Reroll one Nightwave challenge once a week (Idea)

[Arcanys12]

I think at least 1 Nightwave mission challenge should be rerollable once per week. That way, players who can't do a certain challenge or simply really don't want to, have a chance to get a challenge they'd want to tackle. I bring this idea up mainly because some of my friends can't do challenges like the Profit Taker one. This could also be a solution for players who really despise the Index challenges as well (the win the Index three times without letting te enemy deposit once). In any case, it would definitely appease some of the complaints Nightwave's been getting from old and new players alike.

It could work similarly to how rivens get rerolled where you can choose to keep the new generated challenge or the original one. The cost of this could be a certain amount of the current Nightwave currency or it could be considered a free reroll. If DE did decide to give it a cost, it should probably scale according to the challenge reward, meaning higher paying challenges cost more than those worth only 1000 creds. 

A system like this wouldn't be anything new for an online game. I know a lot of old mmo's that let you switch out your daily/weekly missions once a week.

 

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

What happens if somebody rerolls a challenge and they don't wan to do that one either? If it's still random what challenge you'd get you'd be better off just doing the original challenge.

[Arcanys12]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

What happens if somebody rerolls a challenge and they don't wan to do that one either? If it's still random what challenge you'd get you'd be better off just doing the original challenge.

In that case you'd pick the original challenge on the screen instead of the new one. It's still rng but you get a chance at a better one, just like with rivens. Not every reroll is guaranteed to give you what you want but you at least get the chance at something better. This is also why I'd prefer the rerolls to be free, but by now I've seen that DE prefers to add a resource price to these things.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

What happens if somebody rerolls a challenge and they don't wan to do that one either? If it's still random what challenge you'd get you'd be better off just doing the original challenge.

Why does something have to happen? It's RNG - you're taking a chance on potentially getting a better challenge. Maybe give the player the option to hang onto their original challenge if they don't like the new roll while still consuming the reroll. Plenty of games have that option. Vermintide 2 allows you to reroll one daily challenge per day, The Division allows you to give up on dailies if you take too long and skip straight to the next daily, etc.

The bigger problem here is that Warframe doesn't have a system for procedurally generating Nightwave challenges per-player. All players share the same challenges, so rerolling a challenge is always going to put a player at a disadvantage. When everyone has the same challenges, it's potentially easier to find groups to carry you through yours since everyone's going to want to do the same challenges anyway. Rerolling a challenge, on the other hand, puts you out of sync with the rest of the playerbase.

Me personally, I'd rather have challenges randomly generated per player whereby this wouldn't be much of an issue, but we need to work with the system we have.

[Velothed]

I havn't had a problem with a challange yet, but I really like this idea, especially for newish players. It would also help with many of the problems people are still having with nightwave.

[Aldain]

I had this idea a while back, my idea in a nutshell was "Roll one, Pick one of three at the same level or pass on the reroll if none satisfy (non-refundable no rollovers)".

The common counter point was the re-rolls causing a desync in the playerbase and the goals, which can run counter to what Nightwave (sorta?) set out to do.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

18 hours ago, Arcanys12 said:

I think at least 1 Nightwave mission challenge should be rerollable once per week. That way, players who can't do a certain challenge or simply really don't want to, have a chance to get a challenge they'd want to tackle. I bring this idea up mainly because some of my friends can't do challenges like the Profit Taker one. This could also be a solution for players who really despise the Index challenges as well (the win the Index three times without letting te enemy deposit once). In any case, it would definitely appease some of the complaints Nightwave's been getting from old and new players alike.

It could work similarly to how rivens get rerolled where you can choose to keep the new generated challenge or the original one. The cost of this could be a certain amount of the current Nightwave currency or it could be considered a free reroll. If DE did decide to give it a cost, it should probably scale according to the challenge reward, meaning higher paying challenges cost more than those worth only 1000 creds. 

A system like this wouldn't be anything new for an online game. I know a lot of old mmo's that let you switch out your daily/weekly missions once a week.

 

Why? 

We don't need to do all of them to make it to rank 30. Skipping a single challenge each week isn't going to keep you from the rewards. So why should we add in something complicated for no good reason apart from "I don't really want to do this challenge"? 

[Arcanys12]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Why? 

We don't need to do all of them to make it to rank 30. Skipping a single challenge each week isn't going to keep you from the rewards. So why should we add in something complicated for no good reason apart from "I don't really want to do this challenge"? 

Why not? It would also help those who can't play Warfame every week or can't actually do some of the challenges. And skipping 1 challenge every week won't do much, but if you can't play every week or if you keep getting two or more challenges that you can't do/don't have time to do does pose a problem. 

And a system like this isn't really that complicated at all. Like I said, lots of games had/have something like that for their weekly quests. From a developer standpoint it shouldn't be that much work to implement it, since the daily challenges are already randomly generated each and every day. 

[Arcanys12]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I had this idea a while back, my idea in a nutshell was "Roll one, Pick one of three at the same level or pass on the reroll if none satisfy (non-refundable no rollovers)".

The common counter point was the re-rolls causing a desync in the playerbase and the goals, which can run counter to what Nightwave (sorta?) set out to do.

