Vauban 9.8: Feedback Thread

[RushingL]

Vauban can do this effectively in EVERY SINGLE MODE OF PLAY.

The only difference now is that:

1. It takes a tiny bit more player thought to achieve.

2. You can't exploit endless defense as easily.

That's the only difference.

I have no idea why you can't see that.

 

Are you scared of replying me, or what? Point 2: yeah... endless defense as easily? You have broken your vauban "skills" with this because you certainly don't understand how vauban works. As simple as this: 20 - 23 seconds beasts in the air to shoot them ASAP and after then you need to  deploy another bastille or vortex which's costfull itself comparing with other warframes. Does it mean that other warframes are OP? In my opinion it means that vauban is to much nerfed. I would like at least 20 beasts in my bastille during that 20 - 23 seconds (shoot one per second is fast itself) and with some mods you could upgrade it till 25 as max itself. I upgraded my streamline, continuity, constitution and stretch to the max for just 20 seconds for a half baked skill? I am ok with the end of the unlimited "hanging beasts" but this way the vauban is blown away from the field. And yeah, I did practice it myself just a few minutes ago.

[Zakalwe]

Are you scared of replying me, or what? 

No.

 

I've explained why Endless Defense shouldn't be a benchmark.

If you would like me to explain it further, I've written a post here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103306-why-do-so-many-of-you-want-to-balance-this-game-around-exploitation-of-defense-missions/

[Diruuo]

Putting up answers in bold and underlining them because I'm too tired to bother with anything else. 

I already said I don't think you're an awful player, I just think you're stuck thinking endless defense is the only valuable thing in the game. And it's proven by the next thing you write:

Yes you did say it, multiple times, when I specifically told you not to do it because you simply do not know me.

 

I personally hate endless defense. But Due to the current state of the game it is expected of every frame to perform great at that. Inability to do so renders a frame Obsolete. People don't want him even in normal groups, no one picks him up. It's what happened to Volt, it's what's going to happen to Vauban. The public is short sighted, it's what led to this change in the first place. 

 

Do you not see that because you only find value in the one single instance that this change "breaks" Bastille, you are relying on Bastille to enjoy the game?

Do you not see that, really?
 

I'm not the one that "finds value in Bastille", it's the community. And the community's mindset in the end affects my gameplay. As I have said several times - I'll continue to solo with Vauban and I'll probably do it with ease. But the fact that after so much effort and time put into the frame a newly crafted Nova or Frost without any forma or even a potato makes my maxed out Frame obsolete is what bugs me. I'm not relying on anything to enjoy anything. The inability for a frame to perform at the one thing he's good at renders him obsolete, lack of groups and flaming in groups is what causes me to not enjoy the game. When my frame choice causes general negativity and the inability to do what I used to is what makes me not enjoy the game. 

 

It makes him OBSOLETE. I'm starting to think English it not your native language and you just Do Not Get what I'm saying. 

 

Vauban can do this effectively in EVERY SINGLE MODE OF PLAY.

The only difference now is that:

1. It takes a tiny bit more player thought to achieve.
2. You can't exploit endless defense as easily.

That's the only difference.

I have no idea why you can't see that.
 

There is no "Smart way" to play new Bastille. It picks up whatever it seems fit, not whatever you seem fit. It's not about timing. It's about you putting down a Bastille when you're getting overwhelmed and you continuing to get overwhelmed because Bastille just cracks up and lets all the dangerous things in. Why bother with it in the first place if you'll need to Vortex whatever goes through. If you're vortexing anyway might as well not waste the energy on the Bastille. 

 

Ok, let's try again:

in every SINGLE mission type and area of the game EXCEPT high level defense, Bastille can be used when it really matters to control the battlefield PERFECTLY.

The ONLY change is that it requires a little more player input to achieve, and endless defense cannot be exploited.

I'm repeating myself because you're not paying attention.

Which is ironic, because it's the thing you're accusing me of doing...
 

Read above. 

 

Do you really not see that by telling us Vauban is broken because he can no longer exploit Endless Defense, and that he should be changed back, that you are attempting to balance the game around Defense?

I really cannot see how you're missing this...

 

Again, read above. You're repeating yourself. I'm done talking to you. You don't seem to even try to get it. It's like I'm talking to a wall. Think whatever you feel like thinking. Vauban's performance and nerf make him obsolete in the eyes of the public, and that makes him unwanted and, eventually, he just drops off viability overall. Just the same way Volt did. Just the same way Rhino did before the buff. 

 

[EDIT] I find the fact that you call Bastille an exploit quite funny. If Bastille is an exploit that renders one faction useless then what is Snow Globe, what is Chaos, what is Molecular Prime? Clever use of game mechanics? Even endless Chaos wasn't an exploit. Stop calling things that aren't exploits, exploits. 

