a REAL veteran challenge

[(PSN)SirHAMsword]

After a thousand hours or two: "veteran" players have seen all kinds of things and can solo just about everything. Arbitration doesn't change much; you just can't die or rely on warframe abilities that directly affect enemies (e.g. using debuffs to power up instead of buffs on yourself). A singular added mechanic in such a way only limits creativity by providing a hinderance to some play styles and no challange to others. Players must spend consecutive hours within an endless mission and suffer a lot of single shot death in order to find more hardy enemies that don't feel like loot boxes running toward you. After 2,000 hours: i've capped damge, survived vs 4digit level enemies, solo'd DE releases, and won a dojo contest. What about the people with 3000+ hours? What's left for the players who have conquered the existing game? **Here comes the real suggestion.** Homeworld missions OR a Hardmode Star Chart. Allowing enemies to spawn at TEN(to thirty) TIMES their origional level within the star chart with multiple reward bonuses per mission (2-3x the normal amount) and ONE NIGHTMARE modifier per mission applied randomly at the start of the mission. This would mean that at level 1-5 enemies would scale past the star chart and allow a base mission to be a real challenge. Capture targets at level 300 would require copious teamwork or incredible skill, giving veteran players a need for their accumulated knowledge and power. Survial missions in this way would allow the elite players without 3-8 consecutive hours to spare to go STRAIGHT into the action and love the game all over again. This would also allow a means to test damage and resistance of a player against horrifying enemies that the simulacrum is not capable of dispensing. From a financial standpoint, as long as unique rewards aren't released within this content: regular players aren't missing anything at all from it and don't need to feel excluded. Furthermore, it provides a retention of long term spenders to show off their capabilities and new skins as they won't have to commit hours to seeing sufficiently levelled enemies to show off where an ignis can't, thereby reducing attrition of long-term players.

[peterc3]

2 hours ago, (PS4)SirHAMsword said:

require copious teamwork

This would be played once and never touched again.

[(PSN)BroadbandDrifter]

It would be played often if the rewards weren't so lackluster.  If there were high tier weapons, cosmetics or gear that could only be obtained by playing the game mode in question, it might see a lot of participation. Kuva, endo, and mods most vets don't care about aren't rewards and it would be great if DE realized that and acted accordingly instead of constantly watering stuff down to make it approachable by the masses.

[Loza03]

Buffing the levels does nothing to change the fact that enemies are fundamentally weak and have no way to affect the flow of combat (outside of Nullifiers, which have their own problems), leaving them to be at the mercy of the player, ultimately causing there to be no challenge, in turn making difficulty meaningless. I suggest that instead DE rework core systems to make damage less overwhelming on both sides (Steve seems to be working on this, thank god), opening the game up to more options at high levels and then adding a handful of mini-bosses that are each resistant to typical passive gameplay options as well as implementing systems that cause enemies to fire their abilities in combination instead of at random, making gameplay that rewards multiple approaches to combat instead of just the most passive ones, in turn rewarding co-operation by causing teams with variety in their toolkits to have greater success against a more varied group of enemies.

[SarusMindfury]

I could agree on "unlocking" survival tiers like an hour or likely to the hardcore players, so you can start with enemies from the hour 8th if you achieved that level one day, but it wouldnt be gamechanger. 
Better loot? Any new way to get things in a more efficient way can change a good part of game economy and HAVE to be handled with a lot of caution. 

[(PSN)SirHAMsword]

16 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This would be played once and never touched again.

"or incredible skill" deciding to end your quote 3 words short. also, What's the difference between that and what the archwing missions have become?

 

7 hours ago, SarusMindfury said:

Better loot? Any new way to get things in a more efficient way can change a good part of game economy and HAVE to be handled with a lot of caution. 

i doubt the prevalence of buying and selling mods from regular missions would severely affect the game economy by allowing people to have 60 of an extra mod instead of 20. i'd bet you have a lot of extra nightmare mods that sit in your inventory without affecting the economy. i'm still not sure the last time i've seen people posting their interest in buying spy/nightmare mods and corrupted mods are generally around 5-10p a piece, so spending a lot of time selling them is... quite an investment in time for not a lot of profit compared to, say, rivens or prime sets

 

7 hours ago, SarusMindfury said:

so you can start with enemies from the hour 8th if you achieved that level one day, but it wouldnt be gamechanger. 

not waiting 8 hours in order to see those enemies would mean EIGHT HOURS (that's almost a full day of work) that i don't have to wait for enemies to scale in order to test out builds. i am not alone. Even two hours would allow the boring part to be skipped, allowing people with things to do the ability to play against scaled enemies at their leisure without playing solo and hitting pause. This would also give clans QUITE a litmus tool for clans to test new recruits and see where they're at, instead of recruits thinking they're a god.