From my experience, very few people actually do these challenges pre-planned. Still, a desync would be frustrating for challenges like the index one or the like, so that's a good counter-argument. Thanks for bringing it up 🙂

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Arcanys12 said:

Why not? It would also help those who can't play Warfame every week or can't actually do some of the challenges. And skipping 1 challenge every week won't do much, but if you can't play every week or if you keep getting two or more challenges that you can't do/don't have time to do does pose a problem. 

And a system like this isn't really that complicated at all. Like I said, lots of games had/have something like that for their weekly quests. From a developer standpoint it shouldn't be that much work to implement it, since the daily challenges are already randomly generated each and every day. 

"Why not" isn't a reason for doing something, and it is very much not a reason to demand that others do something for you. 

 

As for your fear of missing out and the plaintive cry of "but what if I miss out on a week 😭 ", my response is "show me your math". 

Seriously. Do the math and see how many challenges you can skip and still get to tier 30. 

[Arcanys12]

" not a reason to demand that others do something for you"

I'm not demanding anything. I'm proposing an idea.  If you can't deal with that, why are you on this forum at all? Whether or not DE decides to implement anything like it, is ultimately their choice which is a fact. But that doesn't mean players can't give suggestions to existing systems or spitball ideas with other players. That's what this forum is for.

As for the math... You get about 3 ranks each week on average. If the series runs for 10 weeks, you get maybe 1-2 weeks of breathing room each series if you do all the weekly challenges + dailies. Now if you have someone who can only play once every few days or has to go somewhere for a few weeks (like summer vacation), that's not enough time to get to rank 30. Even worse if they go somewhere and when they come they have a few challenges which they can't do in game- like the Profit Taker fight which requires you to be max standing with Solaris United. 

Please don't pretend that warframe never implemented systems for player convenience. The Rivens, PoE and changes to Arbitrations are more than enough to disprove that. 

 

 

[1frogmaster]

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Why? 

We don't need to do all of them to make it to rank 30. Skipping a single challenge each week isn't going to keep you from the rewards. So why should we add in something complicated for no good reason apart from "I don't really want to do this challenge"? 

I find that if you can reroll one you can't do, like kill profit taker, it then will give you the chance to get to the previous weeks. If you can't do what's there, you can't go back, so ones like Profit Taker become an impossible stopper for new players.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

"Why not" isn't a reason for doing something, and it is very much not a reason to demand that others do something for you. 

 

As for your fear of missing out and the plaintive cry of "but what if I miss out on a week 😭 ", my response is "show me your math". 

Seriously. Do the math and see how many challenges you can skip and still get to tier 30. 

Wait, you're mad that someone has a nifty idea? They're not forcing this on anyone, it's simply and idea that I like. Consider the folk that can't play often, maybe once a week. If they join and do some nightwave when they get on, but can never finish it, they need the system to go back to the previous weeks.

Now, as you can see, this works perfectly, they get a weekend off, and can go back to catch up, however, if they are like the friend that I have, they can't do some, like kill profit taker, and so now they can't actually go back to other weeks. This is an issue, and if they could maybe solve it with a simple reroll, that would be great. This reroll system would of course need to make it so that if you do reroll, it will not duplicate, but give you a guarantee of new challenges.

If you disagree, say that and move on.

[Flashbinder]

I feel that the 3 different challenges should have their own re-rolls (but I'm asking for too much here). Daily nightwave challenges should have a once a day re-roll, the middle nightwave challenges (4,500) should have a re-roll every 3 days, and the elite ones should have a once a week re-roll. This way people who don't like/can't access a certain challenge can simply re-roll that one. It'd make things a lot more QoL for most people.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

I find that if you can reroll one you can't do, like kill profit taker, it then will give you the chance to get to the previous weeks. If you can't do what's there, you can't go back, so ones like Profit Taker become an impossible stopper for new players.

Except that we have 2 months to go, so if you spend a month getting to that stage, you will be able to come back on a week where you are able to complete it. 

And if a person isn't able to complete one of the elites in any given week, that won't exclude them from the tiers after 10 weeks. And with more than 10 weeks, missing a week flat out still won't preclude them from getting to tier 30, even if they miss out on an elite in every other week. 

So again this really isn't needed, except for people who can't complete lots of challenges, and miss many weeks, in which case, expecting to be entitled to all of the rewards, is.... beyond the realm of reason. 

Which leads us to exactly such a claim:

4 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

Consider the folk that can't play often, maybe once a week. If they join and do some nightwave when they get on, but can never finish it, they need the system to go back to the previous weeks.

4 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

Wait, you're mad that someone has a nifty idea? They're not forcing this on anyone, it's simply and idea that I like.

No they haven't shown it to be a nifty idea other than saying "why not". As I indicated that's never a good reason to demand that others put in a lot of effort to accommodate their request. 

I explained that showing the math would be a better idea. I did that because I know that the math will not bear out the need for the suggested changes. 

4 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

Now, as you can see, this works perfectly, they get a weekend off, and can go back to catch up, however, if they are like the friend that I have, they can't do some, like kill profit taker, and so now they can't actually go back to other weeks. This is an issue, and if they could maybe solve it with a simple reroll, that would be great. This reroll system would of course need to make it so that if you do reroll, it will not duplicate, but give you a guarantee of new challenges.

