Okay. There needs to be alternatives to multishot. Seriously, once more with feeling.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Not only have these become mandatory mods on literally every weapon, they have seriously impacted DE's ability to balance the game. Because now literally everything has to have multishot built into the math of how much damage things can take. 

I don't know if having primed amalgam mods like primed fasthands/speed trigger or something but there needs to be a viable alternative to a system that involves multiple projectiles fired after every trigger pull.

Some of your frames have skills that are specifically damaged by this such as Ivara and Mesa because their skills involve maxemizing damage on a single bullet which leaves you with a weapon that is otherwise useless to you. 

There needs to gain the same damage benefits of multishot on a single projectile. I have built weapons in every way i can imagine to try to override this. I have never managed to build a weapon that does equal damage to a weapon built with multishot, which ultimately has negative impacts on the game. 

[Annnoth]

Im still waiting for split flights to finaly rear its head. Its got upsides, its got downsides, it wont be used on everything, it might have great effect on specific things. 

Mods like that are the kind of thing i wish we had more of. 

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

4 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Im still waiting for split flights to finaly rear its head. Its got upsides, its got downsides, it wont be used on everything, it might have great effect on specific things. 

Mods like that are the kind of thing i wish we had more of. 

I just got the kuva "No seriously, screw you and screw your whole crew and please don't keep in touch" bow. I do not think that split flights is coming. Because jee. zus. 

I haven't even leveled the thing yet and it's ridiculous...

I would rather an option be available for people who prefer quality over quantity but right now there is literally nothing that rewards a single projectile being used...

ETA. Non umbra mirage. Bram completely unleveled with just serration, vig arma, split chamber, high volt and malignant force. Activate hall of mirrors, activate eclipse. Spawn 8 150 heavy gunners. Fire two arrows, walk away.

Edited February 5, 2020 by (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx

[Avienas]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Not only have these become mandatory mods on literally every weapon, they have seriously impacted DE's ability to balance the game. Because now literally everything has to have multishot built into the math of how much damage things can take. 

Its simple, they need to redesign the modding bench, take a bunch of mods and put the stats built in via this way, up some weapon status chances alongside base damage and remove those mods. Straight up universal damage `auto pick mods` like serration and multi shot mods like split chamber easily fit this bill.

Sure some might complain it might make a mess of weapons that rely on multi shot proc, but they could easily adjust those numbers or put in a new damn system to replace status chance, aka how someone suggested: Status intensity.

Basically how i would see it that status chance is 100% proc but they would work on build up mechanics, where tougher enemies may require a bit more dealt to them for the status procs to trigger, but guns that are more about bigger raw damage like shotguns, sniper rifles, bows, railguns, etc. would have vastly higher status `intensity` by default, which would get further stacked where weapons that had high status chance would get that stacked on top of the intensity based on the weapon type.

Oh plus maybe if they do have that approach, have TWO factors that can up status intensity further, More SPECIFIC elemental damage (aka cold & heat would have different intensity values that both get raised by the new version of `status chance` but separately get boosted by thar own elemental damage and not vice versa) and mods that directly boost it (basically how the gold mods would work that currently act as the 60/60 for elemental damage & status chance), pretty much could make a nice new system design where all elemental types could have a `trauma` bonus once the threshold is breached plus a stacking type effect on top of that.

 

Though lets be honest, it would be nice if they downgrade how the elemental system works, get rid of dual elementals, buff the single elementals and its more about either prioritizing 1 elemental for maximum impact on one specific health type or using 2 so your weapon can cover 2 roles like heat to strip armor and toxin to poison the flesh of the squishie grineer inside after thar armor has been torn apart from the flames. D.E. needs to do SOME approach on tuning the mod bench, since simplifying things can make it easier for newer players to get into the game and make end-gamers have alot less of a hassle trying to optimize builds when so much b.s. is present where i got to change my loadouts almost every mission whenever i want to do something as simple as going from fighting kuva liches to then farm fissures for ducats.

Quote

I don't know if having primed amalgam mods like primed fasthands/speed trigger or something but there needs to be a viable alternative to a system that involves multiple projectiles fired after every trigger pull.

Some of your frames have skills that are specifically damaged by this such as Ivara and Mesa because their skills involve maxemizing damage on a single bullet which leaves you with a weapon that is otherwise useless to you. 

There needs to gain the same damage benefits of multishot on a single projectile. I have built weapons in every way i can imagine to try to override this. I have never managed to build a weapon that does equal damage to a weapon built with multishot, which ultimately has negative impacts on the game. 

Thats the issue, multi shot is a chance to throw out an extra bullet, which kind of means once you have 100% multishot, your weapon is guranteed to shoot out double the damage it normally does. Outside of using weapons specifically for sniping hitboxes like eidolon limbs, there is literally no reason NOT to use multi-shot cause its too much of a trope meta mod to constantly use just like always using 2 elemental mods for your build, even if it has no status chance at all, because elemental damage BONUS still is a fking thing.

Which honestly if they had to redesign the system, it would be nice if status chance was more of an innate thing and again, they have something else entirely (aka why i keep saying Intensity aka trauma type debuff systems to address it a bit), its honestly just an issue of too many systems and not enough mod space to properly setup because so many mods are auto lock on the builds these days with only 1, maybe 2 if your lucky, on empty slots to work with.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Avienas

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Fun fact. Multishot was originally supposed to use ammo upon shooting that extra bullet but it was a bug that was never fixed. Maybe the devs can put that back in to balance it if you guys are just going to complain about little things like this.

[Spawnbold]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Shodian:

Fun fact. Multishot was originally supposed to use ammo upon shooting that extra bullet but it was a bug that was never fixed. Maybe the devs can put that back in to balance it if you guys are just going to complain about little things like this.

