Vauban 9.8: Feedback Thread

[Hermantis]

I doubt I'll get a response to this, or even that the developers will read it directly, but I wanted to respond to Scott's comments here.

 

Bastille required that the enemies walk directly into the skill, and otherwise did not function at all. There is no AI reaction to it, and further the AI is currently programmed to go after the objective to the extent that it will walk up the stairs nearby, rather than shooting at it from afar. Changing Bastille is not going to alter this. If a level has choke points, even Vortex will cover them acceptably, and for that matter, so will enough other CC. Bastille was convenient because it was straight forward, and had no cost in terms of channeling. With the changes you've made here, you've harmed its use as an, "O'S#&$" button, and reduced the overall pallette of options available to players without directly impacting the problems that created this situation in the first place. Altering abilities is not going to stop players from achieving high defense waves, unless you severely reduce all abilities that address large numbers of enemies, nor for that matter should you be concerned with stopping high level play. However, if you want to increase challenge, at the end of the day it can only be done by altering how the game presents a challenge.

I agree here. There is little functional difference between "halting everything" and "killing everything", except that, with Bastille, enemies keep running into the field to get caught and die - which isn't a power issue, but an AI issue. A better, though likely more difficult solution is to change the AI so that enemies won't just go running into a Bastille field. Perhaps they flank, perhaps they go into cover and start sniping through the field, perhaps normally close combat units (most infested) start spitting horrible things at you from outside the field. A field that stops movement in a limited area shouldn't be OP.

 

If the power must be changed, I side with those who have argued it should have target preference - either smaller or bigger enemies is fine, so long as we know what we're catching (obviously, I would prefer the giant, horrible things get caught first, but that's a personal bias against giant, horrible things).

[Zakalwe]

12 enemies is absolutely fine.

 

You kill one, another takes its place.

 

There's really no difference.

[CaptainohCaptain]

To off with these whining, I demand changes to running speed (0,9), armor to 10 and 4d polarities with overriding old ones.

[Diruuo]

As a person who's spent 4 forma on his Vauban I can say that I'm just downright disappointed... 

 

Why would I pick my maxed out Vauban if I can go in with a Nyx and achieve more for the same energy cost? Why is Nova still allowed to one-shot t3 void mobs with antimatter drop and clear out entire rooms with the press of a button? How is that not OP but a Vauban keeping level 100 enemies in the air is. 

 

And here I was planning on upgrading my Founders Tier... So much time wasted on this and you just killed the frame because people that don't own Vauban cried OP. 

 

You said you're not breaking builds, you said you're not massively nerfing anything and instead will buff weaker things, you said you're going to be careful with Warframe changes, and here we are, you murdering a frame. Talk about broken promises. You lost your support here. Yes, I know, a drop in the ocean, but them drops helped you build up a good game. I've been into this game ever since the early times of Closed Beta, and I've never been this disappointed. You just broke a frame that wasn't broken. Volt's still dreadful in everything but speed running, Ember is still not the face melter she's supposed to be, Banshee just ...disappeared because Nova appeared. All these frames in dreadful conditions and you kill Vauban. 

 

Either overhaul him (at least god damn make Focus apply on Vortex and give us some bloody helmets that don't hinder us[removing shields on one of the lowest shield frames in the game])... Or just revert the change. Target limit is $&*&*#(%&. Yesterday I found out world on fire has a target limit... What gives? Isn't Ember supposed to be all about nuking? Why doesn't Nova have a target limit? Why doesn't Frost's Globe have a target limit? Why doesn't Nyx's Chaos have a target limit? Very few skills make sense for target limits, those mentioned (and Bastille) are not within those skills.

 

Disappointed and just sad. This change is pitiful, and you breaking that many promises is also, sadly, pitiful.  

 

A very disappointed customer.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Diruo

[Zakalwe]

Diruo, have you tried Vauban since the change?

The balance has done next to nothing to his effectiveness. 12 Enemies is fine. You hang 12, kill one and another takes its place. Repeat. 

 

It's not difficult, and it still works brilliantly.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Zakalwe

[TwinShadow]

12 enemies is absolutely fine.

 

You kill one, another takes its place.

 

There's really no difference.

I read earlier in the topic that this is not actually the case with the revised change. Once the cap was hit, it will not catch any more even if you kill one already in the field. Though I have not tested it myself, I have been less inclined to play as of late due to certain changes like these.

[Ad0rable]

I'd like to get on the bandwagon of whining about bastille.

 

Please bring back the old version. Who even asked for this change?

[Ad0rable]

Diruo, have you tried Vauban since the change?