Do the math. Show your working to let us know how many weeks can be totally skipped. Then tell us how many of each challenge you are allowed to just never do. Then look at the possibilities, and explain why you still think that it is needed. 

I did the math for the first nightwave, and was faced with people who were surprised and just hadn't actually given any thought to it, while they were busy claiming that the sky was falling. This time I am going to leave it to you to show me that you lot have a clue about what you are on about. 

4 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

If you disagree, say that and move on.

Excuse you? 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, Arcanys12 said:

" not a reason to demand that others do something for you"

I'm not demanding anything. I'm proposing an idea.  If you can't deal with that, why are you on this forum at all? Whether or not DE decides to implement anything like it, is ultimately their choice which is a fact. But that doesn't mean players can't give suggestions to existing systems or spitball ideas with other players. That's what this forum is for.

As for the math... You get about 3 ranks each week on average. If the series runs for 10 weeks, you get maybe 1-2 weeks of breathing room each series if you do all the weekly challenges + dailies. Now if you have someone who can only play once every few days or has to go somewhere for a few weeks (like summer vacation), that's not enough time to get to rank 30. Even worse if they go somewhere and when they come they have a few challenges which they can't do in game- like the Profit Taker fight which requires you to be max standing with Solaris United. 

Please don't pretend that warframe never implemented systems for player convenience. The Rivens, PoE and changes to Arbitrations are more than enough to disprove that. 

 

 

Quoting would have been better, and easier, don't you think? 

I also see a bit of weak, guesswork math and a lot of words that boil down to "I'm able to say whatever I want because I'm entitled".

Let's look at some of the issues with the math, shall we? 

43.5k ≠ about 3 ranks per week. 

10 weeks - 6.9 weeks ≠ 1-2 weeks breathing room in a 10 week season. 

And best of all, sometimes 10 weeks minimum ≠ 10 weeks. 

As my high school math teacher used to say "no working shown; zero marks; keep this up and you will be put in the remedial class." May want to actually show (read, do) your calculations next time. 

[Thrymm]

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

"Why not" isn't a reason for doing something, and it is very much not a reason to demand that others do something for you.

"Why not" is possibly the very best reason for doing something!  Of course, next to that are the reasons why.

Why not have more choice?  Why have more choice....more player satisfaction.

Why not please more people?  Why please more people?  Umm....I'm not explaining that one.

Why not ask developers to develop game content that you want, in the feedback forum that they provide?  Providing feedback is very much what this forum is for, and damn near every aspect of this game that you've played has been skewed by player feedback in some way.

So, why do we offer feedback?  To give ideas that might offer more player satisfaction, often through choices or quality of life improvement.

Why not have tools to make tasks desirable?  At that point, a person might wonder "why don't we have them already?"

So why not ask for features?  The reason why you do it, especially here, is because DE is historically responsive to good ideas and it's what this forum is for in order to stay on topic in the first place!

The fact that you can make it without doing them all isn't relevant.  Nightwave challenges have been heavily modified and some have been added, others taken away, due to player popularity and feedback.

The fact that all tasks may continue to not be desirable to all people is relevant. A simple tool(seriously, where did this notion that something like this would be complicated come from?) that would have the potential to increase player choice and popularity of assigned challenges seems like a pretty good idea.

And heck, why not?  We haven't seen a compelling reason why not yet.  Not needing it isn't a compelling reason at all---this is a game, we don't need any of it.  None of the game is "needed".  We don't need it to be the way it is, either, and yet...it is.

[1frogmaster]

3 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

The fact that all tasks may continue to not be desirable to all people is relevant. A simple tool(seriously, where did this notion that something like this would be complicated come from?) that would have the potential to increase player choice and popularity of assigned challenges seems like a pretty good idea.

And heck, why not?  We haven't seen a compelling reason why not yet.  Not needing it isn't a compelling reason at all---this is a game, we don't need any of it.  None of the game is "needed".  We don't need it to be the way it is, either, and yet...it is.

This is exactly my thought process. It's a game, giving choice is never a bad idea. Offering suggestions is always a welcome idea.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Do the math. Show your working to let us know how many weeks can be totally skipped. Then tell us how many of each challenge you are allowed to just never do. Then look at the possibilities, and explain why you still think that it is needed. 

I agree with you. I had no problems with completing any of the nightwave, ever. It's never been a struggle no matter what they push to us. However, you have to consider that I'm a player who has everything unlocked and available, so asking me to do something isn't hard for them to do, ever.

What you need to take into account is all of the users who are new to the game. If someone joined, let's say, 2 months ago. Enough time to get their void beams and enough to get to Sedna, heck, even enough time to get all the nodes unlocked like I did, you would still struggle with a lot of the challenges. Image having to fight profit taker, but you're only a mastery 7. You didn't know what this whole nightwave thing was until recent, or you decided to jump back into the game. You don't 'know' to farm mastery, because it doesn't seem appealing to you. You'd rather just farm what you want to play, like most games might have you believe. You'd need to get to max standing with Solaris United first and then start the fights.

