How To Achieve Balance And Avoid Nerfing?

[Eisvogel]

   Hello everyone, i know that what you are about to read might conflict some people and possibly infuriate them or throw them into full rage state... but bare with me until the end and keep this what it is, constructive feedback. If you have a better idea by all means, i welcome you to share it with us here.

 

 

What is the current state of Balance?

 

   Mostly, frames are changing a lot from update to update, with DE constantly tweaking abilities and frames to achieve balance. Also, a common recurrent behavior seems to be that when a new frame comes out, outshines every and all frame.... while the other coolest frames up to that point get the NERFHAMMA.

   The energy system is also trivial, so apart from counted exceptions, most abilities have the same energy consumption among the different frames according to the skill number (like, ubers cost 100 energy... while most 1st skills cost 25). That makes it even more palpable when people feel their favorite XX frame's uber, is completely underwhelming compared to the all might YY frame's uber.

 

   In the end, we are in the middle of must-have frames because it's the only way to accomplish the mission (frost/vauban for defense as an example), overwhelming powers that make others feel worthless and forced to use the same frame, nerfs that wreck frames and make people feel cheated about spending their time, forma and reactors on that beloved frame. It's quite hard to balance each and every frame amidst all this chaos.

 

 

So.... How do we achieve balance and annihilate the NERFS for good?

 

   Well, my idea is to implement a dual system. While keeping the energy system intact, they could add a cooldowns system over it. How would that work:

 

   Frame-based ability cooldowns:  Each ability for each frame will have a customized cooldown, not global cooldowns depending only on if it's the 1st skill, the second or the uber. That means that each frame can be tweaked properly to remain competitive and to avoid rendering abilities useless.... for example, putting a high cooldown on something like Excalibur's super jump will effectively ruin the ability (the same goes for wormhole and teleport switch, etc) so those would get negligible cooldown times like only 1-2 seconds.

 

   Balance through cooldowns, not nerfs:  Suddenly, arises the possibility of balancing frames and abilities without needing to steal their godly might. And also, overwhelmingly destructive abilities and powers don't need to be scrapped or instantly discarded anymore. It also becomes a lot easier to achieve balance among the frames.... maybe XX's uber is far more devastating then YY's, but we can make YY's cooldown shorter. And thus, we can obliterate the concept of NERF from the face of this game too.

 

 

Thank you for your time

[Meatuchu]

I'm down for this. +1.

[Archistopheles]

If DE really felt the need to avoid nerfs at all costs, then they would release sub-par weapons and warframes, and then slowly buff them over time until the community stopped complaining about said weapons and warframes being too weak.

[BoompigXD]

No.

 

Cooldowns won't do jack S#&$, Nova's ultimate lasts for 60 seconds (The effect i mean) and has high damage, Cooldowns are only a minor inconvenience, unless you make Nova's cooldown 60 seconds, she'll still be overpowered has F***, and even if you make her ultimate 60 seconds, this would make her ultimate useless.

 

So no, this is a bad idea.

 

And i know all the Anti-Nerf people will be all over this

Edited September 12, 2013 by BoompigXD

[noneuklid]

OP, I'm sure you're a very nice person with many good qualities.

[Meatuchu]

No.

 

Cooldowns won't do jack S#&$, Nova's ultimate lasts for 60 seconds (The effect i mean) and has high damage, Cooldowns are only a minor inconvenience, unless you make Nova's cooldown 60 seconds, she'll still be overpowered has F***, and even if you make her ultimate 60 seconds, this would make her ultimate useless.

 

So no, this is a bad idea.

 

And i know all the Anti-Nerf people will be all over this

I'm all for the nerf bat, don't get me wrong, nova needs one desperately. So does Pull as of recently, honestly... But I like the idea that tough powers wouldn't be spammable. it wouldn't eliminate nerfs unless you want 3 minute cooldowns. but it's a step in the right direction for sure.

[ultrabomb9]

personally i believe every weapon should have variety.  making every frame equal with another just simply removes this variety and diversity that made games such as mass effect 3 or diablo 2 so enjoyable.

[Rapxtor]

I think the OP have some point here, when Nova was released it happen the same, now comes Necro, the same happen again, nerf arent health for any game, still think Nova need a fix, bc this spam thing is becoming annoying, make people dont even try to learn how to play, and  the newbies trying to get Nova only bc she can nuke the room at a single press 4, without any kind of effort, doesnt help the gameplay either, and make all other frames just cosmetic. 

But thank god not all Novas out there are spammers, some are very good team players, and these should be praised.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

 

I'm all for the nerf bat, don't get me wrong, nova needs one desperately. So does Pull as of recently, honestly... But I like the idea that tough powers wouldn't be spammable. it wouldn't eliminate nerfs unless you want 3 minute cooldowns. but it's a step in the right direction for sure.

