Archwings deployable like Archguns (Ground-based Exosuit function)

[Xarteros]

First off: I'm fairly sure this would be best done with a model rework, but with how few Archwings we have so far I couldn't imagine a better time

Problem:
Archwing is under-developed content-wise, people typically don't want/enjoy using it, and it's used mostly as a travel system rather than a combat platform.

 
Solution:
Make Archwings deployable in normal missions, much like Gravimag allows players to use Archguns in normal missions. (Edited for clarification)

Some features to include:

• Slow-acceleration run speed with momentum (Knockdown/stagger resist/immunity, chance to stagger/knockdown enemies you run past)
• Jet-boost replacing dodge roll, functioning like a lesser Rhino Charge
• Jump-jets, allowing you to boost upwards the longer you hold Jump
• The ability to summon and wield Arch-melee for big-scale impacts, but slower attack rates
• Provides personal air for broken ship windows or 0% survivals (maybe even slows down decay rate on Survival maps)
• Adds ammo regeneration (possibly slowly?) to Archguns, or at least expands their ammo pool or boosts reload speed etc.

Some features to change:

• Graphically: Change the archwings models to be a bit more streamline, and add pieces that attach to Warframe arms and legs to represent the exoskeletal nature (since it obviously gives us super strength to wield archmelee already, something to denote that visually). Limb attachments could simply be connected by faint energy tethers or pipes/cables of some form. Part of the streamlining is to make it viable for use on normal missions without looking massively clunky (current Archwing wings would be very obtrusive)
• Make it so the Archwing can be exited/entered after initial summoning. Also allow other players to 'borrow' our archwing (letting vets donate them to help newbie players in missions), but allow the owner to force players out via context menu or by using the Archwing Deployer gear again. Doing either of these things should lock your archwing out for X seconds from any player but the owner, to prevent shenanigans.
• Allow the Archwing to transition between ground-based exoskeleton to the atmospheric flight model seamlessly. Since players can exit/enter their Archwing manually (by a separate key, reactivating gear while piloting, or perhaps pressing/holding an existing button). Perhaps something as simple as double-jumping activates flight mode, and performing your ground melee slam enables ground mode. Just examples, I'm not familiar enough with controller gameplay to know if there's an ideal way to transition beyond additional keybindings. For the sake of not going nuts, flight mode should require X amount of open space around you to prevent pinballing around narrow corridors.
• Possibly combine Archwing mods with Warframe mods for less clutter. Only do this with mods that overlap (shields, health, sprint speed etc), and keep suitable mods separate (like how snipers have sniper mods but mostly use rifle mods)
• Change the universal blink to have re-castability that uses energy, so you can spam for energy cost or use it freely at intervals.

Bonus Points:

• We could totally make special functions for Archwings like smashing/blasting doors open. Serro (iirc) is described as being a tool for cutting through ship hulls, and that's just a regular melee weapon... so it's definitely in the realms. Same goes for Corpus air vents that are sealed up.
• For that matter, we should have that feeling of 'heavy weapon' power with Archguns, but that deserves its own post.

 
Discussion:

The reason I'm making these suggestions is to further the re-integration of a long-stagnant element of the game. DE 'pushed' the integration of Archwing into regular missions ages ago, and the closest we got was Sharkwing and open-world flight. I feel like the Gravimag application of Archguns was a step in the right direction, and this would be the next logical step. Combining the mod pool means less clutter to grind out and rank up, without taking away mods that could benefit Archwings uniquely. These sorts of additions (I won't pretend that all my ideas are perfect or that I thought of an answer to every part of the problem) would make Archwing more reachable in the realms of normal content, would get more players trying different Archwings and mod loadouts, and would ultimately generate better feedback on how to best balance/buff the existing content, as well as feedback on what gaps in the content could be readily filled by new Archwings and mods.

It would couple nicely with the upcoming Railjack content (but obviously, Railjack ought to be done first and this would be an expansion on top of that), it would give mecha-fans a bit more of a taste of what they're after (but without layering an entirely new mech system on top of an already crowded game). It could even pave the way for PvP railjack content, for tenno to board rival ships/dojos in their Archwings and cause some havoc.

