Limbo Re:Revisited

[BloodyEy3]

Updated main artical with the the later ideas and cleaned those comments up (still viewable in spoiler 1,2,3).

tried to go over its structure again:

• Leaving the Limbo introduction (what he does, few builds and so on) viewable, so everyone can have a baseline on what limbo does (atleast what i think he does).
• Further in the thread i get to what changes could benefit limbo current playstyle, aswell as maybe adding abit off diversity aswell.
• After that i give my own idea and more or less specific examples of how those could be implemented, i hid those behind spoiler

Main point is to get additional idea that push in same direction, or have flaws or adjustments pointed out.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

 

On 2020-01-04 at 7:30 AM, xZeromusx said:

Still a little difficult to follow, but honestly, all of it feels unnecessary. There's one change that I would do to Limbo, and only to make him better in a party setting: Share his passive with allies.

The biggest headache when playing Limbo or playing with a Limbo isn't his survivability or nullifiers. He can simply dodge into the rift and be invulnerable forever and the player can drop into Operator mode to still screw with enemies not in the rift. No, the biggest headache with Limbo is how much other players hate playing with you when you're on Limbo. To resolve that problem, simply sharing his passive with the party whenever Limbo is present would make everyone's lives easier.

But it should only be shared if Limbo is in the party.

I 100% stand behind this. Quickly being able to choose whether you want to be rifted or not instead of just choosing when you want to be unrifted would make me much much more okay with a limbo in my squad. I love hus abilities and how they give you passive energy regeneration even during ability draining abilities, but having random invincible enemies all over the map that i have to wait for limbo to rift me before i can kill them, having enemies outside the catylsm causing me to have to run out of it, randomly being banished out of no where, all frustrates me.

 

His abilities all currently just put other players in timeout without consent lmao

 

But your one simple change. I honestly feel like i could then tolerate the most absurd limbos. Especially if the ability for that limbo to banish me (outside of his 4th ability) is removed

Edited March 7, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[BloodyEy3]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

I 100% stand behind this. Quickly being able to choose whether you want to be rifted or not instead of just choosing when you want to be unrifted would make me much much more okay with a limbo

Still have to disagree. More then anything this invalidats limbo even more. Basically everything you want from limbo you can perform urself then. So it takes limbos theme and uniqness and puts it in the trash can. if 1 passive is shared, all should be shared (for fairness) --> breaks game even more, can be annoyin af (zephyr passive), and takes a huge part of each warframes idintity away

I can see the point since riftdash is probably limbos strongest point (cost no energy, has no duration, more or less invunerable, aswell as energy regen). The thing is if everyone gets to use it, its plain op. even if its just a few sec its basically a "free" rolling guard for everyone.  So if at all it would need to cost energy to make sense, but then people had to play around energy and the dash anymore, which probably would be seen even more negative.

i tried to implement the "free to chose rift/ not rift" through the portal changes (and addition on banish).

vor 36 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

I love hus abilities and how they give you passive energy regeneration even during ability draining abilities

thats what i put on riftsurge (just less affective)

vor 37 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

but having random invincible enemies all over the map that i have to wait for limbo to rift me before i can kill them,

again riftsurge, banish portal

vor 37 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

having enemies outside the catylsm causing me to have to run out of it, randomly being banished out of no where, all frustrates me.

banish portal in cataclysm.

as you see i gave an answer for all of ur problems. The only thing is that its still resolving around the limbo and how he plays.

So in comparison to now (the way limbo is less intrusive is min range and not useing 3+1, not that they are really useable with min range anyway... ) he can automatically by just useing his abilies and play as he wants be less intrsuvie. banish hold always only banishes enemies, banish tap will only banish the faction he targets (and only a radial area around that target) so its basically impossible to "accidentally banish someone" --> if that keeps happening just hit him up with report since its clearly intentional.

the changes to riftsurge in general gives it overall more reason to be used in all situation. if the limbo plays in the rift he will gain abit more dmg and all his allies near him will be able to damage the targets that are in the rift. when the riftsurge spreads since targets are killed he can banish them while stayin in the rift (more safety for limbo and less energy use for banish), while his team gains a small amount of energy/sec and flat energy if they kill targets in the rift (so it kinda complements each other aswell).

