Wouldn't it make sense for tenet melee weapons to be tradable ?

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And that is a whole different issue. The main complaint regarding the system has still been on the keys, which are easy to get. I do care about the element, but I also dont have a massive urge for any of the weapons. So the wait isnt really an issue for me. It could obviously be done better, I just dont think opening up trading is the answer, since it doesnt solve the actual problem.

A shorter time between refreshes, maybe a way to pay to make him refresh the element but not the % value and so on.

 

I fail to see how its a "Whole different issue"

We are still talking about the ability to acquire weapons that you want after already having Grinded towards getting the resources for it, It is very similar to a reputation shop.

Making the refresh smaller , without allowing trading , would only make players more likely to miss the bonus and element they want and be back to alert mechanics (which DE replaced with NW),

If trading is allowed i atleast have a better chance to get what i want from other players unless you also propose that all players should be glued to the game 24x7,

I am open to alternatives to elevate this issue , but i am so far only seeing opposition without any actual solutions from you.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If I hadnt played WF prior to arbitrations it would be the same long grind to progress, it wouldnt mean that arbitrations are a slow grind though.

Sure, if you are MR0 (or 1, I don't remember) with basic weapons then yeah.

However given that you finished starchart (afair arbitrations requirements) you just need good gear. However you can get that gear in lots of places. RJ is content island - you can only do RJ to get RJ parts.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And yes, the good gear is avarage gear used between players.

Ok, but do you have any data?

I can assume that's not the truth because RJ requirements are low (previous quests just needs MR 4 & Neptune junction afair).

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

if players use basic or in between gear then they clearly arent ready to do the proper missions for the best efficiency. It is the same in the whole game. Being able to do "harder" content is obviously more rewarding and efficient.

But it doesn't mean that player cannot play it. I haven't cared about Mechs but I've grinded my way to get Lavos, some weapons, Simulacrum and probably something other.

Same with Holos. I grinded my way to be good enough. I am ok with "5 holokeys" planet, exterminate. I just wanted 1 weapon so I haven't bothered with RJ too much.

 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-10-22 at 2:53 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

I fail to see how its a "Whole different issue"

We are still talking about the ability to acquire weapons that you want after already having Grinded towards getting the resources for it, It is very similar to a reputation shop.

Making the refresh smaller , without allowing trading , would only make players more likely to miss the bonus and element they want and be back to alert mechanics (which DE replaced with NW),

If trading is allowed i atleast have a better chance to get what i want from other players unless you also propose that all players should be glued to the game 24x7,

I am open to alternatives to elevate this issue , but i am so far only seeing opposition without any actual solutions from you.

There difference in the issue is that the tokens are fast to get but the store is flawed. That means the core system is acceptable but the store in itself is flawed. Adding trade wouldnt fix that, since that would only fix it for those willing to trade. It would not fix the parts in the system that are flawed. It is like how the key drops from sisters is also a very flawed part of the system. Most players will likely never make use of any of the spare keys they get on sisters because it isnt an effective alternative to fully grind out weapons compared to storms, and all weapons cost an even amount of keys, so spares will probably just gather dust somewhere in the inventory.

And how would a shorter refresh risk people missing out more? Have it refresh with the sorties or login rewards, either works and gives people 24 hours to check. 

I also gave a very easy solution, allow us to trade keys to refresh the vendor. There everyone can grind at their own rate. Or are you for some reason opposed to grinding one currency in the game but not the other (keys vs plat)?

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure, if you are MR0 (or 1, I don't remember) with basic weapons then yeah.

However given that you finished starchart (afair arbitrations requirements) you just need good gear. However you can get that gear in lots of places. RJ is content island - you can only do RJ to get RJ parts.

Ok, but do you have any data?

I can assume that's not the truth because RJ requirements are low (previous quests just needs MR 4 & Neptune junction afair).

But it doesn't mean that player cannot play it. I haven't cared about Mechs but I've grinded my way to get Lavos, some weapons, Simulacrum and probably something other.

Same with Holos. I grinded my way to be good enough. I am ok with "5 holokeys" planet, exterminate. I just wanted 1 weapon so I haven't bothered with RJ too much.

 

The difference to be at the starting point with railjack is different how? It has been out long enough so people shouldnt really be at the starting point when new things are released. Just as you say we finish star chart for arbis, we've had more than enough time to clear all of the proximas before storms were introduced.

What data do you need exactly? Have you not seen how scarse the number of item/mod combinations are in RJ? There is no uber-gearing in RJ, the best gear is just the generic gear you get as you go.

Exactly, it doesnt mean they cannot play it, it means they cannot do it the most efficient way, so I really dont see how you think RJ should be different or what your point really is. You argued regarding my avarage, which is based on the avarage time it takes. I even specified that it was based on doing the right missions. And the avarage in Pluto Promixa doesnt change that much either, since the pre-objectives tend to be far far quicker compared to veil, aswell as letting you avoid other certain bumps in the road. One would probably think since the avarage in Veil is around 45 minutes per weapon, Pluto would be 90 minutes per weapon due to granting half the keys. That isnt the case since Pluto has far more short objective before the main one, and it doesnt have shielded Crewships nor does it lack Titanium as a consistant drop to fuel your forward arti. Not that you need it very often in Pluto because the most you need to kill are 2 crewships, mostly just 1, as opposed to Veil that most times require 3. 