 

 

This doesn't mean that abilities will remain the same forever and never again to be changed/tweaked. It's just a way to keep that to a minimal and rational amount, while achieving and tweaking the general frame balance not by constantly trying to compensate powers (which imo, it's practically impossible to achieve)

[BoompigXD]

I'm all for the nerf bat, don't get me wrong, nova needs one desperately. So does Pull as of recently, honestly... But I like the idea that tough powers wouldn't be spammable. it wouldn't eliminate nerfs unless you want 3 minute cooldowns. but it's a step in the right direction for sure.

WAT

 

Pull isn't as powerful as Nova's, yeah it can do serious damage at LOWER levels but at higher levels it won't do a lot other than Ragdoll, as it only does 300 damage MAXED OUT.

[LukeAura]

I think the OP have some point here, when Nova was released it happen the same, now comes Necro, the same happen again, nerf arent health for any game, still think Nova need a fix, bc this spam thing is becoming annoying, make people dont even try to learn how to play, and  the newbies trying to get Nova only bc she can nuke the room at a single press 4, without any kind of effort, doesnt help the gameplay either, and make all other frames just cosmetic. 

But thank god not all Novas out there are spammers, some are very good team players, and these should be praised.

As a Nova player I use Drop as much as I can over Prime. Much more satisfying for me actually. 

On topic though, the problem with this is it'll take awhile to get all the appropriate times right, and even then it's an artificial fix. it'll give the illusion of balance. Too many abilities are useless too often, such as: most of Embers, Silence, Super jump, bounce, overload. No matter how spammable an ability is over another, if it sucks, it won't help.  

Conversely, no matter how scarcely you can use an ability because of its sheer power it's still going to be an overpowered ability you will be waiting to use, more often than not, over relying on something else.

If we had more variety in our skills per frame this idea might trend towards viability, even if we can only use any four at a time still. I'll give it that. As of now though, it won't balance anything.     

[Meatuchu]

BoompigXD, on 12 Sept 2013 - 7:47 PM, said:

WAT

Pull isn't as powerful as Nova's, yeah it can do serious damage at LOWER levels but at higher levels it won't do a lot other than Ragdoll, as it only does 300 damage MAXED OUT.

300 armor ignoring damage for everything in front of you, even through walls, with a near instant cast and no target limit isn't OP? I can cast it 4 times and do 1200 damage to a group of 20 enemies each through a wall. and you failed to take Focus into account. 390 per pull. 390*4 = 1560, which isn't bad, even for the standards of an ultimate. Note that this is unaffected by any resistances, unlike most ultimates which are ineffective versus certain factions.

I'm not saying it needs to be destroyed, but for 25 energy a pop, 300 guaranteed damage is ridiculous compared to any other 1st power. Nobody else can do that much damage for that cheap.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Meatuchu

[r3dzer0]

Apologizing in advance. My phone doesn't like writing on these foeums but I'm at work. I'll try to remain neutral on this subject and attack it from both ends. Cooldowns are very viable but what people will tell you and its been mentioned is that people will still wait for their room clearer instead of using some weak ability. This will never change. Although the majority of complaints regarding frost globe nova prime vaub bastille are based around defense and survival missions. This is the wrong way to balance or nerf frames. A system that punishes you for spamming skills could possibly be a solution. The other one is to rework the system so they can't use their special skill till they've filled up a gauge that allows them to do it (think street fighter) but that would eventually piss people off again. I shall continue to ponder this however a look at thyparis solar power system may have the answers me may need

[r3dzer0]

Ash does straight damage with his 1 and can crit. Can also hit two possible targets dor max damage of 2600 damage

[Meatuchu]

Ash does straight damage with his 1 and can crit. Can also hit two possible targets dor max damage of 2600 damage

True, and ash's shuriken does surprise me with its damage, but that's to only one or two targets. I've cleared rooms on 60+ level missions and I don't even have max focus, or any energy mods other than energy siphon.

[Relish]

Nerfs are good for the game in the long run, they make it so the game isn't impossible for a new player to have fun. Cooldowns are a bad idea for this game since it slows down the flow, CD's work in wow and league since combat is infrequent, but in warframe you're going to be fighting constantly till the end of the mission.

[SanityRobot]

So then cooldowns can be just as unbalanced as the damage numbers?

 

No thanks.

[SanityRobot]

Also, stop advertising your crappy suggestion in every thread.

[syle]

nope

don't like

cooldowns are S#&$

 

however I would like to see better indicator when the power is in use - some type of a bar or better graphics on the spells

[Walkampf]

I think, the most efficent way of getting Charackters, in this case the Warframes, balanced is:

Ignoring the forums

 

Usually, the average forum poster has no idea of how balancing works.

They played a maybe a dozen of other games and suddenly they think they know what they are talking about.

 

Most importantly, most of those guys don't even try to think of the reason, why a system like having no cooldowns, is being used.

These people simply assume they are soooooo much smarter than the Devs, that only they were able to think of those "clever solutions, without any downsides".

 

Those people have usually no idea how those issues are discussed and handled in a specific company.

 

-They don't know what the actual reason are.

-They don't try to think what those reasons are and thus don't at least try to understand the reason behind a decision.

-They don't  try to understand the downsides of their own ideas.

