[Warframe Rework Suggestion] Ember: The PHOENIX Rework {Reaction to Devstream #131 Ember Showcase}

[FoxFX]

KEY ISSUES REVIEWED WITH EMBER'S CURRENT KIT

LINK TO REDDIT ARTICLE

• Inconvenient passive requiring Ember to either be damaged by enemies, self-damage herself, or be fortunate enough to use a -Damage Riven of a self-damage weapon to try and abuse the Energy Generation. The design of this passive contradicts the playstyle of a glass-cannon character that [DE] has stated they aimed to make her that way LINK TO THE LAST OFFICIAL EMBER REWORK NOTES AND [DE]'S EXPLANATION TO THESE CHANGES

• HEAT Damage has its restrictions on not being able to stack the damage ticks nor extend its duration. Instead, applying new instances of Heat will simply reset the base duration of 6 seconds. This is mostly due to Heat not only having a damage tick component, but also crowd control elements to it as well.

• A major issue with Ember is how she has three different attack-type abilities and a reliable stun ability. In a similar issue with the current Vauban where all his abilities are practically different forms of CC, practically 1 or 2 of those abilities are mostly used with the current meta of the game. With Ember, [World on Fire] has the same damage potential of an uncharged Fireball, and a more reliable AOE and coverage of Fire Blast. The ability [World on Fire], regardless of how we point out the range reduction gimmick of it, is a press and forget ability; an ability that contradicts [DE]'s design in Warframes today.

 

GOAL OF THIS REWORK SUGGESTION

• Minimizing changes to abilities 1, 2, and 3.

• Creating a new self-support ability for Ember which increases self-survivability and reinforces her Heat abilities as an ultimate

• Creating a passive which offers a unique approach to Heat damage-type's non-scaling restrictions while improving Ember's damage potential in many areas.

 

NEW PASSIVE: FURNACE

All fire continuously grows stronger while near Ember. Ignited enemies 30 meters from Ember have ticks inflicted on them increased by 60% of their previous tick damage.

• [Example, Note: 6 seconds containing 7 ticks] Base Ignite DoT of 400. With Furnace passive, damage per tick goes from 400, 640, 1024, 1638.4, 2621.4, 4194.3, 6710.8. As opposed to a normal Heat proc lasting total of 2800 damage, with Furnace the total damage would be up to 17227. This does not of course take into account Armor scaling.

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DAMAGE NUMBERS BASED ON DIFFERENT PERCENTAGES OF FURNACE PASSIVE (Base Heat Damage 400):

10%:   400, 440, 484, 532, 585, 644, 708 {Total 3793 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

20%:   400, 480, 576, 691, 829, 995, 1194 {Total 5165 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

30%:   400, 520, 676, 878, 1142, 1485, 1930 {Total 7031 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

40%:   400, 560, 784, 1097, 1536, 2151, 3011 {Total 9539 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

50%:   400, 600, 900, 1350, 2025, 3037, 4556 {Total 12868 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

 

ABILITY 1 - FIREBALL

• [Additional change] Fully-charged Fireball burns 50% of enemy Armor.

 

ABILITY 2 - ACCELERANT

• Accelerant resets the duration of bonfires creates from Fireball and Fire Blast within Accelerant's range and increases the radius.

 

ABILITY 3 - FIRE BLAST

• Fire Blast's ring is removed.

• Increasing base damage of Fire Blast's wave.

• The wave from Fire Blast marks enemies for XX seconds. Marked enemies killed will combust into bonfires which deal damage based on XX% of the killed enemy's Health.

 

NEW ABILITY 4 - PYROMANIA [TOGGLE]

Ember becomes one with the fire. Ignites herself with mending flames continuously recovering her Health while active. Attacking and self-tending wounds builds up and stores thermal power for the next Fireball or Fire Blast. In this form, fires never go out.

• Ember maintains a self-health Regeneration of XX Health per second.