 

[EDIT 2] Still no input from DE on this subject. This is a feedback thread after all... The broken promises still bug me, I wonder if there's going to be an official explanation of that. 

Edited September 7, 2013 by Diruo

[Ketec]

the numebr of targets S#&$ makes it crap in survival and defense maps now.
Keep it as is but make it so that you can use only one at a time or such -_-
Another frame i gotta stop playing...

Guess back to frost.

[RushingL]

No.

 

I've explained why Endless Defense shouldn't be a benchmark.

If you would like me to explain it further, I've written a post here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103306-why-do-so-many-of-you-want-to-balance-this-game-around-exploitation-of-defense-missions/

Why are you denying my idea of just making a limit on bastille whichs somewhat more worth it playing with vauban? The main problems vauban players are putting into this discussion is about the low limit. Maybe you should better listen to them. ;)

[Ketec]

i only played vauban due to the bastilel and tesla.

Tesla becomes worthless at high levels, specially against non corpus (armor annihilates its damage).

Bastille now only drops a few enemies, rest get through - and tesla cant kil lthem.

 

The bounce is worthless and ult  range/damage sucks + it can easily kill you if it goes wrong.

[Tsoe]

bastille was OP and we all know it actually..

 

my main problem is vortex having less uses

 

T_T

 

 

also smarter AI could have been a fix too cause yeah all ennemies running in bastille 1 by 1 was like lol

Edited September 7, 2013 by Tsoe

[Zakalwe]

Why are you denying my idea of just making a limit on bastille whichs somewhat more worth it playing with vauban? The main problems vauban players are putting into this discussion is about the low limit. Maybe you should better listen to them. ;)

 The ONLY "problem" with the low limit is the fact that you can no longer exploit Bastille's potential in endless defense and reach higher waves too easily.

For 99% of the game, Bastille now feels balanced.

 

 

[EDIT] I find the fact that you call Bastille an exploit quite funny. If Bastille is an exploit that renders one faction useless then what is Snow Globe, what is Chaos, what is Molecular Prime? Clever use of game mechanics? Even endless Chaos wasn't an exploit. Stop calling things that aren't exploits, exploits. 

 

I have no idea how you don't see how the old Bastille and current Snow globe are used to exploit easy completion of higher end defense modes.

If you can't understand this we cannot discuss this further.

[drewbicus]

Go play a few waves of Infested defense and then come back and tell us again about how this capture limit is so wonderful.

 

 

16 with Focus mod seems fair enough. And that they finally fix the Vortex is actually a good thing. Besides Tesla is as spammable as ever so I don't think I have any problems.

I'll see when I have done some testing with mah fave frame.

[Diruuo]

 

 The ONLY "problem" with the low limit is the fact that you can no longer exploit Bastille's potential in endless defense and reach higher waves too easily.

For 99% of the game, Bastille now feels balanced.

 

I have no idea how you don't see how the old Bastille and current Snow globe are used to exploit easy completion of higher end defense modes.

If you can't understand this we cannot discuss this further.

 

I'm not saying they don't allow defense modes to happen. Those skills single handedly make defense modes happen. But that's how they were designed. Don't direct the usage of a skill at me calling me an exploiter, Direct it at Digital Extremes who have designed their systems like that.  I just believe you misunderstand to word "exploit" and it's intended usage. 

 

[EDIT] What am I doing, I thought I'm done with you. You are skipping parts of my post that you don't feel like bothering with and you still haven't got the main issue at hand here. Talking to walls is not fun. Back to farming Nyx. Or maybe I should just go play some Smite, a lot less frustrating these days, and it's a PvP MOBA. (Ain't that saying something) 

Edited September 7, 2013 by Diruo

[drewbicus]

So...what? Your logic is "I don't want people who use frames like Vauban to be particularly useful at the ONE TASK that makes the frame worthwhile?

 

WTH do you think Vauban is good for? BOUNCE? Gimme a break. Vortex is weak as heck compared to other ults, Tesla is useless, bounce is a joke. Vauban has low armor and shields. It has exactly ONE thing going for it: A single, really good crowd control power. That was the frame's ONLY genuinely useful power. And now is is screwed.

 

Wait till the next time you are doing infested defense and instead of being able to bail at the wave you choose that you are now forced to bail at low waves, or see MISSION FAILED a LOT because you can't slow that horde down to fight it.

 

 

 The ONLY "problem" with the low limit is the fact that you can no longer exploit Bastille's potential in endless defense and reach higher waves too easily.

For 99% of the game, Bastille now feels balanced.
 

I have no idea how you don't see how the old Bastille and current Snow globe are used to exploit easy completion of higher end defense modes.

If you can't understand this we cannot discuss this further.

