Suggestions for fixing Limbo's issues, plus a rework idea.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Even if an unknowing limbo followed you to a spy vault and put a dome over your spy console, you can still hack it with your operator. 

 

Ignoring the fact that not all players have an operator, it's still a QoL change no matter how you look at it.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

other defense frames are used by a wider margin and can still create the same issues the OP wants to get rid of, like khoras dome pulling enemies through the other side of the wall and pulling them into tight corners that are hard to get to (the kuva fortress tileset can demonstrate this). 

Except that Limbo has the highest base range for trapping enemies at 15m (18.5 if you combo with Rift Surge), and Cataclysm is neither destructible nor limited by max targets spread around its radius. So no, other frames cannot create the same issues.

Still, the other main reason for my rework proposal remains that Stasis is too strong. Player knowledge doesn't fix that - it only makes it worse.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Ignoring the fact that not all players have an operator, it's still a QoL change no matter how you look at it.

Except that Limbo has the highest base range for trapping enemies at 15m (18.5 if you combo with Rift Surge), and Cataclysm is neither destructible nor limited by max targets spread around its radius. So no, other frames cannot create the same issues.

Still, the other main reason for my rework proposal remains that Stasis is too strong. Player knowledge doesn't fix that - it only makes it worse.

You would have a point if people were encountering troll limbos modded for range on a regular basis. But we're not.

15 and 18 meters isn't far in a game with great mobility......you know you're supposed to actually move your character, right? You can even use your minimap radar to locate those red triangles. 

I can make my Garas Vitrification go up to like 50 meters and control where it stops within those 50 meters. That can prevent enemies from completely entering the room if I choose. If you're not aware, Garas 4 also goes through terrain and walls so that also has potential to trap enemies and troll people.

I can increase the range of khoras dome to make the grab range (not the dome range) 28 meters.....that means my strangledome could grab handfuls of enemies through walls and trap them there, preventing them from even entering a room. If you're not aware, I can place 2 strangledomes. That also has the potential to troll people, as I can place a dome far away from the group to simply trap enemies as they spawn in. 

Nova with 145 strength and 250+ duration can also slow enemies up to 70+ meters away.....you could troll multiple ways with that as well.

So yes, other frames can and do create the same issues. It actually happens more than you think, where slow novas join a defense on accident and make the round last 10 to 15 minutes. 

Luckily you can rely on the ability for humans to learn things as thousands of people have managed these defense frames just fine. The occasional troll may slip through, but it's such a rare occurrence they all do not require reworks because of it.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

@(PS4)Madurai-Prime, you mention that 15-18 meters isn't far, only to make that 50 meters in the next paragraph. That's a bit further - in fact, outside the range of Primed Animal Instinct's radar. And, as I said, 

3 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Cataclysm is neither destructible nor limited by max targets spread around its radius. So no, other frames cannot create the same issues.

You can add to that that unlike Nova's slow, Stasis completely stops enemy movement, and that the plane difference between ally and enemy prevents them from being damaged by the vast majority of weapons.

4 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Still, the other main reason for my rework proposal remains that Stasis is too strong. Player knowledge doesn't fix that - it only makes it worse.

Unfortunately, this is a sufficient justification for a rework. See DE's reasons for changing Defy, as stated on Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

27 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

@(PS4)Madurai-Prime, you mention that 15-18 meters isn't far, only to make that 50 meters in the next paragraph. That's a bit further - in fact, outside the range of Primed Animal Instinct's radar. And, as I said, 

You can add to that that unlike Nova's slow, Stasis completely stops enemy movement, and that the plane difference between ally and enemy prevents them from being damaged by the vast majority of weapons.

Unfortunately, this is a sufficient justification for a rework. See DE's reasons for changing Defy, as stated on Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong.

"Except that Limbo has the highest base range for trapping...."

You used base range as an example......I was providing some examples where other frames can and do affect your team, preventing enemies from accessing the group....since that was one of your arguments. As I said, you would have a better argument if you were referring to a Limbo modded for high range that is freezing enemies 60 meters away, but other frames can also accomplish this, and the amount of people specifically building for this just to troll people is rare. 18 meters is a quick bullet jump or void dash away. Not an issue whatsoever.

I didn't think I needed to explain that range mods exist. Range mods are used to alter the range of abilities. With increased range on a multitude of frames and abilities, they can all influence the battlefield in different ways. 

You state cataclysm isn't destructible, except where it is destructible.....by the limbo that casted it, by nullifiers, and by it's shrinking range as the duration wanes. You state it's not limited by a max amount of enemies, yet missions don't spawn enough enemies for this to even be an issue. If you're in a public match, at least one of those strangers will be killing enemies.....a common complaint by many players is actually the lack of enemies and low spawn rates. So what kind of situation are you referring to where a limbo is freezing 20+ enemies and preventing other players access to them?

"Nekros releases a psychic blast that causes up to 7 / 12 / 15 / 20 enemies within 5 / 10 / 12 / 15 meters to enter a state of panic for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds."

Oh wow, look at that....base 15 meters at level 30...and this ability causes 20 enemies to run away.....that kinda seems like a lot doesn't it? 