[0_The_F00l]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There difference in the issue is that the tokens are fast to get but the store is flawed. That means the core system is acceptable but the store in itself is flawed. Adding trade wouldnt fix that, since that would only fix it for those willing to trade. It would not fix the parts in the system that are flawed. It is like how the key drops from sisters is also a very flawed part of the system. Most players will likely never make use of any of the spare keys they get on sisters because it isnt an effective alternative to fully grind out weapons compared to storms, and all weapons cost an even amount of keys, so spares will probably just gather dust somewhere in the inventory.

And how would a shorter refresh risk people missing out more? Have it refresh with the sorties or login rewards, either works and gives people 24 hours to check. 

I also gave a very easy solution, allow us to trade keys to refresh the vendor. There everyone can grind at their own rate. Or are you for some reason opposed to grinding one currency in the game but not the other (keys vs plat)?

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link , if one part of the system is flawed, the whole system will bear the burden of that flaw. So i disagree with your claim of it being "different" , currently holokeys are only usable for tennet weapons , they have no other purpose so it is not something that can be ignored as it is very much a core component until some changes are made.

i would also like to emphasize your comment for trading "that would only fix it for those willing to trade" , i dont get this , why wouldn't you want it fixed in part until it can be fixed in full?

I can tolerate the holokey acquisition itself (though i am not exactly loving it either). So your comments regarding the holokey farm and stockpiling are really not gonna change my opinion of this ; you may be overstating the frequency of players hunting sisters , in recent times (last few weeks) i have run the sister proxima node on public and have gotten a squad in 2 out of 5 runs (other 3 were solo) and it wasnt even a full squad in either instance.

A one day refresh is acceptable in my opinion , i thought you meant more along the lines of the bounty refreshes or day night cycles which could be easy to miss.

I must have missed your suggestion about the vendor refresh with holokeys , but really do you wanna go down the route of that slot machine? aren't riven rolls enough of a pain to deal with as it is?

But i still do not understand your opposition to make them tradable , it is the simplest option to implement, they have re classified weapons as tradable in hotfixes in the past so its not an overly complex proposal.

[SneakyErvin]

29 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link , if one part of the system is flawed, the whole system will bear the burden of that flaw. So i disagree with your claim of it being "different" , currently holokeys are only usable for tennet weapons , they have no other purpose so it is not something that can be ignored as it is very much a core component until some changes are made.

i would also like to emphasize your comment for trading "that would only fix it for those willing to trade" , i dont get this , why wouldn't you want it fixed in part until it can be fixed in full?

I can tolerate the holokey acquisition itself (though i am not exactly loving it either). So your comments regarding the holokey farm and stockpiling are really not gonna change my opinion of this ; you may be overstating the frequency of players hunting sisters , in recent times (last few weeks) i have run the sister proxima node on public and have gotten a squad in 2 out of 5 runs (other 3 were solo) and it wasnt even a full squad in either instance.

A one day refresh is acceptable in my opinion , i thought you meant more along the lines of the bounty refreshes or day night cycles which could be easy to miss.

I must have missed your suggestion about the vendor refresh with holokeys , but really do you wanna go down the route of that slot machine? aren't riven rolls enough of a pain to deal with as it is?

But i still do not understand your opposition to make them tradable , it is the simplest option to implement, they have re classified weapons as tradable in hotfixes in the past so its not an overly complex proposal.

But isnt holo key use a different subject ontop of the current subject? The current problem with the system is the vendor and how (in)accessible he is with long long cooldowns on his store. If you want holo keys to be usable for something else, ask for that, or talk about that.

You dont fix something by adding trading first. It is just as easy and quick to fix the actual problem and be done with it. Making them tradable is likely harder work than simply altering the rotation on a vendor or adding a manual refresh mechanic.

How the frick am I overstating the frequency of sister hunting? I'm saying sisters will never lead to a stockpile of keys, I'm saying the chance to get any use of those extra keys is extremely low because you need to run an absurd amount of sisters solo to see any gain whatsoever and you need to run a slightly less absurd of sisters in a group to see any gain whatsoever.

I really dont see how a bounty refresh timer would be bad either. 24-ish different chances across a day versus 1 refresh per day. I mean, I'd take the bounty refresh over my own. I was expecting your fomo was based on something like a 12h or 8h rotation, which can effectively be missed fully due to time zones.

A re-roll cant be compared to rivens. My idea was that you could pay the vendor to reroll the damage type, but not the value since valence fusion exsists to allow us to increase it overtime. The cost would also be the same no matter how much you re-roll. It would allow people to grind at their own rate. It would be like re-rolling vendors in other games, while rivens are still an extremely extreme version of re-crafting or re-rolling items in other games.

