Kuva survival should have some sort of scaling rewards

[Walkampf]

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb Mudfam:

This in no way precludes the need for some sense of purpose when you play. It's beyond absurd to claim that a game like this doesn't need goals. Are you actually trying to make that statement?

You are talking about "purpose" in a video game? Is this your serious opinion? Don't take this the wrong way, I'll stop trolling for a minute and speak serious:Is your live so hollow, that you need a videogame do get a feeling of accomplishment?

Videogames aren't jobs or family, they are fun little pastime. Their very essence is to waste sparetime.

Anyway,

vor einer Stunde schrieb Mudfam:

Back to the OP, I honestly don't know why DE are so scared to introduce some form of scaling rewards.

They are not scared, they tried such system in the past and from their personal experience those systems are not the way they want their game to go.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb Mudfam:

the kuva rewards are extremely stingy

So, let's say they increase the amount of Kuva, then what? People get used to upgrades in their lives incredibly fast. If DE increases to amount, it will take 2-4 weeks until the whole issue comes back again.

[birdobash]

5 hours ago, Walkampf said:

 

You are talking about "purpose" in a video game? Is this your serious opinion? Don't take this the wrong way, I'll stop trolling for a minute and speak serious:Is your live so hollow, that you need a videogame do get a feeling of accomplishment?

Videogames aren't jobs or family, they are fun little pastime. Their very essence is to waste sparetime.

Anyway,

They are not scared, they tried such system in the past and from their personal experience those systems are not the way they want their game to go.

 

So, let's say they increase the amount of Kuva, then what? People get used to upgrades in their lives incredibly fast. If DE increases to amount, it will take 2-4 weeks until the whole issue comes back again.

So what your saying is, warframe should have 0 sense of progression and you should feel like you are totally wasting your time playing this game and should quit

You may think that, but DE probably doesnt want their entire playerbase to uninstall the game, bad for business yknow.

[Mudfam]

5 hours ago, Walkampf said:

You are talking about "purpose" in a video game? Is this your serious opinion? Don't take this the wrong way, I'll stop trolling for a minute and speak serious:Is your live so hollow, that you need a videogame do get a feeling of accomplishment?

Videogames aren't jobs or family, they are fun little pastime. Their very essence is to waste sparetime.

Oh please, this is such an incredibly petty, fail little attempt at belittling me and by extension what I said. Just what are you trying to do exactly? You really think you can imply that the context for purpose here was my life and not why you complete a mission in Warframe? This is so incredibly pathetic, I can't believe it.

Let me rephrase that for you:

Every game needs goals. In Warframe that is farming something.

I'd recommend not saying anything if you don't have a point to make over this random defensive silliness, it makes one very much the fool.

[DreisterDino]

Am 30.8.2018 um 07:56 schrieb birdobash:

I mean think about it, to roll a riven past 9 rolls you need 3500 kuva per roll, you would need to do either 3 floods, 6 siphons, or stay in kuva survival for a minimum of 17.5 extractors or 26.25 minutes to roll a riven once, and rolling a riven doesn't even guarantee a good riven.

This should be enough as a reason for scaling kuva rewards or if everyone is against scaling rewards....simply raise the amount of kuva you always get or lower the costs to reroll a riven. Like its now its simply a bad joke...i was farming kuva for some time alot to roll rivens, its incredible how much time you waste for literally nothing doing that. I'm glad i stopped that.

 

Today i ran a kuva survival for fun with 4 clanmates - 24 minutes - 3000 kuva. Cant even roll a riven once (all of the rivens i use got 9+ rolls)

Does this seem like appropiate in any way? I dont think so.

 

And its not ok that you have to buy a booster to be somewhat efficient...but even the 1 guy with a booster didnt even have enough kuva for 2 rolls after 24 minutes.

