Total D-Bag Move, De - Mutagen Sample/mass

[Wiegraf]

They have to give reason to do Derelicts other than just farming for Lephantis nav coordinates. Considering how standard nav coordinates drops so commonly (I usually get at least 3 per mission, minimum) and how cheap it is to craft one, I don't see what the problem is.

 

And if you forward the reason "Well, what about new players who don't have that much credits yet?" : the Derelict enemies are around Lv.25; as a new player, you won't get to go there before a while and once you do, you'll have decent enough weapons and frame to do it and a ton of navs to use into making the keys.

 

If anything, I find it logical that high end ressources for Infested weaponry happen to be in an Infested Orokin Derelict. Besides, if you've invested any sort of time in the game already (even so much as 20-40 hours), you shouldn't have a problem crafting those... even less so if you're already in the high mastery ranks.

[JustDont]

They said in a previous livestream that the armor system was "working as intended." However, with enough voice giving feedback as to why it shouldn't be this way, DE did reconsider their actions.

I wouldn't be too happy about the whole "we're looking at our armor system" until we actually see the changes.

It could be the same story as with "yes, we'll balance warframes and will try to do so without nerfing". We all know how it ended.

Edited September 18, 2013 by JustDont

[NalkorRN]

The train just doesn't stop, does it?

THE RAPETRAIN HAS NO BRAKES

[JerichoFayne]

This reminds me of some "best" korean MMO grinds.

Farm X of item Y to make item Z which enables you to take a shot on farming item K, and L of those are needed to make item M, which in turn enables you to...

 

Don't forget in those games, after investing the resources to make an item, there is a percentage chance of failure.  Plus, when you use an upgrade kit, there is a change you'll destroy the item & start all over again.

 

I'm pretty sure if that happens here we'll all be packing up & leaving, but time will tell.

[ZeroPhobic]

I think the main problem that they touched on during stream is that devs generally don't have to grind for anything, and their play testers might not have to either, and if they do their input might not get enough weight.

 

This means costs/grind progressions can be completely unreasonable, specially if one part of the dev team sets the costs and another changes how you get them, these mutagen costs would be a lot more reasonable if mutagens didn't only drop in derelicts anymore.

 

And frankly infested outside of derelicts dropping fieldrons is stupid.

My new hero ^^^^

[Brimir]

I don't see what the problem is.

 

Have you taken a look at the requirements to craft any of the new Infested weaponry?

 

10 Mutagen Masses (100 Mutagen Samples, 10 Control Modules+120hours build time) for Synapse or Dual Ichors. I would not be surprised if the Djinn takes 15-20 Mutagen Masses... All the while Acrid, the undesputed king of all Warframe weapons, only takes 5 Mutagen Masses.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Brimir

[NalkorRN]

Have you taken a look at the requirements to craft any of the new Infested weaponry?

 

10 Mutagen Masses (100 Mutagen Samples, 10 Control Modules+120hours build time) for Synapse and Dual Ichors. I would not be surprised if the Djinn takes 15-20 Mutagen Masses...

Djinn isn't even that good. His special ability does to enemies what Carrier does for loot: brings them nice and close to you. I'm certain that's exactly what you want when five level 100 Toxic Ancients want to hug you.

[ZeroPhobic]

Have you taken a look at the requirements to craft any of the new Infested weaponry?

 

10 Mutagen Masses (100 Mutagen Samples, 10 Control Modules+120hours build time) for Synapse and Dual Ichors. I would not be surprised if the Djinn takes 15-20 Mutagen Masses...

For 100 Mutagen in the new tilesets, they better drop like it's their job, only thing on their W2's.

 

Name: New Tile Set

Occupation: Drop Mutagen

[Brimir]

Djinn isn't even that good. His special ability does to enemies what Carrier does for loot: brings them nice and close to you. I'm certain that's exactly what you want when five level 100 Toxic Ancients want to hug you.

 

From what I can tell, it's weapon is bascially Acrid Jr.

 

You can put that on your Carrier or whatever.

[Gigatron-Prime]

What is DE thinking? Please give me my money back. They should have an anit-Founder's program for people who wish to withdraw their support.

[RealityMachina]

Djinn isn't even that good. His special ability does to enemies what Carrier does for loot: brings them nice and close to you. I'm certain that's exactly what you want when five level 100 Toxic Ancients want to hug you.

You know, Carrier's ability with loot, yeah, I can see where some people would want that.

 

Djinn's apparent ability to do the same thing with enemies...no, nope. nope. nope nope nope. I mean, yes Mag has a somewhat similar power...but Mag has the advantage of being controlled by a human, IE someone who can decide when they should use Pull.