• All Heat procs on enemies within 10/12/16/20 meters from Ember have their Ignited status duration constantly reset while toggled on

• Each Hit on enemies adds XX Bonus Heat Damage stack buff

• Each health recovered from Pyromania adds XXX Bonus Heat Damage stack buff

• 10% of the total accumulated Bonus Heat Damage is added separately into weapon attacks from Ember. (Max stack of 1000 Bonus Heat Damage)

• Bonus Heat Damage stacks remain on Ember for XX seconds when toggled off

• The next Fireball or Fire Blast cast consumes all Bonus Heat Damage adding the bonus to the base damage of that activated ability's damage

 

INTENDED PLAYSTYLE FLOW

• Taking advantage of Ember's Furnace passive to maintain ramping damage over time on Ignited enemies as long as you are within range for the passive to kick in

• Use bonfires created from Fireball and Fire Blast to set powerful traps on wandering enemies igniting more prey which will also have their ignited procs ramp up.

• Fireball acts as a very powerful one-target ability burning away half of an enemy's armor. Along with Furnace, you can use Ember's first ability more efficient to take out more dangerous targets

• Accelerant remains as is due to being a semi-convenient stun and debuff skill. The Augment also serves to make Ember more team oriented. The proposed Accelerant effect on bonfires was more of an aesthetic choice to show that Ember has control of all manner of fire around her.

• Fire Blast already acts like a semi-useful Crowd Control ability with the wave's knockdown alone. Adding an effect which primes enemies to become bonfires makes trapping non-Ignited enemies a lot more convenient. A quick combo of Accelerant + Fire Blast + Furnace can make for a useful AOE crowd clearer which should take little time to finish enemies off.

• Pyromaniac serves as a powerful self-sustaining ability for Ember which also builds up Bonus Heat damage which can either be used to consistently apply Heat procs on enemies or unleash powerful nukes using the collected Bonus Heat stacks when casting Fireball or Fire Blast. Coupled with the fact that Pyromaniac maintains Ignited status on enemies while toggled on makes for another useful combination with Furnace.

 

REPLACING FIRE BLAST AUGMENT SUGGESTIONS/IDEAS

• [Phoenix Blast] Fire Blast can be used while Ember is down in a Bleeding state self-resurrecting herself to full Health and unleashing a Fire Blast with an increased damage of XX%. (This augment's effect has a cooldown of XX seconds).

 

CURRENT PYROMANIA AUGMENT IDEAS

• [Pyro-Maneuver] Parkour Maneuvers add Bonus Heat stacks.

• [Pyro-Mend] While toggled on, Fireball and Fire Blast mends allies healing XXX Health from Fireball and XX from Fire Blast

 

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UPDATE 24.5.0 PATCH NOTES - [DE]'s STATEMENT

Balance is a conversation that we constantly have, and we see you having as well. For some people the answer is don't nerf things, buff everything else. This is the path of least resistance for us, as most of the player base is happy when we buff, and angry when we nerf. However this has a few side effects that impact the game as a whole. First, with more damage, the time to kill on enemies is lowered and the value of Crowd Control declines even more (Vauban?!). Higher max damage also means that players with the latest bells and whistles can easily kill bosses in an instant, and overcome any challenge with ease. The more your play, the easier the game gets!

So far we have been kicking the can down the road, accepting power creep and its consequences on the game - and often this game is a 'kill all the things' based game. We've mostly done nerfs on things that could be automated, required no player interaction or removed options from the game by making all other choices bad. We will continue to wrestle with this, but the most important part is when and if we decide major balance changes are needed, we will let you know and it will be the result of a lot of consideration. Design changes like this need to be more tempered and considered.

 

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TOPIC ON FIRE BLAST'S "ATTACK THROUGH" MECHANIC AND ADDING THAT INTO THIS CONCEPT'S BONFIRES

It is possible that the bonfires Ember creates with her 1st ability and in this concept's version of Fire Blast's bonfires to inhabit the "attack through to gain 50% Heat bonus damage" gimmick. The major upside in this version of it is how easily accessible it would be for teammates to take advantage of this due to this Ember's bonfires to be more common and more readily.

I may make a new post about allowing Fireball to also "collect" Bonfire bonuses that the fireball passes through in another time.