"Nyx causes enemies within 15 / 20 / 22 / 25 meters to perceive their allies..."

Whoa 25 base range....that's pretty wide huh? This ability can also keep enemies far away, and can be refreshed to keep them away. It's almost like this is a non issue and every frame is capable of affecting groups in one way or another. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

@(PS4)Madurai-Prime, you mention that 15-18 meters isn't far, only to make that 50 meters in the next paragraph. That's a bit further - in fact, outside the range of Primed Animal Instinct's radar. And, as I said, 

You can add to that that unlike Nova's slow, Stasis completely stops enemy movement, and that the plane difference between ally and enemy prevents them from being damaged by the vast majority of weapons.

Unfortunately, this is a sufficient justification for a rework. See DE's reasons for changing Defy, as stated on Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong.

 

"Reasons for changes: Previously, Defy’s invulnerability was not very interactive. This change features invulnerability while encouraging more tactical, active, and interesting gameplay techniques. As many of us used Defy to be immortal, it simply was too much of a set-it-and-forget it ability. Changing it to still offer invulnerability is important to us, and strengthening the rest of his Abilities makes up for the loss of complete god mode."

There's your keyword. 

The old defy was a channeled ability, correct? 

Channeled abilities are manipulated by duration and efficiency.....

For Limbo to create a "set it and forget it" build.....he needs duration....as his abilities work on a timer....and are not channeled.....

This means for high duration, you have to lower your range via Narrow Minded....

You can not build a high range, high duration limbo to set it and forget it. You actually need to be active and mindful of your abilities the enemy and your timers. Wukong has higher base armor than Limbo as well, if you're not aware.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

Yes, I used base range as an example, because I was making a point that Limbo has the highest range for trapping enemies. That range obviously changes with mods, but given the same mods, Limbo's will always be the highest. And as you yourself put it:

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I didn't think I needed to explain that range mods exist.

Still, you forget that even when the enemies are only a quick bullet jump away, they might still be immune to player weapons due to being in another dimension. This is not something you "specifically build for just to troll people" - it's a natural by-product of someone playing Limbo.

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

You state cataclysm isn't destructible, except where it is destructible.....by the limbo that casted it, by nullifiers, and by it's shrinking range as the duration wanes.

I didn't think I needed to explain that "destructible" was means as in by enemy gunfire, as is the case with Snow Globe and Mass Vitrify. My bad, I should've been clearer. Nullifiers don't exist in all factions though, and the shrinking is countered by Rift Surge, which has a higher base range than Cataclysm. Rift Surge's base range is 25m, reaching 70m at max range - higher than that 50m range you mentioned for your Gara.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I can make my Garas Vitrification go up to like 50 meters and control where it stops within those 50 meters.

By the way, none of the ranges for Mass Vitrify reaches 50 meters. The max radius is only 30.08 meters for the created wall. So no, you can't.

53 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

"Nekros releases a psychic blast that causes up to 7 / 12 / 15 / 20 enemies within 5 / 10 / 12 / 15 meters to enter a state of panic for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds."

Oh wow, look at that....base 15 meters at level 30...and this ability causes 20 enemies to run away.....that kinda seems like a lot doesn't it? 

"Number of affected enemies and armor reduction are affected by Ability Strength." that is to say, sharply reduced by Overextended if you're looking to compete with Limbo's range capabilities. Suddenly, it doesn't seem like a lot anymore.

56 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

"Nyx causes enemies within 15 / 20 / 22 / 25 meters to perceive their allies..."

Whoa 25 base range....that's pretty wide huh? This ability can also keep enemies far away, and can be refreshed to keep them away.

Except Nyx doesn't freeze enemies in another dimension, making them invulnerable to all but a few exceptions of weapons. In fact, enemies under Chaos actively try to kill one another, and don't stand frozen in place when there's no one around.

58 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's almost like this is a non issue...

... for every other frame than Limbo, yes.

41 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

set-it-and-forget it ability ... There's your keyword. 

You missed a few keyword:

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

not very interactive ... As many of us used Defy to be immortal, it simply was too much of a set-it-and-forget-it ability. ... complete god mode

Sure, Stasis has a duration instead of being a channeled ability, meaning that it doesn't block various forms of energy regen, but the trade-off that it also provides said invulnerability to allies, making it better than the literal immortality ability. Oh, and inb4 "but Stasis has counters", Defy was countered by Energy Leeches, Nullifiers, and simply having the ability active for too long. Not to mention:

Quote

The fact that an ability has multiple hard counters against it doesn't mean that said ability is balanced. It highlights its brokenness.

(By the way, you can totally build high range and high duration on Limbo. You can have max range and over 200% duration without touching Narrow Minded.)

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

"Maximum horizontal radius is affected by both Ability Range and Ability Duration."

You sure about that? You're more than welcome to go get your Gara in game and test it out.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

Sorry, @(PS4)Madurai-Prime, but I feel that if I continue that train of discussion, it'll eventually derail the whole thread. So I'm just gonna not do that, and focus on discussing Limbo instead.