I dont agree with making them tradable being the simplest option. Changing the timer and then adding a refresh would be simpler and it would also be safer for the players. No risk to get a bullS#&$ weapon with the wrong % or damage type for instance. They'd have to implement a system for the weapons so we see exactly what we get, something we cannot even see in our arsenal except when comparing 2 weapons.

[0_The_F00l]

40 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But isnt holo key use a different subject ontop of the current subject? The current problem with the system is the vendor and how (in)accessible he is with long long cooldowns on his store. If you want holo keys to be usable for something else, ask for that, or talk about that.

I honestly don't care about the holokeys and the farm for it. I am against the farm only being the first step and then having to depend on a second level of RNG and time gating. Holokeys are like the second orokin ciphers as of now, will probably end up in helminths stomach eventually.

42 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont fix something by adding trading first. It is just as easy and quick to fix the actual problem and be done with it. Making them tradable is likely harder work than simply altering the rotation on a vendor or adding a manual refresh mechanic.

Neither you nor I can decide which is easier , but there are instances of weapons being made tradable after a hotfix but I don't recollect rotation times changing that often. We will need to drop this as neither of us can prove the other wrong.

46 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

How the frick am I overstating the frequency of sister hunting? I'm saying sisters will never lead to a stockpile of keys, I'm saying the chance to get any use of those extra keys is extremely low because you need to run an absurd amount of sisters solo to see any gain whatsoever and you need to run a slightly less absurd of sisters in a group to see any gain whatsoever.

Guess I misunderstood you , again, my apologies as we agree on this point.

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

I really dont see how a bounty refresh timer would be bad either. 24-ish different chances across a day versus 1 refresh per day. I mean, I'd take the bounty refresh over my own. I was expecting your fomo was based on something like a 12h or 8h rotation, which can effectively be missed fully due to time zones.

Cause I can log in once a day , but I can't log in every two hours , I do have a life outside of the game,  and I might get lucky and get it quick, but I may also get extremely unlucky and never see the roll I want , that's the whole thing about RNG which I want to avoid.

52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

.

A re-roll cant be compared to rivens. My idea was that you could pay the vendor to reroll the damage type, but not the value since valence fusion exsists to allow us to increase it overtime. The cost would also be the same no matter how much you re-roll. It would allow people to grind at their own rate. It would be like re-rolling vendors in other games, while rivens are still an extremely extreme version of re-crafting or re-rolling items in other games.

Rivens are exactly what best represent rerolls , also at this moment the vendor is universal. Everyone gets the exact same element and bonus. With your suggestion there would need to be one instance per player. Just like rivens.

57 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

I dont agree with making them tradable being the simplest option. Changing the timer and then adding a refresh would be simpler and it would also be safer for the players. No risk to get a bullS#&$ weapon with the wrong % or damage type for instance. They'd have to implement a system for the weapons so we see exactly what we get, something we cannot even see in our arsenal except when comparing 2 weapons.

Guess we will agree to disagree as we are only debating opinions.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I honestly don't care about the holokeys and the farm for it. I am against the farm only being the first step and then having to depend on a second level of RNG and time gating. Holokeys are like the second orokin ciphers as of now, will probably end up in helminths stomach eventually.

Neither you nor I can decide which is easier , but there are instances of weapons being made tradable after a hotfix but I don't recollect rotation times changing that often. We will need to drop this as neither of us can prove the other wrong.

Guess I misunderstood you , again, my apologies as we agree on this point.

Cause I can log in once a day , but I can't log in every two hours , I do have a life outside of the game,  and I might get lucky and get it quick, but I may also get extremely unlucky and never see the roll I want , that's the whole thing about RNG which I want to avoid.

Rivens are exactly what best represent rerolls , also at this moment the vendor is universal. Everyone gets the exact same element and bonus. With your suggestion there would need to be one instance per player. Just like rivens.

Guess we will agree to disagree as we are only debating opinions.

Which is why the drop rate of the keys is so silly high. Few things in the game sits at above the 35% drop rate that keys have, so they balanced it out with the wait on the vendor instead. Not the best decision, but it is still nice to have a reliable income for the resource needed. I have far less issues with the tenet melee weapon system as a whole than I do with the tediousness of spawning progs for sisters and liches, though that is a different discussion altogether.

Sure they have, but those weapons dont come with two random stats that the player you trade to need to be aware of. And I dont remember a single rotation time change, but that doesnt mean it is hard, just that it hasnt been needed. In reality a rotation time change should be possible on the backend given how the game is set up. But you are right we do not actually know.

It happens, no need to apologise.

But how would it be worse with several re-rolls even if you miss most of them? Aslong as you hit 1 of them it would be the same as a re-roll per 24h. And on days when you can play more you'd have several chances.

Yeah the universal nature of the vendor would need to be changed for on demand re-rolls. But that also raises a question, how would trading solve anything when the vendor is universal? Everyone gets the same element at the same time currently, and the most popular ones will likely be in demand across the board, so who would really sell them as it is now? More on point, who would sell them for a reasonable sum as it is now? And even though it would be one instance per player like rivens, it would still only be a single stat from a very limited pool that would roll. Toxin, Electric, Heat, Cold, Magnetic, Radiation, Impact. That is a 14% chance to get the desired element, add a cost of 5 keys to it and you'd look at 8 re-rolls or so each 45 minutes of key grinding.