You'd need, 240k standing to get to Old Mate. That's 30 days of farming or 4 weeks. Now it's week 7. You can finally fight profit taker, assuming you capped your standing every single day, without missing one, and having all the level up required items. Let's just assume that to make it easy. You finally get a chance to fight it and, what's that? You can't deal any damage because the only mods you have are Streamline, Flow, Vitality, Redirection, Warm Coat, and Toxic Flight. Mind you, you don't know what a catalyst is, you can't max all your mods, and you're playing Mag. Like, this is an impossible scenario for a newer player.

Now I ask you, "Why not?" 

Like, just look at that. Why not give newer players, or older players who just don't want to do the option a different choice? It's just a video game. Giving more choices keeps people tied to the game, that's the whole point of Nightwave anyways right?

This doesn't need to be an argument, it's a suggestion that could improve the gameplay for new and old players.

Consider someone like me. I have every gilded thing in the game. I didn't want to do the gild and item mission. Why would I? I have them all, and it would be a waste of time. If they just offered a way to roll this, no one would've complained. People like me would've just used our roll on that option. How simple of a fix is that? (I do know they removed it, however, this will still apply to any others that get hit with criticism like this one did).

 

Now I ask you again, "Why not?"

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, Thrymm said:

"Why not" is possibly the very best reason for doing something!  Of course, next to that are the reasons why.

Nice claim, but even you realised that you were better off by presenting reasons for doing something. That's what you did immediately after writing this, so we both know that "why not" wasn't as powerful a motivation as those stock photos, with pseudo-inspirational quotes that random people with too much time on their hands like to make, try to suggest. 

 

5 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Why not ask developers to develop game content that you want, in the feedback forum that they provide?  Providing feedback is very much what this forum is for, and damn near every aspect of this game that you've played has been skewed by player feedback in some way.

Yes the forum is for feedback, and constructive feedback is a great thing. But when asked why something that you are proposing should be done, "why? Why not? " isn't. It's just a lazy attempt to shift the burden onto someone else to justify why your unnecessary demands, that will require someone else to do something complicated, shouldn't be met. 

 

5 hours ago, Thrymm said:

So, why do we offer feedback?  To give ideas that might offer more player satisfaction, often through choices or quality of life improvement.

Fantastic, but many ideas that people come up with, are just "woft"s. Something that they didn't actually think through, blurt out onto a page as a suggestion for someone else to put work into, because they think it might be cool. 

The word you used is "improvement", I'm cool with improvement. I however don't support "well we don't really need it, but let's go ahead and create something complicated, because I worry about one challenge that I can't do and fear that not being able to do it, I would be unable to accumulate enough points and my irrational fear of missing out is kicking in, so I'll propose a system that even the people who support me recognize might leave me in an equally undesirable situation". That's not an "improvement" in my eyes. And that brings us to:

5 hours ago, Thrymm said:

The fact that all tasks may continue to not be desirable to all people is relevant. A simple tool(seriously, where did this notion that something like this would be complicated come from?) that would have the potential to increase player choice and popularity of assigned challenges seems like a pretty good idea.

Claiming that it's irrelevant is just lazy. Show it to be. Because what many people have missed is that nightwave challenges are meant to be done by all of us. Together. If a newb doesn't have the bait to catch the fish, they can ask a vet if they can tag along. If someone doesn't have all of the ingredients for 3 apothics, they can ask others to take them farming. If weaker players don't stand a chance at nightmare, spy, ODD, index, ESO, whatever, it's ok, because they have the support system of the community who are all doing those things anyway. 

Wanna try to get a newb to do a "no score index" when the rest of the community doesn't have that objective? That's really relevant, especially because you're proposing a "QOL" that could just as easily cause a lot of grief. Then you would need to fix, your "fix". That's a terrible way to go about doing things, Tenno. 

As far as it being "not complicated", my obvious response is to ask, "you wrote the code for it yet"? If not, do it up by lunchtime and post it for us to check out. Remember, not everyone has their heads in "programming mode" so sprinkle in a lot of comments so everyone can follow along. 

You see? Everything is "easy" when someone else has to do the work. That's why you don't just toss out "why not" as a reason for other people when you are demanding that they do something for you. 

5 hours ago, Thrymm said:

And heck, why not?  We haven't seen a compelling reason why not yet.  Not needing it isn't a compelling reason at all---this is a game, we don't need any of it.  None of the game is "needed".  We don't need it to be the way it is, either, and yet...it is.

There you go trying to shift the onus. Instead of providing solid reasons to do it, you are asking for reasons to not have someone else put the work in on your behalf. When they could be spending their energy elsewhere on something that could be an actual improvement. 

That's not a winning strategy. 

 

5 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

I agree with you. I had no problems with completing any of the nightwave, ever. It's never been a struggle no matter what they push to us. However, you have to consider that I'm a player who has everything unlocked and available, so asking me to do something isn't hard for them to do, ever.

You mean a player like me? Ok..... Yeah I'm considering that, since I am a player who can't actually do some of the challenges, and accept will forego those points, as I did in the past. From what you said there, it looks like you don't actually have first hand experience with that situation? But you're advocating on behalf of... Me? Not me? Someone who isn't us? 