Can you image the flaming forums if such thing got implemented 😆

[Avienas]

40 minutes ago, Spawnbold said:

Can you image the flaming forums if such thing got implemented 😆

Exactly.

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Fun fact. Multishot was originally supposed to use ammo upon shooting that extra bullet but it was a bug that was never fixed. Maybe the devs can put that back in to balance it if you guys are just going to complain about little things like this.

Most games do not even use a multi-shot system to begin with anyway. The closest i recall being stuff like borderlands, where BL3 had plenty of guns, namely the jakob`s one, which would have common traits like ricocheting bulelts & throwing ammo straight into the clip as you did critical hits. Combined with certain characters like FL4K, you could have a setup where you were spam shooting criticals for short periods and dumping a bunch of ricocheting shots everywhere, with guns like the Queen/King`s call just dumping extra shots into enemies and adding more ammo in the clip for extra firing.

Even if they redesigned multi-shot to instead refund ammo straight to the clip, it likely would not matter due to how warframe is currently designed where only warframes with particular abilities that boost things like reload speed, would likely get the benefit since too many mods take up space and putting in mods like reload, magazine capacity and heck even sometimes fire rate & recoil reduction would be often ignored.

This is why i will just simply keep repeating it in as many forms on how D.E. could fix it: Redesign the mod bench to reduce the number of mods used on the bench by just making them innate or simplifying damage system, while compensating with just innate stats as the trade off. 

 

HONESTLY again, i would even go as far to say D.E. might as well get rid of any general (and technically physical/elemental) damage value mods in the mod bench itself, have it entirely on mods like reload fire rate, accuracy, mag capacity, status chance, critical chance/damage, recoil, flight speed, etc. etc. etc. Honestly you should get the idea, it would be mods that modify the behavior of the gun more then just straight up buffing the damage, with probably elemental mods could just be add-on elements or just create a new mod bench where we can slot up to 2 or 3 `element install mods` so we can either stack 3 elements of the same time to boost that elemental alot, go 1 and 2 same for a chunky dual elemental or go 3 single elementals for a dual elemental alongside a single elemental. Which would be like exilus mods but not affect capacity, sort of like how arcanes work.

Since the less the mod bench straight up boosts damage, the more i would hope more customization can be put into place. Granted critical, status chance and multi shot mods would affect DPS sort of things, but this is pretty much me dredging up another way they could work towards making these fiasco threads stop happening, like build setups can be more about experimenting what YOU want to enjoy, like how melee weapons are more preference these days, with range being such a minor factor now, to decide what weapon people should use over others.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Avienas

[Steel_Rook]

Honestly, I never understood why Multishot exists in the first place. It's such a bizarre concept that I can't really recall any other game doing that off the top of my head. It's also functionally indistinguishable from a damage/status buff. Yes, it works on a different formula, but Warframe has so many multiplicative sources of damage that it hardly matters. In practice, it hardly matters still because I rarely perceive my weapon firing multiple "pellets" anyway. And yes, multishot is a great source of extra status, but that's only because Warframe's status system is ass backwards and fails to scale with weapon damage or other stats. The per-pellet status chance back-calculation for weapons with native multishot is particularly egregious because it's radical and MASSIVELY back-loaded.

Far as I'm concerned, DE ought to get rid of Multishot entirely and redesign the Status system from the ground up. Drop Status Chance entirely (all shots always deal Status Effects), replace it with Status Magnitude, then tie the magnitude of every status effect to that value. More Status Magnitude means more armour stripped, a larger percentage of damage done as a Status damage proc, longer slow time, etc. Finally, split status magnitude between all pellets of weapons with native multishot proportionally, the same way damage is split. You shoot 5 pellets? Each pellet deals 1/5 the damage and hits with 1/5th the Status Magnitude, but all the Status procs stack.

This makes status scaling less aberrant, it avoids turning all weapons into de-facto shotguns AND it takes a "mandatory" mod out of circulation. Would probably require significant rebalance of weapons, though.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

8 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Honestly, I never understood why Multishot exists in the first place. It's such a bizarre concept that I can't really recall any other game doing that off the top of my head. It's also functionally indistinguishable from a damage/status buff. Yes, it works on a different formula, but Warframe has so many multiplicative sources of damage that it hardly matters. In practice, it hardly matters still because I rarely perceive my weapon firing multiple "pellets" anyway. And yes, multishot is a great source of extra status, but that's only because Warframe's status system is ass backwards and fails to scale with weapon damage or other stats. The per-pellet status chance back-calculation for weapons with native multishot is particularly egregious because it's radical and MASSIVELY back-loaded.

Far as I'm concerned, DE ought to get rid of Multishot entirely and redesign the Status system from the ground up. Drop Status Chance entirely (all shots always deal Status Effects), replace it with Status Magnitude, then tie the magnitude of every status effect to that value. More Status Magnitude means more armour stripped, a larger percentage of damage done as a Status damage proc, longer slow time, etc. Finally, split status magnitude between all pellets of weapons with native multishot proportionally, the same way damage is split. You shoot 5 pellets? Each pellet deals 1/5 the damage and hits with 1/5th the Status Magnitude, but all the Status procs stack.

This makes status scaling less aberrant, it avoids turning all weapons into de-facto shotguns AND it takes a "mandatory" mod out of circulation. Would probably require significant rebalance of weapons, though.

I made a post a while ago that was de needs to limit multishot to where it makes sense, ie shotguns and other pellet firing weapons, and buff rifles to do a reasonable amount of damage without multishot being part of the math, because they can't balance the game in it's current condition.

It was not a popular post.