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Enemy Mechanics Rework


weeaboopotato
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Have you ever just walk in a mission and just suddenly die because an enemy stray bullet from a far hit you. Have you ever wondered why low levelled enemies even try and end up killing themselves instead. Well don't I have an answer for you, introducing my enemy rework.

[Part 1] :Level Locked Mechanics

Enemies should have mechanics and dumber AI in lower levels and have more mechanics you should deal with and smarter AI in higher levels. Effectively making the game harder in higher levels and even easier in Lower levels. For example:

In lower levels: Enemies around level 1-15 would have even worst aim and wouldn't know how to sound an alarm. Additionally some units like Grineer Captains, Bomboards, Ballista's and Scorches. Essentially giving even more reason for people to stay in endurance missions like survival, Defence and etc. Since some resources and loot are restricted to enemy units. 

In mid level missions: They should be like regular old enemies which would be around the levels of 20-50.

In higher level missions: Which is probably around level 70-200 they should be able to detect you much more faster with the slightest hint of noise and even use more mechanics like shooting nearby explosive barrels near you or using smoke grenades to retreat. Maybe even once the alarms are on for a certain period of times you can find a group of enemies awaiting at you by a door to focus fire you down. Maybe a high level sentient unit can also probably have a flashbang mechanic in a sort but more telegraphed which would give you time to move away. 

The aim scaling however needs to be capped in order to stop every weapon to become a hitscan weapon and the extra mechanics that are added would need to be capped since its impossible to make extra mechanics for every level.

1.1:AI locked Enemy Units

Trash mobs need to be dumb down and have the scaling AI be lowered for them. They're trash units, enemy fodder, they shouldn't be able to one shot you out of nowhere. In lower levels they aren't much of a problem but in higher levels they become almost as impossible to deal with as elite units becoming a secondary slightly weaker ones as the level scales. The least we can do is make them even dumber so they won't be that much of a problem.

1.2: Higher TTK for Trash Mobs in Higher LvLs

Significantly lower the armor of trash mobs and hard cap the armor scaling in lower levels. Killing trash mobs aren't much of a problem in the lower levelled missions; However after certain levels they start to become secondary elite units that are slightly weaker, and they're scaling damage don't make it any better. Why only trash mobs you say? Because they're trash mobs, they're supposed to be easy to sweep. Elite units like gunners and bomboards need to be tanky. This would not only improve gunplay but also make bomboards and gunners seem even more powerful and even more of a threat to the player. 

[Part 2]: Enemy Projectile Changes

Don't you just hate when you get one shoted out of nowhere by a stray bullet after dodging all those other things perfectly? This is a game where our mobility is core to our gameplay but whats the point of the mobility and being a space ninja if you can even use it in combat. Most enemy projectiles are very unpredictable and at times literally hitscan. The projectiles of enemies need to be slowed down and make things more telegraphed. While also making them hit even harder. That way its not the trash AI and broken damage scaling being the reason why you died, but yourself. This would make the gameplay more rewarding and give more incentive to dodging. While also punishing bad players and giving them an actual reason to get better and stronger.

PS: If you ask "but what about the gunner and laser units of corpus" Just lower their turn speed and they'll dodgeable just be side stepping.

[Part 3]: Damage Type Shields For Aura Units

A new mechanic which of course will be level locked where some enemies would gain a shield that is resistant to anything else but the damage type its coralating to; That once broken it will cancel they're aura out like toxin auras, ice auras, energy sapping auras and the likes of such until they regenerate the shield which can take 10-12s probably

For Example: Enemies with green shields would naturally correlate to Toxin, Enemies with orange shields correlate to heat, enemies with navy blue shields are energy eximus units that correlate to ability damage and etc. Maybe even Sentients could have void shields which takes even more damage by your operators like eidolons except can be optionally broken with your weapons instead.

These shields would significantly be resistant to other types of damage other than the damage type it correlates to but in return take significantly more damage to the damage type its matched with. Additionally breaking the shield would stagger nearby enemies. This would definitely shake the meta and would make every damage type viable.

