Rebalance Granum Void rewards

[Darthplagueis13]

Not gonna lie: Farming the Granum Void isn't fun. You end up having to run around a lot to get the bloody Crowns, once in a blue moon you get a map without a golden hand and that entire run is wasted, and when you end up actually doing it, it's stressful, repetitive and incredibly frustrating.

Why is it frustrating? 2 reasons:

1: If you don't get the C rotation, that's a failed run unless you were just trying to spawn a sister. The only reason to do the Granum Void at all is to get the weapon parts and Protea blueprints. A and B only contain some ressources and a few decorations.

2: The Duplicats. Dear god, the Duplicats. In 10 runs on Nightmare Difficulty, I only got 2 different rewards out of the 4 there are. To add insult to injury, the Protea parts are also less than half as likely to drop as the other stuff. The worst offender out of the bunch are the Mortuus shoulder guards, which are not only not particularily good-looking, but they also cannot be traded and are purely cosmetic. Whenever I get these pieces of garbage all I can think is that could have been the Protea Systems instead.

 

How to fix:

1: Yeet the Shoulderguards out of the Nightmare C rotation. This should not take up the spot of something actually useful. Throw it into another A or B rotation. Instead, move one of the Stropha parts from the normal difficulty over, so that there's always 4 rewards in the C rotation, no matter which difficulty you are playing on.

2: Even out the droprates for all parts. 25% for everything, including the Protea BP's.

3: Add a chance for the B rotation to grant a Granum Crown for its respective difficulty.

4: Abandoning a mission should refund spent Crowns. After all, you're forfeiting the rewards.

 

[Leqesai]

I disagree with everything you're proposing here.

1: Drop tables (In a free to play MMO) should always include stuff that is not ideal. This is what makes rolling the good loot more meaningful.

2: Evening drop rates is a terrible idea. The whole point of drop rate percentages is to incentivize the search for rare gear.

3: It makes no sense to receive Granum Crowns as a reward and this would also dillute the pool with more stuff that isn't the gear you want. Granum Crowns are exceptionally easy to obtain. You should be getting one in nearly every corpus spaceship mission.

4: This is a terrible idea that could be abused ad nauseam. 

[Laveillon]

2 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

1: Drop tables should always include stuff that is not ideal. This is what makes rolling the good loot more meaningful.

People with your mentality are a poison to the loot tables. The game is grindy already, stop praising bad loot tables. You should also value your own time much more, if you believe getting repeatedly junk is a fun way to pass time.

[Leqesai]

21 minutes ago, Laveillon said:

People with your mentality are a poison to the loot tables. The game is grindy already, stop praising bad loot tables. You should also value your own time much more, if you believe getting repeatedly junk is a fun way to pass time.

People with my mentality realize what game they're playing. Warframe is all about the grind. DE have a method for how they generate loot tables.

Do I like getting bad rewards? Nope. Am I going to whine about loot even though I am playing a game with notoriously bad loot tables? Nope.

You people don't seem to get it. DE needs players to play for huge amounts of time. If they just give everything to you then no one would stick around for thousands of hours. It is a free to play game built on a model where time invested correlates with money invested. The longer people play the more likely they are to spend real money. The complaining about drop rates and stuff appears to come from people who don't understand that Warframe is not a passion project. It is a business. DE want your money and the longer you play the more likely you are to give it to them.

It is similar to what a drug dealer does. They give you a little taste because they understand you'll be back for more. 

Making the drop tables bad, but not terrible, is what keeps you coming back for more. It is a carrot on a stick, and they aren't going to change it just because a couple of people on their forums don't like it.

[Darthplagueis13]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

1: Drop tables should always include stuff that is not ideal. This is what makes rolling the good loot more meaningful.

 I don't know if you've noticed, but Warframe isn't a looter game at its core. The way grind in this game works is about grind aka incremental progression, not just rolling the dice over and over again and hope you get lucky. Grind is an entirely different concept from RNG. The whole term derives from an activity that involves slow and steady progression. Besides, even if one of the rewards isn't garbage, there's still plenty of room for not-ideal outcomes, such as duplicates, anything that you don't want or need personally, or quite simply also failure.