What are your thoughts? What would you suggest instead? What would you add?

Edited November 28, 2019 by Xarteros

[Oreades]

28 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

• Adds ammo regeneration (possibly slowly?) to Archguns, or at least expands their ammo pool or boosts reload speed etc.

Actually noticed that the Archgun ammo packs seem to be dropping in regular missions, not sure if that's a bug or intended and they are pretty rare but it's kinda interesting for when I remember Arch guns are a thing. 

[Xarteros]

Just now, Oreades said:

Actually noticed that the Archgun ammo packs seem to be dropping in regular missions, not sure if that's a bug or intended and they are pretty rare but it's kinda interesting for when I remember Arch guns are a thing. 

Yeah, they drop from heavy units. If you're wielding the Archgun at the time, it acts as an ammo pack. If you've unsummoned your Archgun, it resets the cooldown on re-summoning it. With some of the guns, it's just a bit hit or miss, and I thought some kind of boost would suit it nicely.

In an ideal world (since I've been suggesting the bulk of this idea for a few years now), I'd say Archguns used without an exosuit should be really hard to control (Recoil at crazy levels, possibly self-stagger on shooting the heavier guns, much slower movement speed/maneuverability) and that you can only use them easily (like the current feel) when supported by an Exosuit. It just doesn't make sense, but since it's a 'nerf' I didn't bother to suggest it for fear of diverting the dialogue with overzealous anti-nerf criticism.

[GruntBlender]

1 hour ago, Xarteros said:

Turn Archwings into a deployable exo-suit. Much like Gravimag allows players to use Archguns in normal missions

That's basically a different piece of equipment, why even tie it to archwing? You're basically asking for a Javelin from Anthem, aren't you.

 

1 hour ago, Xarteros said:

Possibly combine Archwing mods with Warframe mods for less clutter.

Archwing does need more mods. There are currently 11, not counting the 3 augments and 1 primed variant. Using warframe mods doesn't seem right due to different balance and play styles.

Being able to summon archwing on open tiles like the large Ice Planet ones would be nice, I think they're big enough. Corridors are a different matter.

Edit:

There are 18 Arch-melee mods. 4 elements, 4 60/60s, 3 IPS, standard damage/CC/CD/range/speed/status, and scanning on kill because Simaris. There aren't any synergy or corrupted-like mods for added customization.

Edited November 28, 2019 by GruntBlender

[Xarteros]

4 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

That's basically a different piece of equipment, why even tie it to archwing? You're basically asking for a Javelin from Anthem, aren't you.

 

Archwing does need more mods. There are currently 11, not counting the 3 augments and 1 primed variant. Using warframe mods doesn't seem right due to different balance and play styles.

Being able to summon archwing on open tiles like the large Ice Planet ones would be nice, I think they're big enough. Corridors are a different matter.

Don't know what Anthem is, so no clue there mate. What I'm talking about isn't that far from being able to use Archguns in normal play. The difference is that it'll give you a slightly different feel (which the Archguns OUGHT to, but don't. They're giant space-cannons, why do they feel like ordinary firearms?). A dash ability as a charge, and the jump-jet style jump would be to offset the lack of 'nimble' mobility, and provide a different style of mobility. I feel like it could quite easily suit more open tiles like the Shipyard, Martian/Earth settlements, Ice planet/outpost etc, but still provide a use in regular missions as an enabler for Archmelee.

Part of the idea for merging Warframe and Archwing mods together would be to balance them similarly, but with Archwings having heavier defenses at the cost of reduced mobility. Having the option to use it in everyday missions means there can be more opportunities to create extra mods and flesh out the overall system. That said, I wouldn't be entirely against the idea of keeping Archwing mods separate, I'm just very fearful of the over-bloating of content with all the different available mods and how tedious and insurmountable it can appear to new players. It's hard to not take it for granted from the standpoint of a veteran, since they've added dribbles of mods here and there, but a new player has to get Warframe, Shotgun, Secondary, Rifle/Sniper, Melee, Archwing, Companion/Kubrow/Kavat/Sentinel, K-Drive, Archgun, Archmelee, Auras, Stances, Augments, Amalgam, Prime, Corrupted, Nightmare, Conclave and now Parazon mods. There's just a certain degree that we need fewer mods and more overlap to keep the system clear and the drop tables less overcrowded.

