HeavyFarms

Chroma doesn't even need it. He can just buff himself with melee and ranged kills now.

Yes. Acceltra Prime already does what the Bramma does, exist fully automatic with a faster fire rate. No reason for the Bramma to be unusable when its already been power crept

I agree. Personally I'd love for Well of life & Energy Vamp to be merged or combined and a new ability added to Trinity's kit. (Who uses Well of Life when you have blessing?) Nyx and Trinity are my top picks for reworks.

Against level 200 enemies, exothermic doesn't cut it for me. She really needs that high damage reduction otherwise she gets shredded. I could build her a pure tank, and toss adaptation on her, but then no real point using any of her abilities as they take too long to kill anything. I really like gloom on both Nidus and Garuda. Garuda is one of my favorites now with how well it works with her.

If you had a brain, you could figure it out. Augments exist to make an ability better. If something is worthless, or useless, it shouldn't exist. Eclipse should be in a state where its actually useful to consider "Hey should I extend these buffs to my team?" If total eclipse is something you would consider on normal mirage, its something you should be able to consider when you use it on helminth. Uh no. Eclipse got nerfed into the ground because its was the more popular ability. Again, read patch notes. Keep up. No. People aren't going to run eclipse for a 15% increase to lose 30% to ability damage. Because functionally killing an ability, effects how other people play. You just aren't smart enough to take the hint. No matter how many people you argue with. (Take a hint.) When I have to comb through every large paragraph you post, I tend to skim through things. Here's the logical fallacy for you. I don't want to give either ability an advantage. People used Eclipse more often, and that's why it first got nerfed to 150% in helminth. Even with giving Eclipse 90% weapon damage, its still being nerfed harder than Rhino Roar. Roar has the advantage in the argument because it does more than just weapon damage. Its dishonest to go "Weapon damage is the only thing that matters" when there's more to consider. I don't just look at one aspect of an ability. I want both abilities to be good. I'm not going to just focus on Roar's weapon damage and be like "Yeah. that's the only factor to consider". Because you don't. I have to repeat and rephrase the same thing to get the point across. For example: Mod slots are so important, there are 3 whole items in the game dedicated to getting the most out of them. Forma/Umbra Forma, Reactor for more capacity as well as an exilus adapter. There's a reason why people want augments in exilus slots, cause it would literally let them have more build power and freedom with their builds. (Especially with frames that are just better with their augments.) Unfortunately, this isn't true. Otherwise, you'd try to make total eclipse usable as an augment choice for team play. It exists. Its possible. Just not if you have any say about it. Not a strawman. Its your lack of comprehension. Jack of all trades buff vs singular focused ability. I can't explain it any simpler than I've already attempted. Let's see if you had any luck understanding an example I gave to you so you have any clue what I'm talking about. I'm not a surgeon could salvage your missing brain cells. The General Practioner is rhino roar. He helps with anything. He's got a wide and broad scopre that he can treat for you. A surgeon is Eclipse. Its a singular focused pursuit that is more practiced, more specialized and hence massively more helpful in that one singular category. This is jack of all trades vs specialized. The incentive is so both abilities have an appeal so you'll regularly find teams with both. (Cause I'd really enjoy having both buffs at the same time for the whole team, and not have one too nerfed to ever be seen again.) Hospitals have both doctors. Eclipse was the more popular option, till DE swung for its kneecaps at its regularly scheduled popularity nerf. The word you are looking for is unequal. And the abilities don't need to be equal for both to be good. They are tools for different jobs. That's why I propose making Eclipse stronger than you'd like. Cause regardless if Eclipse is 200% weapon damage, 