Oh... Hold on, you went ahead and expanded, you're thinking of someone who is simultaneously a complete newb, with all nodes unlocked, and is just probably not going to be able to make it to tier 30 at all. (Your word was "impossible".) Ok.....

But if they're unable to complete enough of the event, why are you expecting them to be entitled to all of the rewards? Note well, Tenno, I wrote "enough". They don't need all of the available standing.

During NW1 we needed just more than half, of the available standing. At least one player was able to make it up to tier 60.

So let's look at it dispassionately:

Even missing a whole tier's worth of points a week, you will end up in prestige ranks after 10 weeks. Missing a whole 3 weeks worth of points, you'd still be in prestige ranks after 10 weeks. 

I'm a very cynical person but what I see your proposal as isn't "helping players get to rank 30", it's "helping the strongest amongst us to get as many potatoes as possible". 

Since weaker players, like the newb with no mods you envisioned, will still fail to make the grade, I really don't see significant benefit in the implementation of the suggestion to them. To you and I, who will hit rank 30 partway through, there's benefit, but we're in the least need of the help. Wouldn't it be a lot better to find a different way for us to earn the extra standing? 

Edited July 26, 2019 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Minor correction

[Arcanys12]

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nice claim, but even you realised that you were better off by presenting reasons for doing something. That's what you did immediately after writing this, so we both know that "why not" wasn't as powerful a motivation as those stock photos, with pseudo-inspirational quotes that random people with too much time on their hands like to make, try to suggest. 

Yes, "why not" isn't a strong argument. But I had already explained the "Why" of such a system and it's benefits in my very first post. And I'm not repeating myself a 100 times just for you. I will admit though, that I'm completely confused by what you mean about "stock photos". 

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes the forum is for feedback, and constructive feedback is a great thing. But when asked why something that you are proposing should be done, "why? Why not? " isn't. It's just a lazy attempt to shift the burden onto someone else to justify why your unnecessary demands, that will require someone else to do something complicated, shouldn't be met.

Except, again, no one is making demands, just ideas, their pros and cons. At this point I'm beginning to think your either a troll or are just in here for the rep. So far you've not given any concrete input as to the downside of giving players an option to reroll a challenge. Newbies have just as much right to get to as close to rank 30 as they can and rerolling might give them the chance at a few more challenges they can do instead of ones that they can't. If that gets them a rank or two higher, then great! 

Just like the chance at rolling a better riven, they get the chance of a challenge they can do. If they get another challenge they can't do, then that's fine, because we're talking about a chance at it. If they don't want the new challenge they can pick the old one, same as the riven-reroll system. If that gets them a rank or two higher in the series, then great! There's no entitlement in having the option to do this, they still have to complete the challenge that they pick. A reroll system would indeed benefit them, because more completed challenges = more rewards= access to missions/frames/weapons and subsequently mods, that get them through more of the game's content and eventually prepare them for challenges that they might not have been able to complete before. 

Yes, veterans would also benefit from it by getting even more rewards by going through all 30 ranks multiple times. But, if you look at the game as it is now, they can already do that with everything in the game. They can repeatedly run high level missions, repeatedly fight bosses like Ropalolyst or the Orb Mothers, etc. and gain rewards for doing that. But, how is that a counter argument to my idea of a challenge-reroll system helping new players or giving players more options in general? 

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Wouldn't it be a lot better to find a different way for us to earn the extra standing?

I agree with you that there should be more ways to earn standing. Wolf of Saturn had the fugitives, which by themselves didn't offer much, but they appeared often enough that you could get a few ranks in if you sought them out. Even newer players could do this as they spawned in lower level missions as well. But current Nightwave series don't seem to have that (I'm including Intermission in this). At least not yet- DE might add an enemy like that later on as the current series progresses. Having more options to achieve something is never a bad thing. That's still not a counterargument on why a reroll option shouldn't exist. It's just another idea for ways to get more standing and one could just as easily apply your own arguments to it.  

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Arcanys12 said:

Yes, "why not" isn't a strong argument. But I had already explained the "Why" of such a system and it's benefits in my very first post. And I'm not repeating myself a 100 times just for you. I will admit though, that I'm completely confused by what you mean about "stock photos". 

No, you said why you want it, why you think it might be cool, but you still haven't shown why it would actually be needed. 

A single challenge each week. We're allowed to miss more than that. We can probably refuse to do between 4 and 7 in a week (for 10 weeks and still hit tier 30), with no problem and still hit prestige ranks if it's the right combination. 

That's why I said do the math. 

1 hour ago, Arcanys12 said:

Except, again, no one is making demands, just ideas, their pros and cons. At this point I'm beginning to think your either a troll or are just in here for the rep. So far you've not given any concrete input as to the downside of giving players an option to reroll a challenge. Newbies have just as much right to get to as close to rank 30 as they can and rerolling might give them the chance at a few more challenges they can do instead of ones that they can't. If that gets them a rank or two higher, then great! 

Demand, is another way of saying request, is another way of saying ask for, which is another way of saying.... Feel free to check a thesaurus at this point. 