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Mudfam:

And yeah, the kuva rewards are extremely stingy considering how you can get endlessly trolled by RNG. The huge frustration this has given me made me stop playing almost entirely

Same here, ignoring kuva and riven rolling completly was the best thing i have done in Warframe so far 😛

[Walkampf]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb birdobash:

So what your saying is, warframe should have 0 sense of progression and you should feel like you are totally wasting your time playing this game and should quit

Not really. Warframe has a fine progression with the exception of some systems. The most prominent being Rivens/Kuva. Personally, i'd love to seen this outright removed. A system with this much potential to being a pure timewaster is just as bad as having a pub next to a meeting spot for anonymous alcoholics.

What i'm saying is, progression should not matter as long as the gameplay is fun. If a game is not fun anymore, then yes, people should uninstall and move on. I mean, what's the purpose of a game if you don't get fun out of it, but instead frustration when endless RNG is screwing your over and over? Take a casion. Gambling addiction is a very real illness. People suffering from this are forced to come back because they are addicted, not because they consider it fun to loose an uncontrolled amount of money and time and still loose. A healthy person knows when to quit.

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Mudfam:

Oh please, this is such an incredibly petty, fail little attempt at belittling me and by extension what I said.

I'm not attempting to belittle you, I legitimaitly feel sorry for you. 

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Mudfam:

Every game needs goals. In Warframe that is farming something.

If farming WHOULD be the goal of Warframe, then why decrease the time you need to finish farming by increasing Kuva? Your goal isn't the act of farming, it's getting the biggest possible numbers.

This is basically like a chain-smoker answering "Why do you smoke?" with "Because cigaretts tast good."... yeah... no... inhaling burned plants is hardly something considered a treat. 

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Mudfam:

Every game needs goals.

Minecraft, Garries Mod and Goat simulator disagree. None of those games have set goals to "win".

[Mudfam]

19 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Blah Blah Blah

Ooooh, burn! Of course you are. You think you're being clever, do you?

Being deliberately stubborn and missing the point isn't helping your case. It just makes you seem fantastically dense and childish. Let alone your sad attempts at personal attacks. 

Maybe for you just nuking super weak enemies is such fun that it really is all you need. This is not the case for the vast majority of Warframe's players. Most people do missions for the rewards, for affinity, for credits etc. Working towards whatever their current goal is. We want an incentive, even if it just an excuse. The moment there's nothing new to farm, the Warframe player base is immediately decimated. See player statistics, this is not a matter of opinion.

An incentive to do something more challenging, to see what you can do, to play cooperatively, to play with friends, to devise strategies and builds, is completely missing from today's Warframe. The last time we had this was with tower keys and, even though they've been gone for years, people are still today complaining about having lost that dynamic, constantly.

Worthwhile scaling rewards would certainly help, but the game's base difficulty is so completely out of whack with current player power levels that it's not enough. Enemy scaling has always been a mess, but with where the first inkling of challenge appears on that exponential curve now, it's beyond broken. 

DE are chipping away at these problems, but I really think they need to take a hard look at how things designed 5 years ago haven't aged well with how much the game has changed.

[Walkampf]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Mudfam:

This is not the case for the vast majority of Warframe's players. Most people do missions for the rewards, for affinity, for credits etc

*sigh* So you asked the majority of several thousand players yourself, what they are playing the game for? No you didn't. There were even some you openly said, they stopped caring about Rivens and Kuva in this threat. Your personal opinion is not the majority of people.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Mudfam:

An incentive to do something more challenging, to see what you can do, to play cooperatively, to play with friends, to devise strategies and builds, is completely missing from today's Warframe. The last time we had this was with tower keys and, even though they've been gone for years, people are still today complaining about having lost that dynamic, constantly.

The option is still there. Endless mission still exist. People what challenges for the challeges sake. If you need additional payoff after the initial challenge, then you are not in for mthe challenge your are in for the reward. This is the very same reasoning as a chainsmoker who is in for the "delicious taste"

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Mudfam:

but the game's base difficulty is so completely out of whack with current player power levels that it's not enough.

Well, i agree on this to some degree. However, Warframes difficulty curve is not the topic at had, it's the rewards for endless missions.

[True_Naeblis]

Sadly despite massive feedback before and after release with lots of detail as to what would make it a worthwhile system DE has ignored all input that features any changes to what they've implemented. As with the UI fixes they've just done whatever they've wanted to do with little consideration for player input.

