[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

7 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

if warframe is Diablo then they should not have design any warframe that cant nuke. problem is simple. because nuker make all other dps warframe Inefficient and pointless. the solution will be 1.nerf all nuker to the level other dps 2.remake every dps frame into nuker 3.dev a game mode that nuker cant do only other dps frame can do.  

warframe isn't diablo though, it's still i guess meant to be a co-op shooter, which is why nukes stand out so much since they are inherently against co-op. yeah they could go the diablo route and stop caring about co-op, but they could also keep to the co-op aspects and just balance the nukes. they aren't even all that efficient they're just a lot of overkill, with the exception of solo eso and defense potentially, outside that i've yet to hear how frames like saryn bring efficiency to most other content, just excess death that shunts other people out of play. 

[Please DONT change the grendel missions]

8 hours ago, --Nob0dy-- said:

 

You don't need to look any further than the Lich system. What the devs originally envisioned as a long-term challenging engagement with a personalized nemesis is just a few layers of RNG and a more or less normal boss with slightly different stats and abilities. They released a poorly designed system and the community had no part in it other than the criticism it's currently getting. In terms of the Grendel missions, it's not any better because the devs weren't able to make something challenging without cutting players' power. 

I think I need more than just an extremely new still explicitly in development game mode as an example of most of this game just being inherently broken and incomplete. You also can't say the community had no part in its turn out when we don't know the full decision making process behind why it took the turns it did. You bring up the Grendel mission but that seems entirely like a community driven development, people want a challenge but no nerfs to their challenge invalidating kits, want an enemy that lives more than a second but also doesn't use cheap combat mechanics to get by, so they provided a challenge that didn't involve nerfs and didn't use nullification or iframes and all it cost was our mods, because y'know, impossible situations.  

8 hours ago, Awazx said:

Play the game and read the forum.

Informative. 

[Please DONT change the grendel missions]

21 hours ago, Awazx said:

No.

90% of all the content offered by the game is incomplete, unfinished or poorly balanced. Do not blame the community for something that is only the responsibility of its creator.

Explain. 

[Railjack should be delayed, and here is why...]

It should be delayed because my birthday is next month and I want it to seem like a personal gift to me. 

[Devstream :134 Overview]

1 hour ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

well if your refusing to read then it cant be helped 

again if you think any of that is wrong you can address it, i read what you said and it wasn't relevant to my points. have a fantastic day. 

[Please DONT change the grendel missions]

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

Perhaps because the community does not want "fun and challenging" content that forces it to stop using all the equipment they have gained for years.

DE logic:

1. Warframe is a grinding and rng game.
2. The player invests thousands of hours in grinding and rng to improve his equipment.
3. DE decides that "fun and challenging" is to take away from the player everything he has achieved.

It's so ridiculous it seems stupid.

We force DE into that position by refusing any attempt they make to actually balance the game, we can't both have completely broken tools and engaging difficult content, and since we won't take the broken tools being less broken the only other remaining option is just to remove them from play where difficulty is truly meant to apply. We see it in boss design, we see it in the way endgame oriented modes are designed, and now we see it with Grendels quest, it's their chosen route for generating difficulty in the face of tools that are just too overtuned to do the job by themselves and to which he community vehemently stands against seeing changed. 

 

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

19 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

   Going to give a bit of advice, it's kind of getting hard to tell what you're talking about via bullet points. It's shorter than our other format but you need to explain in that bullet point what were talking about. It helps for organizational purposes and makes it easier to understand.

1. yes it would and even if it did I don't feel like saying the same thing twice especially when it's not needed. I've given a broad example of ideas taken from my raids and concepts and put them here. Examples related to saryn specifically because this thread is on her. Posting the entire raid does nothing but make the obvious more obvious and would take ages to read fr no reason then to clarify for you specifically. If enough people say I haven't made the circumstances and situations clear enough i may reconsider but I feel I've done a good enough job at explaining.
2. It's not like they shouldn't go back to revisit missions already, people complain about enemy scaling and endless rewards all the time. Mission types are flawed and need to be looked at especially endless ones. Why not mix some additions in there that not only satisfy the community for difficulty but take warframes like saryn down a bit. This is a multipurpose fix that works with what the community wants in more ways than one. Fixing important missions, making saryn and her class less viable, and bringing back CC all in one, maybe more if DE gets more creative.
3. I have gone over that already! She's amazing at places featuring specific circumstances where she floruishes where she's meant to. Other warframes are comparable to her so why must she draw the short straw and be nerfed when others are "just as problematic" yet nobody throws a fit about them. Saryn has no reason to be nerfed because she isn't oppressive and doesn't devalue every other warframe. She's not good at boss fights, she isn't a loot farmer, and she certainly isn't a tank or support. Damage is her only redeeming quality and horde damage to be specific. She's good where she is and that's all there is to be said on the matter. if a warframe provides the situation.
4. How did I fail at showing that saryn needs an enemy? Literally that point can't be wrong because she's got no enemy at the moment. She's incapable of being hard countered by enemies yet all other warframes are. usually nullifiers are good enough but she doesn't feel the weight of nullifiers at all. I used cataclysm as an example becuase if players build max range cataclysm nullifiers are the bane of their existence. Have you ever felt that way when playing saryn? that something shuts you down completely? no. She needs something like that whether it comes in enemies or mission objectives, which have been proven to work btw. Saryns aren't ever seen in massive boss fights.
5. Ahhh ok wait I see it ok. My bad that was a typo on my part leading to a miscommunication for a few posts >.<. sorry. I messed up here "Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things." thanks. I meant to say indirect.
6. You're right interactions are part of it, but with this change there is still no direct changes to Saryn. People can play her exactly how they do now if desired even if it's slightly less effective and required more work from her team. This is why it's called indirect nerfs. You could say she gets weaker but it makes her more reliant on her team now doesn't it? If she can't deal with everything like you want to believe she can, then this change would satisfy all players who want her not to be touched, yet also satisfy those who want her to not "kill everything".
7. "I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option. " This quote here implies that I want other warframes to be as powerful as saryn. At least that's how I took it.
8. Sure she uses viral and corrosive but to this extent eximus and those are the examples because this is her thread. I gave an example of how to counter people with playstyles using corrosive and viral, hitting saryn in the process. This is a specific example and it can be replicated for other warframes and playstyles. It may hit her but it's not limited to her.
9. Solo play isn't important to consider outside of is it playable. I cannot be more blunt then that.
10. I didn't mention stuff to bring the changes with because were talking balance. Not reward. I also beleive DE can do just fine creating rewards and content given that it's their job to do so.
11. I've already explained why your explanation on DPS killing CC is flawed. I can admit it may be a small part of it but it's not necessary to correct. I explained that if DPS is removed people will just go to tanks because nothing calls for CC warframes. Even people who are respected for their knowledge of the game, trib and rahetalious said that CC isn't called for with mission objectives.
12. I didn't remove it from my post? I'm assuming you're talking about ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, and Excavation being good for saryn and good for rewards? sort of lost on this part.
13. Obviously domination doesn't equate to relevance. But she was forged for ESO and refined in it's systems. ESO launched update 22.18 of April 20th 2018 and shortly after update 22.20 of May 17th 2018 launched with S3.0 so it stands to reason she was custom crafted for ESO. Especially since this was the newest game mode and feedback of saryn and ESO mixed together so she was even refined for ESO. her post was even called "Beasts of Sanctuary Update 22.20 Saryn Revisited. If DE, and this is a big if, If DE did not make Saryn for ESO then they're incompetent and completely forgot how content plays into other content. If it also was an unintended fix why wait until now to fix it, or are they that lazy?
14. In lame mans terms yes it's half of it, but i've thrown more ideas out there. Reworked mission types and new mission types which don't feature Saryn favored content served to her on a silver platter.
15. So your idea is to bury saryn. then move to mirage, tear her apart like her previous incarnation, then kick volt's crotch? And once that's done and people start moving to tanks the cycle starts again. Then we eat inaros, nerf wukong again cause he really needs it, throw acid on rhino's iron skin, and etc etc. That many reworks sounds like it'll take years and not a year. Nerfing over and over will only push players from the game.

