Adaption and Garuda

[Fiewel]

Originally I wanted to add this post to a topic about coming Garuda changes and where users used adaption for her. But after 5 min of searching I got to the conclusion that the topic was again removed without further notice. Its not locked for whatever reason, its simply gone.

Which leads to this post. As its burried under performance problems I relink here, if its true, its affecting every frame using the mod, but specially garuda as its the current frame with armor problems.

 

Edit:

Pure chance but I found the original topic, it was moved to general. Not going to link here because dont want another embed.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Fiewel

[koryfunny]

oh my god... 😮

think I'll kick out Adaptation afterall @--Banshee atleast until they fix that thing up!

Edited December 2, 2018 by koryfunny

[--Banshee]

2 hours ago, koryfunny said:

oh my god... 😮

think I'll kick out Adaptation afterall @--Banshee atleast until they fix that thing up!

Ok but it being broken isn't why it isn't useful at all. It isn't useful at all because Primed Flow and Quick Thinking alone are enough for her to be UN-KILLABLE.

[Shelusine]

 

13 hours ago, --Banshee said:

Ok but it being broken isn't why it isn't useful at all. It isn't useful at all because Primed Flow and Quick Thinking alone are enough for her to be UN-KILLABLE.

This, I respect people choice to use tank mods on her but honestly I fail to see how you can even die after her changes and why you'd want to handicap your dps for survivability. Even in endless rolling swap is a vastly superior additional option because her shield is that effective. 

[GPrime96]

2 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

 her shield is that effective. 

Are you sure about that? You would save yourself from dying more often with Rolling Guard than her Shield.

[Shelusine]

1 minute ago, GPrime96 said:

Are you sure about that? You would save yourself from dying more often with Rolling Guard than her Shield.

How so ? 

[koryfunny]

59 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

How so ? 

how... how you survive and deal with thos stupid things called staggers - the one thing Garuda should have inherited resistance but doesn't have?

[Shelusine]

3 hours ago, koryfunny said:

how... how you survive and deal with thos stupid things called staggers - the one thing Garuda should have inherited resistance but doesn't have?

I am not sure I understand your question. You mean QT staggers ? You just get used to it. At first I had the same complain but when your movements are correct getting staggered is more about a mistake on your side than anything else. And the rare times where it's technically unavoidable (you leap to generate your shield and then you get hit from a random flank by a level 150+ enemy) rolling guard pretty much save you 99.9% of the time. Just to be clear tho, just leap and quickly backspring. Rolling has an innate damage reduction which reduces the "hard" hits and thus reduce the staggers. That and you pretty much dodge hard hits by being mobile anyway. 

[BL4CKN0ISE]

Her movement abilities break the stagger even at really high level. Adaptation and Rolling Guard are unnecessary IMO, but I think Rolling Guard is the better of the two for her. I don't even see the point of Flow or Primed Flow with Garuda. The reason you normally want those with Quick Thinking is because the more energy you have, the better it works. Garuda already has enough energy at base and she has a constant amount coming from her 3rd ability. It's MUCH more important to have high efficiency if your goal is survivability. The smallest amount of health gives you full energy if you have high efficiency. That alone will easily keep you alive with QT.  

 

[catalyst22]

3 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

 I don't even see the point of Flow or Primed Flow with Garuda.

More Ehp and less time casting 3.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

51 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

More Ehp and less time casting 3.

Yeah, that makes sense.

That being said, Natural Talent makes her 3 one of the fastest/smoothest abilities to spam in Warframe. I get what you're saying, but more Ehp only gets you so far before it's meaningless. Similar to adding more health/armor. Her 3 + high efficiency is closer to having infinite Ehp. She always has access to full energy with a single cast, which is great for QT, but also perfect for getting more health with her 2 or Lifestrike. 