Ultimately, making them more in-line with Warframe stats will help DE to balance them overall, and require a bit less effort on their behalf. Less maintenance would make things more smooth

[GruntBlender]

54 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

Ultimately, making them more in-line with Warframe stats will help DE to balance them overall, and require a bit less effort on their behalf.

Oh, but I disagree. Having two separate things using the same mods would make balancing them harder, not easier. You know the recent True Steel buff, how much more difficult would that have been if primaries and melee used the same mods? With separate mods they can introduce mobility mods to archwings without affecting warframes, and whatever corrupted warframe mods they want without unbalancing archwings in the process.

[Xarteros]

1 minute ago, GruntBlender said:

Oh, but I disagree. Having two separate things using the same mods would make balancing them harder, not easier. You know the recent True Steel buff, how much more difficult would that have been if primaries and melee used the same mods? With separate mods they can introduce mobility mods to archwings without affecting warframes, and whatever corrupted warframe mods they want without unbalancing archwings in the process.

TBH I haven't really given too much thought into each mod and whether or not it could/would break Archwing gameplay, but you could easily exclude certain mods (like Companion vs Kavat-specific mods, or Sniper vs Rifle mods etc) wherever it's appropriate. Certain mods might work well as an overlap, like the Shield-Health and Companion Vitality mods both being an option. Some mods for Archwing-specific mobility could remain too, I guess. Originally I thought of merging rush, but I think Hyperion Thrusters could stay due to its unique application (although the stats suck imo)

Comparing primaries to melee for the aspect of rebalancing to merge the same mods is a very different story mate. They COULD do it, by measuring the maximum values per mod being merged, and adjusting the base stats of each weapon to reach the same values with the merged mod. Since there are so many weapons these days, that'd either need to be a complicated algorithm that might misinterpret certain weapons (like shotguns with multiple pellets, weapons with unique attack methods etc), or need to be done manually.

However, on the topic of Archwings, since we have so few it would definitely be more feasible to rebalance. Regardless, as I've said I would accept keeping them separate, but I think it's important for the longevity of the game to keep clutter down where possible, and prevent new 'cycles' of grinding needed by new players. New players is what helps fund this game to keep going and to make new content, and Warframe is widely infamous for its confusion/complexity to new players.

[GruntBlender]

5 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

you could easily exclude certain mods (like Companion vs Kavat-specific mods, or Sniper vs Rifle mods etc) wherever it's appropriate.

That would make it even more confusing for newer players. Instead of having two categories, warframes and archwing, you'd be adding an extra category of mods that can be used on both. It's needless complexity that only adds difficulty for everyone involved.

[Xarteros]

5 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

That would make it even more confusing for newer players. Instead of having two categories, warframes and archwing, you'd be adding an extra category of mods that can be used on both. It's needless complexity that only adds difficulty for everyone involved.

I don't think that's a really valid argument tbh. For one, a new player is just going to open the arsenal modding screen and see whatever mods are there.

Secondly, it's not adding a new category of mods that are used on both, per se, but it's making some mods that only work on Archwing. It's not in any way confusing that snipers use Point Strike or Serration, but regular rifles can't use Sniper-specific mods, so I don't see how this is any different. What the mod can be used on is also printed clearly on the mod, which clearly distinguishes Kavat-only mods from Companion mods, for example.

Beyond that, I'll say again that I'd still be content if they keep Archwing mods separate, it's not my main goal here. I just think it'd be an opportunity to make it work before the content expands further and makes more work for DE, and I know a lot of people in the community asking for it.

[ciTiger]

I like this general idea very much.

