Theory

[ethaetha]

43 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As I've understood this, there are, at most, 4 sentients that could be in, or near, the Origin System. The first is Hunhow, who was the 'great destroyer', literally the Sentient in the Old War, and it's his fragments that gave rise to things like the Eidolons.

The second is Lotus, confirmed to be a Sentient, but she describes herself as a 'mimic', which we've seen and aren't anything like her, so what makes her different?

The third would be this mysterious 'mother' of hers, and this is where I believe the explanation for Lotus' difference is; When two Sentients interact to create a new Sentient, they each give something, contribute to the new life, and the 'father' and 'mother' are only defined by either each Sentient's personal identity, or by what aspect of the new life they contribute.

The fourth is Lotus' 'brother', who is confirmed to be the figure seen stalking over the Plains of Eidolon in the New War trailer.

There are, however, potentially thousands of Sentients in existence, all sent to the Tau system to prepare it for the Orokin who, thanks to Hunhow, Natah and the Tenno, don't exist anymore.

If there were more Sentients here? I think we'd be in far more trouble than we are right now.

i do count Lotus as a sentient however, i do not count her as the massive sentients, aka the "sentient mothers"

[ethaetha]

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

Cephalon are fairly common in the Origin System. The Corpus use them to pilot their large capital ships and possibly smaller ships as well. They can also be used for a number of other tasks. There are likely hundreds, if not thousands of them.

You can say this all you want, but Hunhow has never been referred to as Natah's mother and is several times referred to as Natah's father.

At the end of the Sacrifice quest, Natah says, "Mother, I am coming home." DE has talked about this mother other times when discussing the New War and it's clear she is coming to the Origin System.

Given that we know they're coming (as the New War trailer indicates), they've clearly found a way. A possible option is to have travelled at sub-light speeds through realspace. This will have taken them a while, but it's been millennia, really.

They're sentient, sapient beings with their own individuality and personalities. Hence, they can choose their own genders.

hence i had said, the sentients have no "exact" gender, it's by choice of them to be a specific gender, as i said ambiguous.

[ethaetha]

49 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As I've understood this, there are, at most, 4 sentients that could be in, or near, the Origin System. The first is Hunhow, who was the 'great destroyer', literally the Sentient in the Old War, and it's his fragments that gave rise to things like the Eidolons.

The second is Lotus, confirmed to be a Sentient, but she describes herself as a 'mimic', which we've seen and aren't anything like her, so what makes her different?

The third would be this mysterious 'mother' of hers, and this is where I believe the explanation for Lotus' difference is; When two Sentients interact to create a new Sentient, they each give something, contribute to the new life, and the 'father' and 'mother' are only defined by either each Sentient's personal identity, or by what aspect of the new life they contribute.

The fourth is Lotus' 'brother', who is confirmed to be the figure seen stalking over the Plains of Eidolon in the New War trailer.

There are, however, potentially thousands of Sentients in existence, all sent to the Tau system to prepare it for the Orokin who, thanks to Hunhow, Natah and the Tenno, don't exist anymore.

If there were more Sentients here? I think we'd be in far more trouble than we are right now.

if you have any info on the one destroyed via earth, outside of the already known lore, like maybe pictures of how it might've looked, let me know, since you seem to know alot of this aswell, also, the "fragments" are not the eidolon's, that's a different sentient, entirely different.

 

Hunhow's body is all on uranus or neptune, he sends out fragments, yes, but those are the battalysts and oculysts; Not the eidolons and volmvalysts, it's also confirmed there is atleast 2-3 active massive sentient "mothers" < they are nicknamed "mothers" because they create the other sentients, istg if someone keeps arguing this lol, the only inactive sentient is the one on earth, which i have no idea who or what it originally was, as it was wiped out by gara before any hints to it's origin and title could be known, all we know about it is that it has a size similar to hunhow and the outpost sentient seen in the new war's TEASER trailer, not the main trailer, also adding in i do agree with the sentient on the NEW WAR TRAILER being her brother, however due to the lack of real defined gender, there is something different altogether, possible, margulis is alive, and has the powers of the void as we do?

