Needs a Vote to kick feature Bad

[Softballbryan]

Went into ESO last night... fairly new to the mode... had a Khora frame.. player procceds to tell us Limbo and Khora shouldn’t be here and left the squad... I don’t want them having the ability to kick me.. the host migration situation is bad enough. 

[robbybe01234]

These are some questions I consider when discussing this topic.

Just how easy do you think it would be to implement this?  With the current issues of host migration and matchmaking, would this exponentially complicate pairing, or would there be no increased stress for de servers?

When you see a person leech or think they are leeching, does it prevent mission completion or prevent you from doing you, in a measurable way? Is it just making you feel upset at the lack of fairness?

What do you want public matches to be?

Is it fair to assume that players will approach public queuing in a more tense manner with a kick system implemented?

 

Not that I'm demanding answers but they are questions I think can start to dig in to find more appropriate solutions without having to sacrifice the concept of no pressure instant queue missions.

Edited January 25, 2019 by robbybe01234

[(PSN)OriginalSilthos]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

We already have examples of vote kick options being abused in other MMOs

Whats games have you played where you have been repeatedly kicked. I also have played lots of mmos rarely ever been kicked. If you've been kicked so much did it ever occur that you were doing something wrong. Did you ask. I still play 2 mmos right now i cant even remember the last time i was kicked from any group or even voted to kick someone  else. Had a tank drop due to some of the dps not doing enough damage the other day  but vote to kick abuse im not seeing that. 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)OriginalSilthos said:

Whats games have you played where you have been repeatedly kicked. I also have played lots of mmos rarely ever been kicked. If you've been kicked so much did it ever occur that you were doing something wrong. Did you ask. I still play 2 mmos right now i cant even remember the last time i was kicked from any group or even voted to kick someone  else. Had a tank drop due to some of the dps not doing enough damage the other day  but vote to kick abuse im not seeing that. 

So now you read we already have examples as I've been repeatedly been kicked.  

I don't know why I even bothered.....

[BL4CKN0ISE]

Just now, (PS4)OriginalSilthos said:

Whats games have you played where you have been repeatedly kicked. I also have played lots of mmos rarely ever been kicked. If you've been kicked so much did it ever occur that you were doing something wrong. Did you ask. I still play 2 mmos right now i cant even remember the last time i was kicked from any group or even voted to kick someone  else. Had a tank drop due to some of the dps not doing enough damage the other day  but vote to kick abuse im not seeing that. 

It's never happened to me, but me and my friends have done it to a lot of other players in GTA V and Left 4 Dead 2. The problem isn't the amount of people who would be kicked for no reason IMO. The problem is the amount of people who would be down to abuse it. I'm absolutely one of those players who would abuse it just for the convenience. I just think leeching is much more harmless than allowing players to kick other players for no reason other than "my friend just got on and I need you(random) to leave".

[(PSN)OriginalSilthos]

26 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

These are some questions I consider when discussing this topic.

I agree match making is completely crazy right now you get thrown into missions that are already completed sometimes or instantly kicked from you loading in while the group is extracting. 

As far as the leeching goes there getting the full reward and sometimes more from farming on the side while you complete the mission. Yes i can still complete the mission but sometimes its more than 1 person and because hes in group now i have to kill even more mobs and it takes up even more time. 

Absolutely they will know that not contributing would mean a possibility if getting removed 

[robbybe01234]

1 hour ago, (PS4)OriginalSilthos said:

I agree match making is completely crazy right now you get thrown into missions that are already completed sometimes or instantly kicked from you loading in while the group is extracting. 

As far as the leeching goes there getting the full reward and sometimes more from farming on the side while you complete the mission. Yes i can still complete the mission but sometimes its more than 1 person and because hes in group now i have to kill even more mobs and it takes up even more time. 

Absolutely they will know that not contributing would mean a possibility if getting removed 

See that is the point I’m getting at...”not contributing”.  I can’t see this being defined and identified properly in pub mission for a kick feature to be introduced to solve it.  From day to day a persons judgment of contribution could change, from mission type to mission type it changes, from frame to frame capability of contribution changes.  I think of leeching as an acceptable but unfortunate consequence of the open system as it is.  By leeching I specifically mean a clearly obvious occurrence of that dude just standing there. 