 

A sentinel with no real concept of good timing? Oh dear lord who thought this was a good idea.

[KriLL3]

 I mean, yes Mag has a somewhat similar power...but Mag has the advantage of being controlled by a human, IE someone who can decide when they should use Pull.

 

Ever played with a troll/stupid mag? pulling toxic ancients into melee range in defense missions? Pulling grineer corpus inside snow globes? I have, Djinn sounds about as much fun.

[NalkorRN]

You know, Carrier's ability with loot, yeah, I can see where some people would want that.

 

Djinn's apparent ability to do the same thing with enemies...no, nope. nope. nope nope nope. I mean, yes Mag has a somewhat similar power...but Mag has the advantage of being controlled by a human, IE someone who can decide when they should use Pull.

 

A sentinel with no real concept of good timing? Oh dear lord who thought this was a good idea.

That's what I saw on the image for Fatal Attraction on the wiki, so unless it's another DE item description blunder, then as Brimir put it, Djinn's only real use will be giving Carrier/Dethcube/Wyrm/Shade the Acrid Jr as an equippable weapon.

[fatpig84]

Doesn't matter, I got Acrid and Torid which are still the best weapons by far currently.

The rest I just pretend they never existed.

 

Now I can focus my efforts on Lanka and Dera.

[Xylia]

Well, I can see some use in low-to-mid level Infestation missions if you're Rhino.

 

I'm there hacking away with the weapon of my choice (Reaper, Orthos, etc) and if I had this handy floaty thing that just grabs everything and pulls it into me (including those annoying guys who stop and blow up or leap at me) then that's OK I guess.

 

Corpus... actually, lol, that would be kinda funny for Corpus. They are nice and squishy. Bring Rhino and Djinn, have Orthos ready... and chop the squishy little guys in spacesuits to bits and tear their weak robots apart too.

[TheSphynx]

I can't believe you people are still crying about Mutagen when there is a much larger issue in Forma. At least you can gain a steady and stable rate of Mutagen. With forma, you can blow 50+ hours trying to obtain everything (Void Keys, Running Void) and still not get a forma or forma blueprint.

[Flackenstien]

It's more of a reason for people to play the brand new areas that they worked hard to make.
If everyone just quit going there after they got Necro, then what was the point of all that hard work?

Farming for materials there also means people get more Golem Navs, meaning more people will fight the boss for fun, which is a good thing since they put so much work into creating such a fun boss.

 

Also, I don't even see what the problem is to begin with..

Edited September 19, 2013 by Flackenstien

[NalkorRN]

It's more of a reason for people to play the brand new areas that they worked hard to make.

If everyone just quit going there after they got Necro, then what was the point of all that hard work?

Farming for materials there also means people get more Golem Navs, meaning more people will fight the boss for fun, which is a good thing since they put so much work into creating such a fun boss.

 

Also, I don't even see what the problem is to begin with..

Forcing people to play in a tileset that the devs spent a lot of time creating is not going to make players love the unique tileset, quite the opposite actually. They'll end up fostering a deep hatred for being forced into that area just to develop a few weapons or to get parts for a new warframe without spending platinum. Even Vauban is still alert reward driven, Banshee is mission reward/endless defense reward, all others are assigned to bosses you can easily farm.

I can easily see what the problem is.

[Xylia]

Forcing people to play in a tileset that the devs spent a lot of time creating is not going to make players love the unique tileset, quite the opposite actually. They'll end up fostering a deep hatred for being forced into that area just to develop a few weapons or to get parts for a new warframe without spending platinum. Even Vauban is still alert reward driven, Banshee is mission reward/endless defense reward, all others are assigned to bosses you can easily farm.

I can easily see what the problem is.

 

^^

This guy makes a good point.

 

We need a better reason to go to Derelicts because "You must if you want Bio Weapons".

 

Seriously?

 

Nobody likes being "forced" to do anything. The Derelicts are cool; I've been to them a few times. I was greatly anticipating their release. I was kinda "Meh" when I found out that they are a key system (with all the flaws that Key-based content STILL has, such as Lobby issues), but I still liked the Tileset itself.

 

I'm not trying to find reason to avoid tileset, however I don't like having my arm twisted to force me to go there. Increase the Neurode Drop rate, make it the best rather than the only place to get Mutagen Samples, maybe 10% per mission chance to drop a random Void reward, put a low chance to find Void-Only Mods in this place, etc.

 

THOSE are good reasons that would make me want to do more Derelicts.