[GrayArchon]

50 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The first is Hunhow, who was the 'great destroyer', literally the Sentient in the Old War, and it's his fragments that gave rise to things like the Eidolons.

Hunhow is not the Eidolon Sentient. That was a separate Sentient sent to Earth. You can read about it here.

52 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The second is Lotus, confirmed to be a Sentient, but she describes herself as a 'mimic', which we've seen and aren't anything like her, so what makes her different?

The Mimics we encounter in the Sacrifice quest are fragments of Natah, who is the mimic progenitor. She was designed to be a spy, so the mimic ability seems specific to her, as far as we've seen.

[ethaetha]

Just now, GrayArchon said:

Hunhow is not the Eidolon Sentient. That was a separate Sentient sent to Earth. You can read about it here.

The Mimics we encounter in the Sacrifice quest are fragments of Natah, who is the mimic progenitor. She was designed to be a spy, so the mimic ability seems specific to her, as far as we've seen.

well, yes they are fragments, however, these fragments are from Hunhow, not Natah, it's truly quite obvious if you look at their coloring, and the fact they were shown to serve hunhow.

[ethaetha]

^ as Hunhow did help in creation of natah, some are most likely loyal to her, but are not hers to begin with.

[GrayArchon]

9 minutes ago, ethaetha said:

hence i had said, the sentients have no "exact" gender, it's by choice of them to be a specific gender, as i said ambiguous.

Everyone chooses their gender. It's no more exact or inexact than anyone else, and certainly doesn't seem to be ambiguous.

3 minutes ago, ethaetha said:

it's also confirmed there is atleast 2-3 active massive sentient "mothers"

What do you mean "confirmed"? Confirmed where?

4 minutes ago, ethaetha said:

they are nicknamed "mothers" because they create the other sentients, istg if someone keeps arguing this lol

You mean you nicknamed them mothers. There's no official source on this, and I'll repeat that Hunhow is referred to as Natah's father.

6 minutes ago, ethaetha said:

however due to the lack of real defined gender, there is something different altogether, possible, margulis is alive, and has the powers of the void as we do?

More rampant speculation. Margulis is dead. Ballas confirms she's dead. There is no indication that she is alive. And where the hell would she get Void powers? And why?

5 minutes ago, ethaetha said:

well, yes they are fragments, however, these fragments are from Hunhow, not Natah, it's truly quite obvious if you look at their coloring, and the fact they were shown to serve hunhow.

They resemble Conculysts and Battalysts in form and colouring, it's true. But more evidence points to them being Natah's fragments rather than Hunhow's:

• Hunhow is, as far as we know, dead. His consciousness appeared to be destroyed in Octavia's Anthem. Now, from a narrative point of view, I think he's still probably alive and kicking, but in-game, we've seen no indication that he is. Ballas wasn't working with Hunhow in the Sacrifice quest, he was working with Natah (although his original agreement, thousands of years ago, was with Hunhow). Thus, if Ballas and Natah were working together, it makes sense that the Sentients helping Ballas are from Natah.
• Natah is a mimic. She says she was created as a mimic. We have not seen other Sentients possess this mimicry ability. Thus, it makes sense that all Mimics are fragments of Natah.

[ethaetha]

answer on your sentient statement, this seems to kinda go against itself. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Unnamed_Sentient_Mother

 

[ethaetha]

2 hours ago, ethaetha said:

answer on your sentient statement, this seems to kinda go against itself. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Unnamed_Sentient_Mother

 

this "sentient mother" is just the outpost creating sentient, which has been stated it's out here,

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, ethaetha said:

if you have any info on the one destroyed via earth, outside of the already known lore, like maybe pictures of how it might've looked, let me know, since you seem to know alot of this aswell, also, the "fragments" are not the eidolon's, that's a different sentient, entirely different.

Hunhow was the Sentient, the only sentient ever described in Lore, that attacked the Sol System besides Natah. The assumption is that any and all Sentient offshoots, such as the Eidolons, are his Fragments.

