Out With Drop Tables! In With Token System.

[Otaiken]

So Tokens would be like this with the possibility of finding some in the level

 

Survival

T1 = 1 token for every 10 minutes survived

T2 = 1 token fore every 5 minutes survived

T3 = 2 token for every 5 minutes survived

 

"Generally is the smallest area"

 

Exterminate

T1 = 1

T2=  2

T3=  5

 

Capture

T1 = 1

T2= 2

T3= 5

 

Mobile Defense

T1 = 2

T2= 5

T3= 7

 

Defense

T1 = 1 token for every 5 waves completed

T2= 1 token for every 5  waves completed

T3= 1 token for every 2 waves completed

 

Advantage of this would be that low level missions would have some purpose. Low level players could get those tokens (though at slower rate) and have a shot at the rewards. They would no longer be dependable on random high level people willing to carry them through higher level missions, hell newbies could even group together.

[WarbrosNewsInternational]

Agreed, an effort based system will always be better than a luck based system.

[Relkin]

I've said it a hundred times on these forums, RNG is a crutch used to forcibly stretch out meager content with artificial game play.  Turns games into jobs which isn't cool at all.  If your even so much as thinking of going on with the burn out argument then please think first that DE has designed the game in such a way that it actively forces you to burn out i.e. play the same thing over and over and over in order to achieve anything. 

 

Tokens should replace all drop tables, not some horse S#&$ with different rarity tokens either, a single currency and reasonable prices.  Death to farmframe! Give us a real game!

[Laecerelius]

Defense wouldn't be as bad if they at least extended the system they already have in place and had higher tiers than tier 3 which would slowly start dumping the bad items until like tier 10 when you'd have nothing but rare mods, tier 3 keys, that faction's banshee part, and whatever nice loot they'd like to have in there.  Maybe start introducing the rarer nightmare mods at high tiers?  It shouldn't take them long to implement and it'd make doing really well in defenses and making it to high waves mean something.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Due to recent events regarding the droprate problems, how the current system is always under constant review, and getting broken whenever new content is introduced, I would like to recommend implementing an overhauled, token based void reward system instead of the current RNG based system. The idea first emerged around the time void keys were introduced, and was later referred by DE_Steve during one of the livestream.

This system would:

- replace luck in the current system with a certain, clear and attainable goals.

- allow players to get what they wanted with a bit of effort(read: not grind, gameplay.)

- Exchange tokens acquired by players over void exploration and runs for items they want from the token shop.

The way players would get tokens could depend on either:

- how much the players explored the void - vaults, side rooms, etc.,

- end level rewards like it was with events scaled by mission level.

The items token cost(acquisition rate) would be predetermined, set, reflect and depend on:

- Their original place in the rng based droptables as to this so we for once stop.

I generally like this idea, but one thing I'd do is include the old system as an option. Because some people actually do like the current drop system.

Like, I envision a defense-like screen coming up with "take a token" and "take a chance" as options.

[Genuinetheo]

I've said it a hundred times on these forums, RNG is a crutch used to forcibly stretch out meager content with artificial game play.  Turns games into jobs which isn't cool at all.  If your even so much as thinking of going on with the burn out argument then please think first that DE has designed the game in such a way that it actively forces you to burn out i.e. play the same thing over and over and over in order to achieve anything. 

 

Tokens should replace all drop tables, not some horse S#&$ with different rarity tokens either, a single currency and reasonable prices.  Death to farmframe! Give us a real game!

 

The system might be good for consistency, allowing ease of choice, but will not alleviate any "farming" issues. If anything this will encourage more farming once you have successfully bought everything you wanted from the shop. After all, to stock up on tokens to buy future weapon releases involves farming the void for them. 

[Unknown924]

I generally like this idea, but one thing I'd do is include the old system as an option. Because some people actually do like the current drop system.

Like, I envision a defense-like screen coming up with "take a token" and "take a chance" as options.