My points in order follow your points in order, it should be easy to keep track of. 

1. so you've said it, just not expressly here in response to this request, despite it supposedly being against the rules, and i'm going to assume won't restate it despite clearly nothing happening from it being said here, and this is just convoluted. i give, if you won't explain directly i'll just take it as false/wrong at this point, i'm not here for mental gymnastics. 
2. it's not, but they shouldn't be doing it on the premise of preserving a small number of imbalanced frames, otherwise they'll be going back soon enough again. 
3. so long as the power she exerts can cause a negative impact on design aspects of the game she will remain an issue no matter how many loops you try to hop through to distort that reality. again explain why its okay for her to invalidate engagement in co-op, or otherwise you have no point. 
4. You failed to show it as a particular enemy to even Limbo because you didn't present full circumstances, but that's still off topic and no need to carry further. On topic, she is countered to effectively the same level of effect as CC frames, as explained numerous times, what keeps her over the top like any other nuke is the damage numbers and range of said damage being so overwhelming alternative routes remain unnecessary/undesired. lowering nukes lowers that disparity. 
5. k
6. Direct or Indirect it's still power changes, I don't care for the semantics and in the long haul I don't think anyone does, what ends up there is what ends up there. And for Saryn, either way she is being made weaker, your method just seems so unnecessary clogged with bandaids to her issues that would only splinter out to affect other things, and why you think that ideal I still do not understand. 
7. It does not if you understand the context of the conversation, which I would hope you would since I assume you have been fully reading my responses before responding. otherwise, they're all recorded to revisit. 
8. Non-point since you already agreed it isn't feasible to do that practice on a frame by frame basis. 
9. So it doesn't factor in solo play then after all?
10. We're talking the entire structure to make whatever dream state you keep piping about.
11. And I explained how patently false that is as proven by the games own history, which is about as objective as one can get on game design impacts. 
12.  The duplicate responses, you removed them from the initial post after I pointed them out. 
13. She was not forged for ESO, in fact ESO didn't even exist when her rework was worked on, as stated by Pablo the creator of said rework. It also should be known because it prompted this entire topic, that Pablo doesn't approve of how she interacts with ESO even. No she was not remotely made with the intent for her level of dominance. She was also reworked like what, twice after her release almost immediately? It's very explicit her impact wasn't what they wanted it to be. In regards to why it takes so long for them to change her again? Only people internal to the company would know. It could be anything, from just hesitance to deal with how toxic some of the community gets over nerfs, to being occupied with other projects, to just not being sure what direction to go next with the frame if they change it. 
14. You haven't explained how they'd be reworked, or what designs for new missions. 
15. My idea is to rebalance Saryn to a more even playfield with most of the game, and repeat the cycle with the most notable overperformers until we have a more consistent state of balance for the game, which is what the game always should have done, and then from there life gets easier since DE only have to deal with more minute balancing changes. The biggest issue with DE's balance is that they let it slip so far without trying to keep things in line or even set a line, and that's what has lead to this whole mess of what is and isn't viable. Stabilizing things works, that's what made the melee rework go over so well, even if the highest performers had to get trimmed to make it work. Also seeing as we only have like 3 or 4 explicit over performers, and they only need tuning not full redesigns, no that would not take a long time to do. It certainly wouldn't even take a fraction as long as redesigning enemy encounters, creating new missions types, and rebalancing existing missions types, then dealing with all the weapon and frame rebalancing that would also be impacted by such large changes. 

[Founder Stuff (not toxic)]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

yeah no.

no need for them anyway IMO since Lato Vandal is beastly with a Riven and Prisma Skana is awesome since the melee rework. all you're missing really is the aesthetic.

aesthetic is 90% of what drives players, fashion frame is endgame for a reason

[Of Codpieces and Horns]

2 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

Listen. If Ember gets to be thicc, why not have Rhino be packing? Let's be fair to both sides here. Let them have their enormous packages. If the girls get thicc thighs and voluptuous posteriors, let the boys have the packages they deserve. 

i'd prefer both get  the booty, codpieces are hardly on the same tier 

[Devstream :134 Overview]

55 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

-snip-

that is way too much text for such a basic conversation but all i'm saying is there are no present plans for a second ember deluxe, and that de have not committed to giving every frame a proto skin, just the potential for a second deluxe per tennocon 2018, that is all. if you have something speaking to the contrary i'd be glad to hear, but otherwise yeah, that's it. 

