Knockdown Recovery And (Relatively) Useless Warframe Mods

[ROSING]

First of all knockdown recovery.

Because, like, seriously, this should have been resolved a long time ago.

Remember several months ago when we told DE that knockdown recovery made us look like old men? Then they gave us a mod for it and people continued to joke about it until it faded away?

Can we please bring this back up again?

Personally, I think there is an issue with having abilities such as blocking and knockdown recovery augmented only through mods. A mod slot on a warframe is valuable space, and it is simply not worth putting Handspring on when in its place you could have used Continuity or Focus because such things are much more necessary later in game. It's not that things like parry or reflection or handspring are not useful, they simply aren't as useful.

That being said, I think that they are important and should be there, especially quick knockdown recovery, which I think should be an inherent skill for all frames, like a quick tap of the space bar upon knockdown like in Jedi Knight Jedi Outcast.

Failing that, or also alongside of that I think one should be able to fire their weapon once knocked down, sort of like the bleedout phase. Like upon falling and then pressing the fire button one goes into the bleedout animation, but once done firing you'd be able to recover (perhaps not as quickly as a spacebar tap). These would allow smoother combat especially when dealing with these situations, and the latter idea would also make the mod Provoked more viable.

Yet Provoked, like parry and reflection, is a mod that simply isn't as useful. SEGWAY TO...

A possible fix to this: insert 1 or two new mod slots with points SEPARATE from the other mod points specifically for abilities like this, and give them a different classification from other mods, kind of like auras, but maybe call them Skills or something. That would allow greater customization and you wouldn't have to sacrifice a more vital mod for those mods.

These skill mods should include, IMO: Acrobat, Handspring(if not made an inherent skill),Heavy Impact, Intruder, Maglev, parry, Provoked, Reflection, Reflex Guard, Retribution, Shock Absorbers, Sure Footed, and Undying Will.

TL;DR: please review and revamp certain Warframe Mods and make them separate from the others, and for the love of god, please address knockdown recovery.

Let's not have this subject die down until it is fixed properly this time.

Edited November 8, 2013 by ROSING

[Arlayn]

first off... symbols annoying me

 

secondly push the enter button... I can't read that. Its a cluster of words that my eyes can't focus on.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Arlayn

[ROSING]

Arlayn, on 07 Nov 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

first off... symbols annoying me

secondly push the enter button... I can't read that. Its a cluster of words that my eyes can't focus on.

I did, but the stupid thing for some reason turned my original post into this mish mash format. nvm it's fixed now.

[Arlayn]

Now I can read and comment

 

1. Melee mods such as the block should have been equipped to the melee weapons. Since most mods on the melee weapons don't make much of a difference anyway.

 

2. Intruder looks like a thing for PS4 players since they have a controller and all.

 

3. Maglev, and the knockdown recovery mod are abit much. No one wants extra slide, and the recovery takes up WAAAAAAAY too many spots to be even close to remotely useful.

 

4. We dropped it because currently its hopeless to talk about it. We talked, and talked, and talked for months... I think its best we leave these mods as is, and wait for them to release the mods we want in the mean time. Think of these mods as extra dohickies for kicks. Just something on the side a noob will pick up, and play with. Who knows, maybe someone likes it.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Arlayn

[Dead_Rabbits]

inb4 knockdown recovery aura.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

They said they do not want a 2-class mod system, so there you go. Also, you're in the wrong subforum.

[Talinoth]

It's a real problem actually. Knockdowns like that should certainly *disrupt* you, but they shouldn't leave you completely incapacitated for such a long time.

 

They really take the fluidity out of the combat. What would be more acceptable (imho) is if you could use your roll or jump key to get your frame back onto it's feet faster, or perhaps once you're on the floor you can (as has been suggested) shoot in that seemingly endless period of being on the floor.

 

Slapping on absurdly space-wasting mods to try and fix the issue doesn't really cut it. It just doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth. You shouldn't have to use a mod for your space ninja to be as agile as well, a space ninja. Being able to do an ukemi type maneuver, a breakfall, would be really nice.

 

The fact that Grineer Heavies can almost always knock you down unless you abuse invincibility frames (awesome if you're Loki for example, but gg wp anybody who has abilities with no cast times), no matter how well you dodge, because of that ridiculous unblockable AoE shockwave that leaves you defenseless for 3 years really exacerbates the problem.

 

The biggest problem, is that a lot of the game appears to be balanced around this kind of knockdown effect. Enemies who can't incapacitate you or keep you immobilised somehow get ripped apart by guys with absurdly powerful guns that tear through enemy hp like warm butter. If it wasn't for the fact that a Grineer Napalm or Toxic Ancient is capable of knocking you down and taking a S#&$ on your face, the game would be far, far too easy.

 

TL;DR - Make knockdowns less cancer-inducing, but in exchange make later enemies slightly tougher.

Edited November 8, 2013 by PygmyPower

[ROSING]

Arlayn, on 07 Nov 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

4. We dropped it because currently its hopeless to talk about it. We talked, and talked, and talked for months... I think its best we leave these mods as is, and wait for them to release the mods we want in the mean time. Think of these mods as extra dohickies for kicks. Just something on the side a noob will pick up, and play with. Who knows, maybe someone likes it.

But I mean that's the thing, I really think that these "dohickies" are things that make the game more interesting and allow you to personalize your combat style, and I think we should have some way to be able to use them alongside with the more important mods. I don't think we are so far away from a solution, and I want this thread to hopefully allow us to reach one that will work.

PygmyPower, on 07 Nov 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

They really take the fluidity out of the combat. What would be more acceptable (imho) is if you could use your roll or jump key to get your frame back onto it's feet faster, or perhaps once you're on the floor you can (as has been suggested) shoot in that seemingly endless period of being on the floor.

