Warframe- Taking Note Between Old School, And Current Gen

[Arlayn]

I get this feeling... the way everything has been worked into the game it may or may not be possible for the game to be hard... Allow me to explain...

 

Along time ago OLD GAMES were HARD!!! So hard they drove people up walls, out the window, and then chucked the game system into a volcano in hopes the Gods of the Volcano would help them beat the game.

 

Why were old games hard? lack of function. Good example Metroid, and Metroid Zero Mission. Zero mission was a remake of the first one. If I remember correctly the first one was hard as hell. I actually have never beaten the first one(having diagonal shooting would've saved my life). However due to Zero mission being new, with all the new functions, easier movement, faster reaction time better hitbox the game became EASIER!!! it was so easy it left me in shock when I beat the whole game in less then a month. Even Mother brain was pretty lame versus better functionality.

 

Now what does Warframe have? An increase in functionality. Look around. Every time a new warframe comes out a new way the game functions is born with them. Loki's switch teleport with decoy, Excal's super jump, Volt's speed, Vauban's bounce, Nova's Portal, Wall running, Zip lines. Lets not forget weapons, and the offensive abilities. Those continue to increase we have weapons from missile launchers, gas bombs, acid pistols, dart guns, bow and arrows, burst guns, machine guns, rifles, snipers, shurikens, kunai. We have abilities that burn places up, freeze enemies, outright stop enemies, cause enemies to blow up, etc...

 

Games were hard in the past because we had less functionality while the enemies could do more then us things that we have never even seen before. Now we have Warframe. We can do everything the enemies can do and then some. Our functionality far surpasses the difficulty of the game by an insane amount. Its like giving Mario a gun. Look around... and notice that your OP God like Warframe, with the best weapons, and mods in the game actually does have the better functionality. You can troll everyone in the game like it was child's play... Look at the hardcore players whining about the game being easy. Its easy because our functionality is through the roof. Soon we will have a hook shot to fly around the room(who needs zipline then). Who knows what Necro Frame will have...

 

If only there was a way for DE to increase enemy functionality to give them unique functions, and actions... Only Vor has been seen to do such a feat since he was updated with unusual functionality. The Grineer can stick to walls which is a good thing when it comes to enemy functionality but its done in a silly fashion. I still feel the enemies need a massive update or a rehaul of their entire functionality to give them better functions something that makes them feel better then the Tenno so there is more urgency. As it is sneaking is like a joke. Sure people have pulled it off, but really? You couldn't have just ran through the whole room slicing people in two with excal, disarming everyone, crushing everyone with Mag? Blowing people up with Nova, ignoring armor with Boltor, constant damage with Acrid, explosions with Ogris? Why sneak? Our functionality is so God like with the right gear we might as well be able to teleport like Goku around the room... Oh wait we can... Well then we might as well have Goku's instant teleportation move to just get to the objective, and to the end.

 

Grineer should be able to slide, roll, stick to walls, leap and shoot, blind shot around corners, take proper cover, Scale walls, turn invisible, Pop out of walls, Blast open doors in attempts to crush you as they pour in, surprise attacks from random directions.

 

Infested should definitely be able to turn invisible, scale walls, leap from wall to wall, throw spines, dig holes underground and ambush, fall from ceilings, fly, cling to your body, Swoop down from ceiling and go back to the ceiling again.

 

Corpus should be able to... Well hell how about for starters in open areas have a big friggin attack ship fly over and try to shoot at you. Have bombers fly over and drop payloads on you, have giant robots looking into openings in the walls and then start shooting inside, have Hyena packs walking around Lotus did say they hunt Tenno in packs why have I never seen a pack of Hyenas come after me(those guys can fit on walk ways, and more less through a door)? They should have assassin droids that turn invisible and sneak up on you. They should have Corpus warriors trained in martial arts leaping around with dual Prova daggers that run around really fast and when you try to shoot, or hit them with melee they do crazy cartwheel rolls really fast around the area similar to the Clone trooper assassin from Star Wars Episode III the game. Instead of ships randomly haphazardly landing into the hangar have an attack giant osprey fly in and start shooting down on you, as it releases Osprey Mines, and Osprey leechers. Corpus could go on, and on ever since the Fusion Moa became possible...