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

1 hour ago, Violet_Xe said:

1. (Addressing point #1) No it would be off topic, I know it would because it would become about how my raid and ideas balance out saryn and all other frames. Not only would that be long enough take take up an entire page but it would shift the topic.
2. (Addressing point #2) One of their largest content drops ever is coming soon which frees up a lot of room and they don't have many other confirmed large plans aside from duviri. They can work on that and work on and off on this for over a year. This is nothing compared to how many things they've had working at once.
3. (Addressing point #3) How is it not relevant? You say she's overpowered and should be nerfed yet why should she when there are frames that are almost as good as she is who have more uses than her and nobody complains about them. They aren't problems either otherwise we would see people complaining how mirage and volt destroy ESO. They should have the same reputation or close to the same as saryn's yet they don't. They're DPS warframes and do their job just fine.
   1. I have explained why they shouldn't be nerfed. Because nobody is complaining about volt and mirage. Saryn in specific people want nerfed because she's the most popular and has the best reputation. Saryn has the illusion of being useful in all content when she isn't. It's because her specific purpose just so happens to fit with most of what makes up warframe and DE seemingly won't develop anything not focused around killing. She isn't the problem, she's a specific tool for a specific purpose which DE has overused.
4. (Addressing point #4)That wasn't the purpose of that point. I wanted to show limbo's enemy which is nullifiers. Saryn needs something like that. Whether or not cataclysm is defensive or not is irrelevant. When did CC come into this point? I said nothing on point 4 about CC this wasn't the topic of #4. This was purely about saryn needing an enemy like limbo and nullifiers.
5. (Addressing point #5) I'm going to assume that was a typo "anything but indirect" which yes it is indirect. My ideas are indirect nerfs to saryn, but they are direct effects to the game to do so. That was the point. Were talking about saryn right? These are indirect changes to her. No these wouldn't make her weaker. How would any of the changes I proposed make her weaker? She remains with the same stats and strengths. The thing is viability of certain playstyles would lower while other playstyles rise. You're wrong and being very skew about game design right now saying there's only 2 ways to change a warframe's viability.
   1. DE already showed you're wrong here. Fire itself was changed and ember got stronger. But it wasn't just ember it was the entirety of heat based playstyles. Ember, nezha, Ignis, and more all rose in popularity post heat rework. You don't need to directly change something to make it better. You can use the game's existing systems to do so.
6. (Second point addressed in #5) I never said I wanted more warframes to be as powerful as saryn. Where did I say that? When?
7. (Addressing point #6) No, all warframes rely on status. Any CO user, Ember, Nezha Saryn, Garuda, Mag, Oberon, Loki, Revenant, Volt, Wisp, Grendel, and other all use status in their abilities. The meta uses certain status for specific actions, if you take action against the status itself ALL players feel the impact regardless of warframe because it's part of the meta. Please refer to #5.1 about heat procs. She's also not the only warframe which relies on status types.
8. (Addressing point #7) And i ignored it saying that it would be possible but is not recommended. It will be difficult. Does this sound familiar to something we just heard in a devsteam? Railjack is not built for solo and it's not recommended solo but it'll be playable. If solo becomes unplayable then fine it's a problem but I know my changes will keep solo play as an option.
9. (Addressing point #8) Yes it is content if DE releases stuff with it making us revisit old areas. It also makes gameplay challenging which is something we've wanted for a long time.
10. (Addressing second point in #8) They are fine. I have answered your questions. They are DPS warframes. warframes that deal damage and they do that just fine. Please refer to point #3 and #3.1 and I've also said why they shouldn't be nerfed. 
11. (Addressing point #9) No it can't. Unless DE decides to make missions that call for CC and not DPS CC won't ever return. I literally just explained that. 
12. 9 10 11 were all spawned from direct responses to your paragraph format. They may be duplicates but they have different evidence and prove the point all the same.
13. (Addressing point #12) Says the game. ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, Excavation. All of these games have hordes that saryn thrives off of and almost all of these are used for farming the majority of what's important in warframe. The exceptions being few and far between involving boss fights, speed run missions, and maybe the occasional spy. Many of the missions players hold as valuable saryn can dominate in and it's DE's fault.
14. (Addressing point #13) What do you mean I don't have an outline? Make content that doesn't favor saryn and frames like her in a variety of ways. Eximus that counter her, situations to make saryn more cautious, or missions that call for CC more than DPS. I've also given some specific examples of such through our debate. They are general suggestions with examples of how to go about doing so. Unless you've got an issue with that?
15. (Addressing point #14) Yes game balance is always going to happen but your suggestion is the band aid. Nerfing saryn just lets another frame replace her. You cover one leak and another is made. then you cover that up and another crack forms. and another and another. Game balance isn't only dealt with in nerfs and buffs. That's a 2 dimensional thought process. 

   it's not riddled with flaws. You think it's got problems because of your way of thinking and how you perceive the game. How in any way is making Saryn and frames like her less viable, and other more viable through challenging content a messy solution creating more problems then it fixes. It's easier said then done but that doesn't mean it can't be done given enough time.

1. It would not, it's still in relation to the addressing of saryn's balance state and how to proceed which is this threads general focus. If it wasn't the case this entire conversation has been breaking the rules and should have been removed or addressed by now.  
2. Rebalancing the entire game sounds like a pretty hefty task, even given their history. And they would still as noted numerous times, have to work on other content, they can't just do two things for the entire year, this game relies on consistent content, and when it doesn't get that numbers drop, we've seen that quite a bit this year, and it wasn't a fully dry year either. Alongside Duviri they'll be working on new frames, weapons, the lighting system, the ui rework is still going on, continued work on the lich system, expanding railjack since we aren't getting the full thing this year, the new war, etc. 
3. Because it doesn't address what I've asked you to address, which is why a power design like that is acceptable. So either address why you think it is okay for a frame to empty rooms with a level of impunity that leaves other players with nothing to engage with or drop the discussion because you aren't making a point with it. 
4. And you failed to, because its an entirely flawed comparison, and isn't even on topic. In a debate about the value of cc versus dps and how enemies influence it, a defensive ability has no relevance. Where cc and nukes are involved nullifiers have the same effect, so then I continue to ask where is the difference then? 
5. You know it wasn't, but I'm glad you agree your methodology is far from direct. And they make her weaker by making her function to a lower level, that is weaker. Power isn't just numbers, it's interactions, we have frames that scale infinitely that aren't considered all that powerful because their interactions aren't meaningful, power has layers. If you're making her power less impactful, regardless of the method, you are making her weaker. 
6. I didn't say you did. 
7. Which one of those frames is also a heavy corrosive stripping viral nuker? 
8. And I'm still waiting for you to explain how it would be done, since again it matters. 
9. You didn't mention stuff to bring it with though. 
10. Again you don't get to decide what fine and balanced is, and you have yet to make an argument for why they are that way, you keep avoiding to when I ask. 
11. I already explained that it can, with support, and you couldn't explain why that wouldn't be the case, so you seem wrong here. 
12. Yet you removed it from your original post?
13. Dominating something doesn't mean it was designed for that purpose, otherwise all over powered things in all games were designed for those games. 
14. So your broad plan now is just lots of counter npcs and missions that don't focus on killing? 
15. That cycle would repeat only until the final outlier is dealt with, it isn't infinite, and the list is short, so I'm not seeing how it is a band aid. But I do agree nerfing and buffing isn't the only way to improve a games balance, but it is a large part of it, redesigning isn't something you do lightly, and its certainly not something you should be doing to fix a very small minority of tools, and at an express risk to the rest of the otherwise functioning games balance. 

