Rhino Should Replace Loki As A Starter

[Leuca]

Because with Rhino, you can don't worry about Heavies radial blast, railgun moa, shockwave moas, scorpions, rollers, shield bash, latchers, disruptors, toxins and whatever future hazards that stand in your way.

 

Yes Iron skin is his calling card and is needed to do his job properly as The Tank™.

But giving such invulnerability early on PROMOTES bad game habits.

 

Letting newbies learn about hazards is a good thing, at least they don't play Warframe with rose tinted glasses.

That didn't answer my question. Why can't my first frame be viable in late game?

 

On your point though, there will be a time when Iron Skin fails and they die. They will eventually learn the repercussions of playing badly. You also assume that all new players slack common sense and are new to this type of gaming in general.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Leuca

[fatpig84]

That didn't answer my question. Why can't my first frame be viable in late game?

 

 

So you are telling me Loki, Mag and Excal are ALL not viable late game ??!

 

I use my Excal prime all the time in void survivals with lvl120 to lvl130 mobs. My loki has laughed in the face of level 165 grineer.

This is not a Frame problem, this is a player issue. And my Loki and Excal are both my number 1 and number 2 fave frames.

 

In one of the recent lvl120 survival alerts, I was the only Loki with 3 Rhinos since I enjoy using him at such games, is that a problem ?

Edited October 6, 2013 by fatpig84

[Pyromite]

My friend started with Loki. Even though he is better player than me in most games, he hated it so much, that he stopped playing after couple of missions.

 

Loki definitely needs to be replaced. While he is one of the best end-game frames, in the hands of newbie he is propably the worst possible choise.

For stealth play, other choises are Ash and Banshee. Comparing Ash to Loki, Ash has lots of health and 2 damaging abilities, while his skills don't scale that much on higher levels.Loki's skills become more and more useful on higher levels, while Ash is better in the beginning.

Banshee might not be that good at stealth, but her damaging skills might prevent newbies from frustrating.

 

What comes to Loki being replaced with a tank, it should be either Frost or Saryn, NOT Rhino

[Kornelijus2]

I think all frames should be an option as a starter frame, except for Primes of course.

 

No frame is supposed to be better than another.

newbs would realise what power nova has....

[ElectiDei]

I really don't think you should remove Loki as a starter frame, but instead just add Rhino. Rhino just seems to identify with the 3 starter frames, and by offering him and making it 4 possible starter frames, you make it so that every basic RPG archetype is represented.That would be standard warrior type(XCal), Caster(Mag), Debuffer/Controller(Loki), and Tank(Rhino).

[jpvi1207]

loki being harder to learn is the entire point

it's like a difficulty setting

he is even described as designed for advanced players

the loki has spoken

[legionprobatio]

I'd assume that Rhino will eventually be balanced. Why does everyone act like DE is never ever going to balance the frames?

They already nerfed rhino skin. Besides, rhino won't be "balanced" to the point where he should be a starter.

[blahdenoma]

New players shouldn't get Rhino, because he's slow as S#&$ already...and newbie players constantly fall behind in missions even while using Loki.

 

Imagine if you, as a first time player, plodded through a few missions finding nothing but loot left behind after your teammates swarmed through.  There's maybe one Grineer Lancer hiding in a corner half-dead already.  Then you get no credits because you can't make it to the extract in time.  Yeah, talk about frustrating.

[Salovon]

I realy would pick Rhino as a starter

[Leuca]

So you are telling me Loki, Mag and Excal are ALL not viable late game ??!

 

I use my Excal prime all the time in void survivals with lvl120 to lvl130 mobs. My loki has laughed in the face of level 165 grineer.

This is not a Frame problem, this is a player issue. And my Loki and Excal are both my number 1 and number 2 fave frames.

 

In one of the recent lvl120 survival alerts, I was the only Loki with 3 Rhinos since I enjoy using him at such games, is that a problem ?

I misunderstood you. I thought you were implying that the purpose of starter frames is purely to get you to invest in other frames. No harm done, I hope?

 

I think a big problem is the difference in early-game viability between certain frames. Looking back, I would have hated leveling a Trinity as my first frame in her current incarnation. My idealist side wants to have my beginning choice be fully mine, as it is in many other games where you pick your archetype from the full list, rather than having to pick from three out of however many there actually are.

 

I'm not saying Rhino should or shouldn't be moved to the starter frame position, but I just don't see how it's terribly detrimental to play. His basic functions will be easy to pick up, and the player will probably hit their gameplay changing point before they get to endgame, allowing them to understand the importance of using your abilities properly. I think more of the frames need a combination of easy-to-use skills that scale well into late game alongside some abilities that take more coordination to use, rather than simply one or the other.

 

This is the common argument I hear against it, that he's too strong. Doesn't that however highlight bigger issues within the game? If those issues were solved, the starter frame selection would be pretty irrelevant.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Leuca

[OptimumBow0]

I realy would pick Rhino as a starter

And then no one would pick Excalibur.