 

Tell me since this is general discussion... What do you guys think? Do you think the game is easy late in the game because our functionality far surpasses the game parameters? Or do you think our mass functionality has noting to do with enemies who go full retard being easy?

Edited September 1, 2013 by Arlayn

[basilioss]

I think the enemy AI needs to be improved so they don't rush into our faces. -_-

[Aure7]

I think the enemy AI needs to be improved so they don't rush into our faces. -_-

and learn new formations besides formation bravo...

[Arlayn]

and learn new formations besides formation bravo...

Formation Bravo- Split up and run around in circles while going Full Retard...

[Engelheim]

Would be cool if Grineer had special tactics depending on the type of unit they have. Here's a couple of examples:

 

Shield Grineer will be the in the front line whilst the other, more vulnerable Grineer duck behind them.

Scorpions use group tactics to strafe and ambush players and then gang up on Tenno that have been caught by the rope.

Grineer Ballistas will try to maintain distance and will always run away when players get too close.

[Arlayn]

Would be cool if Grineer had special tactics depending on the type of unit they have. Here's a couple of examples:

 

Shield Grineer will be the in the front line whilst the other, more vulnerable Grineer duck behind them.

Scorpions use group tactics to strafe and ambush players and then gang up on Tenno that have been caught by the rope.

Grineer Ballistas will try to maintain distance and will always run away when players get too close.

Maybe Grineer should spawn as pre-made squad sets that actually function together with a set AI, and if any one of them die they make up for the lost one with a new tactic, if there is one left... well they could always kamikaze...

[lonelydrone]

I can only say one thing.

 

TRUE TRUE TRUE and TRUE.

 

 

Grineer hellions is a first step IMO, since they can fly and shoot missiles, and have high movility.

 

Infested should be more like Dead Space's necromorphes (even the gigantic ones) (not saying "copy", but "learn from")

 

Corpus should have (i agree), packs of hyenas, if nos ships at least turrets shooting at you (plasma or laser turrets, with it´s bullet version for grineer). ninja like drones (tennos copies).

 

anyways, for a game to be good, the good guys (US) need to be weaker than the enemy. and we are currently way way way stronger than they are.

[Dreykan]

Why DE doesn't look at post like this?

 

I couldn't agree more.

+1

[Atlas_Smirked]

-dual Prova daggers-

Umm...

 

I see nothing pointy nor sharp about that to make a dagger.

 

 

Anyway I like the ideas. Make enemies more unique to make them challenging. In this I recommend looking to Mass Effect 3. That game uses a collection of specialized enemies rather than copy-pasted stuff.

[Noabettiet]

Maybe what we need is not "everything harder", but a different difficulty scaling. Instead of just improving their Health and Power, they also get smarter.

[Zeus154]

Umm...

 

I see nothing pointy nor sharp about that to make a dagger.

 

 

Anyway I like the ideas. Make enemies more unique to make them challenging. In this I recommend looking to Mass Effect 3. That game uses a collection of specialized enemies rather than copy-pasted stuff.

 

The AI in that game is pretty smart. They flank, take cover, lure and even FORCE you out of cover. Though they kind of made it a bit artificially difficult since stun-lock was there. That and some enemies *cough*Collectors*cough* can wreck you in mere seconds. The game is still great though. Played it a ton. DE could pick up on multiple designs for enemies.

[SirSlayer]

tl dr,

 

old games were hard so the content would "last longer" and people won't finish the game as fast.

As memory was expensive :P

[-Narauko-]

Would be cool if Grineer had special tactics depending on the type of unit they have. Here's a couple of examples:

 

Shield Grineer will be the in the front line whilst the other, more vulnerable Grineer duck behind them.

Scorpions use group tactics to strafe and ambush players and then gang up on Tenno that have been caught by the rope.

Grineer Ballistas will try to maintain distance and will always run away when players get too close.

Ive seen the Shield Grineer do this but in such small numbers and probably by coicidence, the shield grineer will stand there with another grineer behind but they don't advance just stand there. 2 seconds later and the stupid shield drops his shield to fire his pistol or w/e and you get a lovely oppotunity for double kill with bow.