[Steel_Rook]

11 hours ago, Xarteros said:

In an ideal world (since I've been suggesting the bulk of this idea for a few years now), I'd say Archguns used without an exosuit should be really hard to control (Recoil at crazy levels, possibly self-stagger on shooting the heavier guns, much slower movement speed/maneuverability) and that you can only use them easily (like the current feel) when supported by an Exosuit. It just doesn't make sense, but since it's a 'nerf' I didn't bother to suggest it for fear of diverting the dialogue with overzealous anti-nerf criticism.

Archguns are already not as powerful as regular guns, on top of having a smaller mod selection. Moreover, they're already limited by ammo, and equip delay and the inability to carry items or melee. I don't feel hobbling them further "makes sense" from any perspective. Our Warframes are already massively super-human, I see no need for self-stagger or terrible weapons just to show how they can't even handle their own weapons.

 

10 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Archwing does need more mods. There are currently 11, not counting the 3 augments and 1 primed variant. Using warframe mods doesn't seem right due to different balance and play styles.

The balance between Archwings and Warframes isn't that far off, though. Hell, plenty of Archwings just have copies of existing Warframe powers anyway, not to mention they have the same mods by another name. I'm of the opinion that the game needs to treat Archwings and Warframes as basically two sides of the same coin, and give them the same modding potential. If you have any specific special-case concerns I'm open to hearing them, but I don't see an issue across the board.

 

12 hours ago, Xarteros said:

Turn Archwings into a deployable exo-suit. Much like Gravimag allows players to use Archguns in normal missions, allow Archwings to be deployed and used in normal missions too.

What you're proposing sounds reasonable, but not in the way you're proposing it. The only way I see this happening is if we're basically allowed to use our Archwings indoors, but we walk on the ground instead of flying. That would involve using the Archwing's own health, shield and energy stats as well as its own ability set. On the one hand, I would not be opposed to this, as I'd love to use some of those abilities on the ground. On the other hand, Archwing balance is utter S#&$e and that would really come to light if they're usable directly alongside regular Warframes. The Amesha is basically a superior version of Frost.

But sure, why not? Let me call down my Archwing for a bit to walk on the ground in. Replace my bullet jump with a jet thrust, give me a triple jump and a limited hover, give me full access to my Archwing abilities and maybe even my Archmelee and that might be a fun mechanic. Not sure how that would be limited, though. Cooldown with pick-ups again?

[Xarteros]

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Archguns are already not as powerful as regular guns, on top of having a smaller mod selection. Moreover, they're already limited by ammo, and equip delay and the inability to carry items or melee. I don't feel hobbling them further "makes sense" from any perspective. Our Warframes are already massively super-human, I see no need for self-stagger or terrible weapons just to show how they can't even handle their own weapons.

What you're proposing sounds reasonable, but not in the way you're proposing it. The only way I see this happening is if we're basically allowed to use our Archwings indoors, but we walk on the ground instead of flying. That would involve using the Archwing's own health, shield and energy stats as well as its own ability set. On the one hand, I would not be opposed to this, as I'd love to use some of those abilities on the ground. On the other hand, Archwing balance is utter S#&$e and that would really come to light if they're usable directly alongside regular Warframes. The Amesha is basically a superior version of Frost.

But sure, why not? Let me call down my Archwing for a bit to walk on the ground in. Replace my bullet jump with a jet thrust, give me a triple jump and a limited hover, give me full access to my Archwing abilities and maybe even my Archmelee and that might be a fun mechanic. Not sure how that would be limited, though. Cooldown with pick-ups again?

Well, when I say 'in an ideal world...' I mean, realistically Archguns should tear enemies to shreds to a degree well beyond regular firearms, but they should be difficult to control. Since this isn't the case, I didn't even bother suggesting the change to recoil in my original idea. This is just commentary from a thematic standpoint, and DE would need to make it worthwhile enough damage-wise to compensate for difficulty of use. The only reason that I brought it up is that now Archguns just feel like crappy versions of normal guns with more limitations and very little appeal bar a few fun ones (Fluctus with its crazy punch through, for example)

And perhaps I'm not describing the idea too well. When I say " Turn Archwings into a deployable exo-suit " I really do just mean to make them deployable like Archguns are now. I want it to just be a ground-based function that uses the flight thrusters for a dash/charge attack and for jump boosters. I'd want it to work on Open World maps too, allowing players to transition between flight and heavy ground combat seamlessly. My point for downsizing the wings and adding 'bits' to the limbs is to create a visual connection between the Archwing and the fact that it grants even more strength than we have as Warframes. It's also to prevent the massively bulky wings from blocking player cameras in normal missions.