The balance has done next to nothing to his effectiveness. 12 Enemies is fine. You hang 12, kill one and another takes its place. Repeat. 

 

It's not difficult, and it still works brilliantly.

 

That sounds wonderful vs level 10 enemies.

[Zakalwe]

That sounds wonderful vs level 10 enemies.

It's wonderful all the way up, especially if you know how to work as a team.

[EelPlus]

Bastille change is awesome.  It was a little too fail-safe before.  Vortex change is even more awesome :>

[Diruuo]

Diruo, have you tried Vauban since the change?

The balance has done next to nothing to his effectiveness. 12 Enemies is fine. You hang 12, kill one and another takes its place. Repeat. 

 

It's not difficult, and it still works brilliantly.

From literally the two matches that I played (it's 3 AM here, I should be asleep), once the cap is met, it doesn't seem to lift more folks. It also counts cameras and inactive turrets and has no target prioritization. 

 

I've been playing Vauban for so long and, Believe me when I say this, this breaks the frame. Target limit should be removed. Make it so that Stretch doesn't apply to it, make it even shorter duration (lol 56 second Snow Globe) or do something that make sense. Don't make it unusable in the few places where you'd actually want to/ need to use it. 

 

I'm mostly sad about DE breaking so many promises. And I'm just gonna boycott on the whole "upgrading founders tier" for now. Not sure what will make me support DE again... So much time and effort down the drain. Even after trying to maximize my Vauban he is still weak, dies easily, is entirely dependent on Bastille to survive, is slow, hell - the rocket floaty guys on Phobos insta-kill me through a maxed out redirection and a maxed out Vigor. INSTANT KILL BY LEVEL 40 ENEMIES ON A 4-FORMA MAXED OUT VAUBAN WITH MAX RANK REDIRECTION. How many people you think have maxed out 10 rank mods? 

 

Disappointed and sad as I said above. At least now I know not to listen to promises made by DE, they seem to be as hollow as a drum. 

Edited September 7, 2013 by Diruo

[drewbicus]

You just pointed out the problem. Infested can't shoot, so they all just rush the pod in defense missions. This power was basically the ONLY way to cope with Infested defense once the mobs start being challenging to kill. Other armies stop at gun range and take cover and such. Infested don't. Wait till you try the next high level infested defense and then see how bad this nerf was.

 

As far as I can tell they nerfed it to the point where high level infested defense is impossible.

 

And, irritatingly, they nerfed it without dropping the power cost to an equal degree. If they had done that so Bastille became more about placement and timing I could live with that - but this is just off-the-chart wrong.

 

I'm glad the frame got taken down a bit, but It doesn't affect much, never more than 10 enemies in a bastile usually unless its infested. Besides, you can always throw down more than one.

[Flannel_Platypus]

As a frequent teammate of a Vauban, this nerf is too drastic. I am fine with a cap on the number of mobs bastile can snag, 12 (as the maximum) is too low. 20 however would be a more reasonable number. 

[EetNotErn]

I, for one, am happy with this change. It makes Bastille useful but not mind numbingly boring and easy. And I like that Focus actually affects it, since it gives you more meaningful decisions to make when deciding on a build.

 

DE, please just check in game stats and testing instead of listening to the kneejerk reactions in this thread for actual useful input.

Edited September 7, 2013 by EetNotErn

[theammostore]

Is this OP status based on the point of view of DE...or the player's? Because this kinda makes me curious.

I thought it was OP and I always used Vauban for a while.

[Beaudrillard]

Ok, here is my feedback.  I will try to make it as constructive as possible as I usually don't complain about changes and nerfs publicly.  However, this is just getting silly.  When I started playing this game, I farmed Rhino, farmed the resources to craft Rhino and then crafted him.  On my list, he is still my most used warframe.  I played him pretty much cause I liked to stand in the middle of a group of 200 mobs and use my Fraggor to Babe Ruth grineers across a room.  This was how I had fun, I never really cared to play any of the other frames, even though I farmed all of them.  You nerfed him.  People said IS was too OP.  OK...