Agreed to agree on disagreeing on that.

[0_The_F00l]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is why the drop rate of the keys is so silly high. Few things in the game sits at above the 35% drop rate that keys have, so they balanced it out with the wait on the vendor instead. Not the best decision, but it is still nice to have a reliable income for the resource needed. I have far less issues with the tenet melee weapon system as a whole than I do with the tediousness of spawning progs for sisters and liches, though that is a different discussion altogether.

Again, the holokey farm itself is not really what I have a problem with. Also I would like to point out that railjack missions are not as fast as regular missions even with an optimum setup and team (usually between 7 to 15 minutes depending on what you get as sub objectives) . So while 35% looks good on paper it's not to be taken at face value and would be on par with most other rare item drop rates especially since you need multiple of them.

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sure they have, but those weapons dont come with two random stats that the player you trade to need to be aware of. And I dont remember a single rotation time change, but that doesnt mean it is hard, just that it hasnt been needed. In reality a rotation time change should be possible on the backend given how the game is set up. But you are right we do not actually know.

It happens, no need to apologise.

Nothing to add here , will just move on.

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But how would it be worse with several re-rolls even if you miss most of them? Aslong as you hit 1 of them it would be the same as a re-roll per 24h. And on days when you can play more you'd have several chances.

It wouldn't be worse , it would just be another instance of a slot machine , I am  personally against having more dependency on RNG than we already have though I suppose there is little to be done there.

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah the universal nature of the vendor would need to be changed for on demand re-rolls. But that also raises a question, how would trading solve anything when the vendor is universal? Everyone gets the same element at the same time currently, and the most popular ones will likely be in demand across the board, so who would really sell them as it is now? More on point, who would sell them for a reasonable sum as it is now? And even though it would be one instance per player like rivens, it would still only be a single stat from a very limited pool that would roll. Toxin, Electric, Heat, Cold, Magnetic, Radiation, Impact. That is a 14% chance to get the desired element, add a cost of 5 keys to it and you'd look at 8 re-rolls or so each 45 minutes of key grinding.

Going though our dialogue I realised purely making them tradable would not fix the issue completely. I still feel trading will make it more convenient. But will need to be paired with a faster refresh /means to re roll the weapon element (atleast) for making trading feasible and worthwhile. Whether the reroll happens before you purchase the weapon or after you purchase the weapon could be something to consider. 

I don't think vendor refresh is feasible (but again just opinion can't really say for sure) 

Perhaps spectral debris (from granum void spectre drops) can be used to change the element of the weapon after I purchase it. Gives me more incentive to run both the void storms and granum void. And those not inclined for either can just purchase it from those that have it.

The more I think about it , the more it makes sense. You could defintely wait for just the right roll but you could also grind towards it or trade for it.

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Again, the holokey farm itself is not really what I have a problem with. Also I would like to point out that railjack missions are not as fast as regular missions even with an optimum setup and team (usually between 7 to 15 minutes depending on what you get as sub objectives) . So while 35% looks good on paper it's not to be taken at face value and would be on par with most other rare item drop rates especially since you need multiple of them.

It wouldn't be worse , it would just be another instance of a slot machine , I am  personally against having more dependency on RNG than we already have though I suppose there is little to be done there.

Going though our dialogue I realised purely making them tradable would not fix the issue completely. I still feel trading will make it more convenient. But will need to be paired with a faster refresh /means to re roll the weapon element (atleast) for making trading feasible and worthwhile. Whether the reroll happens before you purchase the weapon or after you purchase the weapon could be something to consider. 

I don't think vendor refresh is feasible (but again just opinion can't really say for sure) 

Perhaps spectral debris (from granum void spectre drops) can be used to change the element of the weapon after I purchase it. Gives me more incentive to run both the void storms and granum void. And those not inclined for either can just purchase it from those that have it.

The more I think about it , the more it makes sense. You could defintely wait for just the right roll but you could also grind towards it or trade for it.

When playing solo in RJ it is rare for me to go beyond 7 minutes. It is the few rare cases where the "kill 3 crewships" and "destroy objective" pop up that drag it out, and mostly that is due to the lack of Tiatanium drops in veil to fuel the forward arti in a reasonable time. Drops rates themselves matter little, the avarage time is all that really matters. And that is consistant in veil and pluto proximas.

I'm still curious how you think more chances would result in more RNG dependency. The chance isnt higher for you with a 24h CD compared to a 1h CD, even if you miss several of the 1h refreshes.

I just think that if DE makes them simply more accessible and tradable, they'll also nerf key aquisition to balance it. I mean, they are fast to get as is, people are just impatient for the wait and it is quite frankly boring to wait instead of play. If DE changes the re-roll into something "free" I really suspect a drastic change to obtaining the keys aswell. If they add a re-roll we pay for I expect they keep key aquisition as is, since at that point it would just be a "farm at your own pace" kinda thing. But then again, they knee-jerk changed reactor in RJ so there was zero reason to chase them anymore.