[Optional Additions]

New enemy types by @Loza03

 

Edited by weeaboopotato
Reworking the thread
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46 minutes ago, keikogi said:

A.I is not the problem at all. Enemy desing is. Seriously put yourself on the shoes of grineer lancer against a limbo spanning cataclysmic and stasis , there is literally no winning move you can take.

That sounds more like the design of the Limbo is the problem, quite frankly.

I mean, like you say, there is no winning move, unless you have a 'this doesn't work on me' card.

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

That sounds more like the design of the Limbo is the problem, quite frankly.

I mean, like you say, there is no winning move, unless you have a 'this doesn't work on me' card.

Vauban can easily block every single entrance to a room with Bastille , what the AI is going to do? Wait Vauban running out of energy , but thats a eternal wait because zenurik and restores can keep him running for hours. Or what dodging the day equinox 4 that ignores line of sight, is the AI just stand 35 meters away. Warframe abilities were not designed with any form of counter play in mind so being smarter does not necessarly help you. Most enemies don't live more than 5 seconds after being spotted , if they were smarter you would not even notice.

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21 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Vauban can easily block every single entrance to a room with Bastille , what the AI is going to do? Wait Vauban running out of energy , but thats a eternal wait because zenurik and restores can keep him running for hours. Or what dodging the day equinox 4 that ignores line of sight, is the AI just stand 35 meters away. Warframe abilities were not designed with any form of counter play in mind so being smarter does not necessarly help you. Most enemies don't live more than 5 seconds after being spotted , if they were smarter you would not even notice.

There are multiple enemy types already immune to CC. However as I've said before in my post they can add more mechanics to higher levelled enemies. Low level enemies shouldn't be able to know what to do and since they're going to die anyways we should make them use less mechanics. Higher levelled enemies could use their stuff more strategically like shooting containers when you're near them or if grineer probably use smoke grenades. Enemies when an alarm comes would try group up by a door and position themselves to start firing once open, along the lines of something like that. Although with the situation you've given like a Vauban blocking all entrances other enemies would try to well normally kill you or nullify it. Who knows since there are doorways in grineer tilesets they can probably make a balistic unit hold a gun that utilizes that as a round which will proc magnetic. There are many possibilities.

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1 hour ago, weeaboopotato said:

strategically like shooting containers

The explosive barrels deal less damage than a hind shot at high lvls. Amusing but ultimately useless. The cryo barrels on the corpus tile set would be usefull tought.

1 hour ago, weeaboopotato said:

or if grineer probably use smoke grenades

Using smoke granades is a change to enemy desing not AI.

1 hour ago, weeaboopotato said:

Enemies when an alarm comes would try group up by a door and position themselves to start firing once open,

Any smart enemy would not group up by the door the would group up somewhere they have a line of fire to the door but someone passing trough it has not. If they are any good at it the game pace slows down to much. 

1 hour ago, weeaboopotato said:

Although with the situation you've given like a Vauban blocking all entrances other enemies would try to well normally kill you or nullify it. Who knows since there are doorways in grineer tilesets they can probably make a balistic unit hold a gun that utilizes that as a round which will proc magnetic. There are many possibilities.

Once again this is a change to enemy desing. 

Warframe has core desing issues on energy and damage. Damage is such a rampant problem that enemies with damage scaling protection are thing ( condrix and Grineer rail jack enemies literally can say to the game it's not fair the warframe is doing to much damage ). Abilities without any real cost or counter play are the rule for warframe so there not much enemies can't about them unless god gave them the " that not work on me card ". I don't know why people cling so hard to enemies are dumb that's why they can't win instead of the fairly obvious I literally have 4 layers of imortality ( 6 with arcanes ) and gamebreaking abities without any real cost or trade back that's why enemies can't win.

Edited by keikogi
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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That sounds more like the design of the Limbo is the problem, quite frankly.

I mean, like you say, there is no winning move, unless you have a 'this doesn't work on me' card.

You people won't be happy until Limbo is deleted from the game. Limbo is not anymore powerful than any other frame and his usefulness when not solo is entirely situational.

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17 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

You people won't be happy until Limbo is deleted from the game. Limbo is not anymore powerful than any other frame and his usefulness when not solo is entirely situational.

I main Limbo.