 

Infested 'Charger' not so much a charge as a steady run. Make them frickn fast already. I shouldn't be able to just say 'oh chargers time to kite the mass horde of 40+ infested'. If they were given speed their 'charge' might have some bloody venom. Make em like Alien, wall crawling/ceiling, super fast atm their just a joke and very little in the way of testing my reaction times.

 

OP: Correct on all accounts, the enemys in this game need to move away from horde mechanics to lethal armys of death and despair.

 

I want to have to get a squad for late game not just go 'oh noones playing it ill just rush solo this one'.

 

P.S. Shoulda put this in Gameplay Feedback.

Edited September 2, 2013 by narauk1

[Erusa]

Shield Grineer will be the in the front line whilst the other, more vulnerable Grineer duck behind them.

The usual Grineer (I forgot what they're called, you know, green, maskless, comes in thousands) actually use the Grineer Lancer as a shield...If they get close enough to it. Then the Lancer will slowly advance forward while the Grineer(/s) behind it will keep firing at you...

Sadly with the Ragdoll effects of Paris Prime......And their own shield somewhat blocking the lower half of their bullets...And for god knows what reason why a Grineer Scorcher is using the Grineer Lancer's cover is beyond me...It actually looks a little more...Useless than it is. :c

However the activation of this AI is usually when a Lancer and the Grunt/s gets within ~1m of each other and the Grunt (sorry guys, I really can't remember you anymore q.q) isn't moving toward you to hit you with the hind of their Hind. But I guess that's easier to tweak now (AI Activation range of 3m should suffice? :/ )

And about the original topic...It's because back then computer chips were pretty limited...it was already amazing to see an Italian Plumber made by the Japanese to run through a stage, dodging chasms, firing bouncy fireballs, kicking turtles...And fight a gigantic ho..spiky turtle just to find out the Princess is in another castle....AI tends to be a pretty exhaustive process on a CPU though...considering the game's Networking style.........I think I'd rather have them fix that before adding more AI. Soon enough even mid-end System Units can crash with Warframe if the AI is too complex (and the code is still using only one CPU Core. :I ) and more data might be needed to be transmitted over the network...ugh. *-*

[IIPREDATORII]

Yes on all of the OP's comments. I hope DE reads this.

The AI just need to be smarter for beginners.

Edited September 2, 2013 by IIPREDATORII

[Phoenix86]

AI needs more mobility and quick actions

[neKroMancer]

Enemy design in Warframe seems like an afterthought compared to Warframes themselves.

 

I think DE have to make each faction more diverse in term of tactic. I highly doubt that the AI will be more lethal in later update through behavior improvement alone. They need countermeasures against the Tenno. What we can do, they must be able to undo.

 

- Stealth frames (which are virtually all frames with Shade) should be countered with detector unit (an excellent job for the Grineer flying speaker).

- Status effect, M.prime/Energy vampire could be removed (Healing ancient).

- Damage power could be made null (a new anti-power unit, setup an anti-power pylon to protect the area from 4spam).

- Setup a potable cover (shield lancer could be made lighter and able to deploy temporary cover out of thin air).

- Range unit for Infest to counter Vauban.

- Stealth unit/Camouflaged unit.

- Trapper unit/Engineer that setup traps and turrets.

 

Generally, I agree with the OP that enemy requires a redesign to match our powers. However, factions should be remade in a particular fashion to keep it unique and create a more diverse gameplay.

 

One may see this as a nerf though, undoubtly. 

[SlyBoots]

ye, problem is whatever capabilities or functionality our enemies get - they will still be sitting ducks in bastille or a puddle of goo from miasma. (infested should definitely get fast units that can run on ceilings though.) i guess what would work were enemies that'd outright counter our abilities: flying/hovering enemies not effected by bastille, damage and crowd control/debuff immunities, maybe timed or granted by some special enemy.

 

think diablo 2 and the like.

 

the problem that arises then though, is that a class in diablo 2 had a much wider arsenal at its disposal than just 4 skills of a warframe - so it actually did work out if certain skills where useless against certain enemies. tryin to imagine a mode for warframe that would make immunities not a completely frustrating thing it would necessitate a much better lobby system, where people are encouraged to tune their equipment to get a balanced party. but that wouldn't be enough because it would lock people without fitting frames out of this mode. so a second necessary step would be to add some skills to choose from per frame and/or assign damage, crowd control and debuff types that can be changed/modded otherwise. with damage types it's pretty obvious as abilites already have damage types like weapons, some customizability per frame would be needed though and for crowd control/debuff types i would think stuff like visual, mental, physical, sonic, etc.

