To D. E. - We Really Don't Need New Filler.

[DreadScourge]

This thread has been updated to reflect the opinions of the smart individuals below you. Tilesets, I do not count as filler. The game needs expansion, I just worry that sometimes DE gets carried away. I also hope that should enemy AI be improved (I sincerely hope) that it could be applied to newer tilesets. I'm sick of guns though, seriously.

 

(Before reading here are examples of filler: overzealous number-scaling difficulty, non unique content [guns mainly], things that take control away from the player to compensate for lack of difficulty, lack of improvement on drop rates of necessary/desired items to create 'false gameplay.')

 

Here is the edited thread:

 

We need blatantly overpowered abilities to compromise power for utility. (Please do not say "what frames need changes, we need accurate feedback." If you truly read these forums at all you immediately know all the frames and their current standing with this community.)

 

We need enemy AI that doesn't run in circles, get stuck on everything, and turn on a dime despite having heavy armor.

 

We need an intuitive version (not a blunt cop-out) of nightmare mode.

 

Stealth I can leave or take honestly. It would have to be an entire update, and they have placed the framework for it if it were to come.

 

I mean how much of this game feels like filler to you guys? How many times do you get a shiny new weapon and then notice how little of a difference it makes in the ultimately flawed gameplay?

 

I have personally sunk over 70$ into this game because when I started, I thought that the core gameplay elements were in a very early stage. I saw the AI, especially, as a placeholder, but honestly the smartest thing they did and still do is take cover. Hardly anything has changed in the core mechanics of the game since I started the weekend of open beta.

 

I thought update 9 was a "polish" update.

 

Sorry if this seems a bit whiny or accusing, but I honestly feel disappointed whenever a new weapon comes out.

 

AI AI AI AI AI - Above all else, the AI needs work. The game shouldn't be punishing (high level enemies have insane armor and damage) it should be challenging. (Enemies coordinate with each other and don't run in paths that I could easily paint on the ground with a brush after watching them move for 10 seconds.)

 

And remember above all else - Quality over Quantity.

 

Thank you.

 

EDIT: After receiving feedback from very intelligent individuals I have decided to make a slight change to the subject. Tilesets, I can dig 'em. The game needs THAT level of development. Also, I am aware that the DE Staff aren't worker ants who can change their roles on the spot. This thread is focused towards promised features, and lacking elements.

 

I have thus changed the title to reflect this.

 

EDIT 2

 

Da_Big_D__ challenged me to further elaborate on my current discontent with the enemy AI. Here is my response:

 

Thank you for your in-depth feedback, I do appreciate the challenge of explaining my expectations (especially at ~3AM).

 

Have you ever noticed that enemies will yell "reloading!" yet their allies to not provide intentional suppressing fire for cover? This is something very basic for any group of armed individuals. Also, enemies don't protect high priority units like commanders. While we're on that, why are there Grineer Commanders and Corpus Techs? Do they ever really show any commanding abilities on the battlefield?

 

My main point is that if enemies acted as tight, cohesive units this game would rise in difficulty, the good kind of difficulty. Commanders could instruct Scorpions to hold in front, while the Sawmen hold the middle. As the Scorpions pull unsuspecting or rushing Tenno in, the Sawmen could be wailing on them as they are disabled, and during this entire process, the Lancers would be covering the Scorpions and Sawmen from the flanks and back.

 

Even more important (and this ties into the previous paragraph) there is no "authority system" in place. Grineer, Corpus, Infested, and even Corrupted do not pay heed to important allies. There is no reason to target a Commander, Ancient, or Tech first besides their inconvenient abilities. Killing them will have no effect on the enemies they are near. The enemies will not scatter and break ranks, nor will another important unit come to the aid of their allies to take command.

 

 

It is the fact that every enemy you fight is a meatshield with a number on it that breaks the immersion and makes this game soley based on "how fast can I kill everything I see, and what weapon do I need to do it?"

Edited August 29, 2013 by DreadScourge

[GreyEnneract]

This again.

[Fenrisulfr]

Like always, there are more teams working on various things. All of the things you've listed are not mutually exclusive.

Granted, some things do need additional polishing and need to be concentrated more. But this kind of post doesn't help. At all.

[DreadScourge]

This again.

Must mean it's a popular issue. Hard to search "Core Elements broken and weapons cant fix it" without getting "No topics found" back.

Edited August 29, 2013 by DreadScourge

[Slurmageddon]

You rag on the AI but didnt mention the most flawed AI in the game.

The rescue target. Not criticizing, I just found it odd.