Both changes make it also less harder to actually "troll" by banishing enemies and not killing them --> banish always leaving a portal (with marker)

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

But your one simple change. I honestly feel like i could then tolerate the most absurd limbos. Especially if the ability for that limbo to banish me (outside of his 4th ability) is removed

that is my idea while an actually "good" limbo would be alot better support (compared to now) for the team.

I think a huge part for "the most absurb limbos" is that they often dont even know how rift or abilities work themselfs (atleast newer players tend to). This would be addressed with the visual update (aswell as changing riftsurge). The next thing is it would help to clarify for everyone who is in rift and who isnt. what works cross plane, and what doesnt.

Atm the only way you get to know what works in rift and doesnt is by trial and error, or heading to the warframe.wiki riftplane section and reading throught it. Then atleast most interaction could be seen from the start. (you are in the rift and sth is grey ? gotta change plane. you are in rift and sth on ground has color (for example napalms fire things) means it was cast in rift and can dmg you, if its grey its from enemies outside rift and cant hurt you).

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

Basically everything you want from limbo you can perform urself then.

What i want from limbo is for him not to slow my kills down. So limbo can do that buy

- banishing enemies

- protecting objectives

- Freezing problematic enemies

- giving the squad an additional passive

Pretty good support!

I cant do that myself

What i dont want is

- banishing and unbanishing enemies causing me not to be able to kill them.

As far as making him more fun for the user meh 

3 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

The thing is if everyone gets to use it, its plain op.

No its not, if everyone uses it then no one can finish off enemies. 

Someone has to be outside of rift to do anything. Or limbo has to help us

So that isnt op in the slightest bit. 

3 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

few sec its basically a "free" rolling guard

Rolling guard lets you attack enemies and take no damage. If limbo could do that then id say youre right, rifting is op

But you cant, rifting just saves you from enemies outside rift and prevents you from hurting them.

Rifting is basically when you parkour a lot to not get shot. Only difference is Rift lets u stay still, parkour breaks your fingers

 

The idea with the portal in rift doesnt fix the problem too, it only changes the direction i must run to to kill enemies. More unnecessary complications

Edited March 7, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

• into rift: - 10% max hp, armor & shield (new 100% value)
• out off rift: -10% active hp, armor & shield

This is way too overpowered. There will be no point in not having a limbo for hard missions, especially if enemies armor is near gone. Its why hp% damaging abilities arent added unless its a 1 time use. It needs to be way harder to use, and forcefullu limited by means outside of energy usage

In low level missions, its pointless considering limbo would just kill them with a weapon.

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

• 2energy/sec while in rift
• 10 energy/enemy in rift killed
• 15% sprint speed, casting speed, holsterrate, stagger recover,knockback recovery, -10% status effect duration

Not bad

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

Rift Transition: enter rift without displacement, but short "animation" (how old rift entering used to be) --> max 60sec not affected by mods (automatically leaves rift). leaves "portal" for 10sec at transition point. (can be used to enter/leave rift, without "animation")

As i said i dont think this will mean much. The player can just hide and wait. 

The way limbo's defense is so low makes the quick transition fun in my opinion. It makes keaving rift very scary. If you want encouragment to leave rift, it should be a choice for a risk-reward scenario, rather than just forcing players out of it. 

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

Tap for Radial Banish around Selected Target and only faction of that target --> only allies/only enemies

No i get trolled too much by every limbo who has the ability. The players who dont know they can roll out of it are extra frustrated. 98% of the time, it doesnt help anyway. Players are always trying to attack and this ability makes it harder for no good reason

Its not a cool ability. Its the whole reason you hardly see limbos in most missions anymore except in a mobile defense or spy mission. Cause limbo is powerful when no 1 wants to attack anything... other than that hes a nuisance.

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

Leaves a Rift Portal (like Dashing/Rolling does) infront of Limbo for the Duration of Banish (max 2 portals open, 1from dash and 1 from banish)

• portal in cataclysm = small "window" to normal plane (going through it does nothing, but you can hurt enemies outside cataclysm)

 

Thats good for limbo but a unconsented hassle with no worthy rewards for allies.

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

slows time down for enemies in the rift, increasing in strength till full "time stop". (prolongs status duration).

I only still want quick freeze because its far more fun and balanced given Limbos low shields and health. He needs  quick save abilities.