 

 

Here is a good example for the third point:

Balance through cooldowns, not nerfs:  Suddenly, arises the possibility of balancing frames and abilities without needing to steal their godly might. And also, overwhelmingly destructive abilities and powers don't need to be scrapped or instantly discarded anymore. It also becomes a lot easier to achieve balance among the frames.... maybe XX's uber is far more devastating then YY's, but we can make YY's cooldown shorter. And thus, we can obliterate the concept of NERF from the face of this game too.

What the writer didn't consider is,
this is a nerf.

Being not allowed to use a skill literally when you want to reduces the skills worth and thus is nerfing it.

 

For example, that a direct damage Skill, like Volts Shock.

If it deals 150 damage and i think you can use it roughly every 0.5 seconds, limited through the animation.

So, i guess this is what the writer is thinking of, when he says there are no cooldowns.

 

Anyway, this will result in roughly 300 dps.

 

Now let's assume this skill whould be classified as an unimportant skill and thus get a

 

negligible cooldown
 

of 1 second.

 

Now your dps is down to 150.

 

You effectivly cut the skills damage in half. If this isn't a nerf, then what is?

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

A bit weird when you suggest something you yourself don't follow, i would hardly call this ignoring the forums :P

 

I also don't know how can you claim to know you have the true way to balance the game, and that your understandings of games surpass all others..... but by all means, if you have any ideas or constructive feedback, please share it with us. If you don't, just follow your own advice.

 

You also don't seem to grasp the concept of nerfing the powers, since it's tied to an ability/power strength and mechanics.... not it's use delay (or energy consumption if you will). Also, you are forgetting that there's an energy system....

 

In any case, it's just an idea about how to try to make the game better, more balanced... and to have another way out instead of just kill amazing powers and ending up with a game of almost every frame being the same thing. I don't claim it doesn't have downsides or that it would be perfect, i just think it could help... that's why it's called an idea and feeback.

 

Again, if you have anything constructive to add, fire away... i will welcome any and all constructive ideas

[r3dzer0]

I think thypari's solar system was actually a fairly balanced system.  It composed itself of energy, stacking cd, and regen( so no orbs on the ground)  The idea was that you could spam your skills, however repeatedly doing so would inhibit your ability to use them later.  thus it added a cd for skills, but also allowed you to spam.  seems like the best of both worlds.

 

For those that are just saying flat out  no, the idea is that there needs to be something that slows down skill usage in defense( though once again, defense should not be the standard against which we compare all things) because lower level players feel robbed of a chance to prove their mettle.  I agree and disagree with this however because 1, we shouldn't care how things are dealt with, we're a team and not a competing group of individuals all vying for the top spot on our broken leaderboards, and 2 each frame has something that they excel at. 

 

With Defense being the standard of all things balance wise, stuff like what happened to Bastille happens. outside of defense bastille isn't nearly over powered. same goes for nova's M prime.

 

CDs were implemented once, and it just caused players to slow down their pace to a snails crawl.  DE allowed spamming to speed it up with an energy system. now we're fast like cheetahs, we need middle ground and i think taking both extremes and combining them together is probably the best idea.

 

@walkampf

I believe the idea is that not every ability would have a cd as long as the ultimate.  not even global cooldowns are mentioned for all skills.  if its a small spammable skill like shock then let it remain spammable.  the idea is that ultimates, which break gameplay during certain modes >.> are spammable at the moment. not that shock is. example.  you can spam shock as much as you want, but i can spam rhino's stomp as much as i want with little to no penalty other than i have to go pick up orbs.

[Phoenix86]

And who will choose the "right numbers" ?

Naa cooldowns will bring more problems than solutions (personalized cooldowns ever more)

[LukeAura]

 

For those that are just saying flat out  no, the idea is that there needs to be something that slows down skill usage in defense( though once again, defense should not be the standard against which we compare all things) because lower level players feel robbed of a chance to prove their mettle.  I agree and disagree with this however because 1, we shouldn't care how things are dealt with, we're a team and not a competing group of individuals all vying for the top spot on our broken leaderboards, and 2 each frame has something that they excel at. 

 

With Defense being the standard of all things balance wise, stuff like what happened to Bastille happens. outside of defense bastille isn't nearly over powered. same goes for nova's M prime.

 

Perhaps that's an issue with the size of the warframe community and the player matching system. Low mastery players should be set up with low mastery players. But the warframe community just isn't big enough yet to support that.  

And bastille is pretty overpowered everywhere, mostly because Vauban can chuck it wherever he wants one without getting out of cover as long as he knows where his enemies are. 

[Zakalwe]

Two ways to balance Ultimate powers:

1. Nerf them and let them be spammed often

2. Make them all God Tier and only let them be used every now and then.

De should have taken the second route from the start. We have 3 other powers we can spam to hek, and it keeps the game power based.

 

They could have even added 4 powers and fifth ultimate.

 

To prevent people waiting for their ulti's to charge before progressing, they could have easily tied Ultimate charging in with player interaction, ie: killing/affecting enemies, or even collecting a different colour orb, there are dozens and dozens of ways they could have done this.

Then there would be no need to worry about OP Ultis, in fact we could celebrate them a little more.