 

Also, I could live with a stealth system introduction, and chat UI (with associated recent lobby-making issues) overhaul before enemy AI being spruced up. The in-game chat looks Alpha to VERY early beta and I think is long overdue an update

Edited August 29, 2013 by Santaphrax

[DreadScourge]

Like always, there are more teams working on various things. All of the things you've listed are not mutually exclusive.

Granted, some things do need additional polishing and need to be concentrated more. But this kind of post doesn't help. At all.

I am aware that multiple teams work on different things. I don't expect a weapon designer to drop what he is doing and go program AI. I just find it odd is all. Are the AI programmers on vacation? What's the delay on features that were promised? This post is a bit more "passionate" than what I usually write, but hell man it's just boggling my mind.

 

If YOU know what's up, tell me, because I am not getting any answers anywhere else.

Edited August 29, 2013 by DreadScourge

[DreadScourge]

You rag on the AI but didnt mention the most flawed AI in the game.

The rescue target. Not criticizing, I just found it odd.

 

Yeah, the reason I didn't mention the rescue AI is because they are replacing it soon. Kudos to them for that. I don't think watching the freed escort running into a corner endlessly was anybody's favorite activity.

[Aure7]

Was really dissappoited by the update 9 as well, there was good stuff, but now what was promised.

[DreadScourge]

Was really dissappoited by the update 9 as well, there was good stuff, but now what was promised.

There were some interesting things added, but sadly they didn't increase my gameplay enjoyment. There were just more things to do the same ol' same ol' with.

[CrazyCanadian24]

We need the stealth system that was promised.

 

We need blatantly overpowered abilities to compromise power for utility. (Please do not say "what frames need changes, we need accurate feedback." If you truly read these forums at all you immediately know all the frames and their current standing with this community.)

 

We need enemy AI that doesn't run in circles, get stuck on everything, and turn on a dime despite having heavy armor.

 

We need an intuitive version (not a blunt cop-out) of nightmare mode.

 

I mean how much of this game feels like filler to you guys? How many times do you get a shiny new weapon and then notice how little of a difference it makes in the ultimately flawed gameplay?

 

I have personally sunk over 70$ into this game because when I started, I thought that the core gameplay elements were in a very early stage. I saw the AI, especially, as a placeholder, but honestly the smartest thing they did and still do is take cover. Hardly anything has changed in the core mechanics of the game since I started the weekend of open beta.

 

I thought update 9 was a "polish" update.

 

Sorry if this seems a bit whiny or accusing, but I honestly feel disappointed whenever a new weapon comes out.

 

AI AI AI AI AI - Above all else, the AI needs work. The game shouldn't be punishing (high level enemies have insane armor and damage) it should be challenging. (Enemies coordinate with each other and don't run in paths that I could easily paint on the ground with a brush after watching them move for 10 seconds.)

 

And remember above all else - Quality over Quantity.

 

Thank you.

 

[Blatantfool]

  We need all of that, sure. But we also need more Tilesets and weapons honestly can't hurt.

 

 Edit: Well, need it all aside from the stealth thing. It'd be lying to try to claim I expect it to be anything other then maybe an hours gimmicky fun before I'm bored with it. Warframe doesn't have the setup it needs to match really good stealth games.

[Crond]

Say for yourself, please.

[DreadScourge]

Say for yourself, please.

It's "we" as long as there are more people who feel the same way. If you feel otherwise, feel free to break yourself apart from the group as you have.

[Rengakun]

I believe the Devs would respond to this using the following copypasta:

 

 

 

We are acutely aware of the [insert community here]. As with all feedback/suggestions, whether it be from groups or individuals, we weigh them all equally and work through the pros and cons of the suggestions. We cannot move forward with all suggestions made and we have to keep in mind our original goals of the game [insert goal here] and making the game fun for as many people as possible, not just the core group. While we do actively listen to our core group (and as mentioned, we cannot follow up with every suggestion made), who we do value greatly, we have to keep in mind what is best for [insert game name here] in the long term, and that is attracting as many new players as possible.

What is a pleasant surprise is that most of the items suggested by [insert community here] have already been in development or under review. It takes a while for our [insert number here] member staff to get these bigger features into the game and all we can do is ask for patience. It’s been a long road since Closed Beta and we are still striving to get our core features online. We have been prioritizing tasks based on the biggest impact for as many players possible. This is why we’re pushing to have things like improvements to [insert game feature here].