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9 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

So you say... Will Ferrell Reaction GIF

 

Spoiler

yEcWCgy.jpg2hvMupO.jpg

So, trust me when I say, Limbo's design is sincerely flawed.

 

(For interests sake, I prefer him when he's jumping in and out of the rift and generally being active, as opposed to the markedly more passive 'sit in bubble and shoot mannequins occasionally')

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30 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

yEcWCgy.jpg2hvMupO.jpg

So, trust me when I say, Limbo's design is sincerely flawed.

 

(For interests sake, I prefer him when he's jumping in and out of the rift and generally being active, as opposed to the markedly more passive 'sit in bubble and shoot mannequins occasionally')

Yes I prefer playing like that as well, and generally do. But it makes people angry when they get thrown into the rift in the process. 

 

I was working on a solo build that worked like that but then I realized I hate soloing.

 

Since you have proven you play Limbo: what would you like to see in changes? Everyone elses' changes are just "delete limbo" and I haven't heard much from people actively playing him.

Edited by SpicyDinosaur
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11 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Yes I prefer playing like that as well, and generally do. But it makes people angry when they get thrown into the rift in the process. 

 

I was working on a solo build that worked like that but then I realized I hate soloing.

 

Since you have proven you play Limbo: what would you like to see in changes? Everyone elses' changes are just "delete limbo" and I haven't heard much from people actively playing him.

1: Give other players some means to enter the rift that in no way relies on Limbo's direct action. Perhaps not as freely as Limbo himself, but something like being able to roll into the rift when near rifted enemies.

2: Give Limbo his old banish (flat swap the plane of a single enemy regardless of your plane) as a charge/held version of his current 1. Perhaps at a small extra energy cost and greater range. You can pull one single enemy into the rift safely if you just need one guy, but if you want a lot of them, such as for energy, you'll have to risk getting shot.

3: His 2 is now its own bubble, 1/3rd of the size of a cataclysm (conveniently, the size of a cataclysm just before it pops). It destroys non-hitscan projectiles on contact and otherwise behaves identically, to keep Limbo capable as a defense frame, but it no longer auto-wins the process as enemies can actually damage the point. Combined with cataclysm, this reduces the area where enemies can effectively damage the objective to an ever-shrinking no-mans-land between the border of Catacylsm and the border of Stasis. Alternatively, it can still be popped on bosses to disable their projectiles. Basically, keeping most if not all of its utility, but limiting the range of its effects to be more in line with other powers, since Limbo is really good at getting enemies in the rift already, so the rift itself is not much of a drawback.

4: Total 3 overhaul to a wheel ability, to give Limbo more abilities to mess with the rift as well as put enemies in it (I've always felt his 'master of the rift' moniker is a little toothless since all he does is stop time). His current 3 is still here, combined with a nerfed version of the augment for added oomph. For the other abilities, throw in a defensive power (perhaps proximity based damage resistance/evasion?) that lingers momentarily when he comes out of the rift, a teleport for mobility and additional CC to supplement his now-nerfed two. The main drawback being that you can't use them at the same time (i.e. the effects dissipate when you switch to a different ability), but they're fairly strong. They either can only be used in the rift or rely on it (for example, his teleport always putting him in the rift on arrival or the CC only working on riftbound enemies).

His four wouldn't need any changes, I don't think, since its problems mostly derive either from the rift being ally-unfriendly or stasis itself.

 

In so many words - nerf his ability to just functionally delete defence missions and buff more engaging playstyles suchas re-enabling the OG 'pick class' Limbo who ran around picking out threats to kill.

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On 2020-04-30 at 5:14 AM, Loza03 said:

1: Give other players some means to enter the rift that in no way relies on Limbo's direct action. Perhaps not as freely as Limbo himself, but something like being able to roll into the rift when near rifted enemies.

2: Give Limbo his old banish (flat swap the plane of a single enemy regardless of your plane) as a charge/held version of his current 1. Perhaps at a small extra energy cost and greater range. You can pull one single enemy into the rift safely if you just need one guy, but if you want a lot of them, such as for energy, you'll have to risk getting shot.