I've been quite objective I feel with issues I've presented to your designs issues, and you've yet to explain them away so I'm obliged to believe they are still issues. And I've expressed multiple times why this solution is messy, it has nothing to do with the goal and everything to do with the entirely flawed process you want to take to get there, from tearing up element balance for a handful of outliers to making a very unintuitive co-op structure to even throwing solo play to the wind, all when it can be addressed with a handful of focused nerfs to specific individuals. 

[Devstream :134 Overview]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

it was specifically stated on volts proto deluxe showing, many of us were happy to hear that bit of news but basicaly all reb said was that all frames get a proto and a deluxe skin(s) eventually . now i am glad to hear the excalibur one is going well given hes my main , but also ember has at this time has a deluxe skins and had a prior design , so im not sure what your talking about in regards to her?, did you mean a  new one? as i specifically was talking about the current skins in game not any planned ones , stating those two getting another one was one i was on board with ?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

all that was stated during the volt debacle was that there was a chance for another deluxe for him down the line, not that all frames will get a proto and deluxe, at least to my awareness. and in regard to ember i meant what i said, she has no planned second deluxe for her up to this point in time, not now nor in the past. the design you are referring to secondary to her existing deluxe was the original design for her first deluxe but due to complications between DE and the concept artist the contracted for the design however that initial design became a non-option for one reason or another, the deluxe we have now was a replacement for the loss of that initial design, not a separate unrelated one. 

[Devstream :134 Overview]

6 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

well it was stated all frames will get deluxe and proto skins on a prior stream. as for nova and ember deluxe skins , these were ones that had a huge controversy behind them and a lot of negative feedback if you recal, so those two getting new ones is good imo , but every frame is to get 2 skins at minimum anyway deluxe & proto

we are also getting hydroid, ash , excalibur ,as well as ivara , zephyr, garuda, ect skins soon , so its not like males and females dont get their own stuff anyway?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

(hydroid)

 

 

 

 

 

 

excalibur(v/p/u)

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Excalibur)

 

 

 

 

 

 

(khora)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(zephyr)

 

 

 

 

 

 

(garuda)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(ash)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Ivara)

 

 

 

 

 

 

(nova)

 

the frame order and prime release order are to be expected especially since that is how its always been , dont understand why you seem miffed by something weve seen for years as a pattern

 

so far as i'm aware that was never a statement, at most rebeca said all frames will eventually get second deluxes one day because of course they will, the products sell and de's artists seem to like doing them so de will make as many rounds of them as they can to keep getting money out of them. no specifics for proto skins in particular. we'll also probably get thirds and fourths and so on if warframe lasts long enough to get fuller rosters of deluxes. as for nova getting a second deluxe, that didn't have any apparent link to the first deluxe, rebecca just made a request because she was a fan of the creators work, and ember doesn't even have a deluxe planned. the release itself is just like other deluxes, things get done when they're done, de don't enforce a priority list, and artists can be as quick or as slow as their interest and availability allows it, nova deluxe is coming so soon one can only assume because the artist assigned had the time and interest to get it done quickly. with ivara's that thing was already fairly modeled when it was revealed, so its little surprise that made it this year. 

the rest of the deluxe roster we don't know much of the progression on since de have had a busy year, apparently excal deluxe is well into modelling according to a mention of it on a prime time by rebecca, but the rest are up in there air entirely. 

[Devstream :134 Overview]

On 2019-12-06 at 4:47 PM, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

Nova Deluxe helmet looks cool, but I miss her boots. The thick chunky boots are a cool part of her silhouette. She doesn’t look the same without them.

ngl at first i thought it was khora because the build seems so similar with the deluxe, legit has the same type of legs

[We're not well equipped with high level sentient troops]

here i thought the 110 sentients from lich missions were a joke to handle

[It's time to un-nerf itzal]

This seems like the unfunny joke tbh.

Itzal is fine. 

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

On 2019-12-06 at 1:44 PM, Violet_Xe said:

   Well you would know why had the first half of my post not been removed.  -.- yey. I'll be avoiding that organized shortening mechanic from now on I guess.But to share, It only makes sense if I go in depth about my raids/eximus ideas and the situations they put you under. But due to the rules of the forums I'm not allowed to do that. I can say it would make it engaging and complex but I can't say anything further beyond giving specific short examples related to Saryn because this is her thread.

