Dax-Kriegor

No, I didn't say I use ash as my nuke frame. I said I use ash as my MAIN, and that I have ALL THE FRAMES so believe me when I say you don't have a better nuke frame than me. And I never said ANYTHING about leaving enemies alive when nuking. What I DID say was that leaving the starting enemies alive and using CC is more effective for that mission type than nuking them and forcing more to spawn at other places. But you're arguing that regardless of level you should be able to one shot every enemy on the entire map, and pretending that doesn't sound absolutely insane. And you think newer players or people struggling with sp interception should be focusing on that more than control in a mission type that's literally built around control??? And let's be real here. If you legitimately cared about the people playing those missions getting good amounts of resources, you wouldn't have said previously that there's "no reason to stay past round 1" because you're literally advocating for players skipping the mission boosters. The worst part of this is that in the time I've been at work you could very easily have taken 5 minutes (assuming that our take a minute at start and another at finish for load times, and leaving you three minutes to do what hydroid2 could do in 1 minute because you've completely outed yourself as being ineffective at anything but murder) to play the mission type, on any bode, at any level, the way I described and see for yourself just how foolish your entire argument is. But instead of verifying what I'm saying you say here arguing the same wrong points and quoted me to keep making bad arguments. All you've done is proven, as others have already said here, that you don't even play the game. This is a complete waste of time, and I'm done. No matter how much you try to reason with a brick wall, it will always be as dumb as a brick. Don't quote me again, I won't be back.

No matter how many times you claim nuking is the best way to clear any mission type, I still more than once a week find players about to ragequit asking for help right as they're about to log off because they can't stand it, that either can't figure out interception at low levels or have gotten so used to that mentality that you appear to be stuck in, that either by flooding the map themselves or having the misfortune of ending up in squad with someone who does... And when I explain to them how interception works they are reluctant, as most people believe as you do that the point of the game is just kill everything as fast as you can because that's what they've been shown to do instead of playing how the game itself tells you to, and when I say just hold the 15 enemies at the start and let them live while you take all the points they don't understand how that will work against the 20, 30, 50 enemies at each of the other points so I have to explain to them that because you're not killing the first group of enemies that whole ass army they're afraid of never shows up. So I show them. And every time they're shocked and amazed to see it in action, I've even been asked if I'm hacking because how did I make it so effortless and why were there suddenly no enemies when before they were drowning in mobs? Well, the reason is simple: it's because people like you flooding the map and getting those lower level players swarmed by mobs that may be easy for YOU to handle, aren't necessarily easy for THEM to handle. What IS easy, however, is letting that small handful of enemies live but keeping them unable to do anything useful while you capture and dominate the map. And for the sake of feeling justified in your, frankly awful, play style you are causing them to have a horrible experience. And any play style that actively makes the game worse for the rest of the squad, especially by creating a detrimental experience for newer players, is NOT(!!!) better, objectively or anything. I understand you want to feel like your way is the best way, but it's really not in all cases. You literally are just arguing that making the game worse for others is somehow better than helping your squad succeed. And I'm making this point, again, as an ash main. Stealth, mobility, armor strip, nuking ... He's got it. What ash LACKS is crowd control. And that's why ash ISNT my preferred frame for interception where crowd control is the SUPERIOR way to clear the mission. Also, if I can deal over 30mil in one attack with a finisher that lasts less than a second, bypasses enemy defenses, and sets the base damage for a forced slash proc, and you can't see how that's effective at level cap... I really can't help you. I don't believe you have a frame that can hit harder than that because I don't have a frame that can hit harder than that, and I've got them all. So to be clear, while I CAN hit harder than you, I also can recognize that that's often NOT the best or easiest way to clear a mission, and I don't throw waves of mobs at other players just assuming they can handle it, when I see very often people getting frustrated by the play style you're advocating simply because nobody let them know there's better options. And if you're in spy vaults just nuking sensor drones instead of using stealth, you're just as much of a problem there, too. Because sensor drones ALWAYS trigger alarms when attacked, even if you destroy them in the first hit, and the game tells you as much. I had other things I needed to do last night rather than just repeatedly try to illustrate for you the same handful of points, but now it's time to get ready for work again, and with just 5hr sleep, tbh I don't even feel rested at all but I wake up only to see you're still making the same false argument here and it's becoming more of a chore to discuss this than I care to continue engaging in. Especially when repeatedly in his same thread you see multiple other people making points you disagree with, and when provided with statistics or concrete examples you continue to make the same poorly reasoned false arguments. I'm inclined to agree with others here that you really don't seem to play this game or understand how it works. If you're quite insistent to be wrong, keep on being wrong. But just remember that if all you do is nuke everything, then no you're not wishing that there were situations in the game where stealth or control are better options than slaughter. You're just disregarding every instance where they are the better options, and almost definitely often making the game worse for the people unfortunate enough to end up in squad with you And btw... "He said those are all the frames that are below Inaros who's in 31st out of 56 total. So, not really" no, he said inaros prime is 31st out of all frames prime and non prime, well more than 56. And the ones he mentioned in the post I replied to are all frames that are well regarded as being in good shape. I'm not saying they're meta frames, but they're all consistently useful frames and not ones that many people would generally regard as bad or needing a rework