[Leuca]

And then no one would pick Excalibur.

Why?

[rksk16it]

Agree with OP. Loki is a bit too sophisticated to be given as an option to starters. He is a frame which requires both skill and gear (read: mods) to perform well. Like already been stated in this thread, you cannot do much with loki if you dont have some power enhancing mods (duration, efficiency etc).

 

But I can see some are too concerned with players developing bad habits and/or not learning the game when playing Rhino, which will clearly happen cuz 1200 dmg absorption for 50 energy is basically godmode for first few planets.

 

So I think instead of Rhino, Loki should be replaced by either :

1. Ash : Invisibility is still there, but there are some direct dmg abilities. New players can use them while they learn the game. Later when they are good enough, they can try Loki and decide for themselves if they want pure utility stealth or stick with less utility but more dmg.

2. Saryn : Tankiness with dmg abilities. You aint gonna die like Loki, but you dont have Rhino's godmode.

Edited October 6, 2013 by rksk16it

[Sublime_Lizard]

I personally love Loki the idea that I just throw decoy and run away if things get to tough is appealing to me, he can be good in the beggining just takes some getting used to that's all.

[semigod22]

i dont have nothing against rhino players. but its a fact that he is the easiest frame.

 

get iron skin and have fun. nothing can really stop u from goin on every mission and do it solo with 1 finger (except defense of course)

 

 

and after 3 months when the rhino players learned "what there is something else than iron skin?" they are even more strong & easy.

 

 

so him as starter would be a good choice

[OptimumBow0]

Why?

 

Rhino is basically Excalibur's "upgraded version" - Rhino Charge is basically Slash Dash, Roar is kind of like a more aggressive version of Radial Blind (Which does increase damage while enemies are stunned but usually it's used for buying time to run away) and Rhino Stomp is just like Excalibur's Radial Javelin, except it's not limited to 12 projectiles and it stuns enemies. Then you've got Excalibur's Super Jump and Rhino's Iron Skin, and Iron Skin is a whole lot more dang useful than Super Jump. Plus, Rhino has way more armor than Excal, more shields, and his sprint speed is just a tiny little tad slower. Give Rhino a Rush mod and your set. For life. 

 

It would ultimately come down to a decision between a Good Starter Frame or a Better One 

 

I think we all know what we would choose

 

And then Excalibur becomes the most worthless frame. Of all time. 

 

qq

Edited October 7, 2013 by OptimumBow0

[taiiat]

he is even described as designed for advanced players

the problem with that, is a new player isn't experienced with the game. i know MANY players which chose Loki as a starter frame, and did not enjoy Warframe much, because Loki is a very unforgiving frame while you a learning the game. 

 

Loki is great for those that like him, certainly. but he's just so much Utility and niche that he isn't a good choice for players that know nothing about Warframe yet. 

 

Loki is a Master level frame, yet he's offered to recruits. 

 

 

 

however i don't think Rhino is a good frame to fill that slot.

Abridged version is that Loki right now is clearly the worst starting choice. Yes, he is great after you:

1.Know the game very well

2.Have Continuity, Streamline, Constitution and Energy Siphon

3.Are facing higher level content

However I don't think most newbies meet those requirements.

this explains the issue quite well. 

Edited October 7, 2013 by taiiat

[bejuizb]

I remember starting off with a Loki. It was quite brutal initially, but I persisted an this increase in difficulty taught me to use cover and play tactically. I was forced to reset my account after two months of playing, and I decided to play as Excalibur. I'll just say that he takes absolutely no skill to dominate with. This applies to Mag as well. Loki should stay as a starter frame. The players who persist after choosing him will reap the benefits. The players who don't continue playing and just quit will just mean that the game will have many more skilled players. I don't mean to sound like a heartless egomaniac or anything, but playing as Loki gives you a taste for endgame content and makes you work for your wins. That's why I am such a good player, because of my Loki, not my press 1 to win Warframes

[TheHeraldXII]

I agree with moving Loki out of the starter lineup even though I started with a Loki and had no troubles. The reason I think this is because I don't think the starters should be a "difficulty setting", because you can't opt out of the 'frame you choose (even if it was a misclick, like mine was) and because people might want an easy 'frame but also want to play a 'thief' or 'mage'.

Rhino shouldn't be a starting 'frame however, first of all because that guy is straight up busted at low levels, secondly because he's mastery locked third being that Ash is a much better substitute for Loki. They both fit the 'thief' or 'assassin' archetypes, Ash has high health and armour which makes him a nice contrast to Mag and he's focussed on single-target damage instead of the AoE damage of Excal and Maggie. I guess a 4th point is Ash is much easier to pick up and learn than Loki which is what the starter 'frames should have in common.

 

Short version; why not trade Loki for Ash?

