Lack of Calculated Content Pacing

[Genitive]

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It looks like DE listened, and created a pair systems that would go hand in glove, taking several months to complete. The first being intrinsics, the second being collecting the rare drops. Together they combine to give a player very powerful tools in order to do the Railjack content. You would have managed to get the "best gear" and would be at "completion". Seems like they expected this to take a couple of months? 

It's not healthy if the game has randomised drops and then gives them a poor drop rate. It turns from looking for the best gear into wasting time – you spend time looking for a specific part only for it to be worse than what you can craft in dojo.

If you want loot with random stats players should be flooded with it. Look at Borderlands or even Diablo 3 post loot changes. Players get stuff all the time. Not always useful stuff, but you don't have a feeling you're wasting time, because there is a chance of getting something interesting at all times. Warframe has it all backwards – you spend hours to get rubbish or nothing at all.

On top of that you have horrendous resource costs and repair drones that are pretty scummy.

DE seem to think that people will spend months collecting best gear, when in reality they will get tired of grinding with no results. 

[Avienas]

35 minutes ago, Genitive said:

It's not healthy if the game has randomised drops and then gives them a poor drop rate. It turns from looking for the best gear into wasting time – you spend time looking for a specific part only for it to be worse than what you can craft in dojo.

Exactly, The parts are not even got a proper Quirk to them. Its just 2 random stat lines with MKIII having certain houses have a coin flip of two different perks you can get with no real ability to manipulate it except keep rolling for that random part you cannot enhance in any way, which avionics is the closest we have onto real customization and even then its the same b.s. warframe setup.

where Avionics are mostly boosting by the BASE stats. When changing out the parts should modify the base so you get bigger returns on the Avionics. Which was always one annoying pet-peeve on had to warframe customization since ranking up gives what is effectively 50~200% innate Vitality mod, along with the other base stats getting `boosted`. Basically putting some annoying over complicated elements on the mutipliers, amongst other things, which makes it tiresome for people to figure out how much will boost what so you have a clear idea on particular things.\

Still do not get why D.E. does not let us RETAIN the rank base stats and the abilities once we put one forma on the frame, its an annoying detriment that only serves to acts as a lock to prevent people from running into Sortie and even the whole ability rank up part while `unlocking them again` after the first forma, is another annoyance, especially since you cannot run any regular content to get the stats back and some frames are worst then paper mache even while grinding on hydron without thar abilities, especially when trying to get some extra forma on it.

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If you want loot with random stats players should be flooded with it. Look at Borderlands or even Diablo 3 post loot changes. Players get stuff all the time. Not always useful stuff, but you don't have a feeling you're wasting time, because there is a chance of getting something interesting at all times. Warframe has it all backwards – you spend hours to get rubbish or nothing at all.

Borderlands at the very least kept the variation VERY small and if you used Borderland 3`s inspect element, you can see its made of half a dozen or so modifier parts which once you notice those elements, things are not as random as they see for the values. Granted you might want a specific combination for legendaries, but between the bonus loot modifiers by equipping artifacts, the Guardian rank bonus and the MAYHEM mode bonus, plus World Freaking Drops and there was always a pool of legendaries with particular bosses...Well you are basically able to get legendaries with some values you might like and not forced to rail road to only one specific legendary period.

Course i kind of feel like Legendary mods are the annoying one to get, but that could just be me wanting certain Legendary Class mods for Amara & FL4K. 

If warframe at the very least made ALOT of mods more innate such as the raw damage mods of Serration, the multi shot `DPS` of split chamber, heck even the critical/critical damage/status bonus chance mods might as well become all innate and maybe we have some more space to place mods. The critical issue is there is way too many stats to deal with on a pool of 8~10 mod slots and limited capacity and most get META pick`d because people have to run those mods or thar weapon is going to be utter garbage. Its kind of why one way i would like warframe`s mod system to work with is durability and raw damage `stats` would be all innate and the mod bench would be purely for utility and gimmick effects, Such as Quick draw, bladed rounds, Shred, Heck Firestorm, Thunderbolt and so on would be amongst the list i say would be more interesting. Since the idea would of felt more akin to creating your own whacky gun that could likely end up being more viable(especially in regular content) and FUN, then just creating what is creating just another standard assault rifle in most cases.

But sadly that is something i am only dream of, despite the fact it would feel more like real customization, unlike how most mods in warframe leave you with 2 maybe 3 slots of real customization. Plus if anyone were to say PRIMED mods and Sacrificial/Umbral mods exist, D.E. could easily move those effects onto different mods or maybe, have it as a special enhancement element one could apply to regular guns or something like that, but then people are going to riot obviously if guns started to get the `Gilding treatment`.

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On top of that you have horrendous resource costs and repair drones that are pretty scummy.

DE seem to think that people will spend months collecting best gear, when in reality they will get tired of grinding with no results. 