Sorry to doublepost, but just wanna point out how priceless it is that all the frames you just mentioned are ridiculously popular

^sorry idk why this is here and I can't get rid of it "But again, that's the whole point is killing the enemies DOESN'T create any more enemies than you're already dealing with. The enemy cap is fixed per round, it doesn't increase based on how many you kill, unless you're talking about new waves spawning, but having to deal with more waves inherently implies you are able to kill them without issue. There's also the matter that most CC frames can only effectively cover a similar area to what a nuke frame can anyway, so it's not like the nuke frames are any less effective at point coverage than a CC frame, and if you're playing a nuke frame effectively the enemies should never be touching the control points to begin with to ever lose them, so it sounds more like your issue is with ineffective nuke frames, not the playstyle itself, which really only reinforces the idea that more firepower IS the better answer. Not to mention, there's still the matter that every enemy dealt with directly translates to more rewards, so assuming both styles are able to complete the mission, it is objectively more beneficial to gear towards killing faster rather than CC lock." Here you're either missing or ignoring what I'm saying. In interception, new enemies never spawn unless you kill the enemies on the field. Killing enemies causes them to spawn elsewhere and causes adds to spawn. ALSO elsewhere. So locking down enemies keeps them off the objectives while you can hold all 4 points. Nuking enemies causes other towers to be overrun with more enemies, while you're still just taking one point at a time and they're now taking the other 3, but in force. The reason so many people hate high level interception is because at a certain point, it DOES effectively punish the nuke everything play style, and even if you're strong enough to continuously nuke everything at the piint you're holding, you're actively punishing the rest of your squad for playing with you by forcing the enemies that COULD have been made harmless, plus the adds you spawned, to overrun the points you ARENT at. So while controlling the enemy SPEEDS UP the mission and eliminates any threat at other towers, nuking everything at one tower SLOWS DOWN the mission while making it a pain for other players to deal with the strongest enemy in the mission: the brainless nuke player. A cc frame, however is helping everyone clear the mission FASTER by preventing enemies from spawning at the other tower, since adds ONLY spawn when enemies respawn, and enemies ONLY respawn when they DIE. "No, the problem with Hydroid was that in the vast majority of content, the best he could do was delay a mission rather than progress it, similar to the issues Limbo has, but Limbo at least had other effectiveness as a safety net and worked really well with weapon-based combat with stasis. Again, the game directly rewards you for killing more enemies, it doesn't reward you at all for CC'ing them or avoiding killing them, and your best chance of survival is if no threats are alive to begin with. So it is OBJECTIVELY the best way to play." Your best chance of survival is to make enemies unable to attack you. This is accomplished through remaining undetected, hard cc, or if you're incapable of doing either, just nuking so you don't have to actually be good to play. So approaching every situation with the intent to mindlessly nuke is objectively just the sloppiest way to play, not the best. Again, you're just defending playing like a cracked-out baboon, which I already mentioned is fundamentally problematic. And in many mission types the game attempts to punish playing that way, but people disregard that because they can just easily mod beyond any deterrents to brainless play styles,which again doesn't make it better "Okay, but that still only catches what you already had in the dash is the problem. So in order to effectively use that for grouping you'd have to dash, puddle, unpuddle, dash, puddle, unpuddle, and essentially just burn a ton of energy on something that's only delaying your progress in most content and is also really inefficient for grouping to begin with." No, I'm not saying 2+3, 2+3, 2+3... I'm saying 2+3, 4. Or if you missed some enemies, 2+3, melee melee melee, 4, since targeted melee from puddle pulled enemies into the radius, but overall 2+3, 4 was preferable. You're saying that can now be done w just 2+4, and I conceded that I'm going to need to check that out bc I didn't realize that, but it's still problematic in that 4 is now a troll ability that negates powers like bladestorm which is significantly more powerful than anything in hydroids kit, so using 4 as hydroid slows down the mission by using a weaker ability to prevent stronger abilities, in the case of combat scenarios. "Okay, but you can now just melee them outright." Unless using a glaive, meleeing enemies suspended by swarm ISNT anywhere close to as convenient as 'slash the tentacle to transfer damage like zephyrs 4 "The damage still isn't comparable to what a lot of frames can get with less restrictive options" The reason ash is so good in lvlcap is because the damage he can deal from finishers IS superior to what a lot of frames can get with alternatives