150% weapon damage, 120% weapon damage or 90% weapon damage, I'm going to use roar when I want increased ability damage. (Not many other abilities buff ability damage. Likewise, Eclipse is one of the only pure weapon damage buffs in the game. And I don't like nerfing things because its popular. If weapons were people, DE would unalive a man if it got too popular. Nope. De was trying to specifically make helminth eclipse weaker. Normal eclipse hasn't been touched. This isn't an issue of eclipse being too strong. Its an issue of it being too popular. That's why they nerfed it with the new lightning system. I am fine with some nerfs. I am not fine nerfing it into 1/3rd of what it used to be. Eclipse has some use now because of its 75% damage reduction and for that alone I've considered putting it on frames like ember. (I really, really, really hate how her fire armor works. Seriously, I would literally put defense eclipse over immolation so I'm not juggling a heat gauge.) And losing value isn't a winning strategy. You don't spend 30$ just to gain 15$ elsewhere. Some warframes don't mind losing ability damage. That's Eclipse's time to shine. That's where you should want it. Like a Banshee with Sonar and Eclipse. Not sure you know anything about Lavos. He's getting a new augment that gives weapons 200% elemental damage. I would love to see how incredible that would be with eclipse. (An Idea I'll try later whenever they buff eclipse.) In my original post, I said something like "Miasma can do however so and so damage" Meaning I was using its full damage potential at base 100% power strength. Because you aren't considering how others want to play. Only how you want to play. If you let others play how they want to play, any of the few dozen people that have disagreed with you might have actually convinced you to have fun. An ability being too strong can still be fun in a PvE game. We are still fighting enemies with millions of health. An ability being too weak, is actively detrimental to people who want to use that ability. I've already compromised on nerfing Eclipse 3x from what it is normally on Mirage. Not 200%, nor 150% but something resembling usable below that. I don't have ego. My own desire is to have an ability strong enough that the majority of the playerbase still want to use it. I've given you math on numbers that shows Eclipse can have damage multipliers higher than what you'd first want. And yet, I'm not arguing for eclipse to 4x roar like it normally is. Like I said. Pretend we agree 80% is close enough. That means roar got nerfed to 3/5ths of its original ability. 80% would be 1/4th of eclipse normally. I mean, you only ever looked at Eclipse and Roar when it comes to weapon balance. I argued validity by showing you "Hey, Roar adds 1k damage on abilities alone." The reason you moved on past 45% is because I made valid arguments on one ability adding damage that you never considered. This is because I want both options to appeal to people. If people want a mix of weapons and abilities, a roar can give a serious damage boost to stuff like spores, miasma, maybe even octavia's mallet. But on frames like Nova to have player choice/preferrence be an actual choice. Do you go eclipse for the combo with molecular prime and have damage reduction? Or do you go for roar to boost everyone's weapon damage, and increase damage of enemies exploding? Im 80% certain frames like Mesa, Excal, Titania would prefer Eclipse over roar just from their exalted weapons. I honestly don't expect things to get buffed. DE rarely finds that sweet spot of "Just right" when it comes to balancing things. I'm hoping for anything 60% or higher. Use your brain and consider all the comparisons on an ability. Solo ability vs team buff ability. Other aspects of an ability make trade offs. If you have two similar buffs, but one is better in 90% of cases, people are just going to use the general option. If I had plat for every time you brought up quadratic scaling, I could buy Dante. If I had plat for every time I had to repeat myself for you to get the concept of different tools for different purposes, I could buy the Dante collection. And I don't have to accept anything. If Eclipse is unusable in helminth, I'll just play normal 200% eclipse on mirage. Give something else for DE to nerf from popularity.