What justification is there for this farm in particular to be worse than an average boss farm? Protea isn't the strongest frame in the game and yet, in the time it might take me to get a single one of her blueprints, I can get the parts for Mag, Loki, Rhino AND Excalibur, simply because DE decided to let those farms be straight-forward, instead of having players waste time on time-gated farms, mission keys or pityfully low drop rates.

 

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

4: This is a terrible idea that could be abused ad nauseam. 

That's partially the point. Wanna know what is worse than grinding a diceroll? Grinding for the right to even throw the dice and then have it slide off your table and not be counted, without letting you repeat the throw. Besides, it's not like you get your reward as soon as you finish the Granum Void. You get it when you finish your mission, meaning that yes, you could abuse it to never not get a C rotation reward, but you could not abuse it to get the specific reward you want. Besides, other key-locked farms such as Mutalist Alad V or Kela de Thaym don't use up your key if the mission is abandoned or a failure.

 

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

3: It makes no sense to receive Granum Crowns as a reward and this would also dillute the pool with more stuff that isn't the gear you want. Granum Crowns are exceptionally easy to obtain. You should be getting one in nearly every corpus spaceship mission.

1: Rewards in this game don't make sense to begin with. Why would doing anything in the Granum Void allow me to access to Corpus Ship Bridge Scene from the Captura?  Yet, that's a possible reward. At least the Crowns are directly related to Parvos Granum and the Granum Void itself. Sure, it would dillute the pool a bit, but that's why I specifically mentioned it being in the B rotation, so that it doesn't compete with the relevant stuff.

And sure, it's easy to get. But what it isn't is fast. Assuming you are only doing capture missions and finish the objective before the Treasurer spawns, that's still only about 1 every 5 minutes since it can take up to 4 minutes in a non-endless mission and then you still have loading times to be concerned with. And the fastest frames to farm Crowns with aren't ideal for doing the actual Granum Void since the specters can melt you very quickly if your frame isn't tanky, so you either take a risk of failing the void by using a squishy but fast frame, or you sacrifice speed by using a tanky frame.

[iPathos]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

I disagree with everything you're proposing here.

1: Drop tables (In a free to play MMO) should always include stuff that is not ideal. This is what makes rolling the good loot more meaningful.

2: Evening drop rates is a terrible idea. The whole point of drop rate percentages is to incentivize the search for rare gear.

3: It makes no sense to receive Granum Crowns as a reward and this would also dillute the pool with more stuff that isn't the gear you want. Granum Crowns are exceptionally easy to obtain. You should be getting one in nearly every corpus spaceship mission.

4: This is a terrible idea that could be abused ad nauseam. 

1: There's a significant difference between getting things that "aren't ideal" and things that are "functionally useless" to get. Things like tens or hundreds of duplicate Mortuus Shoulder Guards serve no purpose and can't even be sold for a pittance to make it mildly worth the time. The bare minimum should be that they're either tradeable or are able to be sold off to recoup some of the lost time.

2: I also disagree with evening it out, but I do agree it could use a refresh or some tweaking. (This goes for many other places than just the Granum Void though...looking at you Credit Caches.)

3: Receiving a few of the same tier you used as a rare reward would incentivize running more without the terror of getting that reward commonly. It's also not about ease, it's about tedium - which unfortunately also means it's exceptionally unlikely to be added.

4: This I agree with, though at the same time your reward is unidentified until mission extraction afaik - so the difference would be moot.

[Laveillon]

55 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

People with my mentality realize what game they're playing. Warframe is all about the grind. DE have a method for how they generate loot tables.

Do I like getting bad rewards? Nope. Am I going to whine about loot even though I am playing a game with notoriously bad loot tables? Nope.