 

14 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Buffing the levels does nothing to change the fact that enemies are fundamentally weak

then give them a sortie enhancement instead of a nightmare mod? level 250 enemies with augmented armor or elemental enhancement would be pretty significant on infested or corrupted. The trend has been toward limited survivability instead of damage resilience, so i wouldn't rely on your developers without forum guidance to give you what you want. Imput (heeded or not) is the reason forums are a thing.

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)BroadbandDrifter said:

It would be played often if the rewards weren't so lackluster.  If there were, cosmetics or gear that could only be obtained by playing the game mode in question, it might see a lot of participation. instead of constantly watering stuff down to make it approachable by the masses.

Cosmetics are a great idea! Give something for people to want to do more challenging game modes while not affecting combat. As long as they're not tradeable the economy would be largely unaffected. 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (PS4)SirHAMsword said:

then give them a sortie enhancement instead of a nightmare mod? level 250 enemies with augmented armor or elemental enhancement would be pretty significant on infested or corrupted. The trend has been toward limited survivability instead of damage resilience, so i wouldn't rely on your developers without forum guidance to give you what you want. Imput (heeded or not) is the reason forums are a thing.

That's basically the same thing still. Numbers are not challenging.

[(PSN)SirHAMsword]

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That's basically the same thing still.

Vampire mode on infested with millions of hp, allowing you to heal off of hits is the same thing as adding armor to infested with the same millions of health? i'm not certain you know what you're talking about. Maybe you should bring up a reason that it's not challenging, instead of forum boasting?

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)SirHAMsword said:

Vampire mode on infested with millions of hp, allowing you to heal off of hits is the same thing as adding armor to infested with the same millions of health? i'm not certain you know what you're talking about. Maybe you should bring up a reason that it's not challenging, instead of forum boasting?

 

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

and have no way to affect the flow of combat (outside of Nullifiers, which have their own problems), leaving them to be at the mercy of the player, ultimately causing there to be no challenge, in turn making difficulty meaningless. I suggest that instead DE rework core systems to make damage less overwhelming on both sides (Steve seems to be working on this, thank god), opening the game up to more options at high levels and then adding a handful of mini-bosses that are each resistant to typical passive gameplay options as well as implementing systems that cause enemies to fire their abilities in combination instead of at random, making gameplay that rewards multiple approaches to combat instead of just the most passive ones, in turn rewarding co-operation by causing teams with variety in their toolkits to have greater success against a more varied group of enemies.

I mean, if you're going to complain about people cherry picking parts of comments...

[(PSN)SirHAMsword]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

 

I mean, if you're going to complain about people cherry picking parts of comments...

you quoted yourself on something that makes the game sound easier. i don't see your point, and it still doesn't look constructive. it appears that you're waiting for steeve to fix it on his own.

 

29 minutes ago, (PS4)SirHAMsword said:

The trend has been toward limited survivability instead of damage resilience, so i wouldn't rely on your developers without forum guidance to give you what you want. Imput (heeded or not) is the reason forums are a thing.

ignoring a response is cherry picking. How will you expect steeve to know what challenges you if you just blindly announce that there's no challenge instead of saying why things have no challenge?

[Loza03]

Just now, (PS4)SirHAMsword said:

you quoted yourself on something that makes the game sound easier. i don't see your point, and it still doesn't look constructive. it appears that you're waiting for steeve to fix it on his own.

Challenge isn't the same thing as difficulty. Difficulty is how mechanically hard it is to complete a challenge. Challenge is how much an activity tests a persons skills. Right now, literally any content can be beaten by locking down the entire room with hard CC or infinitely-scaling damage. There is no skill involved, therefore difficulty does not matter. The game needs to have its challenge fixed before its difficulty.

And, yes, I am waiting on Steve to do the thing he said he was going to do in a tweet. Which is fix the ludicrous disparities in terms of damage which heavily restrict player freedom by being incredibly hostile to glass cannon frames (AKA any frame that isn't a tank) and fixing armour scaling.

 

[(PSN)SirHAMsword]

Seems that steve said "in railjack only." Adding multiple scaling mechanics, and adding resistance to infinitely scaling damage like armor to infested or some suggestion that i'm looking for on forums would be a check on problem solving skills or math skills. 