[Mudfam]

On 2018-09-02 at 4:40 PM, Walkampf said:

*sigh* So you asked the majority of several thousand players yourself, what they are playing the game for? No you didn't. There were even some you openly said, they stopped caring about Rivens and Kuva in this threat. Your personal opinion is not the majority of people.

In 4+ years of being a social player, active in the community, in a large active clan, part of large discord communities, on youtube etc. I've seen rewards discussed literally hundreds of times by hundreds of people, and you're literally the first I've ever encountered who claims not to care (and yeah, I don't even believe you, it's an absurd claim). Regardless, you conveniently "missed" the part where I said "see player statistics". When there's nothing new to farm, people stop playing - fact.

 

On 2018-09-02 at 4:40 PM, Walkampf said:

The option is still there. Endless mission still exist. People what challenges for the challeges sake. If you need additional payoff after the initial challenge, then you are not in for mthe challenge your are in for the reward. This is the very same reasoning as a chainsmoker who is in for the "delicious taste"

 

I myself have done 8 hour endless runs, but finding players that want to go for more than 20, max 40 minutes is near impossible these days, and enemies don't start to pose any challenge until at least 1 hour in. It can be a lot of fun, but it's also an effort, and It's completely pointless, why would anyone do it? Back in the days when there was some point to it it was standard, anyone who wasn't a newbie did long survival runs. There was value in perfoming well, in playing as a team, in having good buids etc.

What with the bizarre nonsensical smoking analogy? I don't get it. You're just randomly comparing I don't know what to smoking because of the bad connotations? Weak.

 

On 2018-09-02 at 4:40 PM, Walkampf said:

Well, i agree on this to some degree. However, Warframes difficulty curve is not the topic at had, it's the rewards for endless missions.

Not really, the two things are tightly linked. Warframe in its current state strongly encourages the path of least resistance, the laziest way to get something. The flat (lack of) difficulty and reward system means there is no risk vs reward and no incentive for challenging content or self improvement. Improving in this game just makes the content even more trivial, it doesn't lead anywhere, it works against your experience rather than for it.

[Nirrel]

On 2018-09-02 at 4:40 PM, Walkampf said:

*sigh* So you asked the majority of several thousand players yourself, what they are playing the game for? No you didn't. There were even some you openly said, they stopped caring about Rivens and Kuva in this threat. Your personal opinion is not the majority of people.

lol... he doesn't need to ask...as he already stated, and you conveniently did not quote just to be able to *sigh* and trying to be the smart one, it's enough to see player statistics how the active playerbase fluctuate when there is no new content to farm for. "Vast majority" of ppl stop playing until the next update comes out because the gameplay alone wont keep them around....that is raw data

 

On 2018-09-02 at 4:40 PM, Walkampf said:

The option is still there. Endless mission still exist. People what challenges for the challeges sake. If you need additional payoff after the initial challenge, then you are not in for mthe challenge your are in for the reward. This is the very same reasoning as a chainsmoker who is in for the "delicious taste"

No the option isn't there because there are no worthwhile rewards to push them. That was the point of the thread. Nobody ever stated that DE took away endless missions, they just took away the reward incentive to play them and the vast majority of the playerbase stopped to play them for a fact. The percentage of ppl that goes for long survivals is super low. And again misqouting and completely misinterpreting a pharagraph just to be able to say things that nobody ever said in the first place doesn't help either to have a constructive discussion.It wasn't stated that ppl were doing endless just for the challange. On the contrary. Ppl is asking for more challenging content with better rewards. That "with" conveniently always gets omitted just to be able to attack the post and dismiss it with the usual : you do not want challenging content, you just want better rewards. Which is completely missing the point btw.

 

[Walkampf]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Mudfam:

In 4+ years of being a social player, active in the community, in a large active clan, part of large discord communities, on youtube etc. I've seen rewards discussed literally hundreds of times by hundreds of people,

Funny, how everbody on the internet is always an expert on the topic at hand. Ofcourse of believe you, when you say that you are basically the cornerstone of Warframes community. Just as i will believe the next guy, that he owns 2 businesses, and the next guy you has a masters degree in computer science and so on.