And again, the burden isn't on me to say why it shouldn't be implemented, it's on you to show that it should. But since you insist, take your pick.... The catch up mechanic was already added, that gives us months to get to a point where we can do the challenges we missed. The fact that you would be standing newbs on their own with the challenges they end up with is a pretty huge reason for not doing what you suggest. The fact that the entire system was built around not needing to complete all of the challenges in the first place, says that what your asking for is not needed. The fact that they have other things to work on and would pull resources away from that to implement a complex system that's not needed, and wouldn't necessarily end up improving QOL for players, is another reason. 

1 hour ago, Arcanys12 said:

Newbies have just as much right to get to as close to rank 30 as they can and rerolling might give them the chance at a few more challenges they can do instead of ones that they can't. If that gets them a rank or two higher, then great! 

Just like the chance at rolling a better riven, they get the chance of a challenge they can do. If they get another challenge they can't do, then that's fine, because we're talking about a chance at it. If they don't want the new challenge they can pick the old one, same as the riven-reroll system. If that gets them a rank or two higher in the series, then great! 

You're literally repeating that one line, you notice? And since you are using newbs, we'd have to figure that the challenges to reroll are the elite ones (vets might reroll a regular weekly for convenience because they dgaf if they're soloing content that would be impossible for a newb). But for a newb all of those elite challenges probably push the envelope. So where's the benefit? 

 

1 hour ago, Arcanys12 said:

Yes, veterans would also benefit from it by getting even more rewards by going through all 30 ranks multiple times. But, if you look at the game as it is now, they can already do that with everything in the game. 

The difference is that the rewards they're going to be hoarding - potatoes, are typically rare outside of buying them. That probably isn't good for DE's bottom line. I don't particularly want to see an update that says that prime weapons and frames now need 2 potatoes each, or a new potato each time we Forma. 

 

1 hour ago, Arcanys12 said:

I agree with you that there should be more ways to earn standing. Wolf of Saturn had the fugitives, which by themselves didn't offer much, but they appeared often enough that you could get a few ranks in if you sought them out. Even newer players could do this as they spawned in lower level missions as well. But current Nightwave series don't seem to have that (I'm including Intermission in this). At least not yet- DE might add an enemy like that later on as the current series progresses.

Probably will I figure. I was thinking of a system that would pair people who had already completed the tougher challenges with weaker players to offer a lesser reward for those who already completed it. During the first NW I carried groups through silver grove, because I had extra apothics, same for the fishing challenges, and the index. But when I was doing the derelict challenges I ran into people who just wanted extra eyes to find the vaults faster who carried everyone, whether we needed it or not 😅. I haven't thought through how it would work, and I know not all challenges would be suited to such a mechanic, but the reasons for doing it this way, is that it'll benefit the weaker players, show them how to do what they can't do yet, and would encourage us all to try to help others a little more. Until I do have a firm grasp on how I think it might work, I won't be making a thread. 

1 hour ago, Arcanys12 said:

But, how is that a counter argument to my idea of a challenge-reroll system helping new players or giving players more options in general? 

This gets treated with because it's a recurring theme throughout. It bears repeating, you want something, it's not for anyone else to prove that it should not be done, but for you to prove that it should be, I've given you reasons above for why I don't think that it's actually needed. 

Now let me point out one more. One of the stated things about nightwave is that that DE wants to take us out of our comfort zones. They want us to try out things that we don't do, or wouldn't normally do. Your substitution idea runs counter to this. 

[1frogmaster]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You mean a player like me? Ok..... Yeah I'm considering that, since I am a player who can't actually do some of the challenges, and accept will forego those points, as I did in the past. From what you said there, it looks like you don't actually have first hand experience with that situation? But you're advocating on behalf of... Me? Not me? Someone who isn't us? 

Oh... Hold on, you went ahead and expanded, you're thinking of someone who is simultaneously a complete newb, with all nodes unlocked, and is just probably not going to be able to make it to tier 30 at all. (Your word was "impossible".) Ok.....

But if they're unable to complete enough of the event, why are you expecting them to be entitled to all of the rewards? Note well, Tenno, I wrote "enough". They don't need all of the available standing.

During NW1 we needed just more than half, of the available standing. At least one player was able to make it up to tier 60.

So let's look at it dispassionately:

Even missing a whole tier's worth of points a week, you will end up in prestige ranks after 10 weeks. Missing a whole 3 weeks worth of points, you'd still be in prestige ranks after 10 weeks. 

I'm a very cynical person but what I see your proposal as isn't "helping players get to rank 30", it's "helping the strongest amongst us to get as many potatoes as possible". 

Since weaker players, like the newb with no mods you envisioned, will still fail to make the grade, I really don't see significant benefit in the implementation of the suggestion to them. To you and I, who will hit rank 30 partway through, there's benefit, but we're in the least need of the help. Wouldn't it be a lot better to find a different way for us to earn the extra standing? 

First off, this has turned from giving advise and feedback on the idea to, let's target anything anyone says positive about the idea, and dismiss everything anyone says.

