Suggestion about raids

[AntonioKr123]

So, i herd raids are coming back in the game so i was thinking that i can give some advice on how i think DE would be able to make them better.
1. have different raids every week, by this i mean something like weekly arbitrations that have more missions but can be done multiple times, like say 5 missions each with a specific debuff and you cant swap frames between missions.

2. i think DE should try punishing the meta, by this i mean if people are spamming warframes that can kill enemies with AoE abilities faster than you can blink (saryn), enable friendly fire, that way people cant use the abilities unless they actually think, if people spam Energy vampire Trinity, make Energy vampire heal the enemies with allowed over heal of 2000 HP, what i am trying to say is don't allow people using a specific frame or mod that just makes it easy to pass the raids

3. make specific weapons and a warframe that can ONLY be farmed in raids, not tradable, not in the market, just raids.

those are all my ideas, of course these are just ideas and if DE doesn't do them or does take these ideas nothing will change, i think DE is an amazing company but just the lack of content especially for the veterans is kinda bad for the game it self.

[peterc3]

11 minutes ago, AntonioKr123 said:

3. make specific weapons and a warframe that can ONLY be farmed in raids, not tradable, not in the market, just raids.

This would make me, and I would imagine others, straight up leave the game and wouldn't likely appeal to potential new players.

[xXRampantXx]

28 minutes ago, AntonioKr123 said:

1. have different raids every week, by this i mean something like weekly arbitrations that have more missions but can be done multiple times, like say 5 missions each with a specific debuff and you cant swap frames between missions.

Have nothing against this, but I doubt there'll actually be enough raids to make this worth-while.

28 minutes ago, AntonioKr123 said:

2. i think DE should try punishing the meta, by this i mean if people are spamming warframes that can kill enemies with AoE abilities faster than you can blink (saryn), enable friendly fire, that way people cant use the abilities unless they actually think, if people spam Energy vampire Trinity, make Energy vampire heal the enemies with allowed over heal of 2000 HP, what i am trying to say is don't allow people using a specific frame or mod that just makes it easy to pass the raids

I have nothing against punishing the meta (or rather, the overuse of certain abilities) in some way, but given the amount of damage players can do in a single power activation, friendly-fire is not a good way to do it.

28 minutes ago, AntonioKr123 said:

3. make specific weapons and a warframe that can ONLY be farmed in raids, not tradable, not in the market, just raids.

No.

Edited January 8, 2019 by xXRampantXx

[WhiteMarker]

16 minutes ago, AntonioKr123 said:

2. i think DE should try punishing the meta, by this i mean if people are spamming warframes that can kill enemies with AoE abilities faster than you can blink (saryn), enable friendly fire, that way people cant use the abilities unless they actually think, if people spam Energy vampire Trinity, make Energy vampire heal the enemies with allowed over heal of 2000 HP, what i am trying to say is don't allow people using a specific frame or mod that just makes it easy to pass the raids

You simply don't know what "meta" stands for.
It is the most effective tactic available. This means, if you remove Saryn by adding friendly fire, she gets removed from the meta, and something else becomes meta.
Even if we all could only use Excalibur, Braton, Lato and Skana, there would be a meta. It would be these exact 4 items, because of the definition.
You can't remove the meta, because that's the whole idea about it...

[AntonioKr123]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

This would make me, and I would imagine others, straight up leave the game and wouldn't likely appeal to potential new players.

i agree that it will not appeal to new players but still, veterans deserve to have something as well

 

1 hour ago, xXRampantXx said:

No.

why?

 

1 hour ago, WhiteMarker said:

You simply don't know what "meta" stands for.
It is the most effective tactic available. This means, if you remove Saryn by adding friendly fire, she gets removed from the meta, and something else becomes meta.
Even if we all could only use Excalibur, Braton, Lato and Skana, there would be a meta. It would be these exact 4 items, because of the definition.
You can't remove the meta, because that's the whole idea about it...

true, but my point is if something is beeing overused, try counter it

 

[peterc3]

37 minutes ago, AntonioKr123 said:

veterans deserve to have something as well

Been playing since 2013. You speak for yourself only.