That would be nice.  Another to way include the old system is adding a slot machine of sorts that uses tokens.  The tier you spin at would be determined by the amount of tokens you spend.  The table type could be selected by players or based on the last void mission you did.  I don't see myself using it but I am sure there are people who would.

[tmtke]

Basically I would only modify the drops this way:

- the players in the actual run doesn't supposed to get the same drops

- first randomisation determining the drop type mod/res/ammunition/globes/etc. (on multiple drops, like on bosses, can be fixed types also for BPs or something)

- on ammunition/globe drops there is not much to do, in other cases carry on to the next step (as many times we need to, eg. multiple drops)

- the second randomisation is determining the rarity, modified by enemy level

- balance the drop table (which is already attached to the actual enemy type) considering your actual inventory lowering the rates on drops that you already have

- third randomisation gives the final drop from the resulting table

Also, like with planet system resources, there should be a logic behind what to get and where. It is partly implemented, but should get some logical constraints, like "oh, I want some rifle pimping mod, so I should go to that planet's xy level, where that corpus weapon factory is located". This way you might got some other weapon mods as well, but far less reach or warframe mods, etc.

[plznohurtme]

The only way the can keep this going is to make more tilesets and/or game modes. That is vastly harder than just making token system. Since you need to make a place for every new thing to drop, that pretty much doubles your work. Token system is just a start, feel free to provide different suggestion, but the current system is not only clunky and impractical (and rage inducing), it's also exploitative by nature and unsustainable.

Something has to change.. we need different system, not neccessarily token system, but different system.

There have been many suggestion, for example lowering/removing the chance for a particular thing to drop after you already have it. So once you get those 5 helmets or whatever it won't drop anymore. There are alternatives out there.

Here's where you're completely utterly wrong and hopefully people will understand that it isn't RNG that is the problem, or creating new content. Its more efficiently distributing existing rewards through different places. Not to mention the fact that most of the game modes found throughout the planets do not have any sort of mission completion reward (yet another place things can be added to, even if just mods).

A perfect example right now is the Orokin Void: there are a maximum of 15 different missions (5 mission types, 3 tiers per mission type). I added up 37 end of mission rewards (I may have missed some I wasn't being super thorough on it) which means that the pool isn't really all that diluted, it just ends up being so because of the stupid way that drops are handled. It is just a matter of balancing parts locations and how many can be a potential reward and what percentage chance is wanted. Even if they had 10 rewards per mission possible (allowing for up to 150 pieces if evenly split) everything would still have a 10% chance of dropping. This is assuming 4x as many items as currently exist.

The same thing can be said for the regular missions... There are 14 planets + 2 voids right now... that is a ton of content to spread items out through. Hell they could even add stuff to the boss drop tables and just make it so something drops every time you kill the boss (similar to voids). That'd be 14 more locations right there that could easily add 3-5 items to (depending on wanted rarity) which is already in the game and requires no massive rework of any systems.

It's just a matter of putting them into tables and telling everyone where they are. They can easily add thousands of things to the table, they just need to not have everything dropping everywhere. This is why their system seems so bad right now and why people seem to believe tokens are the answer. Tokens would completely ruin the experimentation that happens now due to the RNG nature of the game. There are so many huge drawbacks and no actual advantage... unless of course you play this game for no reason other than the next shiny piece of loot in which case of course you'd want tokens.

Edited September 20, 2013 by plznohurtme

[AceViper]

Then the tokens would be rare as hell, then there would be a large requirement. Like a new awesome item, but you need 5000 tokens. After seeing the ungodly high cost for the new Clan tech, I wouldn't be suprised.

 They wouldn't need to be rare but obtained through specific mission like assassination or void and a quantity according the difficulty. Encouraging high level mission, benefiting those hi level player while still allowing new player to have a shot at them without being carried like some one said already. Clan tech could stay the same as there is already a very hi resource demand research cost.