 

THOUGHTS ON THE DEV WORKSHOP AUGMENT REVISIT {7/25/19}

A few days ago, [DE] released a new Dev Workshop post revealing plans on revisiting Augments. In one part, they have mentioned possible changes to the "Elemental Infusion" Augments:

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Fireball Frenzy - Fireball Augment - Ember
Freeze Force - Freeze Augment - Frost
Smite Infusion - Smite Augment - Oberon
Venom Dose - Spores Augment - Saryn
Shock Trooper - Shock Augment - Volt 

• Holding the casting button will send out a wave (much like similar, expanding Warframe Abilities) giving the elemental buff to every player it touches, including the caster

For a few Warframes, I can see this as a very nice change. However, for Ember, I see a few problems.

For one, there is already an Augment that buffs Heat damage like Fireball Frenzy: Flash Accelerant. Though not to a high degree as Fireball Frenzy can be, I feel in the case of Ember it is just some added tech to fix the current problem establishing her role and effectively making that role apparent.

With how most damage/buff based Warframe builds tend to be, I foresee that this Fireball Frenzy change might move Ember builds to focus mostly on Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy with enough high strength and low efficiency.

There is also the issue about the general community very vocal on "hold down to charge" Warframe abilities to consider. Ember's Fireball has that gimmick and I feel this Augment can conflict with the charge mechanic of Fireball.

But these are just concerns on how this Augment will be implemented and how it will affect Ember in the future.

 

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REASON WHY HEAT STATUS SHOULD NOT BE CHANGED ATM - 9/27/19

Looking at Heat Damage Type, Heat Status Procs is the only element that has both a Damage-Over-Time and a Crowd Control mechanic to it. This fact is clear to see it has to be stuck this way for balancing purposes.

Understandable that Slash and Toxic/Gas are both DoT Status Procs and they can ramp up the damage they do from reapplying the procs, but asking the same thing for Heat (which resets the proc when reapplied), it could be a bit more powerful due to the Crowd Control aspect of Heat.

My suggestion for Ember in the form of the Furnace passive is a way to work around Heat proc's shortcoming. Instead of asking for a more powerful World on Fire or such, we should focus more on what changes to Ember's kit can help reinforce the status proc of Heat.

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DEVSTREAM 131 REACTION ON EMBER SHOWCASE

I'd like to analyze these changes and see how they all interconnect with one another.

Having Heat Damage Type change will have a heavy impact on some weapon builds and indefinitely on Ember if the Armor Stripping is formidable enough to match with Corrosive.

Some have mentioned this, but this new passive of Ember is more of a side-grade to the one I presented in this thread. My variant deals with improving Status Damage. This one deals with improving Power Strength. I feel Status Damage would be a much better direction, but we will have to see how this one goes.

I feel removing the charge mechanic of base Fireball is necessary. With the new Elemental First Ability Augment changes, it leaves room for Fireball to have a second gimmick. Perhaps have Ember's Power Strength affect Fireball's damage by +25% of the current Power Strength or have Fireball be a punch-through projectile.

I was surprised they would bring back Overheat into Ember again. I can't say how much this would affect her gameplay, but it may improve her survivability in the field more especially in open world areas.

Removing he fire ring of Fire Blast was necessary. Having the third ability strip armor is going to make the ability one of the go-to abilities for higher level swarms especially combined with the Heat Damage changes and the possible effect the heat bar will have with the ability. Though I can say some will have the knockback.

The current World on Fire was a lazy design, and I welcome the new one simply based on the utility it has. Enemies will be panicking with the possibility of spreading the heat proc to other enemies making this both a nuke setup for Ember's passive and a strong CC to spread.

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by FoxFX

[Hrodgrim]

You were harping on about this in the council tab the other day. Everything you said then was 10/10.

[8coolguy]

Issues:

1. Passive: 
How would this interact with weapons? If a weapon that had a high status chance would apply heat proc multiple times in the six seconds, wouldn’t the damage dealt through the heat proc reset every time heat proced. This also does not seem to work with her third and fourth ability because if the proc re-triggers it will only do base damage.