I still honetly feel like the wait time should of been 1, maybe 3 hours at most for repairs and the titanium cost should of be 1k/3k/6k for the various MKs, since all the other materials are not that hard to get, especially when i was amazed despite the 1500~ tachyon cost on some of the later stuff, that stuff floods in like 200~600 a pop in veil missions easy. Yet Titanium still required you to ONLY get from wreckage or faintly glowing orange rocks which its only those special metal cubes. Should of honestly had the entire ship parts as completely destructible and you could get titanium from every part. While removing the orange glowing rocks since those things are too randomly placed, With at the very least the red glowing mines were more NOTICEABLE and were always in a bundle of them floating near eachother so they were not that hard to spot.

Plus i already got MK III of shields/reactor/engine/seekers/pilot/turret parts, they are not in the 90~100% upper tier perfect rolls but they certainly are more then enough for what i need, even if i still need get my hands on a Void Cloak, A Better Rip load avionics(which is not really needed but i would like to fire seekers faster) and then the thousands of dirac to maximize the ship better. So honestly the thing could easily be done in a week or two(maybe 3 for real casuals who are not big fans of the titanium farm either), when you ignore the maximum rolls, when about 75% or so of the highest possible primary concern stats are plenty enough, for about the minimum point.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Avienas

[844448]

3 hours ago, Lers said:

I would kindly ask you to provide examples, because I'm drawing a blank here. Successful and praised examples that mainly relied on RNG to progress in a vital part of a games power system (generators) with such a low chance of success (2% and whatever chance we have at a decent 80+ roll on the power stat). The current drop rate of Vidar reactors, combined with the random stat rolls is horrid. I got lucky and got a decent 84 rolled on my 6th drop, but before that I got reactors all in the sub 40 range.

This might sound harsh, but the percentages actually remind me of the enchanting system of korean MMOs. Upside being I don't lose my reactor if I fail getting a new, better one. I dont like banging my head against spiked RNG walls, just to not progress anywhere towards the goals set. I prefer longer, constant grinds, low amounts of RNG, and progress made after time invested.

 

Borderlands have a lot of random stats where you can get -damage stat, yet still praised as a great gameplay, same thing with any game with this kind of RNG from path of exile to any genre to choose

[Lers]

21 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Borderlands have a lot of random stats where you can get -damage stat, yet still praised as a great gameplay, same thing with any game with this kind of RNG from path of exile to any genre to choose

Borderlands spices up progression with RNG, but chances are way more in the players favour. You are literally FLOODED with drops, and usually the increment in power between a weapon used and a new better drop is meaningful to marginal. You also dont have to invest additional resources into guns already dropped, so you are free to mix, match and experiment. You are also never forced to stop and grind the same single spot in the progression before you can move on. Some of this can be chalked up to a difference in game style, but it IS a smart move to retain player engagement, making them feel like progressing, even if marginally.

The difference is in loot frequency and potency. Railjack drops loot much less often, and then introduces a very wide margin of random stats that makes a majority of that rare loot Dirac fodder (so much so that its even worse than the more or less free Sigma versions), so you end up a lot more often feeling without progress.

I do not deny that RNG can make things fun, but relying on it too much, skewing numbers this much in the systems favour, just to stretch out the lifetime of your content  does not speak well of whoever designed it OR the intent behind why it was designed the way it was.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Lers

[844448]

1 minute ago, Lers said:

Borderlands spices up progression with RNG, but chances are way more in the players favour. You are literally FLOODED with drops, and usually the increment in power between a weapon used and a new better drop is meaningful to marginal. You also dont have to invest additional resources into guns already dropped, so you are free to mix, match and experiment. You are also never forced to stop and grind the same single spot in the progression before you can move on. Some of this can be chalked up to a difference in game style, but it IS a smart move to retain player engagement, making them feel like progressing, even if marginally.

The difference is in frequency. Railjack drops loot much less often, and then introduces a very wide margin of random stats that makes a majority of that rare loot Dirac fodder, so you end up a lot more often feeling without progression.

I do not deny that RNG can make things fun, but relying on it too much, skewing numbers this much in the systems favour, just to stretch out the lifetime of your content  does not speak well of whoever designed it OR the intent behind why it was designed the way it was.