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

charges enemies (in rift + range) and allies (in range) . recasting 3 refreshes duration of all enemies in rift. (surge/transfers --> range (surge) 30m, transfer (10m around enemy) duration as now (25sec)

•  

1.) What does "Surge/transfers --> range (surge) 30m" mean? The slash, "-->", and "range (surge)" arent making sense to me. 

2.) Damage buffs will be hardly noticeable. The energy regeneration is okay but we already get 10 energy from getting kills so rift surge is still just, there. 

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

on Collapsing (running out of duration or recasting --> "closing"): 5% active hp from enemies that are still in cataclysm

What? This sentence is incomplete, what is 5% active hp from enemies doing to what?  

On 2020-01-03 at 2:08 PM, BloodyEy3 said:

base dmg+collaps dmg add)*0,02/%sec active) * 5%dmg amp for each enemy killed in cataclysm

For scaling damage? Meh, scaling damage wouldnt be bad.

 

 

Yea thats all okay for limbo users eventhough limbo is a powerful frame for the user already. Adding more power really isnt his problem but im welcome to it.

After reading the ability changes, i dont see anything that removes his annoyance to allies which is creating annoying hassle for kills. If that hassle preventing me from killing was completely removed, id play limbo and be okay with him in any mission, and so would others.

Edited March 7, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[BloodyEy3]

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

This is way too overpowered. There will be no point in not having a limbo for hard missions, especially if enemies armor is near gone.

--> this is kinda complicated. i think i gave a math example for it more or less in my first comment on the thread (1 spoiler)

the way its ment to be is that if enemy gets into rift (taking base value 100 and only hp for simplicitiy), he ends up having 90hp (but 90hp is still counted as 100% hp).

if the enemy leaves the rift then, it is dealt 10% active value as dmg --> would mean 90hp *0,9 = 81hp (but as it leaves the rift the rift state debuff is gone) --> 90hp*1,1 = 99hp (new max hp value) --> 81+9 = 90/99 hp (thats not that many stats taken away --> needs really alot of rift transitions to be op !

with banish i guess it could be stronger as "banishs" effect is permanent and scales with strength (numbers can always be adjusted as i stated. if its too op, just haf the bonus to 50%)

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

As i said i dont think this will mean much. The player can just hide and wait. 

The way limbo's defense is so low makes the quick transition is fun in my opinion. If you want encouragment to leave rift, it should be a choice for arisk-reward scenario, rather than just being forced out. 

yes he can hide for 60sec and then forcefully leaves the rift having to enter rift again. this atleast gives a forced reaction every min instead of every 4min and 59 sec cause of afk mark.

its ment to be quicker and more versitle then the dash. for example it takes 0,5sec which get 80% dmg reduction over animation, but you can still perform all maneuvers only thing you cant do is attack while transitioning. --> no displacement, no self cc (cant do anything while in dash animation)

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

Its not a cool ability. Its the whole reason you hardly see limbos except in mobile defense or spy missions. 

personally i think the concept itself is very cool. it just doesnt work well with riftdash together.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

No i get trolled too much by every limbo who has the ability. The players who dont know they can roll out of it are extra frustrated. 98% of the time, it doesnt help anyway. Players are always trying to attack and this ability makes it harder for no good reason

you said

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

Freezing problematic enemies

the tap banish is literally that. the reason why u are banished is mainly because u just happend to be there. Atm banish doenst require line of sight so if u stand behind a door and limbo targets an enemy 5m before the door with banish, he may banish you aswell. range in generall is hard to see, even worse if no line of sight is requirent and works through walls.

thats why the tap. only banishes the faction of target. if he is hovering the enemy he banishes only enemies. if he targets an ally (npc, or player) only those get banished. so there is actually alot less "accidentals banishes". And if he is just banishing to annoy you, you simply report him

the argument stopping to kill is dumb. (you said the same in previous comment) i disagree with it. For you maybe the only thing mattering is kill and dmg. You go public cause u like the game on easy difficulty and dont care for mission objective which is fine. but aslong as he doesnt completly hinder the mission i think havig few targets not damangable is not as horrible as you make it out to be.

--> if u really want to kill those 4 targets limbo banished then noone stops u to move to the portal which has a map marker, enter the rift via it and kill the 4 enemies that annoyed you so much.

on that regard what do  usay about nxy 1, inaros sand soldiers, nekros shadows, nidus link, titainia 3, garuda blood let, all me the enemies unable for u to kill aswell.