You people don't seem to get it. DE needs players to play for huge amounts of time. If they just give everything to you then no one would stick around for thousands of hours. It is a free to play game built on a model where time invested correlates with money invested. The longer people play the more likely they are to spend real money. The complaining about drop rates and stuff appears to come from people who don't understand that Warframe is not a passion project. It is a business. DE want your money and the longer you play the more likely you are to give it to them.

It is similar to what a drug dealer does. They give you a little taste because they understand you'll be back for more. 

Making the drop tables bad, but not terrible, is what keeps you coming back for more. It is a carrot on a stick, and they aren't going to change it just because a couple of people on their forums don't like it.

The gamers as a whole community made it happen, game comapnies grew greedier and greedier because we are fighting against each other, rather than facing the company and telling them; Now that's to much mate, you should tune your greed back.

We totally lost our power to change what we have now, but that does not invalidate these type of posts. People will always yearn for better. This is exactly why i limit my playtime, because up to this day, after closing in on 2200 login days in this version, this is still the first game i launch. Yet after the first few minutes, i lost all my will to play, because all i see everywhere is trash rewards, not worth my time now.

You don't seem to get it. You are one of those, who blatantly support company greed. Rest assured, i know how things work. That does not mean i have to agree with them. Nor should you.

[Leqesai]

30 minutes ago, Laveillon said:

The gamers as a whole community made it happen, game comapnies grew greedier and greedier because we are fighting against each other, rather than facing the company and telling them; Now that's to much mate, you should tune your greed back.

We totally lost our power to change what we have now, but that does not invalidate these type of posts. People will always yearn for better. This is exactly why i limit my playtime, because up to this day, after closing in on 2200 login days in this version, this is still the first game i launch. Yet after the first few minutes, i lost all my will to play, because all i see everywhere is trash rewards, not worth my time now.

You don't seem to get it. You are one of those, who blatantly support company greed. Rest assured, i know how things work. That does not mean i have to agree with them. Nor should you.

I see where you're coming from, believe me I do.

Also, my perspective isn't one of support, it is one of resignation. I have been an avid supporter of change within the games I love for many, many years, and at this point in my life I am more prone to leaving things in the hands of the developers because it is a waste of energy to try and compel them to make worthwhile changes. I just accept that it sucks and resign to having to deal with their corporate BS.

[Laveillon]

14 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I see where you're coming from, believe me I do.

Also, my perspective isn't one of support, it is one of resignation. I have been an avid supporter of change within the games I love for many, many years, and at this point in my life I am more prone to leaving things in the hands of the developers because it is a waste of energy to try and compel them to make worthwhile changes. I just accept that it sucks and resign to having to deal with their corporate BS.

I'm glad we've come to a middle ground and also want to apologize if i were a little on the harsh side. I'm just pissed, that all we have in Warframe is half assed features and content islands. All my friends dropped the game long time ago, so there is less and less thing to do for me.

I't won't be the same as it was in the beginning, is it?

[randomoddguy]

On 2021-11-04 at 12:44 PM, Laveillon said:

People with your mentality are a poison to the loot tables. The game is grindy already, stop praising bad loot tables. You should also value your own time much more, if you believe getting repeatedly junk is a fun way to pass time.

Uh. While on the one hand that's a fair criticism. On the other hand, if you don't like rolling dice with rewards and watching numbers slowly go up this probably isn't the game for you.

 

 

On 2021-11-05 at 5:24 AM, Laveillon said:

I'm glad we've come to a middle ground and also want to apologize if i were a little on the harsh side. I'm just pissed, that all we have in Warframe is half assed features and content islands. All my friends dropped the game long time ago, so there is less and less thing to do for me.

I't won't be the same as it was in the beginning, is it?

They really should stop abandoning content, not going back and fixing bugs/making things more appealing/fleshing things out/making the new content feel integrated with the game as a whole, etc. Though. That's just bad practice. You're definitely right there.