I wouldnt mind debris to change the element. Infact it would be a good substitue if it is RNG based and the cost is appropriate. If you could get 1 re-roll per granum void run it would be fairly equal to farming a sister weapon from start to finish. Since once you do spawn the sister, the time between mission 1 and the final showdown is roughly the same length as farming for 1 tenet melee in veil/pluto proximas. And farming for debris to get a re-roll per run wouldnt be that different from running missions back-to-back to spawn the right weapon.

[0_The_F00l]

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

When playing solo in RJ it is rare for me to go beyond 7 minutes. It is the few rare cases where the "kill 3 crewships" and "destroy objective" pop up that drag it out, and mostly that is due to the lack of Tiatanium drops in veil to fuel the forward arti in a reasonable time. Drops rates themselves matter little, the avarage time is all that really matters. And that is consistant in veil and pluto proximas.

Yeah , that's why I said the holokey farm itself is not the issue.

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm still curious how you think more chances would result in more RNG dependency. The chance isnt higher for you with a 24h CD compared to a 1h CD, even if you miss several of the 1h refreshes.

Cause each slot in a slot machine is an RNG dependency, I think I wasn't able to clearly articulate what I meant. Rivens are one RNG slot machine (veiled riven weapon type and means to unlock ,  unveiled riven weapon type, riven stats are each a slot/dependency), liches are another (lich weapon , weapon bonus , lich requiem) , sisters are similar ,tickers crew shop as well (faction , stats , quirks, time of day) , and the tenet vendor shop is also another (weapon bonus , weapon element, time of day )  , I don't want another layer of RNG over what already exists. But my wanting it or not is of little consequence if it makes it more easy to acquire. Sometimes we choose the lesser of two evils.

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just think that if DE makes them simply more accessible and tradable, they'll also nerf key aquisition to balance it. I mean, they are fast to get as is, people are just impatient for the wait and it is quite frankly boring to wait instead of play. If DE changes the re-roll into something "free" I really suspect a drastic change to obtaining the keys aswell. If they add a re-roll we pay for I expect they keep key aquisition as is, since at that point it would just be a "farm at your own pace" kinda thing. But then again, they knee-jerk changed reactor in RJ so there was zero reason to chase them anymore.

I wouldnt mind debris to change the element. Infact it would be a good substitue if it is RNG based and the cost is appropriate. If you could get 1 re-roll per granum void run it would be fairly equal to farming a sister weapon from start to finish. Since once you do spawn the sister, the time between mission 1 and the final showdown is roughly the same length as farming for 1 tenet melee in veil/pluto proximas. And farming for debris to get a re-roll per run wouldnt be that different from running missions back-to-back to spawn the right weapon.

I don't think the acquisition is any slower than the equivalent lich/sister hunt as is. I can usually hammer out a sister/lich hunt solo in under 2 hours max , usually faster.

Considering a 35% drop rate for holokeys for a 10 minute mission on veil ( sure you can do faster or slower) would also net you 40 keys in 2 hours (at the cost of your sanity and eyestrain maybe) 

So I don't see a reason to make it slower , 

I would think the debris would act similar to kuva. With a steady ramp up and final plateau at 10 rolls. I haven't really kept track of debris drops (cause I haven't bothered building custom hounds considering I had 3 dozen or so lying in my foundry) so I am not sure of what would be a fair amount.

But I foresee an ask of making it possible to roll other tenet weapons similarly if this becomes a thing. Which may not be a bad thing by itself.

[SneakyErvin]

10 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I would think the debris would act similar to kuva. With a steady ramp up and final plateau at 10 rolls. I haven't really kept track of debris drops (cause I haven't bothered building custom hounds considering I had 3 dozen or so lying in my foundry) so I am not sure of what would be a fair amount.

But I foresee an ask of making it possible to roll other tenet weapons similarly if this becomes a thing. Which may not be a bad thing by itself.

No idea here either about the amount that drops. So not sure on the price either per re-roll.

I wouldnt mind a re-roll option for other tenet weapons either, I would like it for kuva weapons aswell but using kuva as the resource. Would make it far easier to switch and test new elements on maxed weapons.

[quxier]

On 2021-10-23 at 3:43 PM, SneakyErvin said:

1) The difference to be at the starting point with railjack is different how? It has been out long enough so people shouldnt really be at the starting point when new things are released. Just as you say we finish star chart for arbis, we've had more than enough time to clear all of the proximas before storms were introduced.

2) What data do you need exactly? Have you not seen how scarse the number of item/mod combinations are in RJ? There is no uber-gearing in RJ, the best gear is just the generic gear you get as you go.