My idea: Heat Check (inspiration from Nidus Passive):
Ember will be able to see the temperature of the room and the more she uses her abilities the higher the temperature and her damage scales up until a cap (similar to Nidus stacks).

2. First Ability: Really good , but will armor strip scale with power strength and will it strip all of the armor with a second cast or just half of remaining ?

3.Second Ability: 
The reset will reset the damage ramp that it has, so instead it should increase the 60% tick damage to 100% for more damage. It should also increase the damage of the third ability 

4. Third Ability:  Will the marked enemies spread the mark to other enemies that it will affect through the bonfire ?That would a really cool addition that would make her a really good dps.

5. Ultimate:

Instead of health, I propose energy. There are many frames that can give health, but not many give energy. With energy, she can use her ability more which will be synergistic with what I think the passive should be.

Final thoughts: I love the idea, but it’s not like DE takes player ideas. One day tho. But keep making them.
Also my grammar bestest

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by 8coolguy

[FoxFX]

3 hours ago, 8coolguy said:

Issues:

1. Passive: 
How would this interact with weapons? If a weapon that had a high status chance would apply heat proc multiple times in the six seconds, wouldn’t the damage dealt through the heat proc reset every time heat proced. This also does not seem to work with her third and fourth ability because if the proc re-triggers it will only do base damage.

My idea: Heat Check (inspiration from Nidus Passive):
Ember will be able to see the temperature of the room and the more she uses her abilities the higher the temperature and her damage scales up until a cap (similar to Nidus stacks).

2. First Ability: Really good , but will armor strip scale with power strength and will it strip all of the armor with a second cast or just half of remaining ?

3.Second Ability: 
The reset will reset the damage ramp that it has, so instead it should increase the 60% tick damage to 100% for more damage. It should also increase the damage of the third ability 

4. Third Ability:  Will the marked enemies spread the mark to other enemies that it will affect through the bonfire ?That would a really cool addition that would make her a really good dps.

5. Ultimate:

Instead of health, I propose energy. There are many frames that can give health, but not many give energy. With energy, she can use her ability more which will be synergistic with what I think the passive should be.

Final thoughts: I love the idea, but it’s not like DE takes player ideas. One day tho. But keep making them.
Also my grammar bestest

 

 

 

From information on Warframe's Wiki:

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Heat status procs does not stack the way Toxin, Gas, and Slash procs do. Instead, a Heat proc applied while Ignite is already in effect will refresh the initial proc's duration and re-apply the panic effect without changing its damage per second.

Namely, reapplying Heat status procs resets the duration and reapplies the panic effect. At base, the Heat damage ticks does not change.

With Furnace, it can set a counter on enemies affected by the ticks and increase the damage of the DoT accordingly.

The key to why Health Regeneration for Ember's 4th ability covers issues with Ember's survivability as well as maintain a thematic element of Ember : Ember as a phoenix. Through keeping Pyromania on, Ember is assured health regeneration, one that can open synergy with mods like Rage for Energy sustainability. Though that is solely base on how others would feel more about it.

 

There is an alternative for the Furnace passive's mechanics I have already set in stone for more simplicity, but I will save that idea until there are more feedback on this.

[FoxFX]

20 hours ago, Reefermun said:

You were harping on about this in the council tab the other day. Everything you said then was 10/10.

 

The aim for this is solely to recollect rarely used Warframes. As of now, Vauban is currently in [DE]'s radar. Ember is a Warframe whose playstyle I feel needs to be mentioned next.

[FoxFX]

I will post soon the alternative of Furnace that I have worked on in a later time. But for now, I will test out a few more things with Ember in real game.

[FoxFX]

STATUS DAMAGE AND HOW EMBER FURNACE PASSIVE CONCEPT WOULD WORK WITH IT

The key to an alternative Ember Furnace passive that I have presented is the idea of "Status Damage" stat. So far, there has never been any other mod or ability that actually upgrades this specific stat besides the Aura Mod: Empowered Blades. For the alternative Furnace passive, it could go as so:

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Ember gains +XX% Heat Status Damage for each second an Ignited enemy is within 30 meters from Ember. This damage bonus bleeds out by XX% per second.