 

[Shelusine]

7 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Her movement abilities break the stagger even at really high level. Adaptation and Rolling Guard are unnecessary IMO, but I think Rolling Guard is the better of the two for her. I don't even see the point of Flow or Primed Flow with Garuda. The reason you normally want those with Quick Thinking is because the more energy you have, the better it works. Garuda already has enough energy at base and she has a constant amount coming from her 3rd ability. It's MUCH more important to have high efficiency if your goal is survivability. The smallest amount of health gives you full energy if you have high efficiency. That alone will easily keep you alive with QT.  

 

What ? Source on this ? Because afaik if you get staggered only your shield directional can save you (which is already huge but I don't remember her abilities ever working when staggered)

Adaptation and Rolling Guard are both unnecessary in normal gameplay, in endless going without rolling guard handicaps you, period. You have no reason not to use it on a garuda, the synergy is just too good.

Flow/Primed Flow with QT is mainly because there's 2 approach to ability chain, you either have a lot of energy or your abilities don't consume that much energy. QT synergize more with having more energy and Garuda produce infinite energy efficiency or not so the choice is obvious. Does that mean you can't replace flow for efficiency ? I mean you do whatever you prefer but as long as you have a bit of planning (which you should have with Garuda) efficiency isn't really the better option. 

6 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Yeah, that makes sense.

That being said, Natural Talent makes her 3 one of the fastest/smoothest abilities to spam in Warframe. I get what you're saying, but more Ehp only gets you so far before it's meaningless. Similar to adding more health/armor. Her 3 + high efficiency is closer to having infinite Ehp. She always has access to full energy with a single cast, which is great for QT, but also perfect for getting more health with her 2 or Lifestrike. 

 

For me it sounds more like you're talking about normal gameplay, if so you're totally right, in normal gameplay you could benefit a lot more from efficiency as a comfort zone for your gameplay since you barely take damage anyway.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

34 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

What ? Source on this ? Because afaik if you get staggered only your shield directional can save you (which is already huge but I don't remember her abilities ever working when staggered)

Adaptation and Rolling Guard are both unnecessary in normal gameplay, in endless going without rolling guard handicaps you, period. You have no reason not to use it on a garuda, the synergy is just too good.

Flow/Primed Flow with QT is mainly because there's 2 approach to ability chain, you either have a lot of energy or your abilities don't consume that much energy. QT synergize more with having more energy and Garuda produce infinite energy efficiency or not so the choice is obvious. Does that mean you can't replace flow for efficiency ? I mean you do whatever you prefer but as long as you have a bit of planning (which you should have with Garuda) efficiency isn't really the better option. 

For me it sounds more like you're talking about normal gameplay, if so you're totally right, in normal gameplay you could benefit a lot more from efficiency as a comfort zone for your gameplay since you barely take damage anyway.

I don't have a source. Just play the game and make sure you have Natural Talent equipped. I can always 1 or 2 out of QT stagger. 

I'm only talking about high level. Efficiency is not about comfort. Efficiency is about getting full energy with her 3. Full energy is for QT. QT is for survivability. It's literally the most active playstyle I've ever needed to use in Warframe. 

If QT synergizes better with having more energy, how would more efficiency not be the better option when it GIVES you MUCH more energy? I'm specifically talking about Garuda. I know how QT normally works. Anyways, you're talking about pool. Having a bigger pool of energy is not the same as having access to more energy at all times. My build requires me to be more active, but the payoff is much better IMO. I've tried both builds at high level(MOT). To each their own, but I definitely think higher efficiency is better if you're doing high level content and don't mind the playstyle.

Here's another way to look at it. Your energy pool with Primed Flow is like a big pitcher of water. With no efficiency, your 3 is like having a small glass to fill it up. My energy pool is like a small glass of water and my 3 is like a big pitcher that can easily fill that glass. QT doesn't care about how big the pool is. It only cares about the water. High efficiency simply gives you more of it per button press. That's why high efficiency works better at high level. It's just more energy overall.

Edited December 3, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[GPrime96]

6 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

If QT synergizes better with having more energy, how would more efficiency not be the better option when it GIVES you MUCH more energy? I'm specifically talking about Garuda. I know how QT normally works. Anyways, you're talking about pool. Having a bigger pool of energy is not the same as having access to more energy at all times. My build requires me to be more active, but the payoff is much better IMO. I've tried both builds at high level(MOT). To each their own, but I definitely think higher efficiency is better if you're doing high level content and don't mind the playstyle.