The attack that was stopped at Cetus, the Unum's Lore describes it quite clearly, but here's an interesting point with a link to the Lore:

3 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Hunhow is not the Eidolon Sentient. That was a separate Sentient sent to Earth. You can read about it here.

Oh yes, I've read them, and I still stand by the point that the only Sentients described in the Lore of the Old War are Hunhow and Natah. The lore does not say that what attacked the Unum (and all of Earth and the Sol System) is not Hunhow. In fact the only supported Lore in the game about the Old War's actual antagonists is the Lore around Natah herself which states that only Natah and her Father, made the journey back to the Sol System.

Theoretically, this could be false, more could have come back, but at the moment the only stated Sentients that returned to Sol are Hunhow and Natah. Every other one is supposed to be safe in the Tau system. This was because the journey through the Void would render them sterile. Apparently they alone made that sacrifice to stop the Orokin.

Considering that Natah was a Mimic, not a terraforming mega-structure like her father, it's safe to say that Hunhow is what created the 'monstrous sentient' that became the Eidolons. Well, it's the only safe assumption at the moment, new information could change that. But to be clear; how would the people that became the Ostron know what their 'monster' called itself? That's why it's just 'a sentient' in the lore fragments about the Unum.

Remember, all of the Lore refers to even the small fragments as 'Sentients' even though it does state that a Sentient is the thing that created them they are all sentients, although have derivations like a 'sentient scout' a 'sentient eidolon' or 'sentient mimic'. So the reading of the Gara Lore is entirely included within the concept that Hunhow was the only Sentient force that attacked the Sol System.

This is why this comment here is a little off:

3 hours ago, ethaetha said:

i do count Lotus as a sentient however, i do not count her as the massive sentients, aka the "sentient mothers"

Because the fragments are referred to as 'sentients' too, but the way it's described indicates that only the beings with actual 'sentience' are real 'Sentients', thus Hunhow is one, and Natah is one, regardless of the fact that Natah was created as a Mimic. I would guess that the only reason that she is not able to also be a mega-structure ship is likely because she can't create new parts of herself which could be due to the trip back to Sol through the Void, or it could just be due to spending all her time locked up as Lotus.

Theoretically, if she had stayed in Tao, she would have literally built herself into one of the massive mega-structure ships, like Hunhow and her 'mother'. Or into a more specialised terraforming form. Heck, that's even likely the reason that 'mimics' exist as a function of the Sentients; the ability to adapt and change into something else would come in very handy when specific technology is needed to get things done to a planet.

So at the moment, we have only four Sentients confirmed in the system, and it's a Family. 'Mother' out somewhere near enough for Natah to reach and seek refuge with (thanks to the end of The Sacrifice and her actually referring to 'mother', then being within a Sentient mega-structure at the Tennocon reveal), Father buried on Uranus, heavily damaged and likely defeated, sterile and only able to send out a few fragments, Daughter (Natah), and this Tennocon reveal of the Brother.

3 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

You mean you nicknamed them mothers. There's no official source on this, and I'll repeat that Hunhow is referred to as Natah's father.

And just to be clear, there is an official source on there being a 'mother', just not in the way that the other people are stating, not some 'mothership' that creates actual Sentients, more in the literal sense of a mother. Natah left us at the end of The Sacrifice to find her 'mother', not her 'father', she knows where her father is, she's going to find her mother. The Roppy-lollery fight even has her describe her parents... if in a confusing fashion. Two actual Sentients that created her.

This is, and I'll bring this concept in, a very likely reason why DESteve was up on stage at Tennocon saying that The New War was going to be about Family, with reference to 'the one you're born into' and 'the one you choose'. If the Sentients we have here (not the many others likely out in Tau) are a literal family, this could be the actual crux of The New War's resolution.

This whole thing is not to say that there are no other Sentients, nor that there couldn't be any more waiting, just that what we have canonically had listed off are a Father, Mother, Daughter and Brother group.