 

You didn't comment on anything I said except for, "I'm bad at the game, so I guess no one else can be worse, or be busier than I am." What type of argument is that? There are people that would love to get more rewards, this is a video game, allowing users to get more rewards doesn't hurt or affect you in any way, the only thing it does it make the players happier when they receive more cool gear to try. That's it. Why is that a bad thing?

 

What does it matter if I can make it? The reason I'd re-roll is because I just don't like that game mode or what have you. Like, I hate defense missions. Just despise them.Why shouldn't I be allowed to re-roll instead of being forced into a game mode that I absolutely hate?

 

It seems silly that you need 10 responses to tell people how much you hate the idea. There comes a time you should...

19 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

say that and move on.

 

[1frogmaster]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You're literally repeating that one line, you notice?

Have you noticed?

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Now let me point out one more. One of the stated things about nightwave is that that DE wants to take us out of our comfort zones. They want us to try out things that we don't do, or wouldn't normally do. Your substitution idea runs counter to this. 

Finally a new point! Yeah, this is true, but consider how many challenges there are. Rolling 1 of the 10 or so per week isn't a bad thing. It just means users who can't or don't like the content that it's forcing because they've done it enough have an option. Options in games are a good thing, right? I mean, if my favorite video game gave me more options that made it more fun who would want to say otherwise?

I mean, seriously, you're that guy in the back of the room who dismisses everything because it doesn't fit your style of game play. Just quit it already. You've made your point, no one has agreed and yet you're still going. Take a step back, and let it go. If it gets implemented, get ready to high tail it away from the game, but if it doesn't, and the end of the day, all you've done is told everyone how their ideas are dumb because it makes the game too easy. Like, what type of a response is that?

Why do you think they added the catch-up system? People are busy, and this video game isn't their job. They shouldn't be required to log in everyday and play it. People have other things they need to be doing. Adding another way to make the game more fun would never be a bad thing, ever. 

Let's move on, shall we?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 minutes ago, 1frogmaster said:

First off, this has turned from giving advise and feedback on the idea to, let's target anything anyone says positive about the idea, and dismiss everything anyone says.

You mean it's turned from "let's all complement it" and now that someone is giving feedback that's not positive, that you want to try to tell that person to STFU? 🙄

Fortunately it's a forum for feedback, not patting each other on the back. So long as I'm not breaking any rules and staying on topic, it's going to be hard for you to shut me up. 

6 minutes ago, 1frogmaster said:

You didn't comment on anything I said except for, "I'm bad at the game, so I guess no one else can be worse, or be busier than I am." What type of argument is that?

One that's no worse than "I will advocate for hypothetical people who are contradictions in terms that I will create only and specifically to support my claims, because I am not able to show a better reason"? 

If someone is too busy to play a video game, how does changing one challenge for another help them? Or if they're just too weak to do the level of challenge, then how does swapping one for another help them? 

10 minutes ago, 1frogmaster said:

There are people that would love to get more rewards, this is a video game, allowing users to get more rewards doesn't hurt or affect you in any way, the only thing it does it make the players happier when they receive more cool gear to try. That's it. Why is that a bad thing?

Why do you keep thinking that someone else has to show why an idea that's not good, is bad? It's on you to show why it definitely should be done. Not that it's an idea that you like, but an idea that would definitely benefit the game. 

13 minutes ago, 1frogmaster said:

What does it matter if I can make it? The reason I'd re-roll is because I just don't like that game mode or what have you. Like, I hate defense missions. Just despise them.Why shouldn't I be allowed to re-roll instead of being forced into a game mode that I absolutely hate?

Because you can already skip them under the current system. So why put someone to the trouble of making a complex system, to avoid doing what you already don't need to do? That's what you need to answer. 

15 minutes ago, 1frogmaster said:

It seems silly that you need 10 responses to tell people how much you hate the idea. 

No I respond once to each post. So far all I'm seeing is people who don't have a valid reason for demanding what they are demanding. 

Understand I would probably benefit personally from what you suggest, but I don't see how the game will benefit, how the hypothetical newbs you're holding up would benefit. And because of opportunity costs, I see how it would potentially hurt us. 

11 minutes ago, 1frogmaster said:

Have you noticed?

Finally a new point! Yeah, this is true, but consider how many challenges there are. Rolling 1 of the 10 or so per week isn't a bad thing. It just means users who can't or don't like the content that it's forcing because they've done it enough have an option. Options in games are a good thing, right? I mean, if my favorite video game gave me more options that made it more fun who would want to say otherwise?

I mean, seriously, you're that guy in the back of the room who dismisses everything because it doesn't fit your style of game play. Just quit it already. You've made your point, no one has agreed and yet you're still going. Take a step back, and let it go. If it gets implemented, get ready to high tail it away from the game, but if it doesn't, and the end of the day, all you've done is told everyone how their ideas are dumb because it makes the game too easy. Like, what type of a response is that?

Why do you think they added the catch-up system? People are busy, and this video game isn't their job. They shouldn't be required to log in everyday and play it. People have other things they need to be doing. Adding another way to make the game more fun would never be a bad thing, ever. 

Let's move on, shall we?

Weird, seems like you need to make a dozen posts before you finally make a case for why your suggestion should be implemented. 