[Loza03]

17 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

2. i think DE should try punishing the meta, by this i mean if people are spamming warframes that can kill enemies with AoE abilities faster than you can blink (saryn), enable friendly fire, that way people cant use the abilities unless they actually think, if people spam Energy vampire Trinity, make Energy vampire heal the enemies with allowed over heal of 2000 HP, what i am trying to say is don't allow people using a specific frame or mod that just makes it easy to pass the raids

If this was to be implemented, it'd have to be done very carefully, and used more as a 'punishing using the meta in a certain way' rather than an arbitrary 'You used this frame, you get punished.' Because it is just poor design to punish somebody for using something, particularly in a game about variety.

I'd probably extend the friendly fire only to objectives, and certain ones at that. I'd also implement multiple key areas, linked via numerous paths so enemies can enter areas from a wide variety of different angles and not clump up as much. This'd limit meta picks by reducing their overall effectiveness.

An example might be some kind of fight in a facility you're hijacking to produce something you need. There's three objectives that need to be guarded - one of which is the engine room, a small area. It's described as exceedingly delicate so wide-ranging damage abilities will deal 25% of their damage to it (which in WF, is still an awful lot.) Another is the actual fabrication area which is like a normal defence area except with a lot of entrances and another is a communications hub that acts as a mini-interception mission where you need to defend a couple of towers lest you fail the mission due to alerting a fleet or something. These three pose totally different combat challenges, and subsequently different frames will be 'Meta' for them. In addition, enemies spawn in the corridors from areas littered throughout the area, as well as from a large hanger bay where raid-exclusive elite troops that are far more durable than normal enemies get flown in at irregular intervals. Holding this area is non-essential, but failing to do so means everything gets harder for everyone since you'll get jumped suddenly by extremely beefy troops that can power through your defences more easily. The number of enemies and the number of locations they'll target at any one time scales with the number of players.

See? This is a more organic way of preventing the current meta easily steamrolling it. Each part of the mission, run simultaneously, requires different tactics, and different options are available. The Fabrication room has the current meta but the engine room encourages CC and gunplay and frames that support it, the Communication area requires speed and/or deployable CC and the Elite troops are best dealt with in the engine room ASAP, which favours burst damage over AoE. It also makes for more interesting fights due to each area having several combat focuses.

[xXRampantXx]

15 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

why?

To some degree for the same reason @peterc3, and in response to what you said to him:

15 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

i agree that it will not appeal to new players but still, veterans deserve to have something as well

Again, as @peterc3 said, speak for yourself. I have played since early U7, as a veteran, this is not the kind of thing I want. 

There's a lot more to my actual reason for disliking this, but I don't currently have the time or inclination to go into it, as it would result in a pretty huge wall of text.

[Dabnician]

18 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

1. have different raids every week, by this i mean something like weekly arbitrations that have more missions but can be done multiple times, like say 5 missions each with a specific debuff and you cant swap frames between missions.

cool

18 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

2. i think DE should try punishing the meta, by this i mean if people are spamming warframes that can kill enemies with AoE abilities faster than you can blink (saryn), enable friendly fire, that way people cant use the abilities unless they actually think, if people spam Energy vampire Trinity, make Energy vampire heal the enemies with allowed over heal of 2000 HP, what i am trying to say is don't allow people using a specific frame or mod that just makes it easy to pass the raids

I really wish you all would stop trying to punish other people from playing the game as it is, the nerfs have got to stop

 

18 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

3. make specific weapons and a warframe that can ONLY be farmed in raids, not tradable, not in the market, just raids.

Oh god no, not only do you not understand how this would piss players off, this would also cut off potential revenue from the loss of said sale. this is a lose-lose situation

16 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

true, but my point is if something is beeing overused, try counter it

Its not overused if that's all that works, it means that there is a flaw in the system and players are finding the path of least resistance, Are you going in to spy missions with Vauban? Or do you use Ash/Loki/Ivarna/Limbo?

 

Instead of focusing on "nerf this rawr its op" you should be looking for "buff that, rawr its underused".

 

I would LOVE to use vauban, the fact that i built my non prime vauban by watching those missions pop up and completing them.... was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY... more satisfying that actually using vauban... first thought was ...wth is this... this warframe's problem? he seriously needs a buff... I could have however singled out any one of my teammates and cried they were using a OP warframe but that was not the case. I could say "oh its unfair limbo & gara can block an unlimited number of enemies but im only able to block 10, nerf them" but thats stupid.