The mmo comparison has been multiple times and my thought is this.  Speaking from experience with ff14 and GW2.  I can’t really compare those dungeon environments to pub warframe missions.  When you queue into a dungeon, that environment is the same every time, with enemies that have set placement, with members that have clearly defined roles(less so in gw2 due to lack of trinity), with rooms that have clearly defined solutions and patterns.  Those instances are designed so that each member HAS to contribute.  A kick feature is understandable here.  I don’t see pub queue in warframe warranting the same feature.  

For other solutions, maybe create new missions that require players to be in certain areas or they die.  Maybe the afk timer will also cut down affinity range not only removing mission rewards but xp progression. Now this leecher isn’t running around getting mats or mission end rewards or xp.  Enough penalties should weed out this problem more naturally while not needing to bounce clients around.  Something like that should be low impact to implement.  

Edited January 25, 2019 by robbybe01234
Grammar

[(XBOX)MindedThunder81]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Ok.  No.

At least try to form a proper rebuttal when opposed with an actual thought out idea/Explanation. If you can't or are not willing to do so, please don't use the forums as they are meant for constructive conversation.

[(PSN)OriginalSilthos]

10 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

create new missions that require players to be in certain areas or they die.  Maybe the afk timer will also cut down affinity range not only removing mission rewards but xp progression. Now this leecher isn’t running around getting mats or mission end rewards or xp.  Enough penalties should weed out this problem more naturally 

Great feedback. Some others made suggestions similar and any would be amazing and probably quell alot of the problem. Even small changes like no fishing or mining on bounties could have a positive change.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

At least try to form a proper rebuttal when opposed with an actual thought out idea/Explanation. If you can't or are not willing to do so, please don't use the forums as they are meant for constructive conversation.

I find it amusing that you refer to using the forums for discussion.  If you practiced what you preached by using the search function here, you'd already have a pretty good idea why someone would reply with a no instead of talking in the exact same same circles as those who brought it up before you.

 

You might like repeating yourself, and that's fine.  The answer is still no, with the exact reasoning as stated the dozens of other times it's been addressed.

Edited January 25, 2019 by (XB1)Thy Divinity

[MagPrime]

Herp derp 

Edited January 25, 2019 by MagPrime

[(XBOX)MindedThunder81]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

I find it amusing that you refer to using the forums for discussion.  If you practiced what you preached by using the search function here, you'd already have a pretty good idea why someone would reply with a no instead of talking in the exact same same circles as those who brought it up before you.

 

You might like repeating yourself, and that's fine.  The answer is still no, with the exact reasoning as stated the dozens of other times it's been addressed.

Just because the previous answers have been "No" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. 

Quite frankly, I find it very disenchanting that the literal only arguments against a votekick are that it could be abused by people who don't like certain frames, or that so many other games that have votekicks have problems with the system being abused - although that claim is entirely unsupported in reality.

The pro's outweigh the con's and it's as simple as that.

Leeches should not be allowed to leech and get all the rewards that actual players get. Go join a group in Recruiting and tell them you'll be leeching the entire game and see if you still get to go.

With the parameters laid out in my previous post it would be almost impossible to abuse the system, but your lack of attention or inability to comprehend that doesn't change the fact that it would be a good thing.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

Just because the previous answers have been "No" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. 

Quite frankly, I find it very disenchanting that the literal only arguments against a votekick are that it could be abused by people who don't like certain frames, or that so many other games that have votekicks have problems with the system being abused - although that claim is entirely unsupported in reality.

The pro's outweigh the con's and it's as simple as that.

Leeches should not be allowed to leech and get all the rewards that actual players get. Go join a group in Recruiting and tell them you'll be leeching the entire game and see if you still get to go.

With the parameters laid out in my previous post it would be almost impossible to abuse the system, but your lack of attention or inability to comprehend that doesn't change the fact that it would be a good thing.