What you believe or think is irrelevant. You don't have reasoning behind your thoughts, only they substanceless thoughts alone. Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. But you can't admit you are wrong. Eclipse could be buffed to 45%, its usage could be basically 0 and with nobody using it, would you have the honesty to admit you are wrong? We both know the answer is no. I call a spade a spade. Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly. That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math. Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power. Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point. Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off. Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense. If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right." But you can't suprass your own ego. Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. Strange how that works. Its really simple. Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. Which is why you don't belong here. Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert. Because you haven't made a good argument yet. Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage. Let alone companion or team damage. +30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. +60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth.

Then buff or provide alternate options. Gyre had an energy replenshing ability. There was one tool for the job, and they nerfed the one tool instead of providing any other options. Honestly, Zenurik's old passive of becoming a permanent energy gain should make a reappearance. Just to have more build diversity if they dont add any other options.

You'd just use roar anyway. Why not boost your warframe abilities too while you are at it. My friend runs Nova and Roar. Guess no reason not to at this point.

You said you wanted a battle of wit. You already lost. Brevity is the soul of wit. are entirely opinionated and incapable of listening to others. In fact, self awareness would be incredibly helpful to yourself. Please look into it. Nope. The way you talked down to others is pretentious. After seeing how interact with others, is how I formed my currently very low opinion of you. Considering one mod slot can give you 99% power strength, and that can give large amounts of power? Until you put augment slots in as exilus mods, it is a significant trade off. However, if augments could be put in exilus most people would only lose say power drift or another far lesser trade off. Seeing as Total Eclipse is 15 meters compared to Roar's 25, and only lasts as long as you are inside it. You have 3 downsides over roar. #1 30 meter vs 50. #2 Have to stay within range for total eclipse #3 takes up a mod slot. Increasing the duration of eclipse like with narrow minded. is going to have a more negative impact then it would on roar. You aren't aware of anything. If this was something you had any grasp of. You'd realize that a buff extending to 3 other teammates is stronger then a 15% increase to your own weapon damage. I know you are completely unaware because while Eclipse and Roar are the same tool for different jobs. Roar was always designed to be one size fits all buff. Its job is to boost frames focused on both abilities and weapon damage. Eclipse is specialized. Its the Master of One opposed to the Jack of all trades nature of Roar. Nope! Mirage isn't a support frame. She's a frame that specializes in crowd control or damage. Her augment should stay an augment. I'd prefer if Total Eclipse was changed to give allies the full duration of the buff when they are in range. And you finally figured out what frames want roar. I quite enjoyed doing the math on Miasma and found out that it fit perfectly to my suggestion of 90% damage on eclipse. But Roar just helps Saryn out from spores, to Miasma. Except I didn't. I'm well aware that normal Eclipse is 200%. 60% of normal eclipse would 120%. However, I used 60% of the helminth eclipse we got to put it at 90%. That's still 3x the 30% we get from roar, and that would be the lowest Eclipse could go for me in order for me to consider it. Right now Eclipse only exists as a defense buff until it is buffed back up to being some kind of usable. Sorry but you focus on one thing at a time. I don't. Jack of all trades is Roar's strength. DoT being buffed more is nice, and is one of the reasons why Eclipse needs a stronger buff. But Roar is the omni buff. I won't get into how roar would quickly surpass eclipse in terms of a full squad based around status effects. You should be telling yourself this not me. Cause Eclipse isn't even winning at the individual level. Most Warframes have an equivlent of their own Miasma that makes Roar the better choice. If you are trying to convince me that 90% Eclipse isn't the way to go, this isn't how you do it. Considering This isn't factoring what Roar would do to warframe abilities, This is what I'd expect the buff from a single ability to do well, instead of a jack of all trades ability. You counter your own argument far better then you could ever argue. Unfortunately for you, I understand your point. That's the problem. That's why you are getting called out. Cause you don't actually think past surface level. You solely look at weapon damage and go "Eclipse should be 50% (15%) stronger than roar. "45% is fine" Except Mirage is 200% compared to Rhino's 50%. Your logic doesn't make sense compared to the source frames, If Eclipse was say... 75% Multiplicative Bonus then your logic would have at least some kind of precedent? Cause right now 45% is just a number you pulled out of your opinion, that you like the math of. There's no actual logic behind your choice of that number. Since you struggle with any concept of logic, I'll give you an example. Its called "Standard." De used Roar's 30% and used it as the standard to adjust eclipse. There's at least some logic there, even if doesn't make any sense nerfing a specific single person buff to 15% of its original value compared to a team wide omni buff. Normal Eclipse and Normal Roar are fine. They are the stanadard. Roar in helminth is weakened by 60%. Logically, nerfing any similar ability past that 60% is going to negatively break that standard. I applied the standard to Eclipse at 150% and got the result of 90%. (If you want to make the argument for 120% instead, be my guest.) My 90% was a compromise between what it was, (150%) and the utterly useless 30% that it is now. 90% is also the median between 30% and 150%. Exactly in between the two. It doesn't lose 77% to 66% of its power compared to how roar loses 40%. Like if any semblence of logic actually fit in your brain you'd go. "Hmm. Maybe Eclipse being 22% of its original power is too low.

