Anti-Incarnon

You’re kinda intentionally misrepresenting me. I didn’t say «we never die», I was saying we have a lot of ways to prevent death that requires more thought put into builds and gameplay than overguard does. We’ve farmed and grinded for those ways to be available to us. I happened to mention a deep arch run that required that we put those to use, but due to modifiers we also had to actually pay attention to teammates. I contrasted it with a long-ish SP run which due to Dante provided little incentive to actively play. To me, the other survivability tools are more meaningful than being given massive amounts of overguard that has immunities to boot. All I am asking, and which few have tried to answer, are questions such as: What did overguard add to the game?Did it solve a problem? In my opinion it did one thing: it made it possible to stay alive in high level missions with less button/key inputs, and I don’t think that’s a good thing. I prefer a game that incentivizes me actively doing stuff. You mention Qorvex with his high EHP, well, he can also get ridiculous amounts of overguard on top of that. Why? If overguard didn’t add anything meaningful or solve a problem, then what’s the point other than power creep itself and adding a new shiny toy that enables big numbers? I don’t like that power creep looks more and more like an intentional strategy and I do think there are other means of keeping the playerbase engaged with the game. Considering most of the responses in this thread maybe not, though.

Huh, did not realize. Maybe there were two Dantes, do they stack? Still, even half would be very strong. And here’s the thing: adaptation, shield gate, armor buffs and other means of increasing survivability are under my control. They’re meaningful because I collected the mods, I am doing the required inputs, I am paying attention to their triggers. That’s way different than simply being given a giant raincoat by a squad member.

Yeah, you’re not dismissive, the number is the issue I have with it. It’s in the title. I am wondering how DE considers 100k fine when they recently buffed archgun deployment with 2k overguard. Like, they must have thought that was a decent buff. Some point out that 100k overguard is like 1000 hp with 90% DR, but if you are in a squad with a Dante, Frost or Styanax it will be reapplied to you over and over. Now if these frames applied 5k overguard on cast I would not have a problem with it, and honestly, with how energy is no longer a scarce resource at all, even that would be a nice buff. 100k? My hours of SP in a squad with Dante without ever seeing it dip below 60? Too much.

No need to get defensive. I too can have an opinion on the state of the game. The majority is loud, but there might be others that agree with me and a healthy discussion requires different concerns to be raised and heard.

Considering how a lot of enemies don’t have overguard and can be crowd controlled even in long SP runs, I personally am in favor of this mechanic since otherwise you’d be able to control the whole map with a Vauban, Nova, any frame with gloom, etc. Unlike player overguard, it adds to the game by requiring you to engage certain enemies differently. I think this problem is massively exaggerated. And the solution isn’t removing it anyway, it could simply be toning down the number of overguard enemies. That being said, there are multiple ways to achieve similar results. I think the warden enemy type of the murmurs is a well designed one.

I don’t get your point. Of course I recognize this, I simply wanted to give voice to my camp, or at least to see if I even have one. I never claimed to expect support, in fact I expected the opposite. But I wanted to see if anyone had arguments in favor of overguard or if I could make someone think about what the introduction of massive overguard numbers mean for the game.

100k is an extremely big layer. That’s the issue. It’s weird how they added 2k overguard to archgun deployment with a five minute cooldown, which one would think could be indicative of how they view the power of overguard, but no, there are spammable ways of achieving 100 times that amount. It is an extremely big layer when I can play hours of SP without ever fearing being downed, with basically no controller inputs and no matter how reckless I play. None of the other layers come close to that.

I didn’t feel like stating the obvious. The issue I have is that the game is increasingly leaning towards pleasing the former group. The issue is that the introduction of overguard didn’t solve a problem or add anything to the game. We were already surviving just fine with the layers we had: dmg reduction, shield gate, operator mode, last gasp, etc. Power creep to a lot of developers is a tool to in order to keep players spending money: the need to buy new stuff to achieve max power and easily beat new stuff. I expected more from DE, but I really don’t see what else could have been their motivation. Again: Overguard doesn’t add anything apart from incentivizing laziness (why engage with the game and help my squad if I can minimize actions and instead watch netflix and still get my rewards?). It does however take away. It takes away the meaningfulness of all the other layers of survivability.

Yesterday I played a two hour conjunction survival omnia fissure. SP, of course. There was a Dante in the squad. I had 100k overguard throughout most of the match. Not once did I dip below 70k. To me, these are numbers that aren’t proportional to anything else in the game. It’s just ridiculous to the point that they might as well remove player death as a mechanic and it wouldn’t make much difference. We really didn’t need extra survivability. We had countless mods, skills with damage reduction, operator mode, shield gate mechanic, last gasp, revives. Worse: All of these things are now rendered meaningless. Yes,because of overguard the game is reduced in complexity and has less meaningful choices. I am officially only playing solo from here on, except for deep archimedia. To contrast, I had one of the most fun runs in Warframe in that game mode the other day. My squad had all picked every modifier and we had to look out for each other, focus fire on tough enemies and revive left and right. We talked about it in the chat, how great it was to feel like a team again. It isn’t fun to die, but the fact that it can happen makes teamplay, builds and countless mechanics meaningful. Overguard is the stupidest thing I’ve seen added to the game. The fact that two or three button presses can make an entire squad practically immortal, how are you all fine with that? Don’t bring up 5 hour SP endurance runs, few are doing them regularly and they’re not something to base balance decisions on. At the 1 hour mark I could facetank an acolyte by myself while being afk to make coffee.