 

"But Thou Must" is one of the worst reasons any developer can find to try to get players to do something in a game. Human Beings are programmed by nature to resist something that tries to "force" us in a direction. We are instinctively compelled to resist. And in a game like Warframe, that resistance comes in two different forms: 1). The player will say "Screw it" and decide to not even try to build the Bio Weapons, or 2). Quit Warframe altogether.

 

Neither are healthy for the game.

[VoidPunch]

Not to make matters worse but I think they said they were going to do this with all clan materials. Have clan materials in specific faction locations like how the mutagen is only in one place/tileset. The fieldron sample are going to drop from the new corpus set I think and I guess detonite ampule will drop from a grineer set as well in the future

[NalkorRN]

Not to make matters worse but I think they said they were going to do this with all clan materials. Have clan materials in specific faction locations like how the mutagen is only in one place/tileset. The fieldron sample are going to drop from the new corpus set I think and I guess detonite ampule will drop from a grineer set as well in the future

You know, it's only going to hurt smaller and newer clans. Giant ones like Warbros won't feel that big of a dent in comparison due to how many can donate/contribute resources.

[Xylia]

You know, it's only going to hurt smaller and newer clans. Giant ones like Warbros won't feel that big of a dent in comparison due to how many can donate/contribute resources.

 

Not really.

 

The donation is paltry for a Ghost Clan (it is like 25-26 Samples for 1 research), and that has nothing to do with individual player requirements; doesn't matter how big my clan is I still need 100 Mutagen Samples to make Dual Ichor.

 

I could, maybe, bum more rides to the Derelicts off of people with a larger clan, but meh. The difference isn't THAT big.

 

The main unfairness is with the people who had large amounts of Mutagen already stockpiled; they're laughing at the poor suckers who didn't have enough to make everything already.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Xylia

[LtZefar]

Not really.

 

The donation is paltry for a Ghost Clan (it is like 25-26 Samples for 1 research), and that has nothing to do with individual player requirements; doesn't matter how big my clan is I still need 100 Mutagen Samples to make Dual Ichor.

 

I could, maybe, bum more rides to the Derelicts off of people with a larger clan, but meh. The difference isn't THAT big.

 

The main unfairness is with the people who had large amounts of Mutagen already stockpiled; they're laughing at the poor suckers who didn't have enough to make everything already.

A clan of 100 to 200 people don't need to throw in that many Mutagen sample if they all pitch in. It's like 1 each for half the crew. So they don't need to care so much

 

A Small guild on around 25 would need like 10 each from each member. So this will hurt smaller clans far more. 

 

For me I really don't like the new Derelict mission because I'm forced to make a key each time and invite people or stay in recruit channel a long time to get an invite for one. It is just BORING.

 

So I hate the whole part about Mutagen sample going to those missions.

[Estred]

Farm gate policy.

You'd better spend your precious plat or submit life of you and your firstborn to the eternal grind fest.

They did say that when you should be hitting Derelicts you probably have over 100 Nav Coordinates and they did also reduce the costs. I can assume the Mutagen Cost of Ichor and the like will be fixed as most Clantech are reduced early.

 

Remember when Dojo's were added and they so grossly favored Moon Clans by having ridiculous costs assuming that every member would donate 5 and they wold have a total of 500 (assuming 100 members) well that murders smaller players and small clans.

[ZeroPhobic]

Have you taken a look at the requirements to craft any of the new Infested weaponry?

 

10 Mutagen Masses (100 Mutagen Samples, 10 Control Modules+120hours build time) for Synapse or Dual Ichors. I would not be surprised if the Djinn takes 15-20 Mutagen Masses... All the while Acrid, the undesputed king of all Warframe weapons, only takes 5 Mutagen Masses.

I have been running some missions and looking at the numbers today. I have been getting on average about 4 mutagen per run doing regualr runs not the defense or survival, I have been running things (newer) people can solo easily. Just for the Mutagen alone the real cost for getting them for this weapon that needs 100 Mutagen is...

 

200/4 = 25 runs = 25 keys

 

25 keys =

25 x nav points 5 = 125

25 x circuits/polymer 80 = 2000

25 x salvage 750 = 6250

25 x nano spores 2,500 = 62,500

 

This is just to get the Mutagen to make the one weapon, these are the materials you would need to farm just to get the keys to farm one material. Plus all the time farm the mats to make the mutagen masses, control modules, and other mats for the build etc...

 

DE acts like this is content, when if we just break it down to the numbers, it is nothing but a grind. It is a grind just to get one mat for one weapon... really DE? UNLOCK THE MUTAGEN!!!

Edited September 19, 2013 by ZeroPhobic