 

So I started to level every frame in the game to find one that I could like.  None of them let me have the fun of being able to stand untouched in a group of baddies and just beat the everloving crap out of them.  So I stopped playing for a few months.  Then update 8 and 9 came out.  2 new frames, Nova and Vauban.  So I farmed Nova, and used some founder's plat to get Vauban.  These became my 2 favorite go-to frames.  I can rip apart the fabric of time and space in a beautifully rediculous cornucopia of colorful devistation with Nova...that's pretty freaking fun.  Also, I can throw down an electric fence designed to keep the dinosaurs of Jurrasic Park at bay, stand in the center of it, and literally poke fun at the poor bastards caught in my trap while i stab, shoot, explode, arrow, or ridicule to death.  Pretty fun indeed.  But people say that Bastille is too OP...OK

 

What befuddles me about this constant talk of nerfs, OP, and balancing is starting to smack of being the same things that happened and still happens in Diablo 3 (enunciate as Di - ah - blow [emphasis on blow]).  I think people need to wake up about this type of game.  This is a co-op PVE game with no PVP.  Things are supposed to be OP, things don't need to be balanced.  Create new content, make things actually harder to do, instead of saying ___________ frame is overpowered.  This keeps people playing games.  This is not World of Warcraft, abilities do not need to be nerfed for balance. If I spend the time to find out a way to do 900k damage under the constraints of the system and am able to watch the world burn, why shouldn't I be able to?  If Bastille is too OP for someone, then that someone doesn't have to play Vauban.  Play Loki solo on a defense mission with infested for a challenge if that's what you want.  If _% of your community enjoy's holding every mob on a map in suspended animation for 4 hours on end, then let them get their jollies doing that instead of nerfing and ability in a game that has no need to be balanced.  If _% of your community really likes being able to be immune to all damage for a short duration, let them.  If someone thinks its OP, they can run the frame without bastille or without Iron Skin, or without Molecular Prime for a challenge. 

 

Basic point is, there are many ways to customize the game, many weapons to choose from.  No one is holding a real life weapon to anyone's head forcing them to use a certain weapon or ability.  There are no arena's, no PVP ladders, no reason that somone on Rhino being invincible, or someone on Vauban holding all enemies in the air causes anyone else to not be able to win at what they are doing.  I have soloed or 2 manned the whole game, and I rarely play in Online or with other groups of people unless I'm trying to flesh out some void drops when I don't have keys.  If I'm running with a Vaub, Frost and Nova and never get touched, I really could care less.  Its not like I'm trying to do PVP and getting chained cc'ed by a $&*&*#(%& mechanic and can't kill the other guy cause he's immune.  Its all about killing things in the most fun way possible.  Every nerf pigeon holes everyone to playing certain frames and using certain weapons to complete the games hardest challenges which I might add are pretty laughable in terms of difficulty as is. 

 

This game has no reason to be balanced.  I don't play games like this for balance.  I have to play with balance in the real world, ninja's in space with robot baddies and cybernetic baddies and zombie undead baddies aren't real.  I want to be OP, I don't want an ability to act more like it would in the real world or be balanced because it does its job too well.  This is was supposed to be a game about ninja's in space.  As it stands, it is turning into a game about guys who look like ninja's with a green ooze gun and 2 other never used weapons hanging off their backs putting bombs on every one in the room and making them pop with the green ooze gun.  You want nina's in space, have a persistant stealth on Loki and several other frames, that allows you to sneak anywhere you want unseen.  Make a mode where if you are seen you fail.  Make encounters harder.  Give a challenge that isn't a gimmick, nightmare modes with changing boss mechanics, and mobs with the ability to see through stealth, or plant unseen traps, instead of taking away all shields and energy while mobs with 200% accuracy shoot at you through cover.  Make the game encounters more tricky, more like you have to have a real strategy and then you can have every gun, and every frame be OP 

 

But for the love of all that is holy quit with the knee jerk nerfs to powers and guns that people really enjoy using just because it doesn't feel balanced in a PVE game that has no need for balancing.  I swear it seems game developers anymore think most people play games for realism and balance, and some gamers have started taking that attitude as well.  Games aren't real life, I want a bomb like the cross in Castlevania that melts every enemy on screen.  I want a glowing star in Super Mario Brothers that makes me invincible.  Its a game, I play real life all day long, I don't need real life in my escape.  I want Bastille and Iron Skin back the way they were.  Make the game harder, not the abilities and weapons weaker.

[spikeyhare]

I'm all for a limit on this but since the main use of it was infested I just think a system to have it pick on the big guys would be best. That would be helpful.

[Zakalwe]

From literally the two matches that I played (it's 3 AM here, I should be asleep), once the cap is met, it doesn't seem to lift more folks. It also counts cameras and inactive turrets and has no target prioritization. 

 

I've been playing Vauban for so long and, Believe me when I say this, this breaks the frame. Target limit should be removed. Make it so that Stretch doesn't apply to it, make it even shorter duration (lol 56 second Snow Globe) or do something that make sense. Don't make it unusable in the few places where you'd actually want to/ need to use it. 