1. I will say it again.... because it seems you can't see this. I'm not allowed to say anything other than on Saryn. The ones I gave should be obvious how they affect Saryn. I have eximus for other counters but this is not the place for those. I can literally ONLY GIVE YOU THOSE EXIMUS AND SITUATIONS.
   1. Stay on-topic, be constructive and use descriptive Topic titles. Don’t rage/rant post, name and shame, have misleading topic titles, post spam, advertisements, unreleased Design Council information, pornography or any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content to the Forums in text, image, or video form. We will delete/edit it, and there will be consequences as per our warnings.
   2. This would not only count as maybe advertising but it wouldn't be on topic.
2. It is not juggling because for the last time it's taking place over a long time. This is on them for letting issues like this come up in the first place. If they mess up they take what's coming to them or let the game rot. That's what devs have to deal with like it or not. I'm offering them a way out which is flexible and left open to interpretation on purpose. You cannot ever ask for better than that.
3. It feels like you're just ignoring this. Saryn is not unrivaled, volt, mirage, and others can deal damage and wipe ESO and survivals just like she can if not quicker. Not only that she's less useful than those rivals in other areas. Nerfing her would result in mirage taking her place and we've got the same problem again. You want to nerf a warframe that's fine and flourishing in an area where she's meant to excel.
   1. Look if you nerf saryn, mirage takes her place. Then nerf mirage and volt takes her place. this will go on and on and on until nobody has damage left because this is how humans work. We move onto what's easiest and the most useful next. If your only option is nerf nerf nerf then you won't make any progress in the game. All the while this is happening you see tanks remain in the same dominant powerful position.
4. No, Saryn doesn't care about nullifiers. her spores go around nullifiers. They aren't a hard counter to her play style like limbo's cataclysm. He needs cataclysm for a lot of his builds. Saryn won't care if 2-3 nullifiers are on the field as long as 1 enemy has spores on them. That's not a hard counter or an enemy. Also by enemy I don't mean specifically an enemy. Whatever form, mission, or ally it may take the shape of it needs to dampen her popularity in some way. Nerfing does not supply her with such an enemy.
5. Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things.
6. You're right they can't custom tailor content to specific frames. But what about nerfing elementals like viral and corrosive applies to Saryn only? no this would shatter the meta and make people scramble to see what's good only to find that other eximus, which I cannot describe, counter that too. it's all up to play style and preference. couple that with situations to bend and favor some play styles over others and we have a diverse variety of everything to play with. positives and negatives on all sides.
7. You're right, solo play is always kept accessible just like with these changes. That does not mean our game wasn't developed with group play in mind. If solo players want to play then fine, it just means it'll be much harder. Who knows that may be what they want given most solo players run the most unkillable warframes.  But why talk solo play when our discussion is Saryn and how she "supposedly" breaks co op content. That doesn't mean i didn't consider solo when creating the ideas, but going solo is on them, not us.
8. The effect of my indirect nerfs through additions not only adds content, but dampens Saryn's viability and increases build variety. Is that not effective? It's either that or nerf Saryn, then nerf Mirage, then nerf Volt, then nerf whoever's next. You'll just get yourself in an endless loop and damage perfectly fine warframes. Think about it you want to nerf Saryn because she's too good when mirage can out damage and rival Saryn. So by that right mirage is liable to be nerfed too. I don't think I've heard a "nerf mirage" since her Simulor days. Brozime, roster 2019 and 18 kept her at B when even saying "she doesn't have a lot going for her". He later goes onto Saryn saying that her weaknesses are literally giant boss fights. She is not overly oppressive, just a fantastic warframe.
9. That's in the past. Not modern times. enemies can not only ignore CC but deal such heavy damage it's useless. CC is meant to help lock down and secure. if it fails at it's job that's already a massive undercut and even more if it's job is less important because killing hordes is a good portion of the game. By default it's simply less important. Why would anybody play CC to lock down an area that doesn't need to be locked down, why not just survive as a tank instead and deal damage with weapons. Raids were the best showcase and those got removed and thus Vauban slipped and faded into the abyss until his rework. Cutting damage won't bring CC back. Mission types and reworks will. New mechanics and situations will.
10. The effect of my indirect nerfs through additions not only adds content, but dampens Saryn's viability and increases build variety. Is that not effective? It's either that or nerf Saryn, then nerf Mirage, then nerf Volt, then nerf whoever's next. You'll just get yourself in an endless loop and damage perfectly fine warframes. Think about it you want to nerf Saryn because she's too good when mirage can out damage and rival Saryn. So by that right mirage is liable to be nerfed too. I don't think I've heard a "nerf mirage" since her Simulor days. Brozime, roster 2019 and 18 kept her at B when even saying "she doesn't have a lot going for her". He later goes onto Saryn saying that her weaknesses are literally giant boss fights. She is not overly oppressive, just a fantastic warframe.
11. That's in the past. Not modern times. enemies can not only ignore CC but deal such heavy damage it's useless. CC is meant to help lock down and secure. if it fails at it's job that's already a massive undercut and even more if it's job is less important because killing hordes is a good portion of the game. By default it's simply less important. Why would anybody play CC to lock down an area that doesn't need to be locked down, why not just survive as a tank instead and deal damage with weapons. Raids were the best showcase and those got removed and thus Vauban slipped and faded into the abyss until his rework. Cutting damage won't bring CC back. Mission types and reworks will. New mechanics and situations will.
12. Saryn dominates a large portion of the game because a large portion of the game is meant to be dominated by Saryn's specific role. If Saryn has a super specific role then it should come as no surprise she's powerful in missions that fit that specific role. The issue is the lack of reward in areas that don't involve Saryn's super specific role. DE is just terrible at designing that way. It gives the illusion that she oppresses others when she doesn't, DE is the thing oppressing others with the lack of content favoring other playstyles.

13.    Look I cannot give you a full plan. because the full plan doesn't exist. The full plan is made with holes for DE to slot things into. You know, like a child's toy with shapes to fit in except it's malleable and modifiable for DE's liking. The end result is always the same but DE can go about it however they want at a slow refining pace. I cannot give you many details because those details don't fit into this discussion.
       Your idea of "address the problem directly" is a band aid. I've repeated this so many times but another frame will just jump up and claim Saryn's crown and there'll be outcry about them too. Will the same thing happen? probably. This might be a discussion about "nerf volt's discharge it kills too fast" despite it's use as utility at higher levels.

       I may actually may not have been specific on this particular note so if this is where our misunderstanding has been then my bad. What I am asking for are specific changes which cover a large area of the game. I don't want weapon balance changes. What I do want are specific additions to the game that affect how players approach the game. That alone would alter how players mode weapons, mod waframes, pick warframes, and more. It's not me asking for dramatic shifts of stats or hundreds of enemies but specific additions that make players think differently.
       it's not directly shifting enemy balance. It's not DE taking co op design into their own hands, it's them changing the game on the enemies side and letting us adapt how we see fit. They use the current systems in place to change the game. They don't have to make so many new systems.

Unless what you're supplying has nothing to do with the rest of this conversation, which it clearly does, I'm not seeing how it breaches off-topic territory, this entire topic and our series of responses are about ultimately the games overall balance in regards to things like Saryn, and whether we should address the Saryn end or something else, you opted for the something else, anything branching from that is still on topic. Where advertising comes in I'm unclear on, sharing ideas isn't advertising, at least not in the way the rules take issue with, which is evident since forums are literally just exchanges of ideas/thoughts. So bring it at me. Or that first half as well. 