 

[FoxFX]

DAMAGE NUMBERS BASED ON DIFFERENT PERCENTAGES OF FURNACE PASSIVE (Base Heat Damage 400):

10%:   400, 440, 484, 532, 585, 644, 708 {Total 3793 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

20%:   400, 480, 576, 691, 829, 995, 1194 {Total 5165 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

30%:   400, 520, 676, 878, 1142, 1485, 1930 {Total 7031 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

40%:   400, 560, 784, 1097, 1536, 2151, 3011 {Total 9539 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

50%:   400, 600, 900, 1350, 2025, 3037, 4556 {Total 12868 Heat damage in 6 seconds}

 

[FoxFX]

I remain deciding on releasing a Vauban or Wukong article next. Please stay tuned for more info.

[Calthous]

Well the passive combined with pyromania gets close to what I think people originally wanted from an overheat mechanic. I still think heat procs in general need to be reexamined, but otherwise I am largely in agreement with your proposal.

[FoxFX]

7 hours ago, Calthous said:

Well the passive combined with pyromania gets close to what I think people originally wanted from an overheat mechanic. I still think heat procs in general need to be reexamined, but otherwise I am largely in agreement with your proposal.

Thanks for the comment. Keep an eye as I am preparing another article for Wukong.

[FoxFX]

Had to update the title just to see what other feedback and commentary on Ember the Warframe as she is now.

[Koekr]

I completely support trying to make her viable in lategame, although I believe the issue of ability damage scaling is a deeper problem with Warframe. Nevertheless, I quite appreciate the intensity of this reworked Ember, and how this rework took what she already had and made it more focused.

However, you mentioned that this new Pyromania is based off the idea of Ember as a Phoenix, so you might want to consider replacing the healing with an escape-death mechanic similar to Wukong's Defy?

[FoxFX]

22 hours ago, Koekr said:

I completely support trying to make her viable in lategame, although I believe the issue of ability damage scaling is a deeper problem with Warframe. Nevertheless, I quite appreciate the intensity of this reworked Ember, and how this rework took what she already had and made it more focused.

However, you mentioned that this new Pyromania is based off the idea of Ember as a Phoenix, so you might want to consider replacing the healing with an escape-death mechanic similar to Wukong's Defy?

 

There is the new Fire Blast Augment idea I presented called Phoenix Blast. It allows Ember to activate Fire Blast while in the Bleedout State and auto-revives her doing so with increased damage. There are more things I am playing around with for Ember behind the scenes.

 

I will look a bit more on Pyromania.

Edited March 3, 2019 by FoxFX

[FoxFX]

I have been toying with the idea of increasing Ember's Health Regeneration based on the current Health Ember has lost. Though her Health is practically within the average level of most Warframes, a previous official Rework of Ember increased the Armor she originally had from double digits to triple digits. She could take some beatings before going down, but she is no means tanky unless you mod Ember that way.

[FoxFX]

I weighed in the idea of giving Ember a Defy-like ability, and I feel the 3rd augment idea and Ember's 4th gives her enough sustainability for the role of glass-cannon. Having the health regeneration and the 3rd augment idea self-revive should simulate a fun experience for Ember being something of a phoenix (something I feel DE could really make Ember feel like).

 

I will be adding a section on synergies soon. I will also like to talk about bonfires and how they can replace the "attack-through to gain Heat damage" effect Fire Blast currently has.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

You lost my support at "Minimize changes to her 1, 2, and 3".  Sorry but she needs way more than a look at WoF.

Edited March 5, 2019 by (XB1)Thy Divinity

[FoxFX]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

You lost my support at "Minimize changes to her 1, 2, and 3".  Sorry but she needs way more than a look at EoD.

Have you viewed all that I wrote? It doesn't seem you have quite seen what I have made in here.

[FoxFX]

On 2019-03-05 at 10:59 AM, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

You lost my support at "Minimize changes to her 1, 2, and 3".  Sorry but she needs way more than a look at WoF.

Perhaps you can explain your stance at this.

[FoxFX]

Another change to the title. I understand the ongoing Hildryn discussion, but Ember has been a Warframe we have had since the beginning. There are some things we can talk about her now.