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

Thats good for limbo but a unconsented hassle with no wanted reward for allies.

you more or less asked for it aswell in ur previous statement.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

I 100% stand behind this. Quickly being able to choose whether you want to be rifted or not instead of just choosing when you want to be unrifted would make me much much more okay with a limbo in my squad. I love hus abilities and how they give you passive energy regeneration even during ability draining abilities, but having random invincible enemies all over the map that i have to wait for limbo to rift me before i can kill them

you can enter when u want if there are enemies banished. there probably will be a portal somewhat close aswell.

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

1.) What does "Surge/transfers --> range (surge) 30m" mean? The slash, "-->", and "range (surge)" arent making sense to me

2.) Buffs will be hardly noticeable. The energy regeneration is okay but we already get 10 energy from getting kills. 

surge is the range where enemies in the rift get charged with the rift surge. its also the range in which allies get their cross plane dmg buff.

the transfere range is the range around the the enemy with the riftsurge charge. so if that target is killed the charge will look for unaffected targets in a 10m area.

you probably missunderstood the buff part: --> ull get 1/4 of the rift passive even if outside the rift --> 1/4 is still alot better then no buff outside rift.

the enemies with rift surge take 15% more dmg. and you as a none limbo player will deal 20% of ur dmg to rift bound enemies while not in the rift. (so you can keep on killing everything and benefit alittle from limbo passive, but well its harder to kill enemies as 1/5 of ur dmg in later stages make it more difficult

--> strength buffs dmg amp and the cross rift dmg, banish (and rift in general) reduces max hp armor shield value. so it will be alot quite alot easier for everyone to kill targets

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

What? This sentence is incomplete, what is 5% active hp from enemies doing to what?  

ill try to explain what i meant: in ur catalcysm are 10 enemies they all have 50% hp --> they have 1000 max hp (for simplicity/ max value) you cast 3. now enemies cant leave cataclysm. so when the cataclysm collapses all 10 enemies are "vaccumed" to the min range point. 5% of the hp is taken so for 10 enemies with 50% max hp --> 500 active hp, from that 5% so 25hp * 10 --> 250 dmg  if enemies have 10000 and all have 100% hp --> its 500*10 --> 5000 bonus dmg added

no then i added a duration thing. so when cataclysm duration naturally reaches its end, it always will deal 200% dmg. each enmy killed in the the cataclysm will then amplify the dmg by 5% for each kill aswell. --> the explosion dmg will always be over the intinal cataclysm range, but have 50% value at max range (dmg fall off). Since you have to go min duration for nuke build to work (as main factor for the dmg is if it ended naturally)

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

After reading the ability changes, i dont see anything that removes his annoyance to allies which is creating annoying hassle for kills.

1. rift portals (same duration as banish + map marker). 2. rift surge cross plane dmg compartment for allies (only works from normal play to rift plane and only for allies, limbo doent get effect himself)

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

I only still want quick freeze because its far more fun and balanced given Limbos low shields and health. Needs  quick saves

nah thats the problem. its not balanced at all ! its super strong. The downside at first was you urself not bein able to use weapos since prjectiles got frozen up aswell. when they removed it they gutted the duration, so know you have to more or less use it twice for each ability you use, giving enemies a small windo to kill you.

-->  i gave the option for it back on the augment. sacrificing a mod slot for it doesnt seem bad, as its really strong.

 

PS: personally i think squad play should be a give and take ! You should need to play around or better with allies to maximize their use. Having 4 people drooling themselfs playing as if they are solo but stacking 4x the buffs and debuffs seems not fun and counterintrusive to teamplay.

if u dont want to write, talk, or play with peoples you can always play solo. I ll take my limbo into every mission (mind you i generally use 60-70% range).

if i accidantally banish someone cause of weird hitboxes, then i tell them i am sorry, and unbanish them if they havent shift yet. And besides some weird people that go into public mission with minmax build that randomly harrass people for not "contributing" to the mission (speeding mission up) or passionate limbo haters i dont tend to get negative feedback.

ps ps: longest ps ever

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by BloodyEy3

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

the argument stopping to kill is dumb. (you said the same in previous comment) i disagree with it. For you maybe the only thing mattering is kill and dmg. You go public cause u like the game on easy difficulty and dont care for mission objective which is fine. but aslong as he doesnt completly hinder the mission i think havig few targets not damangable is not as horrible as you make it out to be.