3: His 2 is now its own bubble, 1/3rd of the size of a cataclysm (conveniently, the size of a cataclysm just before it pops). It destroys non-hitscan projectiles on contact and otherwise behaves identically, to keep Limbo capable as a defense frame, but it no longer auto-wins the process as enemies can actually damage the point. Combined with cataclysm, this reduces the area where enemies can effectively damage the objective to an ever-shrinking no-mans-land between the border of Catacylsm and the border of Stasis. Alternatively, it can still be popped on bosses to disable their projectiles. Basically, keeping most if not all of its utility, but limiting the range of its effects to be more in line with other powers, since Limbo is really good at getting enemies in the rift already, so the rift itself is not much of a drawback.

4: Total 3 overhaul to a wheel ability, to give Limbo more abilities to mess with the rift as well as put enemies in it (I've always felt his 'master of the rift' moniker is a little toothless since all he does is stop time). His current 3 is still here, combined with a nerfed version of the augment for added oomph. For the other abilities, throw in a defensive power (perhaps proximity based damage resistance/evasion?) that lingers momentarily when he comes out of the rift, a teleport for mobility and additional CC to supplement his now-nerfed two. The main drawback being that you can't use them at the same time (i.e. the effects dissipate when you switch to a different ability), but they're fairly strong. They either can only be used in the rift or rely on it (for example, his teleport always putting him in the rift on arrival or the CC only working on riftbound enemies).

His four wouldn't need any changes, I don't think, since its problems mostly derive either from the rift being ally-unfriendly or stasis itself.

 

In so many words - nerf his ability to just functionally delete defence missions and buff more engaging playstyles suchas re-enabling the OG 'pick class' Limbo who ran around picking out threats to kit

I agree that he should have his 1 changed to be single targeted but the 2 change is questionable cause with how you worded it, he no longer just stops things in the rift but rather its his own ability which Is possibly the worst possible change ive ever heard you can give to limbo. Also his 3 is essential when fighting nullifiers, the only thing I wished they did do to it was kept the 60% damage increase to enemies affected like old Limbo rather than having to equip the bandaid fix augment. He also already has a reason for allies to enter the rift which is energy regent and giving 10 energy per enemy they kill in the rift. Limbo's only problem is he can disrupt gameplay, but when suggesting changes you should also know how he can disrupt gameplay. Also old Limbo was terrible and had the exact same problems but even worst. You couldn't exit the rift if a limbo banished you until they recasted it or the ability runs out. Most of the changes you've suggested would just dirty his entire theme and gameplay besides the 1 change.

Edited by weeaboopotato
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On 2020-04-30 at 1:34 AM, keikogi said:

The explosive barrels deal less damage than a hind shot at high lvls. Amusing but ultimately useless. The cryo barrels on the corpus tile set would be usefull tought.

Using smoke granades is a change to enemy desing not AI.

Any smart enemy would not group up by the door the would group up somewhere they have a line of fire to the door but someone passing trough it has not. If they are any good at it the game pace slows down to much. 

Once again this is a change to enemy desing. 

Warframe has core desing issues on energy and damage. Damage is such a rampant problem that enemies with damage scaling protection are thing ( condrix and Grineer rail jack enemies literally can say to the game it's not fair the warframe is doing to much damage ). Abilities without any real cost or counter play are the rule for warframe so there not much enemies can't about them unless god gave them the " that not work on me card ". I don't know why people cling so hard to enemies are dumb that's why they can't win instead of the fairly obvious I literally have 4 layers of imortality ( 6 with arcanes ) and gamebreaking abities without any real cost or trade back that's why enemies can't win.

Maybe I should just rename this to Level locked mechanics

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6 hours ago, weeaboopotato said:

the 2 change is questionable cause with how you worded it, he no longer just stops things in the rift but rather its his own ability which Is possibly the worst possible change ive ever heard you can give to limbo.

That is precisely what I want. It to no longer just stop everything in the rift. As it is now is a problem, because it's overpowered. Why is it a problem? Well, like someone else said - enemies have no winning moves against his 2 and 4 except to arbitrarily not play by that ability. What AI do you suggest works against Limbo's current stasis?