[FoxFX]

TOPIC ON FIRE BLAST'S "ATTACK THROUGH" MECHANIC AND ADDING THAT INTO THIS CONCEPT'S BONFIRES

It is possible that the bonfires Ember creates with her 1st ability and in this concept's version of Fire Blast's bonfires to inhabit the "attack through to gain 50% Heat bonus damage" gimmick. The major upside in this version of it is how easily accessible it would be for teammates to take advantage of this due to this Ember's bonfires to be more common and more readily.

I may make a new post about allowing Fireball to also "collect" Bonfire bonuses that the fireball passes through in another time.

[FoxFX]

Going to update the OP of this thread one last time. Sadly, not enough people are coming in here to share their Ember experiences here.

 

I will prepare a rework thread for another Warframe. It might be that Valkyr will be next, but if there is any Warframe you think I should talk about, now is the time.

[000l000]

Her passive is fine, she's only lacking of a self burning power. If she was considered as burning while staying in Fire Blast area, problem would be solved and she'd get a huge buff (more energy and more damage is really powerful).

Furnace is a really bad idea since it can't be switch off since it's a passive. Plus it only does what her 4th is already doing (ie. damaging everything around but with terrible damages - many enemies resist to fire).

In fact you share the same misunderstanding of Ember many players here have. You're obsessed with Ember being able to kill anything with powers only even if we all know that fire can only kill infested efficiently in this game. Ember synergies really well if you're using fire damage weapon, full fire Ignis Wraith for example. Accelerant and Fire Blast make you deal fire additional damages, but not only you, your entire team. 

Sure that's not Chroma damage buff but once an enemy gets hit by accelerant, he's dying in a sec anyway so i still don't get why people keeps complaining all day long about her. She's the only frame in the entire game who can kill anything with fire only. -_-

Edited March 13, 2019 by 000l000

[FoxFX]

8 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Her passive is fine, she's only lacking of a self burning power. If she was considered as burning while staying in Fire Blast area, problem would be solved and she'd get a huge buff (more energy and more damage is really powerful).

Furnace is a really bad idea since it can't be switch off since it's a passive. Plus it only does what her 4th is already doing (ie. damaging everything around but with terrible damages - many enemies resist to fire). 

In fact you share the same misunderstanding of Ember many players here have. You're obsessed with Ember being able to kill anything with powers only even if we all know that fire can only kill infested efficiently in this game. Ember synergies really well if you're using fire damage weapon, full fire Ignis Wraith for example. Accelerant and Fire Blast make you deal fire additional damages, but not only you, your entire team. 

Sure that's not Chroma damage buff but once an enemy gets hit by accelerant, he's dying in a sec anyway so i still don't get why people keeps complaining all day long about her. She's the only frame in the entire game who can kill anything with fire only. -_-

 

I have to once again refer to the last Ember rework patch notes from [DE] HERE.

DE states that they wanted Ember to be a glass-cannon and that they wanted Ember to have "increased lethality at higher levels."

Ember's stats does show she can't really take much damage and relies solely on Heat's crowd control and Accelerant to stay live, this is true. But a passive that requires her to take damage for just a small Energy Regeneration and a static Strength upgrade? There is a handful of enemies that deal Heat damage to make it more consistent enough as a base utility.

On to the idea of making Fire Blast's ring trigger her passive, that alone has the heavy disadvantage of being open to enemy fire still and the fact that there is no real feedback in paying Energy to gain Energy Regeneration.

A majority of the community want Ember to be a damage dealer, because that is what she was meant to be and what [DE] was trying to do in her past rework. This rework thread is simply to make it so her abilities are consistent with that design goal: allowing her less restrictions to just Fire-based weapons and still be the Ember we know and a playstyle where she eventually needs to work and synergize with her kit to be the damage dealer she was meant to be.

We also have Nezha who can deal scalable Fire Damage, and I feel that Warframe is right now a more useful Fire-based Warframe than Ember.

Edited March 13, 2019 by FoxFX

[FoxFX]

Will talk further on the idea of making Fireball be a punch-through projectile in another quote point.