game content... maybe that wasn't the battle to pick?

See - I don't agree with this. How do you maximize the buffs? Blind Rage. How do you maximize survivability? Blind Rage. Done & done. You're not sacrificing anything. Hmm. A decent point, to an extent. Warframe can VERY MUCH be a one-man show. If one person is able to clear the area all by themselves at all times, then there's not much for the other 3 people to do, right? And it's often a race to be the one that clears it first. And, typically, one person is winning that race constantly, charts are like 70% damage done by one guy, etc. However... Again, that's kind of more like the Hydron scenario. To again use Void Cascades as a good example, everyone in that game mode DOES have to split up, handle things apart from other players, etc. (Railjack is also a good example for this scenario, off the top of my head.) In these, there's no feasible way for someone's job to be "AFK buff bot me, bro". You just won't do well as a team that way, no matter how powerful you can make one guy.

I mean... I argue, in response, that there's no reason to be "dying every 2 minutes," or whatever the scenario. I could also argue that... no, perhaps dying every 2 minutes is still better, because that's 2 minutes of contributing to a lot of the... killing, or whatever the objective may be. However, I think this branch-off is a bit derailing, or at least potentially? ---------- Perhaps some organization is in order here. Pros: Stops AFK Buff Botting. Cons: Makes game modes that require Operator miserable. Feel free to suggest additions to these two lists, this is our starting point. And my thoughts on them are... Do you believe the Pro(s) outweigh the Con(s)? I could probably think of more Cons, and not more Pros, and even with the 1:1 that we have right now, I'd say my answer is "no". AFK Buff Botting is a very loose game mechanic abuse. Very casual level, in my opinion. Low threat level, if you will. Maybe it looks "overpowered" in Hydron, but is this really what high level players are gonna do? (Absolutely not.) And yet, if you look at the Con(s), we have actual game modes suffering for it. Is this worth it, in your opinion?

Because I can guarantee you that a Frame providing a buff and then AFK'ing isn't nearly as strong as a Frame providing a buff and then playing. Your discussion sounds more like you believe the buffs are too strong, not that AFK'ing in Operator is too strong. (Do you see the difference that I am defining here?) Same as I'm responding to the other poster. Providing buffs to other players isn't "sacrificing your survivability" in any way EXCEPT for when you go Operator. And, again, an active player providing buffs is far stronger than an AFK player providing buffs. (And since you can't actually go AFK because you have to maintain Operator's Void Mode, what are we really talking about here? It feels like somebody probably made a popular YT video once, and their friends were "AFK" Operators, and everyone went crazy about it, but nobody really stopped to think about it.) And especially with Shield Gating, it's not like a "Buff Bot" would struggle to survive in endgame content by not AFK'ing in Void Mode, and ESPECIALLY especially with the kind of Energy that Nourish gives you. (And since we're talking about Buff Bots, of course Nourish will be included, right?) Nothing in this thread so far has remotely convinced me that I'm overlooking something here.

Why not? Using your entire player slot just to provide buffs while camping in Operator Void Mode can't possibly be considered "a problem that needs fixing". And, yeah, I do have high level content in mind. One of the biggest annoyances of this outdated game mechanic is how prevalent it becomes in the Void Cascade game mode, which not only makes you use Operator quite a lot (thus exposing your Frame constantly and unavoidably), but it also scales up the enemies at one of the highest rates in the game. It really highlights the issue with the mechanic.

Some abilities being active on your Frame while you are using Operator make your Frame vulnerable to being damaged. I say "some abilities" because there seems to be no real rhyme or reason as to which abilities cause this. I used to believe it was defensive abilities, however I recently discovered that Hall of Mirrors (Mirage's clones) also causes her to become vulnerable during Operator use. I ask you this: What good does this do for the game? If we can't really come up with a good answer here... ... ... may we please remove this grief-ass mechanic? Lol. To start the discussion, if I haven't already: If we were to say that it's the presence of an active defensive ability that causes your Frame to be vulnerable during Operator, I ask... why? Is that not backwards? Why punish players that are keeping a conscious mind on their defenses, while someone with zero defenses get to remain invulnerable? Think about that for a second. Pack 4 offensive abilities, remain invulnerable. Pack a defensive ability, get punished and get killed. Is that what we want? Because we're voting with our silence right now. Let's talk about this, please.

1] Cavalero 2] Cephalon Simaris https://strawpoll.com/QrgebRX6KZp

Yeah that's what I do. But you still can't just aim it straight up. You still bullet jump crooked due to the perspective.

Why?

Am I the only one that gets stuck for a few seconds at a time by wedging myself into a little groove in the floor? The only one that is always wasting 5 seconds of my life doing a ledge grab animation on some doorframe? The only one spending a full minute doing chain walljumps because I'm trying to hop into a window that has a protruding outline? You know, something like this being a total nuisance trying to get into, if I don't aim it precisely accurate on the first attempt. Or zooming forward on my way to extraction, and instead of smoothly going down this ramp, flying forward and ledge grabbing up onto this utterly useless little segment. Am I the only one that gets held up needlessly by all of this game's extra little nothings that are always jutting out from every which way? And even outside of constantly getting snagged by a doodad, even just this game's perspective causes me issues. My Frame is always at an angle, and trying to move "forward" is never actually forward, is it? Like... have you ever tried getting into this vent??? Succeeding gives you a bigger feeling of accomplishment than anything else in this game. But you can't just look up at it and jump, can you? You can't just put your aimer in the center and do a straight vertical bullet jump. No, not even close. You have to figure out how your crooked over-the-right-shoulder perspective is going to jerk you in a certain direction, and adjust accordingly. And this premise is constantly present, and making simple movement become cluttered with complications and misdirection. And WHY do I always get stuck at the top of these Corpus stairs??? If I run straight up these stairs, the very top step doesn't let me run it, and I have to jump over it. AM I THE ONLY ONE?????? So, I mean... I'm asking sincerely. Is it just me??? Is there some option I don't know about? Is there some mindset I don't comprehend? Or are there other people out there also feeling a clunkiness in this game's otherwise-great movement?