Youre partly right, I do stay on public for missions that are unimportant to me, which is near 85% of the time

But

1.) Ive done a 7 hour excavation mission where enemies were well over level 1000 (yes 3 zeros).

2.) Whenever i find a good team and we are not farming anything, we stay till level 200-300 or until are weapon damage isnt doing anything anymore For Fun. I like to take it easy and i like to play as hard as i can. My difficulty preference is only making my judgment desire for limbo to always be beneficial to the team, if not then benefital to the majority of players. 

3.) The argument to not kill is not dumb considering the fact that a game's existence is harmed each time it doesnt adhere to the majority of players preference and is lengthened each time it does the opposite. Calling a majority preference argument dumb on a topic about a video games? Unless im wrong about it being in the majority, what are you talking about???

Also, I dont understand why you tried to compare me talking about freezing with limbos 4th ability to his 1st. Enemies movement is not a problem with limbos 1st ability as much as it is in his 4th so of course i dont mind freezing with his 4th. His 1st has a whole nother reason i dislike it, and freezing enemies certainly doesnt fix it... im pretty sure lol

3 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

i think havig few targets not damangable is not as horrible as you make it out to be

It is when its not required to make a warframe good.... 

Check out Zephyr tornado, Vauban bounce charge, hydroid puddle, and Impact status effect reworks if you dont believe me. A few unkillable enemies is a bad design for warframes, and is never necessary to make warframes good. Heck, limbos 4th ability used to only cause ranged weapons to not be able to help with killing, but melee weapons still worked, look what happened to him lol.

Edited March 7, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[BloodyEy3]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

Also, I dont understand you tried to compare me talking about freezing with limbos 4th ability to his 1st. Enemies movement is not a problem with limbos 1st ability as much as it is in his 4th so of course i dont mind it with his 4th. His 1st has a whole nother reason that you missed..

i still dont get. whats ur point ? you speak about stasis right ? how is stasis not usefull for banish ?

limbo has nearly no surviveability outside rift. 2 of his abilites dont work outside the rift and cataclysm is kinda energy expsive if its used on the "move". the reason he has good surviveability is because of the rift and his ability (dash) so swiftly enter it.

Now in the rift his survivablity isnt by alot of means higher in general, it stems from his extremly good cc (stasis). when enemies cant move, they cant attack you, so u kinda cant take dmg, added with the "split" battlefield few in rift, alot outside it gives him his genreal good survivablity if played around those factors.

so the enemy movement is not important on limbos 1 makes no sense. u stasis because u more or less have to because u will die if u dont. with banish u dont necersarly have to use stasis as it has an innate knockdown but that only does soo much.

4+2 is clearly is overall better, as it kinda fixes every problem stasis has and additionally enables the protection of static defense targets.

problem is 4+2 is too #*!%ing strong. thats why u said limbo is already strong. 95% of the reason u said he is strong, is because of stasis and cataclysm interaction. And i dont disagree with that. it outshines every other defensive ability in the game, since it doesnt has "hp" (gara, frost) and lets no attacks from outside hurt stuff inside (khora). And in combinations with 2 they basically cant even enter cataclysm, as they are frozen on the rift, take constant rift transition dmg.

--> 2 problems with that. 4 can cover an extremle huge area with + range builds (godlike vs grineer + infested), but because of that extreme range it can be difficult to play around it. 2nd problem is because of the stasis combination which is absolutly fantastic for + duration - range build for defensive properties, can make it quite annoying to actually play around cataclysm. Enemies on the edge enter and leave rift constantly. so it makes dmging enmies in that zone quite difficult (from both sides). You can work against that pressing 3 so they radial banish on leaving cataclysm edge, creating a zone outside of cataclysm of banished targets --> makes it easer to kill form inside cataclysm, but worse from outside.