[Laveillon]

2 hours ago, (NSW)randomoddguy said:

watching numbers slowly go up

Last time i checked, there is no correlation between multiple runs' drop chances. So if you mean, i'll probably should do 50 missions to get one 'guaranteed' reward, then yes. This is not my game anymore. In the early days, by playing casually almost all of my needed stuff dropped. Maybe luck was also involved, but i Never had to deliberately go somewhere and grind One particular part or item.
Resource was never grinded by me, i had abundand mutagen sample by the time Hema was introduced... luckily. And somehow pre-nightmare i managed to stockpile about 50-ish alertium. The later resources, well i hardly played in the past two years i think.

 

2 hours ago, (NSW)randomoddguy said:

They really should stop abandoning content

Aw man, if i could have a wish - regarding only warframe - then it would be this. Sarpa is still broken and no one bats an eye. I fear Warframe will sone become a gacha-like hellhole of a game. That would make my heart crumble.

[randomoddguy]

21 minutes ago, Laveillon said:

Last time i checked, there is no correlation between multiple runs' drop chances. So if you mean, i'll probably should do 50 missions to get one 'guaranteed' reward, then yes. This is not my game anymore. In the early days, by playing casually almost all of my needed stuff dropped. Maybe luck was also involved, but i Never had to deliberately go somewhere and grind One particular part or item.
Resource was never grinded by me, i had abundand mutagen sample by the time Hema was introduced... luckily. And somehow pre-nightmare i managed to stockpile about 50-ish alertium. The later resources, well i hardly played in the past two years i think.

 

Aw man, if i could have a wish - regarding only warframe - then it would be this. Sarpa is still broken and no one bats an eye. I fear Warframe will sone become a gacha-like hellhole of a game. That would make my heart crumble.

The main things of the sort would be standing, affinity, the amount of nanospores in your inventory... Anyway if it makes you feel better despite being an F2P since its inception this game has never been predatory. The devs do actually seem keen on making a game that is enjoyable to play as their primary goal, despite people calling them 'greedy' (people will, rather hypocrtically at that, declare such things simply because they hear similar insults sent toward game devs without doing any research or really feeling anything but the emotion of 'this change to the game inconvenienced me, therefore it is bad and they must be bad for doing it.')

They are not very GOOD at making a good game. But they are genuinely trying. Which is more than I can say for any other triple a studio. Really, the greedy ones are the players. Have you seen how much Ash Prime is being sold for right now? Holy S#&$.

[Laveillon]

Well, i don't claim i did any research, but i remember them promoting a trip around Earth in orbit as a prize, that's a pretty penny. Also remember the Riven mafia case, and the cheapest Ash Prime set at the moment on the market is 210 plat, while the very first Nikana riven is set to be default 2500 plat. It is true, that you can trade and have luck with Rivens, but the options to 'craft' them are still not present, because that is one of their huge selling point, and not the cosmetics. Also-also we will have many more Kuva and Tenet weapons, since they need 5 forma/piece. There is no wonder we don't get any QoL change to crafting those pieces, even reducing them by one hour took about 3-4 years...

Oh, they are greedy allright, but they put more effort in hiding it. DE changed, for the worse, but that is only my opinion. All i have is wishful thinking.

[randomoddguy]

Oh no no. Take a look at his prices on the SWITCH.

[Laveillon]

Thank you for pointing that out, it is indeed almost 4 times the price. But it is just a peak, i dare to say the market prices will stabilize, once the rush dies down.

If that is not the case, then i do not have knowledge about the cause behing this peak, did something different happen in the Switch department? While i do understand your concerns, these market places are entirely player driven, which is also a greedy practice; "Let them sort out, we'll take no responsibility."

I lost my faith in DE, they don't try to be good. They are just acting to look good. And the faces we meet at Youtube are not at fault, there is always a bigger fish, so possibly the top dog management is to be blamed.