I mean, here's a thought; maybe the Sentient mega-structure we see in The New War trailer isn't actually 'mother' at all? Maybe Natah went seeking her, but actually found her Brother instead, and that's why her Brother is attacking the Sol System this time. This would mean that we only have three Sentients actually in our system, not four.

[ethaetha]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hunhow was the Sentient, the only sentient ever described in Lore, that attacked the Sol System besides Natah. The assumption is that any and all Sentient offshoots, such as the Eidolons, are his Fragments.

The attack that was stopped at Cetus, the Unum's Lore describes it quite clearly, but here's an interesting point with a link to the Lore:

Oh yes, I've read them, and I still stand by the point that the only Sentients described in the Lore of the Old War are Hunhow and Natah. The lore does not say that what attacked the Unum (and all of Earth and the Sol System) is not Hunhow. In fact the only supported Lore in the game about the Old War's actual antagonists is the Lore around Natah herself which states that only Natah and her Father, made the journey back to the Sol System.

Theoretically, this could be false, more could have come back, but at the moment the only stated Sentients that returned to Sol are Hunhow and Natah. Every other one is supposed to be safe in the Tau system. This was because the journey through the Void would render them sterile. Apparently they alone made that sacrifice to stop the Orokin.

Considering that Natah was a Mimic, not a terraforming mega-structure like her father, it's safe to say that Hunhow is what created the 'monstrous sentient' that became the Eidolons. Well, it's the only safe assumption at the moment, new information could change that. But to be clear; how would the people that became the Ostron know what their 'monster' called itself? That's why it's just 'a sentient' in the lore fragments about the Unum.

Remember, all of the Lore refers to even the small fragments as 'Sentients' even though it does state that a Sentient is the thing that created them they are all sentients, although have derivations like a 'sentient scout' a 'sentient eidolon' or 'sentient mimic'. So the reading of the Gara Lore is entirely included within the concept that Hunhow was the only Sentient force that attacked the Sol System.

This is why this comment here is a little off:

Because the fragments are referred to as 'sentients' too, but the way it's described indicates that only the beings with actual 'sentience' are real 'Sentients', thus Hunhow is one, and Natah is one, regardless of the fact that Natah was created as a Mimic. I would guess that the only reason that she is not able to also be a mega-structure ship is likely because she can't create new parts of herself which could be due to the trip back to Sol through the Void, or it could just be due to spending all her time locked up as Lotus.

Theoretically, if she had stayed in Tao, she would have literally built herself into one of the massive mega-structure ships, like Hunhow and her 'mother'. Or into a more specialised terraforming form. Heck, that's even likely the reason that 'mimics' exist as a function of the Sentients; the ability to adapt and change into something else would come in very handy when specific technology is needed to get things done to a planet.

So at the moment, we have only four Sentients confirmed in the system, and it's a Family. 'Mother' out somewhere near enough for Natah to reach and seek refuge with (thanks to the end of The Sacrifice and her actually referring to 'mother', then being within a Sentient mega-structure at the Tennocon reveal), Father buried on Uranus, heavily damaged and likely defeated, sterile and only able to send out a few fragments, Daughter (Natah), and this Tennocon reveal of the Brother.

And just to be clear, there is an official source on there being a 'mother', just not in the way that the other people are stating, not some 'mothership' that creates actual Sentients, more in the literal sense of a mother. Natah left us at the end of The Sacrifice to find her 'mother', not her 'father', she knows where her father is, she's going to find her mother. The Roppy-lollery fight even has her describe her parents... if in a confusing fashion. Two actual Sentients that created her.

This is, and I'll bring this concept in, a very likely reason why DESteve was up on stage at Tennocon saying that The New War was going to be about Family, with reference to 'the one you're born into' and 'the one you choose'. If the Sentients we have here (not the many others likely out in Tau) are a literal family, this could be the actual crux of The New War's resolution.

This whole thing is not to say that there are no other Sentients, nor that there couldn't be any more waiting, just that what we have canonically had listed off are a Father, Mother, Daughter and Brother group.