What you say is: use -range + duration build and accept ur only job is sitting besides defense target and pressing 4+2, since u essentially have no other abilities left in ur kit that are usefull cause of - range.

and the moment someone uses + range + duration build you say: ahhhh #*!%ing limbo i cant kill enmies because of rift, why you trolling me.

and i dont disagree with you. +range +duration builds tend to be somewhat annoying, and -range + duration build are the bests for the squad (but kinda the worst for limbo himself).

so what i tried to do was take abit off straight up power form cataclyms and stasis and put them respectivly on 1 and 3.

vor 37 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

t is when its not required to make a warframe good....

do you even know what a theme is ? i mean since you started with "i want everyone to have riftdash if limbo is in team" i guess you dont. It just reads like "i dont give a #*!%ing damn about limbo, i ll never touch limbo, the only thing i want is my freedom in killing everything"

Ur revisted limbo kit:

Rift Dash: removed rift ! dashing enters invuerability state but cant deal dmg aswell. dash again to end invuerbility state. gain 5/energy per sec while in invunerbiltiy state.

Banish: cone as it is. rift removed. knock enemies down opening them up to ground finishers, allies hit have their negative status effects removed

stasis: if active. freezes targets hit by 1 in "open for finisher" state. speeds up allies in cataclysm.

rift surge: riftsurged targets cant pass through cataclysm. riftsurge targets affected by banish. have 15% hp/armor/shield stripped.

cataclysm: rift removed. just a bubble (like frost but has no hp), shrinks over time.

--> rift completly removed. all down sides gone. limbo theme completle gone because of it but inherently more teamfriendly and overall better.

 

Just as an additonal info. this is more addressed to limbo players.. who the #*!% cares if none limbo players like his kit or not ? they dont care they dont play him.

his 4+2 will still be super strong for defense missions. since basically nothing is really changed about it

but besides that he is overall better and more usefull. grineer and infested are slightly more difficult to play against, while corpus will be slightly less difficult. just by playing the game useing his abilities normally he automatically gives his team options/effects to either join him in the rift or kill enemies inside rift without entering.

Limbo will have slighty more dmg, but alot more utility, for a small amount of reduced "survivablity" since stasis is not instant. His augments are actually worth useing. 3 augments is a great overall buff. good dmg amp + dmg reduction, for everyone that kills riftsurged targets.

Stasis augment, gives him again his survivablity back and upgrading his defensive capabilites to "old" values (since its same as now).

Banish augment: gives heal and max hp.

--> all those changes are ment so people acutally want to enter the rift to stack up their buff or to swiftly heal.

as you say there is no real reason to enter the rift for most warframes besides small energy gain. besides a few warframes most have so much innate survivablity that they dont need "stasis" and "rift" to survive. So atm limbo is handicapped by it, while others dont really benefit by it. --> hence the reason why everyone hates to enter the rift

and before you say "but i still cant kill enemies if they are in the rift and i am not" ---> i said it twice, u either overread it or ingored it. riftsurge grants every ally in 30m range (only need to be in range at moment of cast to receive buff) a buff, granting the weapon 20% dmg into the riftplane. So you can dmg the riftbound target, while u are not in the rift.

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

His 1st has a whole nother reason that you missed..

what did i miss ? longe narrow cone, doenst require line of sight, goes throw walls, has a quadtratic hitbox around limbo himself so even with - range build, looking at the target u want to banish infront of u, u can banish targets left and right, aswell as behind you (while still lookin at the target infront of u).

it instead of cataclysm forces you to be in the same plane as the enemy. since stasis doesnt work outside rift you are forced to use banish to survive then enter via rift dash, or just stay in rift and use 4 since again its overall better.

--> all those are negative aspects hence no real reason to use it. banish before rework was single target worked regarding on plane always pushing it into the targets diffrent plane and was single target. problem with single target in game where 200 enmies swarm you is kinda useless. before the rework you had to use - range since useing high range with cataclysm just ment you may asell not use cataclysm atall (he didnt have stasis, so he had no real survivablity).

So with the update they gave him aoe banish. because of that he needed some additional survivablity. at first they went with the cool time freeze gimmick version of stasis, that forced everyone to melee. because everyone hated having his primary and secondary weapions disabled they changed that and decreased duration. i am pretty sure they disliked 4 being basically a somewhat decnet defensive ability with minus range and having to real other reason besides that (2nd reason for stasis --> as it promotes high range cataclysm builds). rift surge (in concept) was this great ability of mini cataclysm which got scrabed and put to this cataclysm bandaid and "1+3 synergy" what ever its ment to be. and for whatever reason they then decided to give limbo a unique dash into the rift (99% its was limbos rework selling point).