Are you being willfully dense or is this just a typical Friday for you?  There is no assumption with vote kick abuse.  What part of "we already have examples" do you not understand?  "Unsupported in reality", get serious.

I don't know what you pro vote kick guys are on, but pass it around because that's some pretty potent product.

[MagPrime]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Are you being willfully dense or is this just a typical Friday for you?  There is no assumption with vote kick abuse.  What part of "we already have examples" do you not understand?  "Unsupported in reality", get serious.

I don't know what you pro vote kick guys are on, but pass it around because that's some pretty potent product.

I could use a hit of it. 

[(XBOX)MindedThunder81]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

There is no assumption with vote kick abuse.  What part of "we already have examples" do you not understand?  "Unsupported in reality", get serious.

Get serious and send legitimate proof to back up your assumption that all votekick features are unreasonably abused to a greater extent than their benefits. Please, I'll be waiting. 

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

Get serious and send legitimate proof to back up your assumption that all votekick features are unreasonably abused to a greater extent than their benefits. Please, I'll be waiting. 

That's an unreasonable demand and you know it. 

The only way any proof can be provided is by contacting all games with such a feature and requesting their data on its usage, then compiling a chart, which any reasonable person would know that would never happen.

 

[(PSN)OriginalSilthos]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

I don't know what you pro vote kick guys are on, but pass it around because that's some pretty potent product.

No disrespect but whats up with people like you who diagree with people and come to throw stones. As stated above.

1 hour ago, robbybe01234 said:

 When you queue into a dungeon, that environment is the same every time, with enemies that have set placement, with members that have clearly defined roles(less so in gw2 due to lack of trinity), with rooms that have clearly defined solutions and patterns.  Those instances are designed so that each member HAS to contribute.  A kick feature is understandable here.  I don’t see pub queue in warframe warranting the same feature.

Warframes a but different and you cant really compare that system. On those same games people that are claiming is tons of vote to kick abuse ive pretty much have seen none. I dont even remember the last time i was kicked from any party and i play multiple games with the feature. Now im not saying its the perfect fix to the solution but their was many great ideas in this thread that can be used to help fix alot of the problem

Edited January 25, 2019 by (PS4)OriginalSilthos

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

Get serious and send legitimate proof to back up your assumption that all votekick features are unreasonably abused to a greater extent than their benefits. Please, I'll be waiting. 

Ok, let's perform a social experiment.  Google vote kick abuse and see for yourself on the first page how many games pop up.  Come back and tell us how those communities are are enjoying the vote kick option.

In starting to grow tired of watching you make yourself look silly.  

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)OriginalSilthos said:

No disrespect but whats up with people like you who diagree with people and come to throw stones. As stated above.

For the 3rd (and final) time, this subject has been glossed over numerous times before. 

Some of us are tired of people rushing the forums and ignoring the search function because they believe that they possess this wildly innovate idea that we've never heard before.  It's been beaten to death and even with clear evidence to refute said people's ideas, they insist that it needs to be discussed, it's the best way, and on and on and on.

All I'm doing is cutting the middleman out and saying no.  Because I've seen this dog and pony show before and I know how it ends.  You guys keep have opinions, fair enough.

 

Mine is still no, nyet, nein, and so forth.

[(XBOX)MindedThunder81]

10 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

That's an unreasonable demand and you know it. 

The only way any proof can be provided is by contacting all games with such a feature and requesting their data on its usage, then compiling a chart, which any reasonable person would know that would never happen.

 

Just because you say that they are abused doesn't mean that they really are. I'd even wager that you're not even talking from actual experience, because if you were, you could give proof.

Look back at my post on Page 4 and tell me how that could possibly be abused, because if you're being open minded and reasonable about this, you won't see a problem with that.

[MagPrime]

Just now, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

Just because you say that they are abused doesn't mean that they really are. I'd even wager that you're not even talking from actual experience, because if you were, you could give proof.

Look back at my post on Page 4 and tell me how that could possibly be abused, because if you're being open minded and reasonable about this, you won't see a problem with that.

Wow, you must be fun at work.  Is everyone wrong but you when something fails?