It's always surprising how much time successfull people have a their hands to play 8 hour survival runs. Well, who needs sleep anyway?

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Mudfam:

I myself have done 8 hour endless runs, but finding players that want to go for more than 20, max 40 minutes is near impossible these days,

It's almost like the majority of people just don't enjoy them enough to play 8 hours a day, when they are not forced to do so by a system that basically forces them into doing so, by offering rewards for putting up with something they actually don't like.

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Mudfam:

Warframe in its current state strongly encourages the path of least resistance, the laziest way to get something.

This problem is not a warframe exlusive problem. It's like this in every game that features bars that you can fill. And that problem is not fixed by changing the bars so they fill slightly faster.

[DreisterDino]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

It's like this in every game that features bars that you can fill. And that problem is not fixed by changing the bars so they fill slightly faster.

Well, but kuva isnt a "bar that you can fill"... like OP said, its a ressource you always need if you are into Rivens.

Its not even the case that the people asking for this simply want more Kuva. They want better results combined with a challenge.

Because right now, farming kuva is the most tedious thing you can do in Warframe because unlike anything else you can farm in Warframe, you can end up with absolutly nothing after putting in huge amounts of time. So what people are asking for in threads like this is that the process of faming on the one hand can feel like an accomplishement on its own when you did well and that you have to invest a little less time for the same results on the other hand.

 

Again, the very tedious grind combined with the very little results is the thing that makes people hate this part of the game.

Its not only the grind or only the RNG behind the Rivens, its always both.

[Walkampf]

 

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Walkampf

[Walkampf]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb DreisterDino:

Its not even the case that the people asking for this simply want more Kuva. They want better results combined with a challenge.

It literally is!

The threat is CALLED

"Kuva survival should have some sort of scaling rewards"

Am 30.8.2018 um 07:56 schrieb birdobash:

Why do I think kuva survival should have scaled kuva rewards? Simply because the kuva rewarded from survival and also siphon and flood is actually really minuscule compared to the cost of rerolling a riven, this makes farming kuva to roll rivens a real pain in the ass.

It the second paragraph. Nothing about difficulty, yet again.

Get real, the excuse for difficulty is only there so they can justify the increased rewards somehow and then cheese the game mechanics anyway in oder to senseless grind for hours up on hours.

 

[DreisterDino]

Am 30.8.2018 um 07:56 schrieb birdobash:

Making the rewards scale would also give a reason for veteran players(which I am not) to test out and flex their minmaxed builds and team compositions to actually grind the 1 resource that a vet would actually still need, kuva, RNGesus's fuel and lifeblood.

This would also give new or uprising players a reason to push for more power and get stronger for more of that sweet sweet buttery loot.

And this is the part about the challenge and difficulty, also in the first post of this thread.

Everyone knows that lvl of the enemies goes up the longer you are in a mission.

If you ask for scaling rewards that implies that you go longer in a mission > fighter tougher enemies > play the game on a higher difficulty.

Edited September 4, 2018 by DreisterDino

[Walkampf]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DreisterDino:

Everyone knows that lvl of the enemies goes up the longer you are in a mission.

Not if you cheese the mission, which was the most common back when people exploited scaling rewards with Void Keys.

This mechanic encourages unintended gameplay. The difficulty is secondary.

As I already said,

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Walkampf:

Get real, the excuse for difficulty is only there so they can justify the increased rewards somehow and then cheese the game mechanics anyway in oder to senseless grind for hours up on hours.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Walkampf

[DreisterDino]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Walkampf:

Not if you cheese the mission, which was the most common back when people exploited scaling rewards with Void Keys.

This mechanic encourages unintended gameplay. The difficulty is secondary.

As I already said,

What? So you can cheese in a way that the lvl stops going up?

We are not talking about Void Keys here.

Unintended gameplay?

 

To use your words: Why is it bad and unintended gameplay if you "cheese yourself" through high lvl enemies?