3) Exactly, it doesnt mean they cannot play it, it means they cannot do it the most efficient way, so I really dont see how you think RJ should be different or what your point really is. You argued regarding my avarage, which is based on the avarage time it takes. I even specified that it was based on doing the right missions. And the avarage in Pluto Promixa doesnt change that much either, since the pre-objectives tend to be far far quicker compared to veil, aswell as letting you avoid other certain bumps in the road. One would probably think since the avarage in Veil is around 45 minutes per weapon, Pluto would be 90 minutes per weapon due to granting half the keys. That isnt the case since Pluto has far more short objective before the main one, and it doesnt have shielded Crewships nor does it lack Titanium as a consistant drop to fuel your forward arti. Not that you need it very often in Pluto because the most you need to kill are 2 crewships, mostly just 1, as opposed to Veil that most times require 3. 

1) RJ is side game. There were almost 0 incentive to play this mode. I don't like ship-fights and everything were tradable so I haven't bothered more than ~3 times to finish single RJ (I'm solo player). I've just bought Sev & one stance mod. After void storm there were reason to go there. Tenet weapons were not tradables. I just wanted 1 tenet melee. I somehow managed to solo 1 mission and get a crew. I managed to get to "5 holo" missions. I have gathered 40 holos and I haven't bothered with RJ since then. I've bought (with Holos) Exec with wrong element (electricity but I want heat) and weak chance (~25%) but gimmick almost don't use stuffs (no reach mod, damage, status etc). So I don't feel like touching RJ anymore. And there is horrible storms that you don't see too much but that's another issue.

2) I've seen lot of weapons so I assume there is some choices, better and worse.

I just need data. Just because you are using one gear doesn't mean other person will be using the same (or similar) gear. I'm using not the best gear. I can assume that some players that will use not the best gear just because they don't know. There could be MR8 that don't know everything. I'm not saying that some MR is dumb or something, but it's more likely that lower MR has less knowledge.

3) My point is that not everyone doing same missions. Whatever reason you cannot say with very high probability that most people will doing X. We are talking about people from MR 8 to MR30 (and Legendaries, I don't know shortcut for it). You said that you were doing one mission <5 (based on my calculation or something, I've forgotten). For me it's 10-15 minutes (I don't remember I don't play RJ anymore) for at most 5 holo chance. And I haven't gotten ~37% chance either. I had much more luck than people that have been farming for hours without (or very few) holo drops. I could probably spend time upgrading RJ (and probably creating mechs if Orphix is necessary) but I could as well spend my time getting a chance at holo. It's the same time for me.

Plague star & Ghoulsaw acquisition were much faster. I had no rank in PS so I had to level it up. After that I lazily get 1.5k standing times 3 per one Cetus visit. By lazily I mean not great gear and picking/killing Sentient cores.

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

1) RJ is side game. There were almost 0 incentive to play this mode. I don't like ship-fights and everything were tradable so I haven't bothered more than ~3 times to finish single RJ (I'm solo player). I've just bought Sev & one stance mod. After void storm there were reason to go there. Tenet weapons were not tradables. I just wanted 1 tenet melee. I somehow managed to solo 1 mission and get a crew. I managed to get to "5 holo" missions. I have gathered 40 holos and I haven't bothered with RJ since then. I've bought (with Holos) Exec with wrong element (electricity but I want heat) and weak chance (~25%) but gimmick almost don't use stuffs (no reach mod, damage, status etc). So I don't feel like touching RJ anymore. And there is horrible storms that you don't see too much but that's another issue.

2) I've seen lot of weapons so I assume there is some choices, better and worse.

I just need data. Just because you are using one gear doesn't mean other person will be using the same (or similar) gear. I'm using not the best gear. I can assume that some players that will use not the best gear just because they don't know. There could be MR8 that don't know everything. I'm not saying that some MR is dumb or something, but it's more likely that lower MR has less knowledge.

3) My point is that not everyone doing same missions. Whatever reason you cannot say with very high probability that most people will doing X. We are talking about people from MR 8 to MR30 (and Legendaries, I don't know shortcut for it). You said that you were doing one mission <5 (based on my calculation or something, I've forgotten). For me it's 10-15 minutes (I don't remember I don't play RJ anymore) for at most 5 holo chance. And I haven't gotten ~37% chance either. I had much more luck than people that have been farming for hours without (or very few) holo drops. I could probably spend time upgrading RJ (and probably creating mechs if Orphix is necessary) but I could as well spend my time getting a chance at holo. It's the same time for me.

Plague star & Ghoulsaw acquisition were much faster. I had no rank in PS so I had to level it up. After that I lazily get 1.5k standing times 3 per one Cetus visit. By lazily I mean not great gear and picking/killing Sentient cores.

1. Well that is your opinion if it is a sidegame. The intent of it isnt that. So you and others avoiding it shouldnt be a reason to set the bar lower for the new things added there.

2. They all rain as rewards and there is no gun that makes a significant difference. It all depends on your playstyle and I cannot tell you which style to play so cannot tell you which cannon to use.

3. Then you just havent progressed enough. Avarages tends to be based on the best potential mode for something and how fast that can be ran. And my avarage time when doing Pluto prior to the Veil key changes wasnt that far off from Veil now. Pluto consistantly gave me better pre-objectives compared to Veil since it spawns far weaker crewships, fewer are needed to be destroyed and titanium drop in abundance there (incase you screw up a crewship kill and need an extra artillery shot at them).