How spamming 3 with just 1 and 2 even active at high level? Unless you think high level is at 100.

[Shelusine]

2 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

I don't have a source. Just play the game and make sure you have Natural Talent equipped. I can always 1 or 2 out of QT stagger. 

I'm only talking about high level. Efficiency is not about comfort. Efficiency is about getting full energy with her 3. Full energy is for QT. QT is for survivability. It's literally the most active playstyle I've ever needed to use in Warframe. 

If QT synergizes better with having more energy, how would more efficiency not be the better option when it GIVES you MUCH more energy? I'm specifically talking about Garuda. I know how QT normally works. Anyways, you're talking about pool. Having a bigger pool of energy is not the same as having access to more energy at all times. My build requires me to be more active, but the payoff is much better IMO. I've tried both builds at high level(MOT). To each their own, but I definitely think higher efficiency is better if you're doing high level content and don't mind the playstyle.

 

You don't have a source about abilities breaking stagger ? Not only is your claim fishy but despite my 1K5 hours of gameplay I never once broke out of stagger with an ability.No matter how you look at it, unless you have evidence your claim is just false or misleading.

Do you even play high level ? Full energy with her 3 doesn't matter at all, it's all about taking 1 hit or none at all. Getting full energy when your max energy is 270 is unproductive in front of a 600 energy pool that doesn't go below 400 after chain. Assuming you even chain. If it fits your playstyle, great for you but there's no mathematical reason to do that with her.

Because you don't care about small hits, you only cares about big hits ? That's why it feels llike you are talking about low level gameplay where, yes if you take a hit and hit 3 it's potentially better but unrelated to high level where it's used to recover from #*!%s up. Also, yes it is the same with Garuda specifically, but you apparently do not know because you didn't get used to flow and went for the comfort with efficiency. And your build isn't anymore active than a flow build, you just take less hits, that's the only difference really. I don't even understand why that's an argument, simple maths proves it.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

@GPrime96 Have you been to MOT? You do know even at lvl 100 they're hitting like lvl 300 right? And no I'm not talking about lvl 100. Anyways, what are you talking about? This is about high energy pool versus high efficiency. If you're honestly thinking any of us(people who like endurance way past lvl 100) are using survivability mods other than Rolling Guard, I don't think this is the discussion for you. QT definitely doesn't work at 200+(MOT). 

But since you asked, yes. Spamming does work. No, you don't just spam 3 for the entire mission. You will get killed so quickly with QT+Primed Flow, even with full energy. You can just survive much longer by spamming 3 with high efficiency. The goal is still about playing smart and TTK. Remember, she still has a shield and high DPS. 

 

@Shelusine Test for yourself. Sources don't mean anything. I'm not even sure what you mean by stagger anymore. I'm not talking about knockdown. I'm talking about using your 1 or 2 while your being "staggered" to get out. Maybe it's not truly breaking stagger, but it's what I would call it. I was staggered, but now I'm somewhere else getting healing and I have my mirror up.

I like my build because of how it works at high level for me. I'm not talking about 5 hours. I don't do that. I'm talking about an hour+ into MOT. My current high efficiency can keep my from dying while doing that. That's my benchmark. If you're doing something that you call high level, please explain. Other than that, I'm not arguing about opinions. You can like your build, but I'm just not a fan. And if you don't know what I mean by "more active", I press more buttons more often. It's because I need to and because I can. Simple maths prove it. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[Shelusine]

35 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

@Shelusine Test for yourself. Sources don't mean anything. I'm not even sure what you mean by stagger anymore. I'm not talking about knockdown. I'm talking about using your 1 or 2 while your being "staggered" to get out. Maybe it's not truly breaking stagger, but it's what I would call it. I was staggered, but now I'm somewhere else getting healing and I have my mirror up.