1. ^
2. I'm assuming this is about the application of the rework, is a bit unclear, but yes it'd be juggling because again de still have to work on other projects alongside any development on such a massive redesign, to keep the game going. and they'd have to continue working under the guidelines of that new balance structure until the game dies, or they go another route, to which they'd juggle that. live service games are in constant development, it doesn't end until the game ends. 
3. I'm not ignoring it, it's just not relevant to any of my inquiries, which you keep refraining from addressing interestingly enough. If there are similar problem factors they warrant the same need for treatment, but them existing does not erase the core issue. and as i've said many times, unless you can explain to me why their core impact should be preserved, it isn't a point to why change shouldn't happen. 
4. So does CC. Limbo's Cataclysm is a defensive ability, not explicitly CC, that's a separate ability and can also exist with a nullifier around. Defensive abilities have their own interactions with nullies, but that's not relevant since the topic is still CC. 
5. Redesigning the rest of the game is anything but direct. And having a ton of counters to her makes her weaker, and as explained before the only options to make her less viable is to bring her down to a reasonable level or bring everything up to her absurd level. You don't want the first, and I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option. 
6. Because she is the select area its a problem with, and is the only frame the relies so heavily on it. And no randomized elemental counters amongst a roster of other counters in a typically randomized team layout game does not pave options, if anything it'd enforce a stronger meta since you have to reach for as much blanket coverage as possible to avoid a very inconsistent balance state. 
7. But it hasn't kept solo play in mind, or if it has you've yet to explain it. I asked how it'd work for solo play since it doesn't seem to consider it at all and you pretty much said that was unimportant. 
8. Adding lots of rng counters isn't content, and its so immensely convoluted it wouldn't be effective in achieving an overall good balance state. I also already explained game balance is an endless loop in a live service game, no matter what, so long as de add new things to the games design things will need tuning, and that's not a bad thing. You don't just create balance in these kinds of games, you have to maintain it. Also just because you think those frames are perfectly fine doesn't make it factual, and since you've avoided multiple times to answer my questions about why the state they can achieve is okay, I'm skeptical you even believe that in earnest. 
9. It's only in the past because the state of frames like Saryn, as explained already it could be the future easily. This is a non point. 
10. Duplicate argument?
11. ^
12. Says who? And why does it have to stay that way if its clearly a bad design? 
13. You keeping saying it's made with holes for DE to fill in, but like you don't have even a vague outline, you have make some enemies that counter each frame, which you seemingly acknowledge isn't manageable, and that's it. And for no express reason when there is again easier solutions that can be just as if not more effective. 
14. Again game balance is a constant task for a in development game, it is not a bandaid, it is a reality of game design, and it goes for your ideas just as mine. 

Your notions to solve the game are much smaller than you claim them to be a riddled with flaws that render them more of a problem than a solution from what you've presented. Pretty words for a very messy idea. 

 

[Dead horse of the day: Power Creep]

38 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The game is a power fantasy. This "arms race" has been a thing for years. Large numbers are always fun, and some people find chasing them even more fun. This is why people invest in Riven Mods. Rubico Prime on release could one-shot most enemies, but what if that one-shot had a bigger number? The game has always been appealing to chase the biggest number on the screen, and Disruption highlighted that well during the Operation.

The way to make Warframe challenging is adding mechanics that are not always oriented towards damage. I use this example often, but look at the Profit Taker. Your damage per hit is relevant, but not as relevant as cleverly equipping as many damage types as possible without sacrificing your DPS. This fight makes the Battacor interesting over a similar weapon or Exodia Contagion over a weapon like Redeemer Prime. 

Adding enemies like the Wolf of Saturn Six or Kuva Liches does not really make the game harder. It instead just pushes you to use more brute force damage. This isn't hard to achieve in the game, and they become just another generic enemy to blast through.

To me, I would personally like to see more things like Trials. It's a highly unpopular opinion, but missions that incentivize speed and focus on an objective outside of damage are fun. Huge damage numbers are fun, but your choices are more limited compared to objectives that have many different strategies and avenues.

So why not just create a random number generator that always gives higher numbers and play that? Higher numbers aren't inherently good or bad or fun or boring because they're just numbers, they're meaningless without being assigned to something to give value to. We prize high numbers to some extent in Warframe because yes it shows how powerful we are, but even that power is only in relation to how it addresses gameplay, Ash prime was a powerful frame by any numeric metric, he could scale his damage to effectively infinity one shotting anything with a covert build, that's effectively infinite numbers, but that didn't make him innately more fun or desirable for the game. Octavia scales infinitely, so that's big numbers too, but is she super popular or enjoyable as well? Usage says no. Numerics are just a tool, a gameplay modifier, to help craft an experience, but the core experience is still what drives the value of the rest of those factors. We could deal the largest numbers in the world and that wouldn't make the game more fun unless it lends itself to something to create an experience. That said, the ops focus seems more on that later experience rather than just express numbers, since again those mean nothing without application. Dealing 1 damage to an enemy with 10 hp or 1000 damage to a enemy with 10000 is null difference gameplay wise, it's not just bigger numbers that are the perceived problem, but how they interact with other values to impact the overall experience, which you can agree with or not, but best to address it on that stage rather than some sideways arbitrary factor to the core grievance, which to be clear I agree with. 

In regards to just facilitating engagements needs through a different style of game design that forgoes the broken combat structure, that definitely is an option to consider, but then you have to question how wide that application needs to go to function and if its worth those extra loops to jump through just to preserve well...whatever is you want to preserve over it, I assume room clearing. Yes experiences like the Profit Taker and Eidolons don't suffer from the same kind of egregious power creep than game has seeped into the rest of its content, but it's foolish to say it hasn't been impacted given it's a design directly resulting from a need to counter it, and comes with its own trade offs in kind, namely this very different approach to combat and style of play as a result of having to bar a bunch of original combat aspects or heavily alter them to maintain difficulty, which may not be inherently desirable. There are plenty of people who have bones to pick with the prevalence of ability immunity in certain stages of content to create difficulty, or the application of iframes, the selectiveness of the tool roster for them, and the like, all as the cost of making balance very mechanical, and in select areas only. So while that solution might seem ideal for you, to people who like the core style of combat from outside what is typically boss content, that might not be how they want that engagement to happen, through a forced shift outside the standard combat style. I certainly am of those who would prefer all abilities be more blanket application and flexible at the expense of not being so overpowered, rather than have them selectively valuable if the application allows for it, or otherwise be made entirely inert. 

Likewise with trials. 

Curious as I am, do you truly feel certain states of power affairs, such as frames being able to empty rooms in an instant including things you aren't even remotely aware of, is truly the best possible experience for the game to you? That any other way could only possibly hinder your enjoyment and there is no other room for betterment? That it is the best combat design/cycle? Or given your leaning to more non-combat oriented gameplay to make for more engaging play, do you perhaps not have a strong fondest of combat experiences to begin with? That could explain your leaning to damage numbers as a strong signifier of a good combat experience. 

 

 

[Empyrean co-op...]