Sure, I could give proof, if I had a magic crystal ball that told me someone would demand evidence of someone abusing a kick feature.  I have tons of experience of being kicked from bringing the wrong character type to a random group, or being kicked because I wouldn't bully another player, because I happened to be dropped into a group of people who wanted to make room for their friend, half way through a raid. 

But since I deal with mostly reasonable people, I don't have any of that, because a large chunk of gamers are familiar with the trollish ways a kick system has and will be abused. 

[(XBOX)MindedThunder81]

16 hours ago, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

Add a Votekick automatically triggered after 2 minutes of inactivity OR after 3 minutes of being more than 300 meters away from the rest of the squad. When kicked, a player is put into a private session and their game is paused, so it doesn't automatically fail them. 

Lets go ahead and give you guys the leniency of not having to bring up proof, so you can quit whining about that.

However, If I'm making that compromise, you'll have to make the compromise of assuming the Warframe playerbase isn't 100% just trolls trying to kick people for laughs.

Tell me how this proposal of a Votekick would be abused if the prompts were automated.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

Lets go ahead and give you guys the leniency of not having to bring up proof, so you can quit whining about that.

However, If I'm making that compromise, you'll have to make the compromise of assuming the Warframe playerbase isn't 100% just trolls trying to kick people for laughs.

Tell me how this proposal of a Votekick would be abused if the prompts were automated.

You're beginning to sound like that orange guy with the funny hands in the White House.

I'm still waiting on what you discovered from Googling vote kick abuse.

[MagPrime]

Just now, (XB1)MindedThunder81 said:

Lets go ahead and give you guys the leniency of not having to bring up proof, so you can quit whining about that.

However, If I'm making that compromise, you'll have to make the compromise of assuming the Warframe playerbase isn't 100% just trolls trying to kick people for laughs.

Tell me how this proposal of a Votekick would be abused if the prompts were automated.

Alrighty.

2 minutes of inactivity resulting in a kick; removes any option of going AFK with the teams blessing.  Devalues any kind of social agreement to let someone leech.  e.g., power leveling, someone had to step away to answer the door, bathroom break, phone call, etc.

3 minutes of being 300 away from objective; Utterly useless in Exterminate and Excavation missions as there is either no defined objective location or multiple locations.  Demolishes any kind of social agreement between teammates of divide and conquer to locate rare materials or scannables.

And let's not forget new players or slow players being stuck with faster players, who would get hit with your O So Glorious Automated System simply for not playing the same as total strangers. 

Sure, the team could opt to not kick the players who trigger the kick option, but that's where the abuse potential steps in.  Player who are told it's acceptable to trigger the system and that they wont be kicked, scouts honor, but then they do get kicked because "lol what a n00b for being so trusting"

There is no perfect system, there is no 100% way to make sure it will not be abused.  And like one of my previous posts said, with how Warframe is, there isn't really a need for one.

The only time I ever saw a need for one was when we had 8 player Raids but we don't have those anymore.  People who want to kick that one random player, it's more for convenience than anything else.  It isn't hard to type /invite <player name>x3, assuming you have a full team and they don't know how to join in on your sessions from the friends list, clan list or alliance list.

There are multiple tools available that negate the need for a kick feature, players should try using them to their full extent before suggesting new and abusable ways to damage the game. 

[(PSN)OriginalSilthos]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Some of us are tired of people rushing the forums and ignoring the search function because they believe that they possess this wildly innovate idea that we've never heard before.  It's been beaten to death and even with clear evidence to refute said people's ideas, they insist that it needs to be discussed, it's the best way, and on and on and on.

If your tired of it. WHY ARE YOU EVEN POSTING HERE. If its something you dont want to discuss keep your negative, sarcasm to yourself. Literally everyone of your post has been like some salty kid having a temper tantrum. Noone ignored the search function, i implied above more posts equals a chance that this thread might been seen and heard. If you dont like peoples opinions stay off the forums. Vote to kick wasnt the only suggestion here and theres no evidence that vote to kick doesnt work or that it does. For every person that says it doesnt work another will say it will. If your opinion is that it wont work i accept that say your peace and move on.