Its not a fight. That would imply you are competition. You can't compete. Outside of the correct application of math, I haven't seen you do anything correct. Your logic and reasoning have no standards other than what you "feel" is fair. You suffer from being pretentious. That's the difference between us. Ecliipse should be stronger. Because Eclipse doesn't apply to 3 other teammates without a significant trade off. You and I can compare Roar and Eclipse all day. However you don't care or consider how much more damage Roar provides simply buffing an entire squad. Roar just scales an entire team's damage. Weapons, abilities, companions. It does it all. Saryn isn't going to benefit from Eclipse like it would from Roar. So I've been proposing to keep the helminth versions of both abilities in line with their full power counterparts. Something you can't fathom because you have no concept of how to balance single person buffs, vs group buffs. Let's go back to one of our examples. Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.3 = 2015 Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 Now, instead of limiting ourselves to solo player perspective, we are going to include teammates. Roar: 4 * 1000 * 1.85 = 7400 Roar is almost 50% stronger from teammates alone. Not including Companions, Abilities, or anything else. A base Saryn Miasma can do 3600 damage. Roar would buff that to 4680 per enemy hit. So Eclipse adds 465 damage. Roar adds 300 PER PERSON, and 1080 damage per Miasma. So to a knucklehead like yourself, what would it take to make Eclipse competitive in such a scenario? Are you going to bring Roar that ends up adding 2280 damage? Or are you going to use Eclipse for 465? Now. We are going to use what Eclipse SHOULD be. Not what you feel. 90% Weapon damage. Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.9 = 2945. That's 1395 damage difference. Rhino roar (Which should be the weaker weapon damage buff) adds 1200 weapon damage across an entire team. That's 195 difference between the two abilities. All it would take for Roar to catch up to that difference is If the team has companions that can deal 37.5 (or 3% of their player's damage) So let's give you a summary using these numbers as an example. Damage Increase per One Person: 30% Roar with One Miasma = 1380 damage. (300 + 1080) 90% Ecplise = 1395 damage. Eclipse needs to be 90% for this ^ exact reason. Its only a weapon damage increase. Any less that 90% and it can't compete with Roar. Full Squad Increase 30% Roar = 1200 damage. 90% Ecplise = 1395 damage. 1 Miasma per player = 4320 damage. (This is all the damage Roar/Eclipse adds, not the total damage.) Remember when I said Eclipse had to be around this amount to be worth it? Maybe you should try listening to somebody who actually has a clue. Your proposed Eclipse? Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.45 = 2247.5 Aka 697.5 damage increase. Not even close to Roar + Miasma's 1380. Perhaps if you try... doubling the amount you listed, you'd get something close. Roar applies to allies. Try to get your abilities correct. Wonderful. Adding another way Eclipse can be functionally worse than Rhino Roar. You are in fact not. You suffer from shortsightedness from focusing on a single aspect, instead of the full picture. Its why you can't make a convincing argument. Try having mental capacity first. If you had any awareness outside yourself, (You should work on that btw.) you would have figured out the issue everyone else realized hours ago.

Bro. Stop embarrasing yourself. Have some self respect. Eclipse being nerfed to 30% isn't worth wasting a mod slot, so you can give teammates 30% weapon damage. Its not worth it. Everlasting ward on the other hand, can be worth it. Nope. It is functionally the same as roar. You press roar, your teammates get 30% faction damage. You press total eclipse you get 30% weapon damage. But go on. Please tell me how two buffs with identical percentages, are too different to be compared. Not using your brain either honestly. See people are complaining about patch notes they disagree with. People don't mind how roar or eclipse are normally. Ecplise is fine, even being worth total eclipse cause when its not nerfed to the ground, its a pretty decent buff. Not at 30%. Your math was corrected. Its because your math was wrong. No matter how you try to spin your nonsense, eclipse was significantly nerfed in helminth more than rhino roar was. That's why people are complaining that 30% eclipse isn't worth running. Because at 30% you are better off using rhino roar, for buffing your weapons, companions, and warframe abilities, instead of limiting yourself to weapons. I told you that it would have to be around 100% to actually be worth it. That is still true. You can pretend otherwise. Logic isn't your strong suit so I'll help you out. You can grab a team buff, that buffs a maximum of 4 players by 30% at base. Or you can buff only your own weapon by 3x that amount. This is called trade off. You can buff 3 other players, but you get 1/3rd of the buff. Like I told you in my response, eclipse would need to be 90% for it to be at 60% strength, same percentage as roar. Logically, weakening one ability by 80% to the point IT HAS NO POSITIVE USES THAT WAY makes the ability functionally pointless. Pro tip, learn to accept you're wrong. None of your logic makes any credible sense, you aren't going to convinve anyone and your argument doesn't have substance. If Eclipse was too powerful for you, you would want the normal version nerfed. However, the normal version is fine. Same with Rhino's normal roar. Oddly, Rhino's normal roar is exactly 1/3rd the power of normal eclipse. 50 vs 150. so 30 vs 90 makes perfect sense. But again, then you'd have to admit you're wrong. You completely removed eclipse as a viable buff. See, the entire reason normal eclipse is viable is because its 3x the strength of rhino roar at base. But it doesn't buff allies unless you sacrifice for it. So. Our little argument is over. There is no argument you can make for eclipse that makes sense that doesn't keep it at the same relative strength roar is when you helminth it.