Because I'm sitting here looking at a post in reply to yet another reason for why implementing it might not be a great idea, and I'm not seeing a single actual reason to do it other than "giving people more choices" which is really "I just don't want to do the challenges that I don't want to do, but I want the potato anyway. 

Also, you know that the moment you resorted to an ad hominem, you showed that you really don't have better reasons than, "I don't like you, so you have to shut up now". 

 

I have shown you numbers for why I think this is not needed. Can you please show me numbers for why you think it is?

 

[1frogmaster]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I have shown you numbers for why I think this is not needed. Can you please show me numbers for why you think it is?

10 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

You'd need, 240k standing to get to Old Mate. That's 30 days of farming or 4 weeks. Now it's week 7. You can finally fight profit taker, assuming you capped your standing every single day, without missing one, and having all the level up required items. Let's just assume that to make it easy. You finally get a chance to fight it and, what's that? You can't deal any damage because the only mods you have are Streamline, Flow, Vitality, Redirection, Warm Coat, and Toxic Flight. Mind you, you don't know what a catalyst is, you can't max all your mods, and you're playing Mag. Like, this is an impossible scenario for a newer player.

 

15 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Because I'm sitting here looking at a post in reply to yet another reason for why implementing it might not be a great idea, and I'm not seeing a single actual reason to do it other than "giving people more choices" which is really "I just don't want to do the challenges that I don't want to do, but I want the potato anyway. 

11 hours ago, Thrymm said:

And heck, why not?  We haven't seen a compelling reason why not yet.  Not needing it isn't a compelling reason at all---this is a game, we don't need any of it.  None of the game is "needed".  We don't need it to be the way it is, either, and yet...it is.

 

22 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

If someone is too busy to play a video game, how does changing one challenge for another help them? Or if they're just too weak to do the level of challenge, then how does swapping one for another help them?   

On 2019-07-24 at 4:38 PM, Steel_Rook said:

It's RNG - you're taking a chance on potentially getting a better challenge. Maybe give the player the option to hang onto their original challenge if they don't like the new roll while still consuming the reroll. Plenty of games have that option. Vermintide 2 allows you to reroll one daily challenge per day, The Division allows you to give up on dailies if you take too long and skip straight to the next daily, etc.

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Why do you keep thinking that someone else has to show why an idea that's not good, is bad? It's on you to show why it definitely should be done. Not that it's an idea that you like, but an idea that would definitely benefit the game.   

On 2019-07-25 at 1:30 AM, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

I wouldn't mind more freedom of choice..

11 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Why not have more choice?  Why have more choice....more player satisfaction.

Why not please more people?

Why please more people?  Umm....I'm not explaining that one.

Why not ask developers to develop game content that you want, in the feedback forum that they provide?  Providing feedback is very much what this forum is for, and damn near every aspect of this game that you've played has been skewed by player feedback in some way.

20 hours ago, 1frogmaster said:

I find that if you can reroll one you can't do, like kill profit taker, it then will give you the chance to get to the previous weeks. If you can't do what's there, you can't go back, so ones like Profit Taker become an impossible stopper for new players.

17 hours ago, Flashbinder said:

It'd make things a lot more QoL for most people.

 

33 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Because you can already skip them under the current system. So why put someone to the trouble of making a complex system, to avoid doing what you already don't need to do? That's what you need to answer. 

11 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Why not have tools to make tasks desirable?  At that point, a person might wonder "why don't we have them already?"

The fact that you can make it without doing them all isn't relevant.  Nightwave challenges have been heavily modified and some have been added, others taken away, due to player popularity and feedback.

The fact that all tasks may continue to not be desirable to all people is relevant. A simple tool(seriously, where did this notion that something like this would be complicated come from?) that would have the potential to increase player choice and popularity of assigned challenges seems like a pretty good idea.

 

35 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No I respond once to each post. So far all I'm seeing is people who don't have a valid reason for demanding what they are demanding.   

23 hours ago, Arcanys12 said:

" not a reason to demand that others do something for you"

I'm not demanding anything. I'm proposing an idea.  If you can't deal with that, why are you on this forum at all? Whether or not DE decides to implement anything like it, is ultimately their choice which is a fact. But that doesn't mean players can't give suggestions to existing systems or spitball ideas with other players. That's what this forum is for.

No one is demanding anything. Just suggesting a change that would improve QoL.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You mean it's turned from "let's all complement it" and now that someone is giving feedback that's not positive, that you want to try to tell that person to STFU?   

No, we're simply trying to say, we understand you don't agree. We all get it. In fact you've brought up a lot of points too. We haven't even dismissed a lot of what you've said. However, no matter what someone says, you're dismissing it.

 

Looks like there isn't more of an argument for it, nor do you have more arguments against it. That's it, let's leave it at that.

[Happy_Buddha]

This is a very cool idea, I really enjoy the thoughts behind it. I think it is a great way to get people do more Nightwave and make it feel like less of a chore. Awesome idea. I also don't really see any negatives too it other than maybe it would require a little development time. It would be a great quality of life improvement.

Oh, cool first post on the official forums.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Happy_Buddha