I still stand by my statement, drop tables should be made in a way that it is not exhausting to the player, to receive meaningless rewards, which can't even be Sold for credit (at that point you probably grinded enough Index, so meaningless again). If DE is really set to play the Good developers, we would have seen many improvements to ease the grind, but we are getting more and more boring and mindless grind islands. And while they indeed do try to merge content islands, what i've seen from lurking on the forums is, that the majority of the players with coherent arguments are against it, or dislike it.

We still need drop table 2.0. Or is that 3.0 now?

[randomoddguy]

26 minutes ago, Laveillon said:

Thank you for pointing that out, it is indeed almost 4 times the price. But it is just a peak, i dare to say the market prices will stabilize, once the rush dies down.

If that is not the case, then i do not have knowledge about the cause behing this peak, did something different happen in the Switch department? While i do understand your concerns, these market places are entirely player driven, which is also a greedy practice; "Let them sort out, we'll take no responsibility."

I lost my faith in DE, they don't try to be good. They are just acting to look good. And the faces we meet at Youtube are not at fault, there is always a bigger fish, so possibly the top dog management is to be blamed.

I still stand by my statement, drop tables should be made in a way that it is not exhausting to the player, to receive meaningless rewards, which can't even be Sold for credit (at that point you probably grinded enough Index, so meaningless again). If DE is really set to play the Good developers, we would have seen many improvements to ease the grind, but we are getting more and more boring and mindless grind islands. And while they indeed do try to merge content islands, what i've seen from lurking on the forums is, that the majority of the players with coherent arguments are against it, or dislike it.

We still need drop table 2.0. Or is that 3.0 now?

Those aren't switch players. It's that high because when the platform save transfer became a thing a bunch of PC players decided to be cheeky and teleport over into the switch servers with rare and exotic loot that had literally never been available on that platform. Ash Prime being the biggest offender: Their goal was to jack up prices due to the 100% lack of competition. They succeeded. 

And yes, my point is it's outlandishly hypocritical to accuse DE of anything even with a passing resemblance to greed with the way the trade chat behaves.

[Laveillon]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)randomoddguy said:

Those aren't switch players. It's that high because when the platform save transfer became a thing a bunch of PC players decided to be cheeky and teleport over into the switch servers with rare and exotic loot that had literally never been available on that platform. Ash Prime being the biggest offender: Their goal was to jack up prices due to the 100% lack of competition. They succeeded. 

And yes, my point is it's outlandishly hypocritical to accuse DE of anything even with a passing resemblance to greed with the way the trade chat behaves.

Well, in the end, players bought platinum, which translates money into their pocket, driven by player greed. I can't recall the exact numbers, but Ember Prime set had a similar thing in the past, now it's stabilized.

Vault reponenings are akin to the way Gacha games handle banners. Having timed exclusive items are also a point in time which pumps active player numbers. Time- and resource gating is a disgusting practice, but the playerbase is slowly losing power over companies, simply by being content with it.

[randomoddguy]

1 minute ago, Laveillon said:

Well, in the end, players bought platinum, which translates money into their pocket, driven by player greed. I can't recall the exact numbers, but Ember Prime set had a similar thing in the past, now it's stabilized.

Vault reponenings are akin to the way Gacha games handle banners. Having timed exclusive items are also a point in time which pumps active player numbers. Time- and resource gating is a disgusting practice, but the playerbase is slowly losing power over companies, simply by being content with it.

The reason for that is actually so that the pool of relics won't be diluted by 500 or so prime items making it nearly impossible to get enough to get all the parts for something. Gacha games have similar 'banners' yes but they don't last anywhere NEAR the time they do here. The only reason you would buy that is if you really wanted the plat. You'd have to seriously take your sweet ass time to fail to just farm up some pieces by then.

[Laveillon]

To also address the original post, sorry for spamming with slightly related replies.

We should voice and request drop table reworks. Don't have to be silent about it, but we must be respectful. Yelling and cursing will breed more hatred, if DE is still aiming to be the good guy devs, soon it shall be heard.

Can i say, that we all lift together?