The ability is the problem, not the enemy AI. There's no way around it, no way to make that better. As long as Limbo's Stasis/Cataclysm spam exists in its current form, alongside the wealth of similar abilities like Nukes and Invisibility - any ability that can, with no limit other than energy, allow players to entirely circumvent or disable whole systems and mechanics will make it so that both enemy and mission design that isn't cheap and relies on pure numeric scaling.

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8 hours ago, weeaboopotato said:

Maybe I should just rename this to Level locked mechanics

That would be a more accurate title. The ideas you brought up as example are good for example if the grineer could deploy smoke bombs that prevent auto targeting ( single targets skills snaping into the target ) they could survive just a bit better, for example against peace makers. 

I wish faction swapped unit variants the longer you go and the new units had new mechanics and few behavior changes. It already happens but it does not really happen ( there ks the change from lancer to eleite Lancer but no one notices the diference )

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Frankly, the Tenno are the most powerful things in the system (not counting entities with unproven/unknown power, such as the Sentient Mother and Wallace). Warframe as a game isn't supposed to be too challenging. It has enemies such as Bombards, Ancients, and Nullifiers to keep you on your toes, but it isn't outright "difficult" in most scenarios, nor is it really supposed to be.

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23 hours ago, GladiatorDragon said:

Frankly, the Tenno are the most powerful things in the system (not counting entities with unproven/unknown power, such as the Sentient Mother and Wallace). Warframe as a game isn't supposed to be too challenging. It has enemies such as Bombards, Ancients, and Nullifiers to keep you on your toes, but it isn't outright "difficult" in most scenarios, nor is it really supposed to be.

Reworked the thread

and we need harder content, Harder content can potentially be viable for replayable content like ESO. Nullifiers aren't that difficult to deal with, Bomboards are honestly one of the fairest enemies to fight against since they're attacks are dodgeable if only more noticeable, Ancients are annoying as #*!% with their pulls. This game is going to die without harder content, we had raids but those were removed. The hardcore audience are the only audience that will stay with the game and keep this game alive. Gameplay will get stale without harder difficulty and its starting to already take effect as you can see with the community as of now.

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On 2020-05-01 at 9:09 PM, keikogi said:

That would be a more accurate title. The ideas you brought up as example are good for example if the grineer could deploy smoke bombs that prevent auto targeting ( single targets skills snaping into the target ) they could survive just a bit better, for example against peace makers. 

I wish faction swapped unit variants the longer you go and the new units had new mechanics and few behavior changes. It already happens but it does not really happen ( there ks the change from lancer to eleite Lancer but no one notices the diference )

Reworked the thread 

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On 2020-04-29 at 10:33 AM, weeaboopotato said:

Part 2]: Enemy Projectile Changes

Don't you just hate when you get one shoted out of nowhere by a stray bullet after dodging all those other things perfectly? This is a game where our mobility is core to our gameplay but whats the point of the mobility and being a space ninja if you can even use it in combat. Most enemy projectiles are very unpredictable and at times literally hitscan. The projectiles of enemies need to be slowed down and make things more telegraphed. While also making them hit even harder. That way its not

Probably the best change proposed here nothing else to say.

On 2020-04-29 at 10:33 AM, weeaboopotato said:

Part 3]: Damage Type Shields For Aura Units

A new mechanic which of course will be level locked where some enemies would gain a shield that is resistant to anything else but the damage type its coralating to; That once broken it will cancel they're aura out like toxin auras, ice auras, energy sapping auras and the likes of such until they regenerate the shield which can take 10-12s probably

The sugestion in itself is good but the game does not really helps it. It even exist to a minor extent on warframe right now in the form of prosecutors in Ceres.

There are 3 things going against this sugestion 

The main problem , armor doubles dip into its resistances because if you use the wrong damage type agaist armor first the damage type increases the armor them it reduces the damage. For example if your weapon deal 1000 eletric damage against a bombard with 1000 armor. First the unit would have it's armor increased to 1500 them your damage would be reduced to 500. After the damage calculation I think you would deal 90 damage. ( napkin math don't quote me on this ). Witch means a mechanic like this ask people to carry two dead weight weapons 

Second problem , terrible base line switch speed and host based weapon switch. The weapon switch feels bad on warframe and demanding it just make the mechamic annoying due to lack of smoothness

Third probelm warframe has to many damage types , I have the quite unpopular opinion that damage 2.0 was a mistake and did not fix the actual problem of armor and armor double dippimg. No wonder serraded blade was the king in damage , them slash procs became king ( both ignore armor ).