It'd use Archwing stats and abilities (although I'd welcome a mod that lets you use Warframe powers instead), which was specifically part of my idea of it, because experienced players could 'lend' their big tanky Archwing to a new player to help them survive on missions together.

|Edit| I updated the description and title to better reflect that I'm not asking for anything radically different

Edited November 28, 2019 by Xarteros

[GruntBlender]

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

If you have any specific special-case concerns I'm open to hearing them, but I don't see an issue across the board.

I'm thinking mods like Aviator and Rolling Guard. Then, the mods that deal with energy since the energy economy is different between the two. Adaptation and Umbral mods would weak havok considering the base stats of the Archwings. I'm sure there are more.

Then, the future mobility mods for Archwing, since it's needed. Movement is quite different between the two. And the enemy interaction is too, warframes plough through a horde close up while archwing deals with locking onto one enemy at a time and shooting from a larger distance.

[Xarteros]

4 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

I'm thinking mods like Aviator and Rolling Guard. Then, the mods that deal with energy since the energy economy is different between the two. Adaptation and Umbral mods would weak havok considering the base stats of the Archwings. I'm sure there are more.

Then, the future mobility mods for Archwing, since it's needed. Movement is quite different between the two. And the enemy interaction is too, warframes plough through a horde close up while archwing deals with locking onto one enemy at a time and shooting from a larger distance.

That's fair, but I still think it'd be easy to keep certain mods separate to either Warframe or Archwing, with the central mods being applicable to both. I'd also say DE should shift the stats for Archwing to make them balanced to Warframes. Once that's done, Umbral mods would still be good, but they're also a massively expensive investment (either crippling your other build capabilities, forcing you to polarize every other available slot, or spending the very rare Umbral forma).

Just as an example, let's take a look at Odonata (first, and flagship)

• Has 900 health, and the health mod increases by 150% for a total of 2,250 HP. Divide this end-result health pool by the 440% of a max vitality mod and you get a base health of about 416ish. Keep in mind that balancing Archwing stats would also include balancing Archwing enemies and weapons to match. Bringing Archwings/Archguns closer in line to normal Warframe gameplay stats also means DE don't have to balance a ground vs air stat distribution of everything
• This means that Umbral Vitality would push that value up to around 3,650 HP, which is hardly overpowered considering the massive investment to get it, and the fact that many Warframes can reach that easily and with abilities that make them even more survivable (like Nidus getting 3,915 with Umbral Vitality, but coupled with Parasitic link for damage transfer as well as innate regeneration)
• Just adjust the others in a similar fashion, and you're more or less done.

Also, I don't agree with the statement that Warframes plow through hordes while Archwings deal with single enemies at larger distances. Due to the general nature of Archguns (too many with travel time, inaccuracy, no scopes, many with capped range limits) there's almost no point in dealing at long ranges. I almost exclusively use Archmelee and zoom through hordes up close, utilising the innate lock-on dash attack to get from one to the next. Couple that with radial AoE abilities like Itzal's Cosmic Crush, and it's much easier to engage up close than it is to try and shoot from a range.

 

[GruntBlender]

5 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

I almost exclusively use Archmelee and zoom through hordes up close

Can you chop many enemies in one swing? Is there an equivalent to slide attack or stances that let you spin a heavy blade in a circle? Space is inherently different to ground.

[Xarteros]

22 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

Can you chop many enemies in one swing? Is there an equivalent to slide attack or stances that let you spin a heavy blade in a circle? Space is inherently different to ground.

Yeah, I really don't see how that actually affects anything. Yes, you can't hit multiple targets in one given swing to my knowledge, but the entire scale of Archwing is larger. The reason they added the dash-attack style melee is to work around the slightly larger distances between enemies.