Wouldnt it be just as bad to cheese yourself through low lvl enemies like it is now?

 

If your point is that no matter what, all Warframe players will always "cheese" themselves through any harder content that might be implemented, we can stop talking.

And we can also remove all enemies that are higher then lvl1. Sortie Mission 1 = lvl 1 ; Sortie Mission 2 = lvl 1 Sortie Mission 3 = lvl 1

Because why raise the lvl of enemies at all if all Players are always cheesing anyway right?

 

Edit: Btw, can you please define your use of the word "cheesing" so we all know what we are talking about?

Because from my understanding i would assume that what you mean is that cheesing is something like using Limbo to defend the excavators... using Nekros to get more Lifesupport also could count as cheesing, using a Saryn to kill enemies can be cheesing, using a strong melee with a riven to kill enemies can be cheesing and so on. But you know what, all players are always cheesing in Warframe then because you always do stuff like this in this game.

So "Get real" and dont act like the cheesing only starts when there are scaling rewards on a KuvaSurival.

Edited September 4, 2018 by DreisterDino

[Mudfam]

On 2018-09-04 at 12:38 PM, Walkampf said:

More blah

Lol, you literally just did it again. You ignored my point about player statistics and went off on some weird whiny tangent instead. Perhaps if you had an actual point to make you wouldn't have so much trouble at least staying on topic.

This kind of behaviour is hilariously ironic. People who "defend" the game by just attacking anyone who makes valid constructive criticism, hindering discussion that is beneficial to the game and creating a toxic, confrontational environment.

I'm trying to discuss the game here, stop trying to make it about me already. It's tiresome. Stop taking what I say out of context and ignoring the rest so you can nitpick based on false premise. How are you not capable of even slightly meaningful discussion? This is so silly.

 

On 2018-09-04 at 12:38 PM, Walkampf said:

This problem is not a warframe exlusive problem. It's like this in every game that features bars that you can fill. And that problem is not fixed by changing the bars so they fill slightly faster.

Stop trying to make this about something it's not. I don't even care about kuva, I have tonnes of it, I don't use it, I haven't really played Warframe in months. I posted here because I strongly objected to your response to the OP. The game needs more challenging content to keep me (and everyone I've played with and talked to) interested, and there needs to be a point to it too. Claiming that doing level 25 missions ad infinitum without even a reason is good enough is utterly idiotic and I can't leave it uncontested. The content is so incredibly trivial that it makes virtually all the game mechanics and gameplay features completely redundant, it's that bad.

I guess you'll just keep claiming there is no problem here, and attacking everyone who says there is. Personally I can't understand this behaviour at all, I don't see why you wouldn't invest your energy into helping determine what would make players more invested in the game. If you have a legitimate issue with something, a reason to address it, that's actually great. Maybe we can understand it and find a solution. DE does actually listen to its community, and proper discussion is how the community can develop useful suggestions. But I haven't heard any of that, just this completely random passive aggressive crap.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Mudfam

[Walkampf]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Mudfam:

You ignored my point about player statistics

What statistics? All you do is making claims. You have yet to back up anything.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Mudfam:

The game needs more challenging content to keep me (and everyone I've played with and talked to) interested

Increasing Kuva values does fix a faulty difficulty system.

And endurance runs are not fun and were only popular for the single reason of being the most effective way of grinding. Thus there is a clear decline in players engaging in that kind of content, now that this single reason for playing it is gone. It is a simple matter of cause and consequence.

And on the cotrary to you i will even give you a source to back this claim up:

Am 4.9.2018 um 11:49 schrieb Mudfam:

I myself have done 8 hour endless runs, but finding players that want to go for more than 20, max 40 minutes is near impossible these days,

And this guy HAS to know what he's talking about. I'm told he is super duper involved in the whole Warfreame community.

[Nirrel]

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

And endurance runs are not fun and were only popular for the single reason of being the most effective way of grinding.

Back that up pls.: " All you do is making claims". 