The main thing to scew the avarage time in your favor is to do the right missions and ignore the long ones when they are in rotation. Dont waste time on defense, survival, orphix (unless you need it for mech stuff also), volatile and that crap. Do spy and exterminate, they have really short pre-objectives mostly and the main missions are also quick, a mission tends to take between 5-7 minute solo, with really bad objectives in veil they can take double that, but that happens very rarely. I started out farming keys by doing survival, and thinking that they had a chance to drop per rotation in endless, they dont, they only drop as end of mission rewards, which is why spy and exterminate are most effective. After figuring that out I've only done spy and exterminate, if something else is up I just do other things in the game. Just as I dont dredge through mobile defense and crap to unlock relics, I wait for good fissures to come around. Same reason I only farm relics in one of the disruption nodes, because I can target the relics I want much better than in any other place.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

1. Well that is your opinion if it is a sidegame. The intent of it isnt that. So you and others avoiding it shouldnt be a reason to set the bar lower for the new things added there.

Of course it's subjective but look how well it fits into the rest of the game. What you can use outside RJ missions. You get frame, weapon(s), some mods/arcanes, relics, endo and credits. Maybe I've forgotten about something. Most of those things you can get outside RJ. Other stuffs that you get in RJ are weapons/mods and RJ parts. Those however are only usable in RJ missions, and only in "RJ mode".

The intent of RJ is to "join" many missions together. However it's not how it's now.

I don't want to "lower the bar". I'm fine when mission takes ~10 minutes and your rewards are near 37%. There are other problems but that's out of scope of this topic. My point is that not everyone will get a weapon per 1-2 hour(s). So it's reasonable to make it trade-able.

 

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, quxier said:

Of course it's subjective but look how well it fits into the rest of the game. What you can use outside RJ missions. You get frame, weapon(s), some mods/arcanes, relics, endo and credits. Maybe I've forgotten about something. Most of those things you can get outside RJ. Other stuffs that you get in RJ are weapons/mods and RJ parts. Those however are only usable in RJ missions, and only in "RJ mode".

The intent of RJ is to "join" many missions together. However it's not how it's now.

I don't want to "lower the bar". I'm fine when mission takes ~10 minutes and your rewards are near 37%. There are other problems but that's out of scope of this topic. My point is that not everyone will get a weapon per 1-2 hour(s). So it's reasonable to make it trade-able.

 

Railjack just hasnt had the time to grow yet. And adding trade to the few things obtainable in there will make that counter productive to the growth of it. Because if they do it now, then the next thing they add will have the same demand, since someone will point out that they havent done RJ enough to farm it because it was optional for the previous item and that RJ is an island and so on. And more and more things will take part in RJ over time, so it is better they put things in there to reward players. 

A big gripe people had with RJ was that it awarded nothing that allowed progress in the rest of the game. They added more and more things to RJ to make it interact with the rest of the game through progress made in there. And with how weapons are obtained now, they'd likely end up very expensive since everyone rolls the same element on the same weapon on the same day. It would be very hard to get a weapon by buying it from someone, since the same element is popular among most players. Though I'm likely odd since I went for cold on all my tenet melee in order to be able to use just Primed Fever Strike and slot more crit damage, attack speed or a riven instead of a 60/60 cold mod.

Plus the big difference is also that when it comes to sisters and liches, it isnt just enough to throw plat on the weapon you want, you need to actually play the game mode the grind for the weapon is locked behind. You cannot get away from that, which is also a reason why trading Tenet Melee would be very odd.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Railjack just hasnt had the time to grow yet. And adding trade to the few things obtainable in there will make that counter productive to the growth of it. Because if they do it now, then the next thing they add will have the same demand, since someone will point out that they havent done RJ enough to farm it because it was optional for the previous item and that RJ is an island and so on. And more and more things will take part in RJ over time, so it is better they put things in there to reward players. 

Most of things are trade-able. Either directly via blueprints/parts or via resources (where you just farm generic standing). And yet game still grows.

I love the idea of "different way of acquisition". I don't like Defection but Survival is ok for me. So I grinded Harrow in Survi. I could as well plat it. I hate RJ so I wish I could do normal mission instead as well. Less efficient? Sure but I could at least enjoy game more.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It would be very hard to get a weapon by buying it from someone, since the same element is popular among most players. Though I'm likely odd since I went for cold on all my tenet melee in order to be able to use just Primed Fever Strike and slot more crit damage, attack speed or a riven instead of a 60/60 cold mod.

You could as well buy Holokeys. Sure, there is RNG but there were suggestion like you pay 20 Holos for weak % and 80 for 60%. Something like this. The point is that they can make system where you can buy at least a weapon to try and if you want make it stronger - you pay more.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And with how weapons are obtained now, they'd likely end up very expensive since everyone rolls the same element on the same weapon on the same day.

That's how kuva weapon works. You get weak one below <50plat and better that cost few hundreds. That's normal.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Plus the big difference is also that when it comes to sisters and liches, it isnt just enough to throw plat on the weapon you want, you need to actually play the game mode the grind for the weapon is locked behind. You cannot get away from that, which is also a reason why trading Tenet Melee would be very odd.