But how does that in any way affect the suggestions in this thread? I'm really confused as to how that's relevant. Can you elaborate?

Sidenote: In order to make more content for the future, I'd be all-for an Archmelee stance or two with lots of shockwaves and ground slams to expand on Archmelee in flight as well as on ground. That's part of the purpose of this entire suggestion; to make room for new and more desirable Archwing content whilst simultaneously tying the system in to the game at large, rather than being so specifically isolated.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Xarteros

[GruntBlender]

15 hours ago, Xarteros said:

That's part of the purpose of this entire suggestion; to make room for new and more desirable Archwing content whilst simultaneously tying the system in to the game at large, rather than being so specifically isolated.

Then my suggestion is opening up a few tiles a bit and letting us use archwings and k-drives in them. Corpus Ice Planet tileset in particular is practically begging to be adapted to vehicles, with its wide tunnels and large open outdoor areas.

[DrakeWurrum]

It would make sense if they were an actual exosuit, but as they are... they're just jet packs with big engine-wings. I don't see this working.

[Steel_Rook]

19 hours ago, Xarteros said:

Well, when I say 'in an ideal world...' I mean, realistically Archguns should tear enemies to shreds to a degree well beyond regular firearms, but they should be difficult to control. Since this isn't the case, I didn't even bother suggesting the change to recoil in my original idea. This is just commentary from a thematic standpoint, and DE would need to make it worthwhile enough damage-wise to compensate for difficulty of use. The only reason that I brought it up is that now Archguns just feel like crappy versions of normal guns with more limitations and very little appeal bar a few fun ones (Fluctus with its crazy punch through, for example)

The problem is that what you describe is a textbook case of "balance of extremes." I've seen this approach to game balance attempted in video games throughout the years and I've always found it lacking. Designing weapons to be REALLY powerful but also REALLY clumsy or with REALLY limited ammo or other kinds of severe limiting factors just makes them into tools we never actually use. I remember when Payday 2 first tried introducing a Minigun, giving it standard Rifle damage with 3000 RPM but hilariously terrible accuracy and recoil and straight-up no ammo pick-up. Yes, it was a fun weapon to goof around with for machinegunners like myself, but it was ultimately a pointless gesture because it was an objectively bad weapon. I'm personally fine with where Archgun performance is now, as my Imperator Vandal is still among my strongest weapons. Rather, I'd like to see the restrictions loosened up on them, such dumping the Archgun Deployer cooldown and just having the weapon slowly regenerate ammo over time. That would let us pull it out as often as we want, but would still run us dry if we shoot it too much.

I get that Archguns are thematically supposed to be "heavy weapons" but I've never found game design which severely restricts the use or performance of weapons to be actually fun in the moment-to-moment gameplay. A weapon that's really devastating is still not that compelling to use when I barely ever get to use it.

 

19 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

I'm thinking mods like Aviator and Rolling Guard. Then, the mods that deal with energy since the energy economy is different between the two. Adaptation and Umbral mods would weak havok considering the base stats of the Archwings. I'm sure there are more. Then, the future mobility mods for Archwing, since it's needed. Movement is quite different between the two. And the enemy interaction is too, warframes plough through a horde close up while archwing deals with locking onto one enemy at a time and shooting from a larger distance.

Partially agreed. Rolling Guard is fine, as far as I'm concerned, since Archwings have the same dodge-roll mechanic as Warframes - a barrel roll in their case. Blink might cause issues with this, but I'm... Honestly not a fan of Blink for Hover combat. Aviator would indeed be problematic since Archwings are always airborne, but that can be amended to only affect Archwings while they're actively boosting. As to "enemy interactions" - I disagree. Yes, you could reign death from a distance in your Archwing, but you can just as well rush into melee and cleave your way through enemy fighter escorts. I don't know if DE ever fixed Archmelee auto-tracking, but I had tons of fun slicing my way through the Corpus fighter wings with my Prisma Veritux on Salacia. And even if gameplay differs, that just means the same builds might not apply for Archwings as apply for Warframes.