 

They would have to do it in a way that buying Void key packs wont become obsolete.

 Void missions could give more tokens or a "void token" then other missions so it would keep the value of void keys or even make them worth more in some cases.

 

Yeah, at the rate they are adding new Primes it is just too much of a grind for too little benefit. Most primes are a MINOR upgrade (other than arguably the Paris Prime, and obviously the Latron Prime), and they are nearly impossible to get right now. Statistically speaking, it should take a few hundred void runs just to get all the parts for some of them. That doesn't include the runs to get the void keys or the other materials like Orokin Cells.

 

Primes are already a bad system as is, too. It takes so long to get them that you'll have another weapon or frame fully loaded before you finish the Prime. Then, if you have a potato in your basic weapon, you basically just wasted it. I've held off getting a Latron since I started playing this game because the Prime version is so much better, but I still haven't finished it.

 This would put a end to the luck factor make everyone have the same odds of getting the items desired as for costs they would need to be balanced accounting the rarity but not more impossible to get.

 

The only problem with token system is that it would give DE excuse to place 50 tokens per Helmet,Chassis,Systems BP. And bosses would drop only 1 token per run.

 In which case everyone would have the same odds of getting it and it would not favor the luck, so that you wouldn't go "hey i have done 100 runs on Vor and can't find seer bp.""hey i did 3 runs and i got all pieces" kind of situation, which is clearly unfair. But this is just about the situation that drops are very unbalanced and keep breaking on every item added then the numbers that each piece will or must cost, as that is something to be discussed in case this system is used.

 

There was talk of a token system in a couple livestreams back when the first void droprate fiasco was in full swing.  I believe it was said that it was something the devs would consider looking into but were unsure of.  Well, if the post-U10 backlash is any indication, I have a feeling we might see them looking into it a bit more closely in the near future.

 

But yeah, +1 to a token system or a token/drop hybrid system.

 I am hoping so to, but do not forget that this system will remove luck and possibly increase the grind wall if not implemented correctly. Also a hybrid system could be so food for thought.

 

This is a great idea, and absolutely removes the dilution/bloat problem happening with the drop tables.

Mods/ammo/materials can still stay the same, but putting out tokens to acquire "rare" blueprints like prime weapon parts, Warframe parts, and the like would be a great step in the right direction.

• Void tokens could be used to acquire prime parts/blueprints with different amounts required for each piece. Forma and Potatoes might also be available from this though expensive.
• Derelict tokens could be used to acquire bulk crafting materials like mutagen samples and golem navs.
• Boss tokens could be used to acquire items that normally drop from them. Vor tokens could be used to get Seer, Hek Tokens could be used to get Trinity Parts, ect...

 Indeed if this system were to be placed in action I thing various types of token would be the most logic approach.

 

I like this idea. DE should reward grinders, not people who bribe the RNG to give them the most impossible loots within their first few runs lol.

 Like DE said already in the past, if you don't want to farm you can buy it with platinum this would also aply for void keys so it would benefit those that buy while still allowing those that grind to get the items as this is a free to play game.

 

Advantage of this would be that low level missions would have some purpose. Low level players could get those tokens (though at slower rate) and have a shot at the rewards. They would no longer be dependable on random high level people willing to carry them through higher level missions, hell newbies could even group together.

Again this isn't about numbers yet but that is part of the idea behind it.

[Silvershadow66]

Due to recent events regarding the droprate problems, how the current system is always under constant review, and getting broken whenever new content is introduced, I would like to recommend implementing an overhauled, token based void reward system instead of the current RNG based system. The idea first emerged around the time void keys were introduced, and was later referred by DE_Steve during one of the livestream.

This system would:

- replace luck in the current system with a certain, clear and attainable goals.

- allow players to get what they wanted with a bit of effort(read: not grind, gameplay.)

- Exchange tokens acquired by players over void exploration and runs for items they want from the token shop.