I can get RJ, Mechs any frame and 90+% items with plat. Liches are odd one that requires payment and grind as well. However I guess there were some kind of limitation so they couldn't just let us sell kuva weapons.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Most of things are trade-able. Either directly via blueprints/parts or via resources (where you just farm generic standing). And yet game still grows.

I love the idea of "different way of acquisition". I don't like Defection but Survival is ok for me. So I grinded Harrow in Survi. I could as well plat it. I hate RJ so I wish I could do normal mission instead as well. Less efficient? Sure but I could at least enjoy game more.

You could as well buy Holokeys. Sure, there is RNG but there were suggestion like you pay 20 Holos for weak % and 80 for 60%. Something like this. The point is that they can make system where you can buy at least a weapon to try and if you want make it stronger - you pay more.

That's how kuva weapon works. You get weak one below <50plat and better that cost few hundreds. That's normal.

I can get RJ, Mechs any frame and 90+% items with plat. Liches are odd one that requires payment and grind as well. However I guess there were some kind of limitation so they couldn't just let us sell kuva weapons.

I wouldnt mind a different system involving the holokeys. My stance is more against them being tradable between players. And that comes down to how short the grind is for the actual weapon and that the wait time is the actual slowing factor, which can be fixed in other ways besides trading. Tenet Melee should take about aslong to get per weapon as a lich or sister weapon since they are technically of the same "power". Trading wont make it so, heck trading would make them much faster to get since you already grind keys in storms, so you crack relics that can translate to plat at the same time as you grind keys. Just allowing us to do something with the vendor or weapons with more keys involved would be a great step and allow everyone to do it at their own pace.

I think the reason liches and sisters require the grind is due to some planned "time for obtainment" idea DE had. You buy your way out of RNG, either all of it or parts of it depending on how much you wanna spend. You still need to spend atleast around an hour to unlock it.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tenet Melee should take about aslong to get per weapon as a lich or sister weapon since they are technically of the same "power".

Prime versions are in general more powerful yet they cost at most half the cost of normal version. You can even buy prime frames for ~50 plat. Compare it to Harrow. After some time after Harrow prime introduction, Harrow prime will cost probably less than 150p. Normal version costs ~325 (- reactor & slot). Farming it takes hours if not days for one part (Defection or Kuva Survival).

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think the reason liches and sisters require the grind is due to some planned "time for obtainment" idea DE had. You buy your way out of RNG, either all of it or parts of it depending on how much you wanna spend. You still need to spend atleast around an hour to unlock it.

They are creating less content than we can consume. And that's assuming we consume most of that contents. That's not the case for some of us (we may either don't like or stuffs doesn't work like 2nd-ary Vermisplicer).

Last 2021 I enjoyed Sev's gloom, Ghoulsaw riding, Kuva tonkor, and maybe few stuffs that I've forgotten.

Lich requiem mods are for artificially increasing grind. There is no in-game tips what kind of requiem Lich will have. It's just kill-and-check. They lessened the grind but they put another copy-paste fight in RJ.

Not everyone enjoys RNG or long grind. If they cannot made enjoyable content then why force people into it. Just make it trade-able/buyable. I think that everything should be buyable/trade-able.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Prime versions are in general more powerful yet they cost at most half the cost of normal version. You can even buy prime frames for ~50 plat. Compare it to Harrow. After some time after Harrow prime introduction, Harrow prime will cost probably less than 150p. Normal version costs ~325 (- reactor & slot). Farming it takes hours if not days for one part (Defection or Kuva Survival).

They are creating less content than we can consume. And that's assuming we consume most of that contents. That's not the case for some of us (we may either don't like or stuffs doesn't work like 2nd-ary Vermisplicer).

Last 2021 I enjoyed Sev's gloom, Ghoulsaw riding, Kuva tonkor, and maybe few stuffs that I've forgotten.

Lich requiem mods are for artificially increasing grind. There is no in-game tips what kind of requiem Lich will have. It's just kill-and-check. They lessened the grind but they put another copy-paste fight in RJ.

Not everyone enjoys RNG or long grind. If they cannot made enjoyable content then why force people into it. Just make it trade-able/buyable. I think that everything should be buyable/trade-able.

It all comes down to balance. Primes arent ment to be hard to get, they arent even hard to farm. So buying them or farming them doesnt really change much. You spend hours in fissures eitherway to farm parts to sell to buy the prime if you dont farm to farm the prime pieces. And I agree, requiems are artificial to increase the grind, but they had to have some system for us to grind, it just comes with this type of game. I'm not overly fond either of long grinds or extreme RNG, but we cant really say that Tenet Melee are either of those two. Yeah the vendor sucks with his CD, but you dont need to spend any active time on that RNG, you spend 5 minutes each few days to check him. The keys themselves are silly quick to get.

I think DE should just balance things so they are roughly equally quick/easy to obtain to similar things. Right now that does apply to tenet/kuva and tenet melee. Yeah they can improve the vendor so you can grind more to get a weapon quicker instead of waiting.