 

I'm mostly sad about DE breaking so many promises. And I'm just gonna boycott on the whole "upgrading founders tier" for now. Not sure what will make me support DE again... So much time and effort down the drain. Even after trying to maximize my Vauban he is still weak, dies easily, is entirely dependent on Bastille to survive, is slow, hell - the rocket floaty guys on Phobos insta-kill me through a maxed out redirection and a maxed out Vigor. INSTANT KILL BY LEVEL 40 ENEMIES ON A 4-FORMA MAXED OUT VAUBAN WITH MAX RANK REDIRECTION. How many people you think have maxed out 10 rank mods? 

 

Disappointed and sad as I said above. At least now I know not to listen to promises made by DE, they seem to be as hollow as a drum. 

I just tested it. You shoot one hanging target ,another takes it place straight away.

You're over-reacting, and in a few days you'll see just how much.

DE, stick to your guns with this one. You did the right thing.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Diruuo]

I just tested it. You shoot one hanging target ,another takes it place straight away.

You're over-reacting, and in a few days you'll see just how much.

DE, stick to your guns with this one. You did the right thing.

Odd, because I'm pretty sure I had the opposite observations... It's getting even later (3:47 AM), gonna test some more tomorrow. 

 

P.S. I'm 100% sure it counts turrets, cameras and has no target priority, though.... 

 

And yes, when I get one-shot on a 4-forma maxed out Vauban by level 40 enemies, AND get nerfed in the one good thing I had going for me, I'll be reacting pretty sharply. 

 

Vauban is no longer good at CC, he absolutely sucks at tanking and speed running and he's pretty weak on the damage part. What do we do now? 

 

Give me another frame whose skills are based on deployables and has an effective skill set and a straight up purpose. (2 skills in the late game does not count as an effective skill set, and it might as well be a skill and a half now). 

 

Look at the new rhino, 4 useful Skills, all good in different situations, + naturally tanky, has one downside - he's slow. He's good at buffing up team mates, doing damage, defending things, CCing. We could only CC. Damn, so broken, kill the frame immediately! 

 

Yes, I will over react. If Vauban stays like that, DE should at least apologize for breaking all of them promises. I was praising them for how awesome of a company they are, and boom, they break 3 huge promises in a single patch day. 

 

Disappointed customer as I have said above. 

 

Good night now. 

[Big_Ed]

 

Vortex: No longer affects other players.

 

 

You mean affects NO ONE!............................i dont mind it not affecting "other players" but i hate vauban now.

 

Fun factor on a scale of 0 to 5 just went to a -1.

 

I was led to believe it would still affect the player that casted it on several DE sources including this one. I hope this was a mistake.

[Zakalwe]

Odd, because I'm pretty sure I had the opposite observations... It's getting even later (3:47 AM), gonna test some more tomorrow. 

 

P.S. I'm 100% sure it counts turrets, cameras and has no target priority, though.... 

 

And yes, when I get one-shot on a 4-forma maxed out Vauban by level 40 enemies, AND get nerfed in the one good thing I had going for me, I'll be reacting pretty sharply. 

 

Vauban is no longer good at CC, he absolutely sucks at tanking and speed running and he's pretty weak on the damage part. What do we do now? 

 

Give me another frame whose skills are based on deployables and has an effective skill set and a straight up purpose. (2 skills in the late game does not count as an effective skill set, and it might as well be a skill and a half now). 

 

Look at the new rhino, 4 useful Skills, all good in different situations, + naturally tanky, has one downside - he's slow. He's good at buffing up team mates, doing damage, defending things, CCing. We could only CC. Damn, so broken, kill the frame immediately! 

 

Yes, I will over react. If Vauban stays like that, DE should at least apologize for breaking all of them promises. I was praising them for how awesome of a company they are, and boom, they break 3 huge promises in a single patch day. 

 

Disappointed customer as I have said above. 

 

Good night now. 

Sorry man, but all you've done is shown that you were relying entirely on floating an entire room of enemies to use Vauban well.

Vauban can still be used well.

 

your problem doesn't lie with Vauban.

[RushingL]

The first thing what crossed my mind was: ok, that's a good change of vortex.

Vauban is technically the perfect defender. But in other missions it's SLOW. It's not even a TANK.  

It couldn't act very well against grineer and sometimes it's worthless against corpus.

So, in my opinion it's the perfect defender for infestation missions, but only when you have it upgraded with at least streamline, a big bastille (9) and some continuity mods, otherwise the special skill itself is not even powerfull enough to defend a crypod.