Now because he could change rifts without duration and without expending energy, while being able to "stasis" enmies inside the rift, they had to give him a negative aspect, or it would have been too strong (i think rework was released with octavia ? and octavia clearly wasnt too strong and still is not too strong ?) so they made banish only work while limbo is in same plane. Which killed his first and 3rd ability by default (because they are not worth useing) pushing him to 4+2... while 4+2 is great with range.. 4+2 with range can be annoying for team. so basically limbo got pushed back to useing 4 on defense target (which is stronger now cause he has 2, to support it) and riftdash, which made it easier to go afk besides ur cataclysm. (disregarded the short amount of time nuke like existest cause transition dmg was max hp based or sth like that, or it was cataclyms collapse dmg, sht had a weird calcuklation which got fixed quickly)

--> so while limbo is obviously stronger because his old 2 got shifted to passive rift dash for no costs (having sth for free is always a buff) and then giving him great instant hard cc. nothing really is changed

he is now mainly used to go afk, or by new players because rift is as strong with mods as without. and range + duration is op vs grineer and infested which are the only 2 factions that low mr plays against as nullifiers are anti-fun guys.

so saying his less used abilitie dont deserve change cause 4+2 are making him strong, aswell as the minimal reduced effectivnes off 2 being asnwered with "i like how 2 is, its balanced and fun"

[BloodyEy3]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

Check out Zephyr tornado, Vauban bounce charge, hydroid puddle, and Impact status effect reworks if you dont believe me. A few unkillable enemies is a bad design for warframes, and is never necessary to make warframes good. Heck, limbos 4th ability used to only cause ranged weapons to not be able to help with killing, but melee weapons still worked, look what happened to him lol.

thats cc. what you are saying is rift is bad. the problem u are havign with is rift. the whole 2nd dimension. as it comes with general restrictions for everyone.

and i personally absolutly do not care about those abilites. if people wanna use them they can. the thing thats more annoying is zephyr cant really stop her tornados, vauban cant really "disable" his bouny trap. hydroid can just stop using it and all enemies pop up so its not bad. impact atm is pretty more bugged (hotfixe said its not suppose to ragdoll anymore).

i ll just tell it once. imagine enmies dealing more dmg (and with this i mainly mean. reduce all dmg reduction bullS#&$ we have. adaption. arcane guardian, abilites reachin 90% dmg reduction with just max intesify.) now lets go further. imagine a world, where no rivens exists that absolutle break our weapon dmg beyond any point of balanceing. lets go 1 step further. imagine a world where a dmg buff reach 300% without any real effort. (looking at general warframe ability buffs). We can go even beyond that. now imagine a world where not every singe warframe has a buff, a debuff,  75% dmg reduction from arcane guardian, 90% dmg reduction from adaption, magus lockdown for cc and dmg, magus elevate for instant heal. do we want to go even futher beyond? yes we do. a world where melee i single target. not aoe 6m range (highest base dmg of all weapons, whith heavyattack spam and spin to win still existing). Where the strongest primary weapons are either that oneshot every target (snipers and used to be shotguns) or oneshots everything without even aiming (every aoe/ launcher).

Wow. you mean a game where fighting enmies may actually be difficult ? you mean a world where decent balance can exist ? you mean a world where differnt warframes abilities neeed to be used in cohension to fight of enemies. And now u just met a world where any sort of cc is relevant.

I do realise Warframe moved more and more and more away from that regard. the only time cc is valueable is when u start playing the game, have to play solo to finish star chart missions and complete objectives. after that killing is everything. you kill everything so fast, with so little effort why owuld be bother to cc an eney for 1 sec. hey u playing trinity ? why even use 3+4. you are in a constant never ending loop of 3+4 (cause low duration) then 2 to interacte energy drain. and repeat. for most contnet arcane guardian + arcane aegis + adaption enables you to tank enemies inaros style till lvl 140+ and when u actually took dmg for once you just need to press 4.

so yeah i mean you can see they noticed their mistake. that a warframe themed like limbo doesnt really work. Cause look at wisp. "weaves between dimensions", nice way to describe "is invisble". gives somewhat limbo like feel but isnt really

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

5 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

thats cc. what you are saying is rift is bad.

Nope, thts not what im saying. 

Okay im done, i read everything and you arent keeping up at all man... sorry but i gotta go cause this means we will be at this forever and im not going through that

Edited March 8, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

-snip-

Edited March 8, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII