Different operator control setup

[MdzKnight]

(No feedback section for operators? Well I guess that'd spoil things)

Warning: This starts out sounding like a royal nitpick, but stick with me here. I've added other ideas in here to hopefully make it worth it's reading time.

I've always wondered why the void powers the operators have are bound to movement. You can't crouch without entering void mode which uses energy, you can't void dash (ctrl+space) without using void mode (ctrl) first (the split-second extra energy use is neglectable though). Void blast is bound to your melee button (which is ok, considering operators right now at least, aren't built for physical combat). But all in all, I'm just a little bit bothered that you can't crouch without chewing away energy when you don't even need the stealth part (as to why I even need the crouch without void mode, well roleplaying of course. 😄 I'm a simply guy).

It feels odd since we always have reserved keys for Warframe abilities (1-4 on the keyboard by default). But all this keys are effectively blank when you're on your operator. Why not use them?

My guess is, looking at Umbra and his autonomous behavior when on operator mode, is that DE is eventually planning to be able to fire your Warframes abilities remotely while you're still on your operator, which might definitely take time, considering not every Warframe ability can be used with one press of a button (Ex: Exalted blade), and those keys are being reserved for that.

But while that's not the case (or maybe it'll never be and I've guessed wrong), why not use those keys for operator abilities instead?

• No changes to these:
  • Mouse 1 - Void Beam
  • Alternate Fire - Amp Alternate Fire
  • Shift - Slide
  • Melee - Void Blast

--- Proposed Changes ---

• Ability 1 - Extra ability
  • Sub-suggestion: Focus specialty ability/Transcendence.
    • Since we will now use extra keys for abilities, this might open up the possibility of using an added ability from the focus tree exclusive to your strongest/primary school?
    • I noticed that the transcendence ability (where you hold your operator key) no longer works (last I checked anyway), maybe it can be returned here with it's own cooldown?
• Ability 2 - Void Absorb
  • Sub-suggestion: Operator flavored loot vacuum ability.
  • Since the pets/sentinels stay with your Warframe when you take out the operator, this button can be used for a mag-like ability where operators use their void powers to suck in loot. For progression feel, have it zap a substantial amount of your amp energy pool everytime you use it (so it can be used more frequently after you obtain the more specialized amps).
• Ability 3 - Void Dash
  • This will allow using Void Dash without having to use Void Mode first.
  • Same method of aiming when the ability is fired.
• Ability 4 - Void mode:
  • Now a toggle ability, this will immediately force the operator to crouch upon activation (if not crouching already).
  • Releasing the crouch key will not deactivate void mode (will have to recast void mode instead).
  • Fall speed is slowed as always.
  • Other reasons for cancelling void mode is pretty much the same:
    • Ability recast.
    • Death (Transference static).
    • Run out of energy.
    • Firing void beam (releasing mouse 1 doesn't turn void mode back on automatically)

Another thing, if this gets implemented, I'd also like to add that a codex entry regarding operator abilities be added upon unlocking Warrior mode with the Quills.

Also, when I was typing all this, I saw some pitchforks from the back of my psyche (that yells "stop empowering operators, they make Warframes pointless!") and felt that I should say in advance that I'm only re-contextualizing the controls (well, I did add the vacuum part). I'm not fully aware of DE's intentions when it comes to just how powerful Operators will get, though I do enjoy the mechanics currently in place, and would simply like to improve the ergonomics side of it.

Thank you for reading.

Edited November 30, 2018 by MandzPH

[peterc3]

35 minutes ago, MandzPH said:

My guess is, looking at Umbra and his autonomous behavior when on operator mode, is that DE is eventually planning to be able to fire your Warframes abilities remotely while you're still on your operator

This is unlikely to ever happen.

 

36 minutes ago, MandzPH said:

Ability 2 - Void Absorb

• Sub-suggestion: Operator flavored loot vacuum ability.
• Since the pets/sentinels stay with your Warframe when you take out the operator, this button can be used for a mag-like ability where operators use their void powers to suck in loot. For progression feel, have it zap a substantial amount of your amp energy pool everytime you use it (so it can be used more frequently after you obtain the more specialized amps).

They would not take up a hotkey slot to do vacuum. Either they get it or they don't, putting it as an ability doesn't change the calculus.

[Ventura_Highway]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

They would not take up a hotkey slot to do vacuum. Either they get it or they don't, putting it as an ability doesn't change the calculus.

Yeah, only ancient Nekros mains from before desecrate was an aura would be able to handle an active vacuum.

[Nitro747]

Not gonna agree with everything but won't be overly pedantic to say "this will never happen" or "this tiny detail is bad".

Operators are needing some spice up on their gameplay and mobility would totally be a good thing for them, as they are much clunkier than the fluid gameplay of warframes.

[MdzKnight]

 

2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is unlikely to ever happen.

I agree. That was just a guess on my part as I said, because the lack of use for your ability1234 keys really stands out when you're on operator. I just can't help but think that there should be a reason for it.

2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

They would not take up a hotkey slot to do vacuum. Either they get it or they don't, putting it as an ability doesn't change the calculus.

 

50 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Yeah, only ancient Nekros mains from before desecrate was an aura would be able to handle an active vacuum.

Yep, it's the same exact vacuum. I wasn't able to phrase it properly, but my intention for the absorb ability is to simply give the vacuum mechanic a different form/flavor rather than another passive managed by an external element in your loadout, I'm not trying to balance or justify it's existence outright.

As for it taking a hotkey, it's just an extended suggestion I added as using the ability keys (again) will allow the operator to have more abilities. It can be replaced by anything that also acts as a QoL improvement for operator gameplay.

43 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

Not gonna agree with everything but won't be overly pedantic to say "this will never happen" or "this tiny detail is bad".

Operators are needing some spice up on their gameplay and mobility would totally be a good thing for them, as they are much clunkier than the fluid gameplay of warframes.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Less clunky controls was a major part of my intention in suggesting this.

Edited November 30, 2018 by MandzPH

[Ventura_Highway]

2 minutes ago, MandzPH said:

I agree. That was just a guess on my part as I said, because the lack of use for your ability1234 keys really stands out when you're on operator. I just can't help but think that there should be a reason for it.

I think the way the abilities are is intended to be thematic in a number of ways, although I could just be trying to rationalize how aggravating using them can be. If I use Lightning Dash enough times it nauseates me somewhat.

 

5 minutes ago, MandzPH said:

Yep, it's the same exact vacuum. I wasn't able to phrase it properly, but my intention for the absorb ability is to simply give the vacuum mechanic a different form/flavor rather than another passive managed by an external element in your loadout, I'm not trying to balance or justify it's existence outright.

As for it taking a hotkey, it's just an extended suggestion I added as using the ability keys (again) will allow the operator to have more abilities. It can be replaced by anything that also acts as a QoL improvement for operator gameplay.

Funnily, if there was supposed to be a vacuum I think I'd prefer it attached to Void Dash. You collect stuff at the beginning and end of the Void Dash.

[MdzKnight]

36 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I think the way the abilities are is intended to be thematic in a number of ways, although I could just be trying to rationalize how aggravating using them can be. If I use Lightning Dash enough times it nauseates me somewhat.

I can see the point you're making there. The feeling I remember playing as an operator for the first time after The War Within quest was that moving your operator feels like 'it's own thing' because it's just so different compared to how Warframes move. I'd like to maintain that as well, while adding more control to the void powers that comes with it. It feels proper to have the extra buttons be used to that effect.

To further push the thematic difference, maybe we can make it that operator abilities are never offensive, for example (Toggable void mode, buff your warframe/party, return to warframe, etc) so that way players who play operators don't feel like they're using warframe abilities (since most warframe abilities are for killing or just aimed at the enemy in general).

36 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Funnily, if there was supposed to be a vacuum I think I'd prefer it attached to Void Dash. You collect stuff at the beginning and end of the Void Dash. 

Now we're talking. 😎 I like the sound of that. If different schools and augments can allow different ways of collecting items then I'm all for it. I'm not fully aware if it exists, but if there's an operator build that works really well when up close with enemies, this kind of vacuum will do wonders.

Edited November 30, 2018 by MandzPH

[AdunSaveMe]

You know what would really make Operators control a lot better? Void dash on shift. Having it on crouch jump is awkward as hell since it's almost a teleport, and it overlaps with the stealth function, meaning you can't do a normal jump while in stealth. I don't know why they have the slide, but that can always just be a normal slide from a sprint, and have that slide be invisible too.

[Ventura_Highway]

2 hours ago, MandzPH said:

Now we're talking. 😎 I like the sound of that. If different schools and augments can allow different ways of collecting items then I'm all for it. I'm not fully aware if it exists, but if there's an operator build that works really well when up close with enemies, this kind of vacuum will do wonders.

I think there's perhaps actually a greater point in all this. I think Vacuum on Dash might make sense because it augments the original purpose of dash. You're already dashing, now you just get loot while that's going on. Contrast this with Void Strike. Void Mode is for hiding the hell away from anything and everything, but the purpose of Void Strike is to kill. These are two entirely different things, and I think it helps explain why a lot of the Operator Focus Tree abilities are awkward and not so fun to use.

4 hours ago, MandzPH said:

I can see the point you're making there. The feeling I remember playing as an operator for the first time after The War Within quest was that moving your operator feels like 'it's own thing' because it's just so different compared to how Warframes move. I'd like to maintain that as well, while adding more control to the void powers that comes with it. It feels proper to have the extra buttons be used to that effect.

Going off my previous statement, I think if what's getting added on doesn't enhance already existing behavior on a move, it should probably be made into its own ability or not added on. I like how Operators differ from Warframes, but having abilities be casted by pressing a button, well that's way it is because that's the practical way to do things.

4 hours ago, MandzPH said:

To further push the thematic difference, maybe we can make it that operator abilities are never offensive, for example (Toggable void mode, buff your warframe/party, return to warframe, etc) so that way players who play operators don't feel like they're using warframe abilities (since most warframe abilities are for killing or just aimed at the enemy in general). 

Trying to avoid the primary function of Warframes would be good yes. The closest I would get into making direct-offense operator abilities would probably be in Madurai. I think it would be interesting if Madurai had the capacity to make Amp fire actually dangerous in higher level missions. I have an Amp with the Grammu Prism. Sometimes when I'm feeling flashy I'll bullet jump real high into the air and unload a salvo of grenades on some folks on the ground. Shifting into Operator Mode is faster than swapping off my melee.

 

 

[MdzKnight]

On 2018-12-01 at 7:56 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

You know what would really make Operators control a lot better? Void dash on shift. 

I do find myself using the slide every once in a while. It's a quick way to move around when you don't want to use Void Dash, so I'd like to keep that if possible.

On 2018-12-01 at 7:56 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

Having it on crouch jump is awkward as hell since it's almost a teleport, and it overlaps with the stealth function, meaning you can't do a normal jump while in stealth.

I also have issues with that, having to let go of the void mode just to go over a knee-high obstacle is absurd. It's also part of why I like to turn void mode into a toggable ability.

 

On 2018-12-01 at 9:28 AM, Ventura_Highway said:

I think there's perhaps actually a greater point in all this. I think Vacuum on Dash might make sense because it augments the original purpose of dash. You're already dashing, now you just get loot while that's going on.

Vacuum Dash, now that I think about it - is a good contender for for an arcane/augment/focus passive.

On 2018-12-01 at 9:28 AM, Ventura_Highway said:

Contrast this with Void Strike. Void Mode is for hiding the hell away from anything and everything, but the purpose of Void Strike is to kill. These are two entirely different things, and I think it helps explain why a lot of the Operator Focus Tree abilities are awkward and not so fun to use.

I guess that can't be helped, the focus system to my perspective is still very much in it's infancy, hence the contradictory nature of the operator's abilities. The things you can do right after The War Within kind of sums it up: You have void beam (attack), void mode (stealth), void dash (mobility) - things you already do with Warframes, but way better, regardless of whether they gel together or not. So hopefully, DE can fine tune operator gameplay so that players are allowed to combine the different powers/actions to their liking.

Like you might want to have vacuum dash, but another player can have the old dash but have longer dash range for example (I think I've seen something like that checking the focus trees).

On 2018-12-01 at 9:28 AM, Ventura_Highway said:

Trying to avoid the primary function of Warframes would be good yes. The closest I would get into making direct-offense operator abilities would probably be in Madurai. I think it would be interesting if Madurai had the capacity to make Amp fire actually dangerous in higher level missions. I have an Amp with the Grammu Prism. Sometimes when I'm feeling flashy I'll bullet jump real high into the air and unload a salvo of grenades on some folks on the ground. Shifting into Operator Mode is faster than swapping off my melee.

One of the interesting moments I had doing WarframeXOperator gameplay was when I realized for the first time that my void dash can increase the health regeneration of Warframes that I hit it with (Vazarin). As my frame that time was Nidus - I found myself taking out the operator to void dash to my frame and keep regeneration up, while fighting. There was a lot more button inputs than just playing with the Nidus, but was just much more interesting. I also do thing like using void blast to forcefully knock away enemies when I'm low on warframe energy, or bringing a damage oriented frame on a spy mission knowing the operator can handle the stealth parts, it just really felt good combining their abilities.

Edited December 3, 2018 by MandzPH