I like my build because of how it works at high level for me. I'm not talking about 5 hours. I don't do that. I'm talking about an hour+ into MOT. My current high efficiency can keep my from dying while doing that. That's my benchmark. If you're doing something that you call high level, please explain. Other than that, I'm not arguing about opinions. You can like your build, but I'm just not a fan. And if you don't know what I mean by "more active", I press more buttons more often. It's because I need to and because I can. Simple maths prove it. 

Sources don't mean anything ? Yup, did you know ? if you eat poop it can cure your cold, test it for yourself I swear it's true. Joke aside, you can't break out of stagger while staggered, you can use your movement ability after to prevent chain staggers. If that's what you mean, yes. Anything else, source or irrelevant. 

Yeah, 1hr on Mot is honestly not very high level, you can indeed make efficiency work for that kind of gameplay. Go past 2hrs and you'll start regretting it. Also, no, you mathematically press less button than me since I have less efficiency and a higher energy pool. Quick Maths.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

48 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Sources don't mean anything ? Yup, did you know ? if you eat poop it can cure your cold, test it for yourself I swear it's true. Joke aside, you can't break out of stagger while staggered, you can use your movement ability after to prevent chain staggers. If that's what you mean, yes. Anything else, source or irrelevant. 

Yeah, 1hr on Mot is honestly not very high level, you can indeed make efficiency work for that kind of gameplay. Go past 2hrs and you'll start regretting it. Also, no, you mathematically press less button than me since I have less efficiency and a higher energy pool. Quick Maths.

Sources don't mean anything when we're playing the same game. You're a source just like any other player who can say whatever. Just test it. And yes, chain staggers. A single stagger isn't a problem. I said 1 hour+. I've already done close enough to 2 hours with her solo, but I typically test frames up to an hour or so. At Mot that's a lot harder than other missions. I'm not testing for TTK as much as I'm testing for survivability. The damage they do to me is the most important part. That's still around lvl 300+.

And let me make this super clear. I like my build because I like how it works when I've tested it compared to more energy/less efficiency in the same situations. So you can say, "you can indeed make efficiency work for that kind of gameplay. Go past 2hrs and you'll start regretting it.", but what does that have to do with anything? What does that even mean? It's the same for using Primed Flow. It doesn't make 2 hrs at MOT easier. 

Anyways, this has been derailed way too much...

[Shelusine]

57 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Sources don't mean anything when we're playing the same game. You're a source just like any other player who can say whatever. Just test it. And yes, chain staggers. A single stagger isn't a problem. I said 1 hour+. I've already done close enough to 2 hours with her solo, but I typically test frames up to an hour or so. At Mot that's a lot harder than other missions. I'm not testing for TTK as much as I'm testing for survivability. The damage they do to me is the most important part. That's still around lvl 300+.

And let me make this super clear. I like my build because I like how it works when I've tested it compared to more energy/less efficiency in the same situations. So you can say, "you can indeed make efficiency work for that kind of gameplay. Go past 2hrs and you'll start regretting it.", but what does that have to do with anything? What does that even mean? It's the same for using Primed Flow. It doesn't make 2 hrs at MOT easier. 

Anyways, this has been derailed way too much...

I live on the same planet as yours, it doesn't mean I am a reliable source for whatever is happening on it. You weren't even sure as to what stagger meant exactly and were unsure of your formulation as well. If you say something that contradicts general knowledge, you need to bring proof of your claim or you're just saying it. As I already said, I never managed to break out of a stagger, I don't even see how that's possible as by design they can only be resisted or recovered from faster. If you could break out of it, it would be known yet it isn't. So... proof or irrelevant, it's that simple. If you do 2hrs run just record them and post them here, we'll see how you break out of staggers.

It simply means that you'll go further with flow, 1-2hrs is easy enough, levels start to rank up fast past 2hrs and that's when your ehp makes a difference since taking 1 hit allows you to click the panic buttons. Does that make your 2hrs easier/harder ? That's not the point, your claim was the following: 

If QT synergizes better with having more energy, howwould more efficiency not be the better option when it GIVES you MUCH more energy?