[randomoddguy]

1 minute ago, Laveillon said:

To also address the original post, sorry for spamming with slightly related replies.

We should voice and request drop table reworks. Don't have to be silent about it, but we must be respectful. Yelling and cursing will breed more hatred, if DE is still aiming to be the good guy devs, soon it shall be heard.

Can i say, that we all lift together?

For some things, yes. The granum void drop tables are honestly PERFECTLY fine. As someone who very recently bothered to farm up everything in the pool it did not take long at all. Also its a fun game mode, which helps.

[Laveillon]

Just now, (NSW)randomoddguy said:

The reason for that is actually so that the pool of relics won't be diluted by 500 or so prime items making it nearly impossible to get enough to get all the parts for something. Gacha games have similar 'banners' yes but they don't last anywhere NEAR the time they do here. The only reason you would buy that is if you really wanted the plat. You'd have to seriously take your sweet ass time to fail to just farm up some pieces by then.

Think outside of the box, we could have a different/another way to obtain them, not necessarily new. Tower keys were outdated and now we have relics, which feels obsolete too now. And these things shouldn't be a separate content island. I am not a developer, so i'll rather not throw ideas around needlessly.

So it doesn't have to be dilution, nor separation. But rather another layer on top of something. Yes, we have layered grind, but we can farm multiple things in one mission.

[randomoddguy]

3 minutes ago, Laveillon said:

Think outside of the box, we could have a different/another way to obtain them, not necessarily new. Tower keys were outdated and now we have relics, which feels obsolete too now. And these things shouldn't be a separate content island. I am not a developer, so i'll rather not throw ideas around needlessly.

So it doesn't have to be dilution, nor separation. But rather another layer on top of something. Yes, we have layered grind, but we can farm multiple things in one mission.

Nyx Prime and Valkyr Prime have been permanently unvaulted. They can be farmed at any time via railjack bonus caches. (The white optional objective marker in corpus missions.) There's a ton of other stuff in that loot pool though so it'll take a while. On the other hand there's a lot of rare and exotic stuff in that loot pool.

[Laveillon]

6 hours ago, Laveillon said:

Think outside of the box, we could have a different/another way to obtain them, not necessarily new.

Would you look at that, the patch notes just dropped what i was thinking about.

[randomoddguy]

If anything I'd say what needs rethinking as to its loot is Eidolons. Arcanes are very strong, but there's both so many of them in the loot pool and also you need so many copies of any of them to get anywhere that you'll need to kill an untold number of kaiju before you get any real mileage out of them. Which is a problem, since fighting them AT ALL can only be done 1/3rd of the time and you only have a realistic shot at it toward the start of that portion of the cycle.

Comparatively, stuff like Granum void is really no problem at all in terms of the drop pool. I got every single thing from it in like a couple hours.

[Spark_Daddy]

On 2021-11-04 at 3:14 PM, Leqesai said:

Warframe is all about the grind.
 

DE: Changes Amps, RJ, and NM requirements to be less grindy. 

Slowly, DE is realizing that people who have real lives can't just farm 24/7 for several weeks on end. 

No, Warframe is about having fun and is a power fantasy Co-Op/PvE focused game.  Yes, RNG still needs to be a thing, but certain items are such a royal pain to get that people with money end up just buying them on the market, and people who can't afford to blow money on Plat (Or the fact some items CANT be bought on the market like Atmo Systems), get stonewalled and either drop the game or, hopefully, end up doing other things in the game that isn't killing their sanity.

Atmo Systems for example are a horrible grind. I quite Warframe for two years over that S#&$, and it's STILL a problem. Thank god the Necramech stuff as least is a guaranteed drop.  But lowering the costs of Amps isn't that much of a help when you need standing to get to the Fortuna amps that are worth using, which is blocked by the Atmo Systems grind. And you can' only buy them at the rank of "Hand" with Vox, which, guess what, requires atmo systems for the rank up. 

It's not fun, it's pure frustration.