I mean, here's a thought; maybe the Sentient mega-structure we see in The New War trailer isn't actually 'mother' at all? Maybe Natah went seeking her, but actually found her Brother instead, and that's why her Brother is attacking the Sol System this time. This would mean that we only have three Sentients actually in our system, not four.

it does infact say about the sentient being a sentient, aka the one from the Unum sooo

also, the one via the teaser was infact the "outpost sentient" aka a sentient that creates the smaller outposts, and where the armies are coming from.

And during the quest for Revenant it states it went there without any others, including Hunhow, meaning it was a seperate one.

Edited October 23, 2019 by ethaetha

[GrayArchon]

37 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

In fact the only supported Lore in the game about the Old War's actual antagonists is the Lore around Natah herself which states that only Natah and her Father, made the journey back to the Sol System.

At no point does anyone say this.

During the Natah quest, Lotus says: "All missions to the Origin System required a sacrifice. Me and my kind become barren when crossing the gap." This implies that there were far more than just the two of them who travelled to the Origin System. At the very least, there had to be those who crossed over first and discovered that they could survive the journey, albeit sterile.

Hunhow also says during the Natah quest: "You betrayed us. As I awake, so will they. They will say you're riven and want to reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them." The Sentients in the Tau System aren't sleeping, as far as we know (why would they be?), so Hunhow must be talking about other, defeated Sentients in the Origin System, waiting for Natah to complete her sequence and destroy the Tenno so they may awake. The fact that he says he cannot stop them indicates they are separate individuals not under Hunhow's control – his peers and equals, or even his superiors.

Additionally, during the Ropalolyst boss fight, Natah says that she was born during the midst of the Old War: "So the Golden wrath came. And after, I was born. A mimic, a spy. Conceived to burrow into nests and swallow the pitch-eggs of their war machine. The Tenno." I find it hard to believe that up until this point, the entire Old War was fought against only one Sentient.

The last bit of evidence is that Hunhow's body is on Uranus, and the Eidolon is on Earth. They clearly can't be the same individual, and the Ur-Eidolon doesn't seem to be a fragment, but a sapient individual. It is described as intelligent and making its own decisions. In addition, the Ur-Eidolon is described as a progenitor in its own right: "The Sentient prowled and pressed and failed, never risking too much – for the Sentient could not reproduce. What it lost, it lost forever." 

46 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The lore does not say that what attacked the Unum (and all of Earth and the Sol System) is not Hunhow.

The Ur-Eidolon is only described as attacking Earth, not anywhere else in the Origin System: "…a colossal Sentient descended upon ancient Er, falling from distant stars to deliver upon the Orokin a terrible and final ruin."

It makes no sense for the Ur-Eidolon to have been a fragment of Hunhow. Hunhow had a specific plan, laid out in the Natah quest:

1. Use Natah to infiltrate the Orokin and gain control of the Tenno (achieved, with Ballas' help, as noted in the Sacrifice).
2. Sacrifice himself on Uranus so the Orokin think they won the war (achieved, noted in the Natah quest).
3. While the Orokin are celebrating the end of the war, Natah directs the Tenno to slaughter the Orokin Executors and dismantle the Orokin hierarchy (achieved, recorded in the Stalker's Codex entry).
4. After the Tenno have done their job, Natah destroys them (subverted, due to Ballas' interference, as noted in the Ropalolyst boss fight).
5. Natah sends a signal to wake up Hunhow now that the war is truly over (never happened, due to the failure of Step 4).

However, the Ur-Eidolon attacks Earth "n the dying days of the Orokin, with forums and promenades still blood-wet from Tenno betrayal". This makes no sense in the context of Hunhow's plan. Hunhow doesn't really seem to have had a Plan B, as he was completely blindsided by his daughter's betrayal and failure to complete the plan (see his dialogue during the Natah quest). So the Ur-Eidolon doesn't seem to have been his backup plan. It also doesn't seem to serve a real purpose (to Hunhow). The Ur-Eidolon was smashing Orokin Towers, not hunting down the Tenno. All signs point to the Ur-Eidolon having been a separate Sentient individual acting independently of Hunhow (and possibly in opposition to him, seeing as Hunhow appears to have been a prominent leader among the Sentient invasion force).