 

Yes, it's a powerfull defskill, but on the other hand Vauban is not easy to farm because the parts are only dropped with random alerts, instead of all the other warframes (I am just missing the saryn, so I got prove when you need to).

 

My point of view is that Vauban is worthless when you nerf it this way, because it's slow and an antitank. The vortex is not powerfull enough to kill the enemies at level 25+ and Vauban is a proslowdowner for every mission. Without that skill a vauban is not only less strong but you need to double drop the bastille for a usefull bastille. But why? It's very costfull already without energy vampire on the higher levels. 

 

The people who want to nerf vauban have or never played them or don't understand the main power/idea of vauban. 

 

Hopefully the crew of Warframe will rethink about this idea and will turn this idea back to how it was about 24 hours ago instead of ''just a warframe putting back to the extreme basic skills." 

[soyatu]

fair enough.

[taiiat]

What if, bastille used a point system ,so reguler units are worth 1, heavy units are worth 2, and it could lift a total of 24 points?

this is a potential option. bigger enemies should probably be worth a point or two more than that, but i think i like this. 

the enemy cap then would be dependant on what is there, rather than counting a Leaper as the same threat as a Napalm.

 

 

The people who want to nerf vauban have or never played them or don't understand the main power/idea of vauban.

i never considered Vauban balanced, and i've used him a considerable amount. i mean hell, i fought tons of grineer without any issue, the stunlock from Teslas made it pretty easy. i didn't even need to use Bastile more than once or twice, for the entire duration of all the waves. something like a Decoy gets 90% of the enemies to ignore the objective.

 

and balance should never be connected with difficulty to obtain. games should not give you the tools for easy mode just because you have something super rare. the game should always provide challenge without artificial difficulty. 

 

 

 

as for comparisons to Frost, Frost needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. 3 powers on him are nearly useless for the clearly Defense oriented frame he is, but 3 of his skills are arguably offensive. 

Frost should be on the chopping block next and have the stupid S#&$ cut out of him, and make him a true Defensive frame. that way he'll have more than one power.

and we all know SnowGlobe is dumb levels of instant survivability, but there are other issues with enemies killing objectives too quickly without it, so for the time being unfortunately Frost must remain the band-aid for that problem.

but by no means is Frost the definitive solution. it's a temporary fix, and once no longer needed, should be removed.

 

if Digital Extremes chose to fix Frost first and Vauban after, the Frost fanboys would complain about Vauban just as much as you all are complaining about Frost. so in other words, no matter what they do, they're wrong?

Edited September 7, 2013 by taiiat

[Zakalwe]

The first thing what crossed my mind was: ok, that's a good change of vortex.

Vauban is technically the perfect defender. But in other missions it's SLOW. It's not even a TANK.  

It couldn't act very well against grineer and sometimes it's worthless against corpus.

So, in my opinion it's the perfect defender for infestation missions, but only when you have it upgraded with at least streamline, a big bastille (9) and some continuity mods, otherwise the special skill itself is not even powerfull enough to defend a crypod.

 

Yes, it's a powerfull defskill, but on the other hand Vauban is not easy to farm because the parts are only dropped with random alerts, instead of all the other warframes (I am just missing the saryn, so I got prove when you need to).

 

My point of view is that Vauban is worthless when you nerf it this way, because it's slow and an antitank. The vortex is not powerfull enough to kill the enemies at level 25+ and Vauban is a proslowdowner for every mission. Without that skill a vauban is not only less strong but you need to double drop the bastille for a usefull bastille. But why? It's very costfull already without energy vampire on the higher levels. 

 

The people who want to nerf vauban have or never played them or don't understand the main power/idea of vauban. 

 

Hopefully the crew of Warframe will rethink about this idea and will turn this idea back to how it was about 24 hours ago instead of ''just a warframe putting back to the extreme basic skills." 

 

Again, you're wrong.

12 enemies is fine in every single area of the game, aside from high level Xini.High level Xini is the ONLY place you feel the change in a way that prevents you doing what you used to do, and as what you used to do was exploit a skill to get too far too easily, this change has brought things in line.

I have close to 100 hours in Vauban, I have used him in every aspect of the game. Since the update, I've run Xini, T3 Def, Mobile Def, and a bunch of random missions from low level to high to test him out. 

 

Bastille is fine. Float 12, kill one, another takes its place. 

You don't need more than that in anything but exploiting higher levels of defense. If Bastille had been released this way, people would not be calling for a buff because a buff would seem ridiculous.

Trust me, Vauban is fine.