The way players would get tokens could depend on either:

- how much the players explored the void - vaults, side rooms, etc.,

- end level rewards like it was with events scaled by mission level.

The items token cost(acquisition rate) would be predetermined, set, reflect and depend on:

- Their original place in the rng based droptables as to this so we for once stop.

 

No. Bad idea. Very Bad Idea.

 

The game needs people willing to play for hours and hours to farm the next bit of a frame or weapon.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Silvershadow66

[se05239]

With less RNG involved, the game would be more fun and less frustrating.

If I achieved all my goals, I would still play the game cause I like the game overall.

Its just the RNG part of the game that I heavily dislike.

That and Nano Spores.

[neKroMancer]

I don't believe that turning RNG mechanic into Token mechanic will solve the grind trouble, only lessen the bad luck streak. Time taken to get one item will be the same for most players. RNG must give the reward enough to feel that players have a shot at getting thing that they want.

I think creating more chances to get the reward is the way to counterbalance the RNG. Adding more subbosses with special ability like the Captain mentioned in the livestream and give them drop table with these BPs as rare drop. A traditional path to deal with RNG in ARPG genre. Same thing happened with the Grineer commander that dropped Trinity BPs a while back. While players don't know which BP will be dropped, they know that this enemy has BP drop chance and started killing the commander.

Drop rate for system can be as low as 1% in this case to prevent the game's longevity from being compromised.

[Qynchou]

Why would I need this when I have almost everything already? No matter how many weapons they put out or how many new frames they release I wont bother playing again (and many other people wont) as long as I cant customize my frame.

 

Mod 1.0 was good, you had to make choices, then they decided to increase your mod slot count by about 3-5 times, however they didnt release as many new mods accordingly. Its all about redirection/vitality/flow etc etc.

[wkfire]

Is it possible for both to be implemented at the same time? RNG and Token.

 

RNG works like the usual end mission rewards. Tokens will be found in crates/containers/enemy drops, like the Nav Coord just that it drops from enemies too. 

[Madotsuki]

I'd say that the token acquisition should be split into two parts - mission reward, and drops.

For the mission reward part, completing a Void run will give you a set amount of tokens, based on tier and accomplishment. For example, completing a T1 would give you 3 tokens, completing a T2 would give 6, and a T3 would give 10. There could be a multiplier added to this mission reward based on Survival time or Defense wave numbers, so the better you did (also more time spent on the run), the better your tokens per key.

The drops part would have tokens drop via RNG from enemy kills and loot chests, similar to the nav co-ordinates. The drop chance from enemies would increase with enemy level, while vaults/secrets and side-rooms would have several times the drop rate from chests and lockers compared to the main path. This keeps an aspect of randomness to the game to keep it interesting, and also motivates exploration and killing/looting everything for additional tokens.

Seriously, a token system would be a complete u-turn and fix practically ALL the problems that the Void currently has, namely the droprates of items people are aiming for.

[HellishWind]

fk rng

[Corodix]

I'd love to see a token system for the void, especially if you could gain extra tokens from completing those parkour rooms in the void. Even if it were to take slightly longer to get stuff with a token system than with the current rng system, with the token system you can see that you are making progress and thus it won't feel as if it's taking longer.

[arche]

In the end. Majority of you are complaining about how you all are unable to get the parts you want. The main reason is the lack of patience. The token system wouldn't solve anything. In fact, it will make it worst. One would lose the will to farm for the token for the items you want, because you already know how much token you can get for doing the mission, will that not make the game more boring? I have never seen a game without the need of a little luck. The token system will make this more of a grindfeast and less of a gameplay where you feel excitement when you reach the end and cross your finger and hope you get the part you want. Example, playing a T3 defense for what? 20tokens? And a paris prime bp might cost 200? 10 games? And with the current rng system i can get other weapon parts and not just what i want in 10 runs. so no to token system. However, this is just my opinion. I will follow and support the DE regardless of what they choose.