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And just to be clear, there is an official source on there being a 'mother', just not in the way that the other people are stating, not some 'mothership' that creates actual Sentients, more in the literal sense of a mother. Natah left us at the end of The Sacrifice to find her 'mother', not her 'father', she knows where her father is, she's going to find her mother. The Roppy-lollery fight even has her describe her parents... if in a confusing fashion. Two actual Sentients that created her.

My theory on Natah's parentage (copied from older posts of mine – post 1, post 2):

If you watch the TennoCon 2017 Art Panel (my writeup here), they discuss the first Sentient sent to the Tau System and how it was massive, so much so that the Sentients used it as the framework for all their later works (cf Natah: "My mother [was] a carpenter"). The concept art for the Sentient Outposts look very similar to the images we've seen of Natah's mother. I believe this "First Sentient" is Natah's mother.

The Sentient that Natah calls "Mother" is the First Sentient. This Sentient is the ancestor – or, mother – to all Sentients in or from the Tau System. Every Sentient calls her Mother. Mother gave birth to Hunhow through asexual means (the practice of fragmentation leads me to believe that all their reproduction, of sapient individuals or no, is asexual), and then Hunhow gave birth to Natah, through asexual means. Thus, Hunhow is Natah's direct father, and the First Sentient is Natah's mother because she is everyone's mother (including Hunhow).

57 minutes ago, ethaetha said:

And during the quest for Revenant it states it went there without any others, including Hunhow, meaning it was a seperate one.

I agree that the Ur-Eidolon was probably acting independently when it went to Earth, but this is not stated anywhere in the Revenant quest (dialogue here).

[BaIthazar]

8 hours ago, ethaetha said:

^ 1. uh, no she never quoted that her mother was coming.

2. it'd be impossible to return eitherway

3. as i said, they have no actual gender. they're machines, give a gender to a warframe, it's still just a machine without the operator (unless counting umbra)

2. It is not, as it has already been done before.

3. Sentients assign their own genders, and Warframes having a gender is an entirely different subject to which all I will say right now is that they very much do.

Edited October 24, 2019 by BaIthazar

[ethaetha]

On 2019-10-23 at 6:33 PM, BaIthazar said:

2. It is not, as it has already been done before.

3. Sentients assign their own genders, and Warframes having a gender is an entirely different subject to which all I will say right now is that they very much do.

sooo... basically your now saying /exactly/ what i said? '.'

[GruntBlender]

So, to sum up, the known sentient minds are Hunhow, Natah, Unnamed Mother, Natah's brother, and the unnamed sentient killed by Gara.

Mother is coming, guiding Natah.

Brother wants to wreck S#&amp;&#036;?

Natah wants her fire back.

Hunhow is sad, trapped in a buried and broken body.

Unnamed sentient on the plains is dead, mind obliterated.

There may be more, waiting in hiding, asleep, as alluded to by Hunhow.

 

[ethaetha]

On 2019-10-29 at 5:52 PM, GruntBlender said:

So, to sum up, the known sentient minds are Hunhow, Natah, Unnamed Mother, Natah's brother, and the unnamed sentient killed by Gara.

Mother is coming, guiding Natah.

Brother wants to wreck S#&amp;&#036;?

Natah wants her fire back.

Hunhow is sad, trapped in a buried and broken body.

Unnamed sentient on the plains is dead, mind obliterated.

There may be more, waiting in hiding, asleep, as alluded to by Hunhow.

 

most is correct however, i have a feeling earths is still active, b e c a u s e of the grineer pumping energy into it

 

(and again if someone can get me a picture of the one from the plains, or an idea of how it looked, please do)

[GruntBlender]

The earth one is dead, but his bits are active and roaming aimlessly. The term eidolon implies that he's dead, or at least shattered into no longer being a person, but fragments operating on instinct.