Our primary goal is to deliver a game we have always planned from the start. There have been, and will be more, course corrections over the lifetime of [insert game name here]. That is one of the traits of F2P development. As the project matures, things change. The size and impact of changes are most drastic at the start of a project and become smaller and more content driven as time goes on. If there’s a need to implement a whole new segment to the game, it can be done as gradually as desired or as one large expansion type change.

We have been at fault in communications and [insert an incident here]. We learn from these mistakes and keep moving forward trying to correct as we do. There have been times when we expose too little information, and times where we expose too much too soon. We’re still trying to find that balance in between.

It’s great to share info on new features and upcoming releases (because we’re as excited as you are to see them in action), but if information is released too soon, a lot of opinions are formed on pure speculation and we just don’t have enough time in the day to keep answering all questions that may arise from a news release.

[DreadScourge]

  We need all of that, sure. But we also need more Tilesets and weapons honestly can't hurt.

 

 Edit: Well, need it all aside from the stealth thing. It'd be lying to try to claim I expect it to be anything other then maybe an hours gimmicky fun before I'm bored with it. Warframe doesn't have the setup it needs to match really good stealth games.

I agree with you on tilesets, we need more of them eventually. Weapons add to the game like rocks add to a wheelbarrow, I mean the wheelbarrow is obviously more full, but it's all just rocks.

 

As for stealth, I can kind of see that. And that would be on the bottom of the list for me as well.

 

(also if you feel it is necessary you can move my topic to Gameplay Feedback based on how this post struck you.)

Edited August 29, 2013 by DreadScourge

[DreadScourge]

I believe the Devs would respond to this using the following copypasta:

You made my day.

[Tysrillin]

It was said in one of the Livestreams that there wouldn't be an update dedicated to stealth gameplay but rather incremental improvements over time.

[DreadScourge]

It was said in one of the Livestreams that there wouldn't be an update dedicated to stealth gameplay but rather incremental improvements over time.

I would give my left toe to see these incremental improvements actually start happening!

[Da_Big_D__]

The thing is, what can the AI do better than it already does?

 

There are a few glitches that need to ironed out for sure. Infested shouldn't idly run in circles. Grineer with guns shouldn't charge up to melee range of an objective before engaging. Certainly, some of the pathing needs to be worked on.

 

None of this is particularly major stuff though. Is that what you think the game needs? Is there more, or is that the gist of it? A handful of AI bugfixes?

 

Does that merit a separate topic in General Discussion?

Edited August 29, 2013 by Da_Big_D__

[DreadScourge]

The thing is, what can the AI do better than it already does?

 

There are a few glitches that need to ironed out for sure. Infested shouldn't idly run in circles. Grineer with guns shouldn't charge up to melee range of an objective before engaging. Certainly, some of the pathing needs to be worked on.

 

None of this is particularly major stuff though. Is that what you think the game needs? Is there more, or is that the gist of it? A handful of AI bugfixes?

The AI needs an overhaul. There are some bugfixes, but enemies ignore each other completely. The only enemies I can think of who actively play a team roll is Shield Ospreys. The tenno are fighting massive armies of (supposedly) coordinated tyrants who can't even properly work as a cohesive unit! I mean I can live with the Grineer running in circles rarely and the OBVIOUS pathing, but it's the fact that every enemy is a solo agent. They do not interact with each other, and that severely impacts challenge, fun and immersion.

[SabreUr]

  We need all of that, sure. But we also need more Tilesets and weapons honestly can't hurt.

 

 Edit: Well, need it all aside from the stealth thing. It'd be lying to try to claim I expect it to be anything other then maybe an hours gimmicky fun before I'm bored with it. Warframe doesn't have the setup it needs to match really good stealth games.

 

This. With so many planets and mission nodes new tilesets are a must. And I doubt that animators, artists and level designers know anything about AI, programmin and so on - we should let them do their job.

 

I agree, that AI in this game is lacking, and we should push this issue, so someone from DE will come and at least tell us what is going on and what improvement we can expect. And not in stealth, but in honest-to-God gunfight. BUT - if you think about it - when you are running with 0.1 speed of light, guns blazing, jumping like rabbit on a pogo stick, what good will awesome FEAR-level AI do? They may try to surround you, but when they will be ready, you will be three rooms away. At some point your armor/shield/hp/regenerating sentinel will negate everything that Grineer can throw at you. And everytime when DE introduced some mechanism that will keep you in place (damaging laser walls, Scorpions, Nervos, Rollers) people were loosing more S#&$ than during dysentery outbreak.

And fun fact, Digital Extremes are looking for AI programmer. http://www.digitalextremes.com/careers/postings/programming/aigameplay-programmer and since Steve mentioned that after release of Star Trek the only thing on their plate is Warframe, I guess that this guy may be needed fo Warframe AI.