Sorry for cherry picking here,but Whenever ANY frame is brought up in region, it's degrading. If you're looking for wholesome posts in region you may be missing the reason region got changed to be turned off by default for new players

I'd like to say something unrelated to the original post here, if I may.. OP, whether you meant to be condescending to mykk or not, that's how mykk took it, and doubling down on that certainly is condescending. At this point you're both just bowing up at each other and I don't think that's good for the points either of you are making. It's a bad look both ways imo

But just killing everything faster ISNT always the best way to play, and stealth and control and tactful play DO have a place in the game. Just because sloppy gameplay has become the norm doesn't negate that reality, it just marginalizes it because the expectation from sloppy players is that you must also play sloppy to compensate. In (sorry to use the same example again but) interception specifically where killing enemies causes more enemies to spawn, Its always going to be faster to pin down enemies and keep enemy density low than it is to flood the map, especially when nuking one part of the map just causes the adds to spawn where you aren't. So while you're nuking everything at a, you're making enemies spawn at b c and d in greater quantities, at best causing the mission to take longer because you now have more enemies to deal with and they're capturing towers that the player nuking had no reason to put them at, whereas holding the small number of starting enemies creates no adds, doesn't push enemies to where you aren't, and doesn't cause you to lose towers, thereby dragging out completion time. The matter of whether you can delete lvl500 enemies is irrelevant when the issue is that you're making a greater number of enemies than you need to be dealing with and putting them in places where they'll impede mission progress instead of holding them in a harmless location. Saying "The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all." Isn't very constructive here as it's both false and a defense of sloppy playing which is irrelevant to what I was saying. The problem with hydroid2 already was that too many people play like cracked-out baboons, and that interferes with a frame that performed exceptionally in situations where thats especially bad. And I wasn't talking about wavedashing out of puddle, I was talking about wavedashing into puddle. 2+3, not 3+2. Also, while suspending enemies like khoras 4 is preferred by many, I dislike it as I much preferred being able to damage the held enemies by using melee on the tentacles. The matter of the tentacles theashing enemies about was moot when targeting them was as simple as attacking the base of the tentacle. And locking you inplace for a slow animation int what makes a finisher a finisher, it's just your chief complaint about finishers. The fact that you can mod those weaknesses out of the attack or initiate finishers from a slide to make them faster only attests to that. What makes a finisher a finisher is that it gets a damage multiplier as well as bypassing defenses like armor and damage resistances, allowing it to deal massive amounts of true damage. Covert lethality also mostly got nerfed because people were just slapping it on a ceramic dagger with a bunch of attack speed mods and calling that good enough because any finisher attack would then kill any enemy, you just had to be able to reliably perform finishers fast enough to be worth using.now, for covert lethality to be effective out have to actually mod well.. and considering that finishers can deal several million damage per swipe, and with slash procs that can mean a massive amount of damage per tick, the dps from finishers is worth it imo, though again for ash, not inaros. I pointed out already that inaros is imo the worst as far as finisher abilities.. And no, I don't know how to do that.. sorry, I'm not very good at posting from my phone. I don't mean to make your page an illegible mess..