 

[Zakalwe]

I'm not saying they don't allow defense modes to happen. Those skills single handedly make defense modes happen. But that's how they were designed. Don't direct the usage of a skill at me calling me an exploiter, Direct it at Digital Extremes who have designed their systems like that.  I just believe you misunderstand to word "exploit" and it's intended usage. 

 

[EDIT] What am I doing, I thought I'm done with you. You are skipping parts of my post that you don't feel like bothering with and you still haven't got the main issue at hand here. Talking to walls is not fun. Back to farming Nyx. Or maybe I should just go play some Smite... 

You don't understand.

Defense modes existed before Bastille.

Bastille's introduction made Endless Defense too easy, its limitless capture was an exploit on Xini.

DE recognised this, and made a change. 

This is very basic stuff.

You're right, talking to walls is not fun. I hope you understand the irony of your statement.

Cheers!

[Zakalwe]

So...what? Your logic is "I don't want people who use frames like Vauban to be particularly useful at the ONE TASK that makes the frame worthwhile?

 

 

 

If you really think that the only place for Vauban to be viable is high wave defense, then I have nothing more to say to you.

[Tsoe]

oh well

 

well we have allready have ash with his caps too

 

-------------------

 

But i agree Vauban is suposed to be strategical frame rng stuff dont help strategie a lot

 

another way to nerf it and still let it being usefull could have been reducing the AOE to a pretty tiny aera  (Volt shield size)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i love bounce it damage stuff now they said

Edited September 7, 2013 by Tsoe

[RushingL]

You don't understand.

Defense modes existed before Bastille.

Bastille's introduction made Endless Defense too easy, its limitless capture was an exploit on Xini.

DE recognised this, and made a change. 

This is very basic stuff.

You're right, talking to walls is not fun. I hope you understand the irony of your statement.

Cheers!

Just a single question: what do you mean by unendless games? Because when somebody is knocked off by wave 50 it's not an unendless game and somebody have played for about 1,5hour while using it's skills instead of an OP pistol or whatever. 

[Atomsk42]

I've been thinking a lot about this nerf and how it can be made better, because at the moment Bastille is absolutely unreliable and undpredictable spell totally affected by random, I personally hate to use skills that are unpredictable in their results, almost no frame in the game have a skill as unraliable as current Bastille is, and for a defence frame as squishy as Vauban you want to be absolutely sure in the outcome of youre actions.

 

After considering every aspect of this problem( and knowing why Bastille was thought as OP) I think the logical solution may be in Bastille suspending all of the enemies in it's radius upon use, and after that not letting anything to pass through it, thus you'll be dealing with a swarm of angry infested knocking at your door, waiting for the skill to run out. I suppose this can give the feel of safety that old Bastille provided(and that is wanted by most of us here) without turning the game into shooting range.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Atomsk42

[Lumireaver]

Alternatives to breaking Bastille:

 

Slow/Debuff - Remove the "suspend enemies in midair" thing entirely. Make Bastille inflict a huge, huge slow on enemies and significant armor debuff. 

Meat wall - Make suspended enemies susceptible to enemy fire. Bullets that hit enemies get blocked by their levitated bodies. Chargers do damage to other infested as they charge through the Bastille. Additional slow effect is optional.

[Diruuo]

You don't understand.

Defense modes existed before Bastille.

Bastille's introduction made Endless Defense too easy, its limitless capture was an exploit on Xini.

DE recognised this, and made a change. 

This is very basic stuff.

You're right, talking to walls is not fun. I hope you understand the irony of your statement.

Cheers!

 

 

A lot of people in this thread are trying to show you how wrong you are and you are just not seeing it. You seem to sit on this forum a lot, for someone who does that you seem to be very incapable of reading and understanding what we're telling you. 

 

We're not talking about Endless Defense as a mode. We're talking about the viability of a frame within the game. For the umpteenth time, his inability to do what he did before is making him obsolete the same way Volt is. 

 

If DE is "recognizing things" why not nerf everything about Endless Defense and leave it at that? Nerf Globe, nerf Chaos, World on Fire already has a target limit, nerf MP so that it doesn't blow up entire rooms in Endless Defense. Nerf Blessing. 

 

The issue is that none of these are nerfed. They are still masters at their specific niche role. Only Vauban got nerfed. Which, again, for the umpteenth time, makes him Obsolete. I keep replying with different wording and you keep being aggressive and offensive towards me without even comprehending what we're telling you.

 

If it's "that basic" why was it introduced in the first place. In your opinion DE is really this incompetent to introduce mechanics like these? The reason for this nerf was the outcry of the community that is unable to get Vauban and only sees Bastille in his kit. 

 

"Cheers"? Don't pretend to be a nice fellow, it makes you look sad. You go all aggressive on my trying to make me look like an incompetent player in order to invalidate my comment and then you finish it off with a "Cheers" trying to sound like the good guy? Get a grip. No one on this forum is brain dead. 