[Trainer772]

Rhino is too good as a starter frame, and it would obviously hurt DE's profits to have a great frame in easy reach. DE might be willing to take loki of the beginner list, but it's completely irrational to assume that DE is willing to put their best and most expensive frame as a starting choice.

 

 

Plus, giving beginners the best frame will spoil them and keep them from gaining skill fast since the frame will do the job for them.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Trainer772

[fatpig84]

New players shouldn't get Rhino, because he's slow as S#&$ already...and newbie players constantly fall behind in missions even while using Loki.

 

Imagine if you, as a first time player, plodded through a few missions finding nothing but loot left behind after your teammates swarmed through.  There's maybe one Grineer Lancer hiding in a corner half-dead already.  Then you get no credits because you can't make it to the extract in time.  Yeah, talk about frustrating.

 

This is the other reason.

Rhino is slow and if you are new, you won't be toting Vanguard with Rush and Quick rest which is what I do for my Rhino.

Anyhow swapping Loki for Ash is fine, but no Rhino god forbid.

Edited October 7, 2013 by fatpig84

[LukeAura]

Rhino is too much like Excalibur because they share a 1, and have decent crowd control. You want to give your starter players variety in their choices. If anything Replace Loki with Ash so you still have that stealth feel but don't get wrecked early game. 

[ChaoticVice777]

Rhino is basically Excalibur's "upgraded version" - Rhino Charge is basically Slash Dash, Roar is kind of like a more aggressive version of Radial Blind (Which does increase damage while enemies are stunned but usually it's used for buying time to run away) and Rhino Stomp is just like Excalibur's Radial Javelin, except it's not limited to 12 projectiles and it stuns enemies. Then you've got Excalibur's Super Jump and Rhino's Iron Skin, and Iron Skin is a whole lot more dang useful than Super Jump. Plus, Rhino has way more armor than Excal, more shields, and his sprint speed is just a tiny little tad slower. Give Rhino a Rush mod and your set. For life. 

 

It would ultimately come down to a decision between a Good Starter Frame or a Better One 

 

I think we all know what we would choose

 

And then Excalibur becomes the most worthless frame. Of all time. 

 

qq

 

Rhino is nowhere near an "upgraded" version of Excalibur:

 

1) Rhino Charge focuses on knockdown, Slash Dash focuses on mobility and damage.

 

2) Roar is not an aggressive form of Radial Blind. Higher damage doesn't mean jack compared to crowd control later in the game.

 

3) Super Jump is a niche ability compared to Rhino's "general-purpose" Iron Skin.

 

4) Rhino Stomp's plain out better than Radial Javelin except when Radial Javelin and Bullet Attractor are combined to hit a single target.

 

Overall, Excalibur is the jack of all trades, master of none Warframe while Rhino is the offensive crowd controlling tank. That being said, Rhino caters more to the population and general gameplay because he's easy to use and because late-game scenarios prefer more specialization then generalization.

[castem]

I second the idea of Ash replacing Loki as a starter frame.  Ash is the most ninja-like warframe, isn't it?  And Warframe advertises ninjas...

 

In addition, Rhino is in too weird of a spot to be a starter.  Rhino is locked behind mastery (so not for beginners) and you can get its parts from the Jackal (so newer players can acquire him fairly early, at least compared to some other frames).

 

...if not Ash, then how about Frost?  It'll make defense missions more bearable early on (and make the game much less frustrating for newer players trying to solo Earth), his frost powers would be useful at lower levels, and it'd give players a defensive frame that doesn't basically give them god-mode at low levels.

 

Frost is slow, too, but I believe he fits the archetype the OP is looking for.  (I'm in agreement with the OP.  I would've loved to been able to choose a frame that fits the 'tank' archetype at the beginning, rather than the current 3 choices.  Balanced/Tank/Caster sounds good to me.)

[ChaoticVice777]

I second the idea of Ash replacing Loki as a starter frame.  Ash is the most ninja-like warframe, isn't it?  And Warframe advertises ninjas...

 

In addition, Rhino is in too weird of a spot to be a starter.  Rhino is locked behind mastery (so not for beginners) and you can get its parts from the Jackal (so newer players can acquire him fairly early, at least compared to some other frames).

 

...if not Ash, then how about Frost?  It'll make defense missions more bearable early on (and make the game much less frustrating for newer players trying to solo Earth), his frost powers would be useful at lower levels, and it'd give players a defensive frame that doesn't basically give them god-mode at low levels.

 

Frost is slow, too, but I believe he fits the archetype the OP is looking for.  (I'm in agreement with the OP.  I would've loved to been able to choose a frame that fits the 'tank' archetype at the beginning, rather than the current 3 choices.  Balanced/Tank/Caster sounds good to me.)

 

Ash seems to be the consensus, although he's going to be hard-pressed to help the team.

 

Frost shouldn't even be considered, as he's too powerful at the early levels and "degrades" to being essential at the later levels. Never forget, as long as Frost remains in his Snow Globe, he's practically invincible.