The "Obvious solution" is for you to read the patch notes. Both abilities are 30%. The "Obvious solution" if you ask me is to reduce Eclipse by 40% the same way Rhino Roar was reduced by 40%. Eclipse would be a 90% increase weapon damage increase, 3x the amount its being nerfed to.

Then why is there an augment mod, that takes up an entire modslot to turn eclipse into roar. (10m less range.) First, let's correct your math. Cause you aren't using the patch notes. Helminth Diminished Effectiveness Change: Eclipse has been one of the most popular Helminth abilities, so by fixing its unreliability related to light sources and making its buffs guaranteed, a rebalance was in order to compensate. This change does not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from Helminth. Solar Eclipse has a base 30% increased Weapon Damage. This was previously 150%, it was reduced to match the Diminished Effectiveness of Rhino’s Roar. To fix this for you. Base Abilities at 100% Power Strength: 30% Eclipse / 30% Roar (This is what they are in Helminth. The one people are complaining about) Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.3 = 2015 DoT : 2015 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1093.75 Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 DoT : 1850* 1.85* 0.35 == 1197.875 Eclipse is about a 9% increase over Roar's initial damage. Too bad Roar has a 9.5% lead on DoT. At 200% power strength, Eclipse does about 15% more damage on hit, While Roar does about 20% more DoT damage. (Faction) No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.3 = 1300 DoT : 1300 * 0.35 == 455 Roar : 1000 * 1.3 = 1300 DoT : 1300 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 591.5 Now. If it wasn't clear to you before. Eclipse is losing 80% of its power. It now has the same 30% value that Roar has. The difference? Roar went from 50% to 30%. Eclipse went from 150% to 30%. Oh, but Roar has the added benefit of effecting teammates, companions, warframe abilities etc, making roar contribute upto 4x more damage than eclipse. Eclipse is being nerfed to 30% weapon damage increase. Rhino Roar is 30% factional damage increase. 30% is inherently 30%. Even if the math is applied differently. If you actually read the patch notes, you might understand why nerfing Eclipse by 80% isn't fair when Roar only was nerfed by 40%. Pro Tip. Read the patch notes.

I think your logic is so amazingly flawed. #1 Rhino Roar effects abilites and weapon damage. (This is already reason enough to run roar over eclipse on certain frames. #2 Eclipse only buffs the caster, not the party. Roar buffs the entire team, including companions. #3 Roar lasts longer, scales better, and gets further increased on certain interactions. (Roar + Faction Mods + Molecular Prime for example) So, explain to me why anyone would use eclipse over roar. Weaker, doesn't apply to teammates, shorter, doesn't effect ability damage. Giving it 100% multiplier at base so your weapon damage is comparable to the damage boost of both weapon and abilities combined is about the only real way eclipse would be considered. Its a solo only buff, it should giver stronger innate bonuses than a 25m range team wide buff. Might as well make Eclipse defensive only. Its damage reduction is the only thing going for it, when it is... eclipsed by roar in every regard.

Ember asks "What alternatives?" (I've tried running Ember without it, and her kit is too flawed to work without the energy boost.) Seriously. At this point I would KILL for a "Helminth Disposition" system where less popular frames don't get the nerfed Helminth abilities.