Edited September 7, 2013 by Diruo

[Transvistinator]

In all honestly i havent field tested this, But seriously limiting the bastille by number of enemys inside cripples it for the one thing it was usefull on, Infested defence.

Compared to frost, Whos bubble still provides easymode on grenieer/corpus defence this is pretty much a nerf with no reason

 

Decreasing the range or adding a time limit to the amount of time 1 target can be suspended, Is fine, Putting a flat 16 limit when hundreds of infested spawn at the start of a wave is making a 1 maybe 2 ability frame useless, Fact is vauban was only "God teir" Because of bastille, And now hes left with tesla thats useless against anything against corpus, Bounce thats semi-ok for getting a toxic away from the pod/jumping around and vortex, Thats short range deals no damage and ragdolls the enemy so you cant see how much health its on, Vortex doesnt even properly draw in ancients they just sit on the ground and play dead, Taking 1 damage every second

[neKroMancer]

Hmm, played post-patch Vauban already.

All you need now is a good weapon that kills fast or tackteam with other players. Bastille still works like a charm as long as you wipe those runner/charger fast enough. Not sure all these 14 pages of fuss is about.

[Zakalwe]

A lot of people in this thread are trying to show you how wrong you are and you are just not seeing it. You seem to sit on this forum a lot, for someone who does that you seem to be very incapable of reading and understanding what we're telling you. 

 

 

And many more across the forums are agreeing with me. They're just not coming here to discuss it because they understand the futilty of banging their ahead against a wall, something I'm obviously too thick to recognise...

 

We're not talking about Endless Defense as a mode. We're talking about the viability of a frame within the game. For the umpteenth time, his inability to do what he did before is making him obsolete the same way Volt is. 

 

Yet he isn't obsolete. 

In every single mode aside from Xini, he is still just as strong as before.

You can still control the entire room.

The majority of the time, there won't be more than 12 enemies within range to float in any other modes aside from defense, so the majority of the time it doesn't matter.

When it does matter, when the change makes Bastille less effective to the point it hinders you, when you can't kill quick enough to keep replacing enemies in the prison... this ONLY occurs in endless defense at high waves.

So, if he's perfectly viable in the majority of the game...

If the ONLY place this change is causing you trouble is the one mode that it was able to exploit before and make too easy...

If you're calling for the skill to be reverted because of this...

Then you're asking us to balance the game against Endles Defense. 

 

If DE is "recognizing things" why not nerf everything about Endless Defense and leave it at that? Nerf Globe, nerf Chaos, World on Fire already has a target limit, nerf MP so that it doesn't blow up entire rooms in Endless Defense. Nerf Blessing. 

 

 

They need to balance things in increments so they get a feel for the exact balances that need to be made.

 

 

The issue is that none of these are nerfed. They are still masters at their specific niche role. Only Vauban got nerfed. Which, again, for the umpteenth time, makes him Obsolete.

 

And, as I've explained and as you've ignored many times now, Vauban is STILL great at CC. He still performs his niche perfectly. 

You just can't use a limitless Bastille to make high end Xini too easy.

The rest of the game... Bastille works perfectly, and requires just a tiny bit more player input which makes the game a bit more interesting.

 

If it's "that basic" why was it introduced in the first place. In your opinion DE is really this incompetent to introduce mechanics like these? The reason for this nerf was the outcry of the community that is unable to get Vauban and only sees Bastille in his kit. 

 

It's the same with every frame. POwers on release are either too much or too little, they're rarely balanced from the off. And, as other aspects of th game change, powers that were once more in line with the norm require changes.

This is how development works, and what being part of a beta means.

They're trying to develop the game, not stagnate.

 

[Zakalwe]

Hmm, played post-patch Vauban already.

All you need now is a good weapon that kills fast or tackteam with other players. Bastille still works like a charm as long as you wipe those runner/charger fast enough. Not sure all these 14 pages of fuss is about.

 

Exactly.

 

In all honestly i havent field tested this, But seriously limiting the bastille by number of enemys inside cripples it for the one thing it was usefull on, Infested defence.

 

Bastille was never only good at infested defnse. Bastille is great for every single game mode.

As is Tesla.

As is Vortex.

You just need to know how to use them, and not rely on floating every enemy in sight as your single tactic.

[FB-22]

Vortex change is great, but bastille nerf is too harsh... 12(16) is pretty abysmal. Maybe if the limits were doubled, it'd still be a nerf but bastille would actually be still useful.

[Zakalwe]

To anyone who thinks Bastille is ineffective in game...

Add me to friends, we'll play any mode you want. I'll show you it works perfectly across the board.

 

[monkeys9ab]

at wave 100 nothing is op