2 hours ago, Samhel said:

I know it's a co-op game and everything but, what should i do if i don't want to have randoms on my railjack (toxicity, and no i don't want to bother kicking out players, i've had enough of toxic players back when i played league of legends years ago) and my clanmates don't have time to play when i'm able to play (latenight mostly)?
I don't even like eidolon hunts and i'm trying to just buy everything with platinum because so many randoms become toxic just because they can't do 5x3... (wtf guys), because most players are just impatient douchbags in public... 

You can try to recruit people to your clan that are in your time zone maybe? Or just go at it solo even? Succeeding in Railjack isn't hard locked to group play, and frankly everyone is getting ahead of themselves with this whole difficulty curve deal when we've yet experience it, DE on their own can't be trusted to gauge the difficulty of this games content because they've just historically had a bad track of understanding that part of the game, and just because they think it'll be hard by their standards that hardly means it'll translate the same to any moderately geared/experience player. could be a cake walk, will probably be a cake walk. 

[Will future Warframe content be locked behind running/owning a railjack?]

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Railjack will be the "future" of warframe. So it's an absolute yes.

Don't worry, Railjack missions is soloable. But it's a bit difficult until DE added AI crew members.

Potentially difficult, given DE's history with the concept of difficulty it's a stretch to assume what DE deems as difficult translates to what most of the playerbase would consider difficult, or even middling. Frankly I don't for a moment think people won't be able to do a lot of this empyrean stuff solo with close to no complications so long as they are moderately geared. 

[You'll be able to issue commands to other players in your Railjack (We will need a kick button for rogue crew)]

Kick systems can be a pretty risky option to implement, tis easy to abuse and promote toxicity through, should at least wait until the update lands and see how the overall atmosphere winds up before leaping head long into that direction of design. 

This game is pretty notorious for being overly easy to the point of a dead weight or three having not a ton of hindrance to being able to fulfill a missions objective with perfect ease. I'm skeptical this won't be the case for Empyrean as well. 

[Feeling nostalgic today and missed what Warframe used to be like]

2 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

This is because they refuse to add higher level missions and separate them from the star chart chaff. High level players don't have a choice.

They should consider a rift system similar to Diablo. That way everyone can find their difficulty comfort zone and be rewarded appropriately.

Nah, it's just because they refuse to trim a few over performers who propped up over several years of uninhibited power creep. Further stretching levels and splitting the playerbase isn't going to bring in the power gap between certain frames.

[Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn]

12 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

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   I don't want to go in depth here because this isn't about my raid concepts. It's about saryn. I can reference small snippets and examples which affect her and that's what I did, but posting an entire list of possibilities would take ages of explaining and would take too much time to update and rewrite for this forum post. I'm tired and sleepy. So there's no need for me to dive into them anyways because that's not what the discussion is here for.
   I've mentioned before that these changes will lead to a mixture of new and updated content which won't favor saryn. This means other warframes rise. I've said this multiple times. "my route is add content to the game which indirectly impacts and silently pushes players away from content Saryn" that was a typo my bad. shhhhhh nobody saw that. 
   My route isn't specifically focused on saryn. I leave it like this for multiple reasons. one of which is, as before, I leave it open for DE to flexibly work with and adapt to their world so they can't hide behind the shield of "that doesn't fit our world". If it doesn't fit, then mold it to fit. I also leave it like this because this isn't a discussion about "how to fix warframe's problems" rather it's how to fix saryn, if she even needs fixing. She doesn't need fixing, what she needs is an enemy like limbo and nullifiers, something that can shut her down. I'm not going to go in depth and post my ideas of how to counter the meta when it's not the point of discussion or the topic of the thread, infact it's against the rules to do so.

   Hopefully for the last time I don't have to repeat this

   I've repeatedly stated I want to silently push players away from warframes like Saryn. I want to use her as a catalyst to spearhead change or as a representative for her AoE damage class. Build content with her kit in mind, to cover playstyles like hers, and have content play against her. Do this while keeping warframes like Vauban in mind who represent the pinnicle of CC. Juggling haha... this way lets you create ideas which favor certain playstyles over others and working this into content makes for great ways to take saryn down a peg without direct nerfs.
   She doesn't need to be scaled down, other frames just need the rise in viability. Without a call to play those frames they'll forever remain left behind. And you can't say she's too powerful either because I, a multitasking durable support nezha, can be competitive and even overtake saryns on damage while focusing more on elements and animations that look cool putting me further at a disadvantage.
   I'm also going to ignore the part about solo players because there are fixes for that. I'm not going to say them, saryn topic, but this is a Co-Op game. A multiplayer game meant to be played in squads of 4. You go at it knowing that so it's on you 100% of the way through the game.
   The part about balance is important, but... should we not expect DE to fix their game as a developer? Even then it would be over time allowing for them to make balance changes accordingly to feedback which is why I said over time. I personally do think it would work. I could be wrong, I'm not a game dev and i don't know their exact resources... then again neither do you. If we've a way out of the loop and create a permanent fix, even if it takes time, I'll take that over a bandaid nerf to saryn which only brings another dps warframe like mirage to the forefront of survival and ESO.

   Enemies have become resistant to CC over time. Because many enemies making up our rewarding core content are immune to CC, CC is effectively useless. CC fails at so many aspects of the game DE puts value in that it's not worth using. How will CC ever help eidolon fights or orb mother fights? How will CC ever help arbitration when half the time they're immune to CC. So many things don't care about CC allowing damage and tanking rule supreme. What you want is to take away damage and ignore key problems resulting in tanks having monopoly over important content.
   Also yeah guns do make CC somewhat irrelivent don't they? Why CC something if you could loose the tigris. Weapons are damage themselves after all. Why CC the enemy when your tanks can survive the impossible? If a gun kills the enemies before CC can take effect then there's no point in CC unless the situation calls for it, even then defense frames make good substitutes and often bring more to the table than CC frames.
   I used sapping osprey as an example. CC has 0 effect on their mines. They continue to pulse with lethal energy to everything and no CC protects you from that. If DE is going to release more stuff like this, like say the sentient and their little tricks, then CC will fall further and nerfing saryn won't do anything but remove more viable frames from battle. Some CC can't even chain and lock the most basic sentient enemies battalyst and conculyst. 