Most efficient way to grind primes today is repeating capture and exterminate fissures until they are avaible as quickly as possible nuking everything in their way. Do you really think that players are doing it for fun? No, they are doing it to farm/grind as efficiently possible. It is not a unique behavior to endurance runs, that's just how most ppl plays warframe nowadays : farm/grind as efficiently possible .

You don't like it we understood, but saying that something isn't fun just because you do not like it isn't a great argument. But that's not the point either. The point is that higher level should give you more. That's just fair. If it doesn't than you wont do it even if it's more "fun".

On a breif note, you can see countless of videos of endurance runs people having fun, but repeting short, tediouse supereasy missions you cannot unless it's a funny demonstration how tedious the grind is in warframe.

 

On 2018-09-04 at 1:55 PM, Walkampf said:

 

"Kuva survival should have some sort of scaling rewards"

 

 

Yup and it should objectively. It's really elementary to see why as well.

You see Kuva survival is the only mission in the game right now in wich going further and play higher difficulty not only doesn't reward you but it's counterproductive. Nekros or not at some point you will have to use a tower for lifesupport thus loosing out on the only thing that you are playing it for just because of RNG drops of lifesupport. So it's perfectly legitimate to ask for scaling the quantity of kuva up and than cap it as the difficulty goes up if for anything else but for fairness.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Nirrel

[Mudfam]

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

What statistics? All you do is making claims. You have yet to back up anything.

Increasing Kuva values does fix a faulty difficulty system.

And endurance runs are not fun and were only popular for the single reason of being the most effective way of grinding. Thus there is a clear decline in players engaging in that kind of content, now that this single reason for playing it is gone. It is a simple matter of cause and consequence.

And on the cotrary to you i will even give you a source to back this claim up:

And this guy HAS to know what he's talking about. I'm told he is super duper involved in the whole Warfreame community.

Alright, I'm done talking to you. You're obviously completely incapable of understanding anything you read and have no interest in actual discussion. I don't know how many posts this is now, and not once have you responded to a point I made, you're literally arguing with your own imagination, not me. Have fun.

[Walkampf]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Nirrel:

Most efficient way to grind primes today is repeating capture and exterminate fissures until they are avaible as quickly as possible nuking everything in their way. Do you really think that players are doing it for fun? No, they are doing it to farm/grind as efficiently possible. It is not a unique behavior to endurance runs, that's just how most ppl plays warframe nowadays : farm/grind as efficiently possible . 

I completly agree. However, the excuse "because somebody else is doing it,too" has never been valid in any circumstance.

As I said earlier, increasing doesn't solve the difficulty issue thus it's not solution to the underlying problem. In fact, quite the opposite is the case and for several reasons.

1. More Kuva means more riven rolls which creates more chances for god-tier rivens. This significantly increases the players firepower which in turn drasically reduces the difficulty, which is the exact problem, why the "endgame" is boring to begin with.

2. It effectively puts casual players at a disadvantage, since they won't be able to make use of the increased Kuva-rate since they can not / want not commit to such a tedious task. (This, by the way, is the official reason from DE why they DECIDED to not got this route.) This system basically leaves casuals behind and increases the powergap between them and high-end players which will make future balancing even harder if DE wants to be inclusive of both factions.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nirrel:

You don't like it we understood, but saying that something isn't fun just because you do not like it isn't a great argument.

It's a very good argument. And the fact that hardly anyone is still doing endurence runs anymore prooves that I am right.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nirrel:

On a breif note, you can see countless of videos of endurance runs people having fun,

You are right again. Those videos exist and those people legitimatly enjoy the gameplay. The rewards for those people are completly secondary, which is why those videos as still being created despite non-scaling loot.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nirrel:

So it's perfectly legitimate to ask for scaling the quantity of kuva up and than cap it as the difficulty goes up if for anything else but for fairness.

How is this fair?

It is fair if a player that investes X Minutes gets Y Kuva and a person who invests twice the time gets twice the reward. Yes, endless missions get harder, however, you are just as free as everyone else to leave the mission and reset the difficulty.

Scaling rewards put players with less time and / or equipment at a disadvantage. It's basically the same as in social politics in many 1st world countries, where the rich just get even richer and the poor get left behind.