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Challenge is how much an activity tests a persons skills. Right now, literally any content can be beaten by locking down the entire room with hard CC or infinitely-scaling damage.

And, yes, I am waiting on Steve to do the thing he said he was going to do in a tweet. Which is fix the ludicrous disparities in terms of damage which heavily restrict player freedom by being incredibly hostile to glass cannon frames (AKA any frame that isn't a tank) and fixing armour scaling.

 

i would argue that many "glass cannon" frames are tanks that will test your ability to put a sheild in front of you to block all damage or keep within an area to scale frame damage and avoid gunfire. Where's the difference, except that in your waiting you would still see the same problem you described. E.g. infinitely scaling damage eliminating enemies without a challenge? Furthermore he said "in Railjack (only)" leading to no change within other game modes, if you believe that his twitter words will always be coding.

Furthermore waiting on someone to fix an incredibly ambiguous problem you have that causes him migranes defeats the purpose of forums by constantly negating the affirmative. You might as well argue that we should say nothing (support the status quo) -- which is the complete opposite point of the forums, which is to provide player imput. Hoping that railjack permanently fixes your scaling problem within a new area won't help your desire for a challenge.

Here's a few examples: 

Problem- Missions can be easily completed by infintely crowd controlling enemies. Solution/Suggestion- Add an internal cooldown or diminishing return to crowd controls to give enemies the ability to eventually attack if the player is unable to kill them within a sufficient amount of time.

Problem- Infinitely scaling damage presents a means to brute through any mission. Solution/Suggestion- Add damage resistance mechanics to enemies in order that scale with time at a rate that will outpace the scaling damage, leaving players the need to amplify this damage in some way.

Bad example:

Problem- There's no skill required in the game.  Solution- Steve said he was doing stuff.

[Loza03]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)SirHAMsword said:

Seems that steve said "in railjack only." Adding multiple scaling mechanics, and adding resistance to infinitely scaling damage like armor to infested or some suggestion that i'm looking for on forums would be a check on problem solving skills or math skills. 

i would argue that many "glass cannon" frames are tanks that will test your ability to put a sheild in front of you to block all damage or keep within an area to scale frame damage and avoid gunfire. Where's the difference, except that in your waiting you would still see the same problem you described. E.g. infinitely scaling damage eliminating enemies without a challenge? Furthermore he said "in Railjack (only)" leading to no change within other game modes, if you believe that his twitter words will always be coding.

Furthermore waiting on someone to fix an incredibly ambiguous problem you have that causes him migranes defeats the purpose of forums by constantly negating the affirmative. You might as well argue that we should say nothing (support the status quo) -- which is the complete opposite point of the forums, which is to provide player imput. Hoping that railjack permanently fixes your scaling problem within a new area won't help your desire for a challenge. 

Here's a few examples: 

Problem- Missions can be easily completed by infintely crowd controlling enemies. Solution/Suggestion- Add an internal cooldown or diminishing return to crowd controls to give enemies the ability to eventually attack if the player is unable to kill them within a sufficient amount of time. 

Problem- Infinitely scaling damage presents a means to brute through any mission. Solution/Suggestion- Add damage resistance mechanics to enemies in order that scale with time at a rate that will outpace the scaling damage, leaving players the need to amplify this damage in some way. 

Bad example:

Problem- There's no skill required in the game.  Solution- Steve said he was doing stuff.

You seem to think I'm just saying 'Steve will fix everything' When I never said that. I said

16 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I suggest that instead DE rework core systems to make damage less overwhelming on both sides (Steve seems to be working on this, thank god),

And then go on to other points. The meaning being: "Steve is already working on fixing damage". Not "Steve is already working on every problem I talk about."

 

Also, Steve said he's 'trying' the new system in Railjack, implying it's a test run. This is corroborated on devstream in devstream 122.

[HLixir]

A bit late but this idea has been brought up several times already. DE states that they don't want more separation of players. Not sure if they want to encourage veterans carrying new players.

[(PSN)SirHAMsword]

45 minutes ago, --Q--HLixir said:

Not sure if they want to encourage veterans carrying new players.

That's generally the case, yeah. Harder when vets are bored though, so i hoped to suggest some kind of balance. Nothing with new items like eidolon hunts or rewards that require stuff like Orb Mothers. Hoping for something to increase long term playing without inspiring boredom. Two hours in mot is simply too long to wait to play something interesting imo, and there's no higher level captures than kuva floods.... and that's no challenge