Just because the most popular way to play is "just killing enemies as fast as possible" doesn't make it the best way. A number of missions offer drawbacks to playing that way, people just mod hard enough to make them unnoticeable, which is a problem with development, not a pro lem with hydroid. And whether hydroid3s new 4 negating targeting abilities is intended or not, it does occur consistently, making his 4 now a troll ability, rather than a control ability. And again, hysroid2 wavedashing to puddle didn't throw enemies away,it locked them into the puddle. If you can now combo 2 and 4 to achieve the same effect then I'll have to play around w it and see if it's as effective as you say, but it's still held back by the problems that his 4 now poses for co-op play. In either case, saying that just killing everything is a fine solution notably disregards interception where the more enemies you kill, the more enemies spawn. And since interception does scale up enemy level, in SP getting a saryn or mesa in sqd in interception means you're gonna have a bad time. Past lvl300, if I have an option between dealing with 15 enemies for 1 minute or dealing with 500 for 5-10 minutes, I'm going to go play solo where my squad aren't the greatest threat to mission success. At best you're spending 5-10minutes on a round that should have taken 1-2 minutes, and while khora and vauban are still capable of achieving that in solo play where you don't have to worry about idiots interfering, as far as I've seen, hydroid no longer has the capacity to outperform either of them, where previously ye was my frame of choice in those inatances. I personally feel that in terms of hard cc, he's gone from s tier to c, or f tier due if nothing else to his ult now impeding other players abilities. Even if tempest and tidal are comparable or better than before, and even if combo 2+4 achieves the same effect as casting from puddle used to, that one point makes his 4 bad across the board And yes, covert lethality works with ash, although it's been nerfed to provide bonus finisher damage and not instakill, and finishers are faster based on attack speed and momentum at time of attack,meaning that a finisher performed under the effects of the speed boost from sliding is significantly faster. There also are methods to bring finisher damage high enough that even at lvlcap, finisher attacks are viable with ash. Less because of the finisher itself killing enemies, and more from the forced slash procs benefitting from the high base dmg provided by the finisher, as well as ash's passive causing slash prices to deal more damage and last longer. In this regard ash, excal, baruuk, and to an extent even banshee now benefit more from finishers than inaros, and a good dagger can quickly create openings for strong finishers without needing to cast at all

Absolutely correct. The main options we were given were toggle as a way to sidestep the extra work, or wait longer to have it fixed. Since the community picked quick easy fix,they're not still going to invest the time and effort into making it work how it was originally intended now

Well, that's more a problem with how many people used hydroid though rather than hydroids ability to control. Tempest barrage did knockdown, but wasn't generally necessary so it was my subsume slot. Tidal, when used from undertow, didn't throw anything around, it gathered any enemies you wavedash through directly into the puddle, where you could cast swarm from to lock all enemies in one place. With good duration, this made hydroid2 significantly better than khora or vauban for control based missions like interception, as you could reliably keep all enemies in the mission pinned to exactly where you wanted them while you captured and held the entire map, at any level. The only problem with that is that even in noncombat missions you have other players deciding to nuke your held enemies causing more and more and more to spawn until they flooded the map, and then complained how bad the gamemode is when the problem is really just bad players doing bad things. Hydroid3, however, simply can't do that. Yes tempest is better now, but tidal isn't particularly, undertow is gone and with it all of the fine tuned control that it enabled the swarm, and the swarm for that matter now suspends enemies wherever throughout it's range, not specifically where our want them. The drastic reductions to his capacity for control combined with the new swarm suspending enemies and thereby negating targeting powers from squadmates, not only shoehorns him into a DPS role, but makes him a bad co-op frame unless you run into a hydroid that knows better than to use his ult. Previously you could select where enemies were locked down based on how you cast swarm,with a variety of options. Now it automatically casts at max charge, but without it's previous synergy, and with the added detriment of disabling other players abilities. I WILL concede that he needed the change from magnetic to corrosive,that was good. And his new passive is much better, but he also lost the ability to transfer melee damage to held enemies by attacking the tentacles(like zephyrs tornadoes) which was useful for combat purposes.. but overall where hydroid performed best was missions where direct combat is punished by game mechanics, which is often overlooked because players just mod to be strong enough to ignore any deterrents to direct combat, and bruteforce their way through the game until they reach levels where they'll get killed for doing it, and as most such missions are limited in scope and level scaling, most of the time you won't encounter a scenario where the game punishes effectively enough to deter combat heavy frames. That doesn't make hydroid2 bad, but it DID make him bad in multiplayer, because your squad usually would end up creating a situation where you would have been better off just playing solo And as for finishers, I gotta say as an ash main, for me at least finishers stay relevant well past lvl2000, and don't force me to be stuck in one place, as I can summon shadows to perform finishers while I do other things(yes, I know I don't get credit for any of the damage or kills my shadows get, but the benefit to the mission is the same regardless)