Edited September 21, 2013 by arche

[Corodix]

It took me over 200 tries (yeah, I counted the blueprints at the end) to get all the Rhino parts. And yeah, I have no desire to play that boss ever again, I'm totally sick of that piece of content, which is a shame since the game doesn't have that much content to start with....

The odds at getting some of the objects from the void are less than 1%, it's due to stuff like that that I don't even bother with the void right now, it could easily take 250 tries to get a part that has a 1% drop chance (there's a 9% chance of it taking 250 tries). The entire rng is messed up, so I just don't even bother. If the odds were way better or there was a token system then I'd even buy void  keys, but right now with the rng system it's not worth it. And the more prime items they add the worse it becomes.A token system could still require a little luck, after all the amount of tokens in the reward doesn't have to be static, it could be a range just like any other resource in game.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Corodix

[Dead_Rabbits]

way more grind in the end, nty.

[Ayarai]

In the end. Majority of you are complaining about how you all are unable to get the parts you want. The main reason is the lack of patience. The token system wouldn't solve anything. In fact, it will make it worst. One would lose the will to farm for the token for the items you want, because you already know how much token you can get for doing the mission, will that not make the game more boring?

 

It isn't so much about the lack of patience, but instead it is about wanting to feel that your efforts are rewarded. When I spend hours upon hours of grinding for the Void keys and then completing the Void missions with them, I don't feel any sort of excitement when the reward screen appears... Instead I feel dread that once again the RNG will roll yet another duplicate part and all those hours spent were for nothing.

 

With a token system, there would be a clear goal and each time you would complete a Void mission, it would be guaranteed that you would make some amount of progress towards a part you want to obtain.

 

Now if we take a silly real life analogy: If you had to choose between two different but equally fun places to work at. Place A would offer you a paycheck at the end of the month for the work you have done. While Place B would make you take part in a lottery where you would have to roll between blank pieces of paper, monopoly money, lunch money or your paycheck - which of the two would you like to work at?

[W00DSTER]

Honestly I dislike the idea of a token system it seems redundant.(if one is implemented I might just have to do some chargebacks I really dislike tokens hence my post in this thread.)

 

Having multiple loot tables based on mission and tier should make it easier. Instead of one list with 100 items you have 10 lists with 10 items all have an equal chance to drop that is how I have modded drop tables in some old videogames I played. i.e summoner from 2000 I could edit the vpp files.

 

there were separate files for different types of bad guys ex an archer and a warrior.

they had different loot tables.

just add that kind of system for the void.

 

for example: void exterminate only gives a chance for weapon bps and void defense gives warframe bps

[FrostWolf]

In the end. Majority of you are complaining about how you all are unable to get the parts you want. The main reason is the lack of patience. The token system wouldn't solve anything. In fact, it will make it worst. One would lose the will to farm for the token for the items you want, because you already know how much token you can get for doing the mission, will that not make the game more boring? I have never seen a game without the need of a little luck. The token system will make this more of a grindfeast and less of a gameplay where you feel excitement when you reach the end and cross your finger and hope you get the part you want. Example, playing a T3 defense for what? 20tokens? And a paris prime bp might cost 200? 10 games? And with the current rng system i can get other weapon parts and not just what i want in 10 runs. so no to token system. However, this is just my opinion. I will follow and support the DE regardless of what they choose.

 

So you complain about people not having patience.... and then admit you wouldn't have the patience to simply grind for something.

 

and you can also potential get the same part over and over and over, which leads to burnout faster then anything when you feel you are not making progress toward anything and you're just spinning your wheels.

 

 

While yes the Costs would be up to DE -who hopefully would not go overboard on the price- You'd still have a clear feeling of progression as opposed too I'm gonna burn a weeks worth of keys and "Hope" I get what I want.

[MasterZalm]

I would like to recommend implementing an overhauled, token based void reward system instead of the current RNG based system.