 You're right they are special sectors but not everyone runs ESO and survival. How often do you see Saryn going up against these enemies? Now how much is CC seen in these areas? Now, follow me here. If Saryn isn't seen in any of these areas, and neither is CC. Then saryn obviously isn't the sole issue pushing CC down is she? You can't say Saryn is the thing that represses CC because that isn't true. Her removal will not bring CC back no matter how much you want to believe that. These enemies may be specific and the sectors even more so but a good portion of the player base will fight them on a daily basis making CC the last thing on their mind even if there wasn't a saryn. If situations do not call for CC it will remain forgotten.

   Now, hopefully, for the very last time I can say this. My ideas will alter how many people play dps warframes, who don't need to be directly affected, meaning they can stay just as healthy, powerful, and useful as they currently are while other frames rise in popularity and other missions can get fame. You cannot imagine that DE can manage this in a couple months. This is why I said "Over a long time" Because this tackles several critical issues in the game.
   Rather than nerf saryn, which would only result in mirage taking her place in ESO, and restart this nerf buff cycle why don't we try to find a solution. Even if this solution takes a year to make I'd be fine with waiting if DE can finally move on from an endless cycle of birth, nerf, and buff. If this gets fixed then YAY we get content made even faster than before. This plan not only gives them time for larger contents but makes it a flexible plan De can mold and bend to however they see fit. I have stated my route, both in this thread and outside of it. The only difference is how clear I am allowed to be due to the rules of the forums restricting me to only speaking about the topic at hand.

How did we arrive at raid concepts? This was in response to asking for more clarity on your actual game plan for this supposedly sweeping game evolution that would make all content diverse and engaging and ever complex and heck create peace on earth it seems. That's what I want shared in depth, not raid concepts that would sweep up perhaps a tenth of the games active base in the best of conditions. 

And you know what else wouldn't favor Saryn so much without including a bunch of convoluted rng mechanics that tear into other functional systems making a complete mess of the games balance? Just nerfing her into a reasonable place. I asked before so I'll ask again, how do you think all those counters you listed would function for the over all game when so much of it is only a problem for a select few? How it would impact solo play? How it would come down on DE's staff and limited resources to juggle so many pointed modifiers? How it fits into a constantly shifting and growing game and how manageable it would be in the long run? It's a rather restrictive list that requires a lot of precision what you asked, and seems rather inflexible, you have to consider how that comes down on the rest of the game when mentioning it, not just how it comes down on Saryn just for that sake of indirectness. 

Saryn also already has something like nullifiers, they're called nullifiers. 

Also why does fixing her have to be so silent and indirect? Why does effectively the image of how she is changed matter if she winds up weaker all the same? It seems like a very convoluted and childish reasoning to do so much extra work just to avoid being direct about what is ultimately being done. 

DE also cannot possibly create content specific to each frames power range with specific counters, again that would be highly convoluted and effectively impossible to keep with on scale to the level of frame and weapon diversity for the game, if that's the direction you think we should go. And to extend that into a largely randomized co-operative environment assuming you get past the explicit work force hurdles, that's just a whole other level of incompatible to deal with. How would you have these specified counters work in such an environment? Would you start regulating what frames matchmake with which others to make such a system work? How would that impede matchmaking availability/time as is pivotal for a live service game? How would affect players freedom of choice? 

I'd also greatly appreciate if you didn't ignore my points, so no, please do address solo play, because that's an important matter to the  game as well, near 20% of gameplay is done solo, that's a sizable chunk of people to just not discuss the conditions of in relation to your sweeping changes. Even DE recognizes despite this game being co-op that it should be able to appeal to solo play to a decent extent because its generally only a boon for them, and the game is meant to be fairly casual. Outside highly endgame activities DE have always kept solo play an accessible side option of play, and with those numbers I can somewhat appreciate why, so again do address their part in this whole thing. 

 As to DE fixing their game, nobody said they shouldn't. I'm simply questioning the effectiveness of your don't nerf just remake the game rationale to keep power levels like Saryn from direct changes. 

Yes enemies have become resistant to CC by being made resistant to CC, that feels fairly obvious. The impact of those immunities in overall play though you keep avoiding addressing, again and again and again, so to beat this dead horse some more, why is this different for cc than it is nukes when they have largely the same application/impact? Nullifiers existed before and after nukes started creeping up in power, CC did fine and dandy until the creeping, why? Because enemies need managing when they aren't all dying in an instant, which is what CC is good for, and without map emptying nukes that comes back in a style a reasonable bit. And aint no gun that can empty several rooms, or even a room, in an instant and without having to face and target enemies with a limited response time per being operated by humans. 

Frames like Saryn dominate a large portion of the game leaving room for nothing less than them, change that and there is room for others. And maybe DE can even lean back on some of the restrictions in other more specific modes since a more balanced and manageable state would start to arise for those frames. Less immunities and what not. 

Beyond that, your ideas would change how people play certainly, in what way is unclear because I'm still waiting on the full plan since what you've given is clearly not enough on its own. They also don't leave the frames as "healthy and powerful" as they are seemingly, because its a lot of restrictions that curb their effectiveness and application, which is the only spot of reason in all this, despite it still being far too convoluted over just a direct addressing of the problem. You also understate how long this would all take, what you're asking for is effectively a redesign of the games entire approach to combat, enemy design, co-op design, and weapon balance, which would take many many years to achieve even as a focused effort, which is again not an option for a live service game, so maybe something would come by 2025 with who knows how much compromise which is rather not ideal to leave the game imbalanced for that long, all to not nerf a handful of frames and possibly break the rest of the game. And no when it is finished that doesn't put DE out of the wood work unless they stop development on the game right after, because so long as continued additions to the games balance occur balance adjustments will continue to be needed for the game. This isn't an end all solution, that isn't a real thing. 

[Feeling nostalgic today and missed what Warframe used to be like]

10 hours ago, mrhapps said:

nukes still scale badly unless were talking about saryn or your version of scaling ends at lvl 170. We have had energy pads a LONG time, and i remember resonating quake banshee covering the entire old draco map so we could all just stand beside banshee and emote NOTHING has as much range as old banshee. 

what content involves level 170+ enemies outside duration runs? and we did, and they cost resources and time which most people didn't spend just to be able to spam them constantly in any mission. banshee only worked for defense more or less. so all in all, a much more narrow scope of play. 

[Feeling nostalgic today and missed what Warframe used to be like]

9 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

People were still nuking maps back then before you could move as well. Just now instead of it being a few things that could do that, we have more options to nuke maps into oblivion. but eh, all semantics i guess. 

Not really, nukes scaled terribly and had less range and couldn't spam as efficiently because our energy economy wasn't as broken, nukes weren't remotely as intrusive back then (granted they still sort of were but to a much lesser degree) as they are now.