Stop asking for nerfs, if you feel something is OP then you need to find something that needs to be buffed. I hate all this "oh but the player power creep" so what.. they can add more enemies that have more hp and do the same crap as now

18 hours ago, AntonioKr123 said:

the lack of content especially for the veterans is kinda bad for the game it self.

Ive been here since 2013 you DO NOT speak for me

Edited January 9, 2019 by Dabnician

[toxicitzi]

49 minutes ago, xXRampantXx said:

To some degree for the same reason @peterc3, and in response to what you said to him:

Again, as @peterc3 said, speak for yourself. I have played since early U7, as a veteran, this is not the kind of thing I want. 

There's a lot more to my actual reason for disliking this, but I don't currently have the time or inclination to go into it, as it would result in a pretty huge wall of text.

Are you judging raids for this game Only as DE implemented them initially, or as a concept that can be put through drastic changes and improvements? because I'd like to see raiding done well in this, that is why the missions were taken out isn't it?

 

As for the suggestions, I think it's too soon to call out how frequently these should be available, what meta will break it assuming DE will not readjust it, those 2 criteria depend on how challenging they can be if they're meant for highly organized squads, which, is what I hope for. As well as some Actual New Missions, None of that Sortie/Arbitration stuff please.

For rewards/loot from them? that too can classify in first thinking about, How raids will be made to be, because the rewards in short should be an extension of the effort you and/or others put into these mission types.

Edited January 9, 2019 by toxicitzi

[xXRampantXx]

Just now, toxicitzi said:

Are you judging raids for this game Only as DE implemented them initially, or as a concept that can be put through drastic changes and improvements? because I'd like to see raiding done well, as a concept.

 

As for the suggestions, I think it's too soon to call out how frequently these should be available, what meta will break it assuming DE will not readjust it, those 2 criteria depend on how challenging they can be if they're meant for highly organized squads, which, is what I hope for. As well as some Actual New Missions, None of that Sortie/Arbitration stuff please.

For rewards/loot from them? that too can classify in first thinking about, How raids will be made to be, because the rewards in short should be an extension of the effort you and/or others put into these mission types.

Never actually had the chance to try Warframe's raids, so I'm judging them by the general idea.  Personally, I've never much liked the idea of raids as they exist in most games, but at this point I'm resigned to the fact that they'll be a thing.  Personally, I always though that the Arcane Enhancements were the perfect reward for the raids.  Excellent items that improved the equipment of those who earned them, but not so necessary that more casual players were missing out on any important content if they didn't get them.

[toxicitzi]

8 minutes ago, xXRampantXx said:

Never actually had the chance to try Warframe's raids, so I'm judging them by the general idea.  Personally, I've never much liked the idea of raids as they exist in most games, but at this point I'm resigned to the fact that they'll be a thing.  Personally, I always though that the Arcane Enhancements were the perfect reward for the raids.  Excellent items that improved the equipment of those who earned them, but not so necessary that more casual players were missing out on any important content if they didn't get them.

It's kind of a reverse to what I'm seeing, I'm seeing raiding as content for players that want to see more from the game, content that is there to really test the limits of the game and the capabilities of the players, in ways more interesting than scaling up the numbers / armor of basic enemies that we see everyday in the game.

 

If they can take a mission like Ambulas Reborn and make it into a big mission, meant for 8 players similar to how raids used to be, if they can create something like that boss fight, that's what I think an ideal beginning for raiding content would be for Warframe.

The reason I wanna throw Ambulas Reborn here as my example of what I mean is because I believe it's an excellent boss mission, Ambulas Reborn has a lot of things going on in it and while I can't say I like it all in its entirety because of the dropship aiming or aoe are an absolute nightmare to dodge, but not impossible thanks to the operator and the void, it's still mostly great and I love especially when the Scrambus/Combas security comes out halfway through the mission, not to mention, the artillery cannon, it does make it look like the scales are raised when the enemy throws more and more at you, getting ever more desperate to stop you and when the game makes you feel that by throwing challenges that gradually increase.

Edited January 9, 2019 by toxicitzi

[xXRampantXx]

4 hours ago, toxicitzi said:

It's kind of a reverse to what I'm seeing, I'm seeing raiding as content for players that want to see more from the game, content that is there to really test the limits of the game and the capabilities of the players, in ways more interesting than scaling up the numbers / armor of basic enemies that we see everyday in the game.