So a flood of trash to some random drop? In that flood, how many that will be actually useful? Also, I believe Dirac also contributes as the consideration where getting flooded with wreckage means you will have millions of Dirac in no time and it will have nowhere to go once you fully upgraded the avionics and grids or they have to increase the upgrade cost

Are we forced to grind the same spot for progression? No, we're not forced at all, it's just the people who just grind to reach the max then complain when there are so many places to do that in an enjoyable way

[Lers]

46 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So a flood of trash to some random drop? In that flood, how many that will be actually useful? Also, I believe Dirac also contributes as the consideration where getting flooded with wreckage means you will have millions of Dirac in no time and it will have nowhere to go once you fully upgraded the avionics and grids or they have to increase the upgrade cost

Are we forced to grind the same spot for progression? No, we're not forced at all, it's just the people who just grind to reach the max then complain when there are so many places to do that in an enjoyable way

If drop chance goes up, Dirac gained from trashing them can go down. The lower range of randomized stats could also go up, so that they're always at least marginally better than a standard Sigma part. Dirac is already pointless, as we already have that large number of trash drops you mention: Zetki parts. You get like 2-3 each mission and they're usually at best on par with the Sigma parts (yes, yes, aside from weapons, but those have their own issues).

They could also keep the 2% drop chance of the Vidar parts, but then make the power roll on them between 70-100, appropriately weighed towards the lower rolls.

Perfectionists could grind their heart out for a perfect roll, but at the very least, it shouldn't be a randomized ordeal to get an "ok" roll on a rare part.

And aren't we locked in place? If you want to actually use your railjack in a mission you get faceblocked as soon as the end of Earth if you dont get better parts (or archwing the whole mission). You either pony up the resources for Sigma parts (which involves a lot of waiting or relying on the clan) or you hop onto someone elses ship, ignoring you own ship until you get your ideal parts.... which is an option I guess, but again it speaks volumes about system design.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Lers

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

Borderlands have a lot of random stats where you can get -damage stat, yet still praised as a great gameplay, same thing with any game with this kind of RNG from path of exile to any genre to choose

In most cases those tend to be the Jakobs or Bandit guns where the former tended to have absurdly high base damage, firing shots in a fan the hammer style, firing multiple rounds or especially in the BL3 version, pretty much having richochet effect on criticals on basically every jakobs brand gun. As for the Bandit ones, the BL3 ones aka COV type ones, were all about hosing with absurd ammo clips with a overheat system which did not feel that out of place, Only real downside being how much ammo gets bled out rather fast on ends.

Honestly if you take a look at BL3`s weapon family setup they keep it simple. Jakob`s were the non-elemental focused head shoot`ie and raw damage sticks, Atlas tends to be the reliables with its BL3 format using the weapon switch mode for things like shotgun/grenade/rocket alt fires, maliwan was your go-to for elementals, hyperion became your personal defensive turret & spam fire guns, CoV were your sprayers, just like how the previous BL bandit guns were like, all about hosing bullets then damage per bullet and so on and so on. Not even mentioning when you got to flavor text & the Orange flavored Legendary guns.

But just like with Destiny, Path of Exile and plenty of other loot-centric games, They were about giving you a quantity of goods to use immediately or later scrap for resources, If one had to take a firm glance at warframe, its LESS like those types of games and feels more like a Monster Hunter game but in TPShooter style in terms of how loot is handled. Since in MH based games you had to kill targets and use resources to build new gear to make use of, which especially held true when you got into customization like slotting stat boosting `gems` and what not.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Avienas

[Test-995]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Devs aren’t wait, they are working on new Content. Softening present Content also means less time for work on new Content, faster “Content drought”. Players are, with their complaints, pushing Devs under pressure and then they are surprised that the new Content is unfinished.

Yeah, basically they hearing for community when they shouldn't, and ignoring community when they should.

Right?

Edited January 8, 2020 by Test-995

[Skaleek]

7 hours ago, Lers said:

They could also keep the 2% drop chance of the Vidar parts, but then make the power roll on them between 70-100, appropriately weighed towards the lower rolls

No thanks. Weighting is not on my list of wants from this system. Would rather have higher variance, at least my odds to roll 100 are the same as rolling 30.

[Lers]

1 hour ago, Skaleek said:

No thanks. Weighting is not on my list of wants from this system. Would rather have higher variance, at least my odds to roll 100 are the same as rolling 30.

Not my ideal solution but it would still work out better than what we have now. I don't mind if they stack the RNG sky high. Its nothing new in Warframe. My issue is that mainly with generators, they locked a pretty big power boost behind a purely (double) RNG wall, and the stat rolls already seem weighed towards the low end (personal experience, I would need higher sample size to confirm). And on top of that, they then made resource costs on wreckage repair pretteh high, which makes crafting anything below a "great" roll highly discouraged.

Personally I don't care how they do it, I just want to get rid of these exponential, feast or famine type jumps between power levels locked behind RNG walls on the lower end of progression. Hell, personally I would prefer if we'd have easy access to the avionics and parts, and make some linearly grindable resource the bottleneck (like Dirac for avionics). Rolling for random better stuff is generally fine in my book, but only when you can reasonably reach a power level comfortable (but not nearly optimal) for the content level you are supposed to be grinding. And I don't think sigma parts are that comfortable in the Veil Grind.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Lers