My point was more... Why are there separate health, shield, armour, ability strength, ability duration, ability range, energy capacity and energy efficiency mods for Warframes and Archwings? Yes, the two have different stats, but there's no practical reason why they should have to. Archwings have higher base stats with lower percentage mods (incidentally, the version I prefer) but there's no reason it has to work that way. There's no reason Archwings can't have Warframe-scale health with Warframe-scale health mods. There's no reason Archwing enemies can't themselves have Warframe-scale health and deal Warframe-scale damage. Yes, that's how they're balanced NOW, but I personally believe that Archwings in general need a ground-up balance pass. So many of their mods make no sense. Some of them are absurdly weak, others are absurdly strong and some go up to Rank 10 for no reason that I can determine - basically serving as de-facto Primed mods.

I don't expect what I'm proposing to be a simple matter of just flagging all Warframe mods to be equippable on Archwings and clocking out for the day, obviously. However, I'm of the opinion that Archwing and Warframe balance is exceptionally close together, to the point where separate mods with separate balance aren't required. Think of it like the universal Sentinel attack Precept. Once upon a time, each Sentinel's attack mod was balanced around that Sentine's unique weapon and it really didn't add much to either the build-side or the gameplay side. Now we have a single "Attack with equipped weapon at 50 meters" mod across all of them, and nothing of value was lost in the transition.

Archwings can't keep existing in this "space between spaces" where their balance is entirely independent of anything else. That might have worked when we only had 9 Archwing nodes that nobody played in the entire game. Now that Railjack is on the verge of being a thing, we need a balance pass.

[GruntBlender]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

we need a balance pass

Now there's a statement I can wholeheartedly support. Not just for AW, but for all health and damage. An average gun loadout boosting damage 50-100 times is a bit ridiculous and makes enemies harder to scale to where they're relevant, let alone a challenge, outside endurance runs.

I don't feel particularly strongly on the archwing mods, just think it would be more work in the long run to combine them with frame mods. I'd like to see archmelee mechanics changed too, though won't go into details here.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Now there's a statement I can wholeheartedly support. Not just for AW, but for all health and damage. An average gun loadout boosting damage 50-100 times is a bit ridiculous and makes enemies harder to scale to where they're relevant, let alone a challenge, outside endurance runs. I don't feel particularly strongly on the archwing mods, just think it would be more work in the long run to combine them with frame mods. I'd like to see archmelee mechanics changed too, though won't go into details here.

Generally speaking, I don't like redundant mods. I'm already not entirely sold on having redundant versions of basic damage, multishot, elemental damage, etc. mods for Rifles, Shotguns and Pistols. If you REALLY need to have different values, you could still do that - rate of fire mods offer *2 effect for Bows, for instance. Just it annoys me that all of these mods are basically different names on the same thing, seemingly so you'll grind longer and for no other reason. I can see individual Warframe mods being problematic on Archwings and vice versa (the ability strength one is substantially more powerful on Archwings, for example), but I don't see the point in this kind of bloat.

Mods aside, though, I feel Warframe is overdue for some kind of large-scale balance pass. Archwing combat is... Kind of OK-ish, mostly because the dearth of mods and the low level of the missions keeps the power creep down somewhat, but that's not going to last long with Railjack. Not if Archwing combat becomes part of the core gameplay look, rather than a throwaway toy nobody bothers with. We're at a point where DE struggle to design meaningful encounters even WHEN they overload them with invulnerability sections, ability immunity and other gimmicks.

[Xarteros]

16 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

It would make sense if they were an actual exosuit, but as they are... they're just jet packs with big engine-wings. I don't see this working.

That's why I suggested they tone down the scale of the wings and add sections that connect to the limbs via cables/hoses/energy beams/etc

Largely to make sure the massive wings don't block the player's camera in ground missions, but also to more accurately tie them into the theme of an exosuit. They do, after all, give us the strength to wield massive weapons (which the Gravimag effectively supplements for Archguns), but the devs forgot about that aspect of it... Unless they literally think that everything is 'weightless' in space and as such requires no effort or something... I hope that's not the case.