I am simply telling you that mathematically it's not case. Flow is the superior option as there are no difference for your 2hrs and you'll go further with more ehp and not any less further with less efficiency.

[catalyst22]

8 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

I don't have a source. Just play the game and make sure you have Natural Talent equipped. I can always 1 or 2 out of QT stagger.

I tested it and i can confirm that this is false. It doesn't get you out of the stagger anymore than rolling does.

Efficiency builds are less "active" than max energy builds and have lower ehp to protect you from one shots and energy leeches. That said i would recommend ~130% efficency in addition to the Primed Flow.

The idea that you spam 3 more on the high efficiency build as a sort of heal is flawed. Simply because you restore a very similar amount of energy with Primed Flow(it being % based and all that) and then you have to use it again to get more energy so by your own button press metric its more active.

That said you can play what you want and that's fine. Also if you guys want to keep discussing this maybe consider what you're comparing in terms of mods? Fleeting Expertise + Primed Continuity vs Primed Flow + Streamline or Streamline vs Primed Flow?

[Am0r.UA]

"Primed Flow and Quick Thinking alone are enough for her to be UN-KILLABLE."
 

wrong. coz of viral status
Try her vs lvl80+ infested and die every time you got viral status :)

And one more:
adaptation not working with QT but works well with Shilds+Arcane Aegis
so garuda (to utilize double damage passive) needs something like Brief Respite aura + some Augur set mods, Shilds, QT+PF, adaptation and rolling guard (to remove statuses), Fleeting Expertise 50/50 (to convert full hp into full mp after swiching to your operator with two Magus Elevate) and ofc - Natural Talent. Arcane Aegis/Barrier/Guard
with this build she is more tanky than with umbra mods for armor and Just QT+PFlow

currently i have 3 builds
1. Harbinger - support with 200 Power for slash procs
2. Hunter - weapon doubledamage master + Synth set + 165% dmg after swapping weapons
3. Predator - melee finisher build

Edited December 4, 2018 by Am0r.UA

[koryfunny]

1 hour ago, Am0r.UA said:

"Primed Flow and Quick Thinking alone are enough for her to be UN-KILLABLE."
 

wrong. coz of viral status
Try her vs lvl80+ infested and die every time you got viral status 🙂

And one more:
adaptation not working with QT but works well with Shilds+Arcane Aegis
so garuda (to utilize double damage passive) needs something like Brief Respite aura + some Augur set mods, Shilds, QT+PF, adaptation and rolling guard (to remove statuses), Fleeting Expertise 50/50 (to convert full hp into full mp after swiching to your operator with two Magus Elevate) and ofc - Natural Talent. Arcane Aegis/Barrier/Guard
with this build she is more tanky than with umbra mods for armor and Just QT+PFlow

currently i have 3 builds
1. Harbinger - support with 200 Power for slash procs
2. Hunter - weapon doubledamage master + Synth set + 165% dmg after swapping weapons
3. Predator - melee finisher build

mind showing the builds?

[Am0r.UA]

38 minutes ago, koryfunny said:

mind showing the builds?

"login failed. Check your info"

sweet) Need to w8

Edited December 4, 2018 by Am0r.UA

[catalyst22]

2 hours ago, Am0r.UA said:

wrong. coz of viral status

Toxin? Am i missing something? If it's just toxin i don't see the problem.

The Augur range mod works well in an Adaptation build (if you need it), but i wouldn't focus on shields. If you don't get hit enough to keep Adaptation up they're just gonna get popped immediately.

[Am0r.UA]

13 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Toxin? Am i missing something? If it's just toxin i don't see the problem.

The Augur range mod works well in an Adaptation build (if you need it), but i wouldn't focus on shields. If you don't get hit enough to keep Adaptation up they're just gonna get popped immediately.

Viral.
If you got this status vs QT - you will die in 1 hit w/o possibility of being resurrected by teammates

 

adaptatiion not working with QT
Garuda who wants her passive up, should have 2 hp all the time. So only shilds could work with adaptation

Edited December 4, 2018 by Am0r.UA