[CaptainHugeKatana]

We need the stealth system that was promised.

 

We need blatantly overpowered abilities to compromise power for utility. (Please do not say "what frames need changes, we need accurate feedback." If you truly read these forums at all you immediately know all the frames and their current standing with this community.)

 

We need enemy AI that doesn't run in circles, get stuck on everything, and turn on a dime despite having heavy armor.

 

We need an intuitive version (not a blunt cop-out) of nightmare mode.

 

I mean how much of this game feels like filler to you guys? How many times do you get a shiny new weapon and then notice how little of a difference it makes in the ultimately flawed gameplay?

 

I have personally sunk over 70$ into this game because when I started, I thought that the core gameplay elements were in a very early stage. I saw the AI, especially, as a placeholder, but honestly the smartest thing they did and still do is take cover. Hardly anything has changed in the core mechanics of the game since I started the weekend of open beta.

 

I thought update 9 was a "polish" update.

 

Sorry if this seems a bit whiny or accusing, but I honestly feel disappointed whenever a new weapon comes out.

 

AI AI AI AI AI - Above all else, the AI needs work. The game shouldn't be punishing (high level enemies have insane armor and damage) it should be challenging. (Enemies coordinate with each other and don't run in paths that I could easily paint on the ground with a brush after watching them move for 10 seconds.)

 

And remember above all else - Quality over Quantity.

 

Thank you.

Agree

[Da_Big_D__]

The AI needs an overhaul. There are some bugfixes, but enemies ignore each other completely. The only enemies I can think of who actively play a team roll is Shield Ospreys. The tenno are fighting massive armies of (supposedly) coordinated tyrants who can't even properly work as a cohesive unit! I mean I can live with the Grineer running in circles rarely and the OBVIOUS pathing, but it's the fact that every enemy is a solo agent. They do not interact with each other, and that severely impacts challenge, fun and immersion.

 

So what would you propose be done differently? How would units "interact" with one another? In what way or ways would the AI be meaningfully different than what we have now?

 

I guess my point is, there is only so much to be done with regard to AI. At high enough difficulty they perform flanking and advancement manuevers, and press objectives fairly well, especially outside of Mobile Defense consoles. They're perfectly accurate with hitscan weapons, but I suppose they could lead to lead shots for projectiles. What exactly is it you're expecting to be different, though? Interactions, like what? Two Grineer passing ammo back and forth? Or something more combative, like an Ancient hoisting a balled up Runner and hurling it at you? Stuff like that is novel, but it wears thin quickly without meaningfully adding to the gameplay experience.

 

I guess, beyond bugfixes, I just have no idea what it is you want; and if I don't, DE definitely doesn't.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Da_Big_D__

[DreadScourge]

I guess, beyond bugfixes, I just have no idea what it is you want; and if I don't, DE definitely doesn't.

Thank you for your in-depth feedback, I do appreciate the challenge of explaining my expectations (especially at ~3AM).

 

Have you ever noticed that enemies will yell "reloading!" yet their allies to not provide intentional suppressing fire for cover? This is something very basic for any group of armed individuals. Also, enemies don't protect high priority units like commanders. While we're on that, why are there Grineer Commanders and Corpus Techs? Do they ever really show any commanding abilities on the battlefield?

 

My main point is that if enemies acted as tight, cohesive units this game would rise in difficulty, the good kind of difficulty. Commanders could instruct Scorpions to hold in front, while the Sawmen hold the middle. As the Scorpions pull unsuspecting or rushing Tenno in, the Sawmen could be wailing on them as they are disabled, and during this entire process, the Lancers would be covering the Scorpions and Sawmen from the flanks and back.

 

Even more important (and this ties into the previous paragraph) there is no "authority system" in place. Grineer, Corpus, Infested, and even Corrupted do not pay heed to important allies. There is no reason to target a Commander, Ancient, or Tech first besides their inconvenient abilities. Killing them will have no effect on the enemies they are near. The enemies will not scatter and break ranks, nor will another important unit come to the aid of their allies to take command.

 

It is the fact that every enemy you fight is a meatshield with a number on it that breaks the immersion and makes this game soley based on "how fast can I kill everything I see, and what weapon do I need to do it?"

[Tsrintox]

I just agree with this post, every other post I make I mention AI interaction. Some even normal patrol paths need improvement. Though I see how a change of ai could create lots of bugs, bad feedback, loss of players, and create lots of work in early stages. I think long term it would be good for the game though.