Of course he is. Along with the truly great work the devs are doing in terms of QoL updates and gorgeous designs, they’re also making it easier and less team oriented with every patch. Warframe was never a hard game, but it did at certain points in its history feel more meaningful to be a part of a squad. Look at the state of Oberon and Trinity, to understand how little team-wide healing or revives mean in today’s meta. Look at overguard. Look at Kullervo and how early he can be unlocked and how little he needs to solo SP endurance runs. Look at MR14s with Torid incarnon, who will probably never pick up a weapon they really need to build properly and properly around, to make it work in the endgame. I’ve personally become a solo player and I refrain from using the strong incarnons and a handful of frames. I like aiming, I like having to make use of operator mode to survive and I prefer crowd control to actually be useful. Thankfully, that option is there for those of us who don’t enjoy the state of affairs!

1. Richer gameplay. By limiting my weapon power, I actually have to engage with my warframe and operator abilities in order to kill and survive. I can't nuke entire rooms with a few trigger presses, I need to press more buttons in order to keep myself alive. To me, this is more engaging, and it allows me to appreciate the qualities of individual warframes and focus schools. 2. Inventory becomes more meaningful. The obvious reason being that I can pick pretty much any weapon I want to use. Another one is that I sometimes need to bring, say, an arcane I otherwise wouldn't use, in order to make a specific weapon work. 3. Build variety. I can't necessarily rely on standard weapon builds, and I may need to choose weapons that compliment each other, with builds that work against different enemy types, in order to kill fast enough. I may need to put some thought into the IPS weighting and do loadout tests in the simulacrum. 4. I'm not chasing an illusory next high. I really can't imagine finding the Torid, Dual Toxocyst and/or the Dual Ichor and making these your main weapons at MR14, because what is there to chase after that, other than an increased mastery rank? I recently fell in love with the Perigale, and a few days ago I formaed my Aegrit multiple times. Unique weapons that have limitations you have to work around in order to be successful with them. But they are very much SP viable if you do. There are so many cool and unique-feeling weapons in this game. Some will say that using whatever are the most powerful weapons and builds is the only real measure of "skill" in this game, since the gameplay itself isn't challenging. This is, besides really being an indication of the power creep and its consequences having been ingrained into the minds of the players, to some extent true. Mechanically it isn't a very complex game, but using non-meta weapons does make it more complex. I'm pretty sure few would appreciate the game if it had a completely minimalistic approach. I.e. if you could press a button to nuke the entire map (well, there are those who "enjoy" thermal sunder spam..). I think that for most players, gameplay matters. I created this post because I'd like to see more variety in the game and to challenge the addictiveness of following the meta. The fact is that most of the weapons in the game can be brought to hour long SP runs, and if you do take on 5+ hour long runs, then wouldn't the incarnons be a more meaningful part of your arsenal if you equipped them specifically for those?

Almost everything. I own and have fully modded most weapons in the game, with rivens for those that need it to be SP viable. My goal has been exactly that, to make everything SP viable. With melee that’s easy nowadays. As for the rest I’ve struggled the most with Alternox, lol. Currently enjoying Tysis, Zhuge Prime among others. But I bring something to level in almost every mission, so I mix things up a lot. It boggles the mind why so many use the same 4-5 weapons, when most things can be modded to deal with at least one hour SP runs. Few play longer runs, and why not save the incarnons for those, I wonder. I just love having a lot to choose from.

This. I exclusively use non-meta guns and enjoy variety above all, so this game mode looks like it’s made for me, and if everything else is made for the Torid+Ocucor nuker, then why shouldn’t it be. I highly doubt that they make it impossible to play and reap the rewards from this mission unless you’re like me though, so I wouldn’t worry.

I’m personally in favor of reworking frames on the account on them being functionally weird rather than because they’re weak. For example, I really enjoy playing Nyx. She offers a controller/pet style of gameplay and in my opinion has her place in the game despite arguably not being super strong. Inaros getting a rework makes a lot more sense and next in line for me would be Chroma. I’m on the fence about Limbo, since I imagine there are players who love the uniqueness he brings. Not every frame has to be an overpowered killing machine. If they offer something unique then they are an equally viable addition to the roster. Let us who enjoy roleplaying and using off-meta frames have our fun. So for me, Chroma, and perhaps Loki. I haven’t used him much, but I don’t see him bringing a «fantasy» to the game that wouldn’t have players rather gravitate towards Ash or Ivara.

I actually prefer his OG (not prime) skin with the tentacle helmet.