 

so depending on enemy type a skill could be crowd control or damage dealing or useless (and not crowd control as well as damage dealing like it is now). then again all the fuzz to gather up a balanced party would probably feel a bit wasted on the current mission objectives. and changing skills and/or damage, crowd control/debuff types around runs directly counter to each frame having a strict theme to it... soooo, i dunno.... pretty tricky situation to be in for the gameplay systems designers...

 

edit: what nekro said. :P

Edited September 2, 2013 by SlyBoots

[Jhakoon]

this definitely needs to be pushed.

+

[Silvershadow66]

Along time ago OLD GAMES were HARD!!! So hard they drove people up walls, out the window, and then chucked the game system into a volcano in hopes the Gods of the Volcano would help them beat the game.

 

A long time ago persistent MMO games were doing well if they had tens of thousands of players (all of whom paid monthly). Now a game that allows people to play for free needs hundreds of thousands of players. Hard games don't get 10 million active players these days.

 

And quite frankly I will never play a hard game again. I, like many of the people who have been playing over a decade now have other things that have a higher priority than gaming. Spending 3-4 hours solid doing a hard raid or grinding is just not an option any more (for me or any of my friends who play online). People want fun games that they can spend less than an hour playing and still get progress.

 

Look at the persistent popularity of shooter games where you can just jump in and play a few short matches and then do something else. Warframe is following that model because that is what players want.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Silvershadow66

[Dalu__Ka]

OP should be a consultant of DE.

[itsbigjon]

Yeah, pretty much agree with you OP.

 

Nerf bullet-sponge and absurd armor scaling. Improve AI functionality.

It's a no-brainer, ideally, that's the way to go.

 

I think the only problem is that it's more difficult to make it like that. Given DE's manpower, I just don't think it's possible.

Furthermore, EVEN IF they manage to do it;

 

1. Stakeholders won't be happy ("oMg GuYz, we're in the design council, DE should make all the stupid stuff that we suggest, BRING OUT A NEW FRAME!!!!")

2. "wtf, out of nowhere some invisible infested came up to me and killed me!? this game is broken!!!!!!!11!!!111@1212!!!!"

3. "hurr durr laaggggggg, wall-running infested are stuck there" or whatever.

4. "still not difficult enough." <-- these guys are bound to appear.

 

Anyways, in my opinion, the complexities and nuances that you are suggesting are quite ideal, but it might not be a good direction for Warframe. I think it can achieve greater things just with better optimisation, communication, bug fixes, etc.

 

Good single-player games have great functionality balances.

In the MMO landscape, I think the complexities will be badly received, especially with co-op. If Warframe was a true tactical co-op shooter, communication and pace is key. One game which really hit the spot for me in the tactical shooter genre was Star Wars - Republic Commando.

 

 

However, the current pace of the game (especially with all the zorencopter nonsense) is way too fast for any sort of strategic thinking, which is why I think they opted instead to dumb it down and make it an explosion-fest (think nova) which empowers the players.

 

TLDR: people want LESS QQ, MORE PEWPEW.

[Hitomo]

and learn new formations besides formation bravo...

 

 

isnt it attack formtaion Mako ? ... sounds cooler

[Erusa]

3. "hurr durr laaggggggg, wall-running infested are stuck there" or whatever.

 

aaaaaaaand you just reminded me how some Grineer would actually use the zipline and get stuck trying.

Sometimes I pity them. :c

[itsbigjon]

aaaaaaaand you just reminded me how some Grineer would actually use the zipline and get stuck trying.

Sometimes I pity them. :c

 

Yes! perfect example of what I'm talking about.

In theory, it sounds like: yay, the Grineer can now use ziplines, more functionality! The Grineer are getting creative!

In game, it looks like: .... well, you know what it looks like.

 

As much as I'd like to see the OP's idea of bombing-strafe runs from the corpus fleet, if DE can't execute zipline animations properly, I have little hope for that feature.