 

Edited by keikogi
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On 2020-04-29 at 8:40 AM, keikogi said:

A.I is not the problem at all. Enemy desing is. Seriously put yourself on the shoes of grineer lancer against a limbo spanning cataclysmic and stasis , there is literally no winning move you can take.

Tactically, yeah, there's nothing they can do. I mean, what's he going to do. Send an insult to the corpus with a "come and get me" set of coordinates and hope a Nullifier in opposition to him enguages the Limbo...wait, I'm not saying there need to be Grineer nullifiers or anything...

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1 minute ago, (PS4)LoneWolf_001 said:

Tactically, yeah, there's nothing they can do. I mean, what's he going to do. Send an insult to the corpus with a "come and get me" set of coordinates and hope a Nullifier in opposition to him enguages the Limbo...wait, I'm not saying there need to be Grineer nullifiers or anything...

I use that example because I want to show a lot of the time the enemies can´t really deal with the tenno the best this lancer can do is do physicological damage and call lim "tenno skoom ". 

Had a old desing for modular TUBEMEN units to adress the grineer inability to deal with skill the tl:DR is the roll in 3 tables 

The table that matters for this discussion , helmet table 

Medic Helmet , can dispel debuffs and gives debuff imunity agaist the debuffs purged. Has a charge up time and audible sond cue before it dispels stufff

Melee helmet , gives a jet pack to the unit and allows to purge buffs after 2 sucesifull melee hits 

Sniper helmet , can see invisible units and allows the user to thrown a ink greneda to reveal the spoted target.  But this helmet always emits a laser dot showing where the user is looking at 

These skill would allow the grineer top fight agaist the tenno bullshiet but they don´t feel obnoxious to fight agasit either.

There is also a genetic defect table and a weapon table but they are not relevant for this discussion 

 

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9 hours ago, keikogi said:

The main problem , armor doubles dip into its resistances because if you use the wrong damage type agaist armor first the damage type increases the armor them it reduces the damage

There's a simple fix to that that other games have done. Which is treating it as a separate health pool that isn't effected by stats. As in basic shields that the only thing that scales about it is maximum shield health while also being universal. Well not entirely universal since these shields would be preserved for elite units. Additionally if that doesn't satisfy you these options might.

[option 1]

Additionally just like how they do it in other games, keep some elements locked to a faction. That way it'll force people to not use just one weapon the entire game making players have even more diversed loadouts. For example Grineer can have toxin, Corrosive, Gas shields. Corpus can have Electricity, Magnetic, Cold, blast shields. Infested can have radiation, Viral, heat and the factions like orokin and sentients could be a hybrid of either. The ability and weapon only shields would be universal.

[Option 2]

Don't make the shields take too little damage from the wrong damage types. Making players who want to go slowly not have to always use weapons correlating to the shields and as you've said about the accidentally buffing that enemy be more of a tactical thing. However players who'd want to minmax would.

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9 hours ago, keikogi said:

Second problem , terrible base line switch speed and host based weapon switch. The weapon switch feels bad on warframe and demanding it just make the mechamic annoying due to lack of smoothness

that's more of a game issue but on the bright side it'll give more incentive for players to pick up the aura mod that allows you to increase holster speed. So yeah still mixing up the meta.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)LoneWolf_001 said:

Tactically, yeah, there's nothing they can do. I mean, what's he going to do. Send an insult to the corpus with a "come and get me" set of coordinates and hope a Nullifier in opposition to him enguages the Limbo...wait, I'm not saying there need to be Grineer nullifiers or anything...

In that case it just means enemies would also try the lure and bait tactic being added to their AI. For example suddenly even if alarms are high up, there won't be that much enemies around. You'll think its a bug until an enemy shows up and you try to kill it. For some reason it doesn't shoot back and it dodges a lot being really mobile and its running to a specific direction. The moment you reach that direction a barrage of enemies would be awaiting you by a door and barrage you with bullets. Ofc that would be locked to high level missions tho.

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