I don't really see raids as "more content" unless you just mean "more of the same", just with level-scaling pumped up beyond logical extremes.  But at this point we're just arguing personal preference, neither of us will be convinced by the other, and really neither of us should, be, differences in opinion make things more interesting.

4 hours ago, toxicitzi said:

The reason I wanna throw Ambulas Reborn here as my example of what I mean is because I believe it's an excellent boss mission, Ambulas Reborn has a lot of things going on in it and while I can't say I like it all in its entirety because of the dropship aiming or aoe are an absolute nightmare to dodge, but not impossible thanks to the operator and the void, it's still mostly great and I love especially when the Scrambus/Combas security comes out halfway through the mission, not to mention, the artillery cannon, it does make it look like the scales are raised when the enemy throws more and more at you, getting ever more desperate to stop you and when the game makes you feel that by throwing challenges that gradually increase.

And here is the first thing I really agree with you on; contrary to everyone I know, I also like the Ambulas Reborn bossfight, although personally Ihave no real issue with the bombardment and AOE, even when soloing. 

I don't necessarily have anything against raids, I just don't want core gameplay (which I consider weapons to be, and Arcanes not to be) locked behind them.  Warframe is a game that appeals to very large casual and solo communities (including many of it's veterans) that will probably won't be interested in/capable of taking part in raids, and locking content behind them will keep it out of reach of these players.

Also, a more subjective issue I only just thought of, if the only (or even main) reward for a raid is a weapon, (which you have no reason to obtain duplicates of), there will be no replay value for the raid once you have it.

[toxicitzi]

7 hours ago, xXRampantXx said:

I don't really see raids as "more content" unless you just mean "more of the same", just with level-scaling pumped up beyond logical extremes.  But at this point we're just arguing personal preference, neither of us will be convinced by the other, and really neither of us should, be, differences in opinion make things more interesting.

No.. That's not at all what I meant, I said new missions, by that I mean dedicated content towards raiding with releases.

If I ever see anymore Sortie/Arbitration type "Difficulty", I think I'm gonna puke, we already have Sorties v1.0 and Arbitrations, or in other words, Sorties v2.0. We don't need anymore of this S#&$, it's bad enough that these things are just shamefully reusing the exact same missions from the Star chart and bumping up the missions' enemy levels..

7 hours ago, xXRampantXx said:

And here is the first thing I really agree with you on; contrary to everyone I know, I also like the Ambulas Reborn bossfight, although personally Ihave no real issue with the bombardment and AOE, even when soloing.

That's why I used that example specifically, because I'm talking about the boss fight itself being something new in the game, not the Sortie variant, that one is plagued by the issues of power creeping and poor enemy armor scaling that the game has.

The normal boss fight as I see it is a really small glimpse on what the developers could be adding more into the game. It's the most challenging boss in the Star chart next to Kela de Thaym, which makes sense, seeing how that boss is the next one in the Star chart.

 

7 hours ago, xXRampantXx said:

I don't necessarily have anything against raids, I just don't want core gameplay (which I consider weapons to be, and Arcanes not to be) locked behind them.  Warframe is a game that appeals to very large casual and solo communities (including many of it's veterans) that will probably won't be interested in/capable of taking part in raids, and locking content behind them will keep it out of reach of these players.

Also, a more subjective issue I only just thought of, if the only (or even main) reward for a raid is a weapon, (which you have no reason to obtain duplicates of), there will be no replay value for the raid once you have it.

I agree here in that, the way the old model was thought wasn't great. One issue with it is that it didn't understand how other games conceived rewards and their purpose, with games like WoW, not even that though, just any MMORPG in general, the idea of this is that Raids are ongoing and don't just abruptly end at 1 boss fight per Raid, even something as old as Lineage 2 had this, it's something you clear continuously as a group effort and the way it's made makes it prevalent and most efficiently cleared by Clans/Guilds.

 

In other words, the problem I saw in the old model is that, they didn't use the idea of rewards in there specifically to help clear the raid content further as a general rule of thumb and building the blocks from a system like that, meaning raids should usually come up in more than 1 bosses to fulfill that criteria. Without that, you have 1 boss you kill for rewards and, you get the rewards and then you're done, there's nothing else after that 1 boss to use that for. That's not a system.

Edited January 10, 2019 by toxicitzi