Ah. See, I thought that he said it would need to be nerfed to compensate for being more consistent, but people were telling me I was wrong about that.. that was why I thought this change was going to happen, since moving where the calculations for the buff takes place would be a faster and simpler way to rebalance it than modifying the values in the the calculation. And the reason toggle was suggested was because fixing how it behaves in lighting was going to be a longer and more complicated fix than anticipated.. either way, it looks like a couple threads got merged while I was at work? I already left this thread behind last night when I got told shut up and go away by a couple people.. one of them was convinced that a LR4 w the conclave community glyph is somehow less than 2 months old, even though I've been playig more than a year longer than that person, so it seemed to me that my feedback was quite unwelcome here.. All that said, I do have a mental disability and easily misunderstand some simple things at times, so when I got told I was wrong about what was said I just accepted it as my mistake and did t have time to look into it

Ah,sorry about that. I'm about to head I to work so I don't have time to go over the stream again,but I could've sworn Pablo mentioned in the first place that the buff would need to be altered since it was never intended for players to be running around w eclipse at full strength all the time.. that was, iirc, one of the problem points with how it currently behaves in profit taker/eidolon fights. If I'm mistaken, thats my bad but the proposed change is basically exactly what I expected to happen if it was made a toggle, which is one of the bigger reasons I was much more content to simply wait and let the power be fixed to work as it originally was intended (the other being that the environmental/situational aspect of the power is a lot of fun)

Very true, and another aspect of synergy is being able to play cooperatively as a team, and many Warframe players are bad enough at that their only recourse is to mod their frames to be God tier so that the rest of the sqd doesn't matter in their eyes. But building a full load out synergistically takes effort and working together isn't flashy or fancy. Both are very effective though

It's a popular mentality for people to trash the frames they don't play as.. since everyone likes to pretend pvp is toxic, they all just pvp with their words instead. Maybe you'll enjoy knowing that my first successful run against the hidden challenge boss, the only other player that joined was an inaros. We trounced the fragmented one, so it's hard to argue that inaros isn't usable in endgame, but it is true that he's less popular than most frames

The trouble with that is that mirage wasn't intended to have the full damage buff all the time. They said in the first place they'd have to change the buff to make it less effective if they made it a toggle... One of the other options was to not get the power nerfed, but have to wait longer for it to be fixed. I love the environmental aspect of this power and how it gives the potential for amazing burst dps. I'd have been happy to wait longer instead of having the power weakened to reflect a significant change in ease of use, but the majority of players voted to go this route, and de decided to let the community choose.. you're not the only person asking de to reconsider, and I can see why, but how can *de* reconsider the decision *we* made? This is why I was content to wait,and have the power fixed, because I don't want to see it become significantly weaker.. but the community as a whole spoke up and asked for this, even knowing the tradeoff was a weaker power. I suspect DE's response to this, if any, would be a long the lines of that they can't go back on it now, and just disregard that so many people voted for it to be handled this way