The fact that Grineer Heavies can almost always knock you down unless you abuse invincibility frames (awesome if you're Loki for example, but gg wp anybody who has abilities with no cast times), no matter how well you dodge, because of that ridiculous unblockable AoE shockwave that leaves you defenseless for 3 years really exacerbates the problem.

The biggest problem, is that a lot of the game appears to be balanced around this kind of knockdown effect. Enemies who can't incapacitate you or keep you immobilised somehow get ripped apart by guys with absurdly powerful guns that tear through enemy hp like warm butter. If it wasn't for the fact that a Grineer Napalm or Toxic Ancient is capable of knocking you down and taking a S#&$ on your face, the game would be far, far too easy.

That's what I was advocating for, primarily. And I agree that knockdown plays a pivotal role in this game, and that's why I think we should really let players have some way to combat this effect or at least have a back-up plan for it that doesn't involved you giving up Fast Deflection.

[Seanjuju]

Leaving things the way they are isn't going to work. I really feel that some mods should have been introduced on a trial basis.

 

The parry system and every mod associated with it is a joke.

 

Scavenging/Radar mods aren't needed because there's nothing to find really. They should become sentinel mods.  

 

Sanctuary should mirror max shield value of the owner's frame or just reduce % damage taken for everyone inside.

 

Bleed-Out mods (Undying Will/ Provoked) don't fit into the current mod system

 

Retribution is a joke

 

Elemental Resistance mods don't fit into the current mod system

 

Warframe mods should only drop from bosses. Maybe 2 or 3 at a time. Each boss should only drop mods for 2 frames except the first which should drop the 3 starters' mods.

 

Warframe mods don't need to be in the transmutation system.

 

Aura mods need to look different from other mods and should have their own tab when upgrading. They shouldn't be mixed in with frame mods.

 

Acrobat doesn't have much use unless many tile sets are going to require very long wall running sections.

 

Knockdown resist steam rolls shock absorbers and recovery mods but recovery is fine for a dual stat. .Maybe frames should recover according to run speed idk.    

 

I like your idea but the mod system has 99 problems.

 

Coming Soon. Mod System 2.0.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Seanjuju

[Sixty5]

Constitution is what you are looking for. Recovery + Power duration.

[Relkin]

Yeah knockdowns still suck :( 

 

It is an issue I think is worth bringing up again...it just makes zero sense to have mods like sure footed instead of QTE or something.  They have an opportunity to expand the gameplay with a simple measure of adding a brief period during the enemy KD animation or during our fall animation where we could hit a button and an arrow key for direction to maybe not resist but turn that fall down (very un-ninja like) into a sweet backflip or something (very ninja like).

 

It's not free since you'll have to be quick enough and will need situational awareness since it is very easy to lose track of sneaky heavies and crap at times when things get chaotic so there is a certain amount of skill factoring into it which makes it all the better...I just can't comprehend why DE refuses to address the matter in a reasonable way. 

 

EDIT: With that said, I also can't understand why DE adds so many melee weapons and mods when they obviously hate melee as we can easily see from instagib poison toxic ancients as well as  auto stuns & knockdowns from shields/heavies as well as forced movement with melee attacks which forces you to dance.  Oh, and zero melee feedback (no indicators beyond easily obscured numbers that your melee made contact with the enemy)....it is strange.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Relkin

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

^^That's a Segway...

Edited November 8, 2013 by sushidubya

[Mak_Gohae]

This game isnt difficult, you dont need 900 shields and 750 health, put those mods on and have some fun.

I did.

[Penthos]

You wanna know the easiest way to fix this?  Make it so our alleged space ninjas don't get thrown flat on their backs like fish on the bottom of a boat and make it so they can attempt a recovery like a handspring or something.

[Acos]

A problem in general, I think, is that we don't really have enough slot space for warframes in general. Weapons are generally uninspired, so modding them is a bit more simple; you add damage things, maybe reload, but nothing terribly crazy. Warframe slots on the other hand really define how we can approach the game, and there's so many "you really need to have this" mods to go through that by the time we get done with the basics there's not really anything left to diversify our playing experience. This is demonstrated time and time again where upon adding new warframe specific mods to the game the playerbase responds with a resounding "oh that's neat, but I don't have room for it". 

At the same time, giving players access to more mods inevitably leads to power creep as we both know that you and I aren't going to go iron out that parry build with more space; we're absolutely going to equip things like Focus, Rush, Blind Rage, etc. 

An idea I was toying around with is some kind of "combination" system where you could fuse mods together based on a "grade". Mods which the playerbase consider vital for playing the game would be considered 'S' grade mods which could then combine with lesser grade mods so that you could keep things like redirection on your loadout while toying around with things like laser resistance. Depending on the grade quality of your "base" mod you'd be able to attach some arbitrary number of mods to it; grade 'S' mods would be worth 5 points, so you could attach say, one grade A mod, or three grade C mods. 

Doing it this way encourages us to combine mods that aren't that impressive by themselves but add passive bonuses that help us diversify our playstyle. It also stems the obvious power creep that would result from this as you wouldn't be able to combine two grade S mods; things like focus, flow, streamline, blind rage, fleeting expertise, etc. Naturally the exact definition of what 'tier' a mod falls into would need quite a bit of debate, but I do think it's pretty obvious from looking at which mods get neglected that there is some level of priority going on. 

Then to add replayability; you'd only be able to combine a mod once all mods involved in the process are maxed out. Once you combine the mods they go back to rank 0 and require leveling up again, the cost being the summation of the two combined mods (so you might want to really think hard about combining your Blind Rage mod). 

I might also have some kind of depreciation for combining mods, like the two combined mods become 5% weaker every time you combine them or something. That's the basic idea anyway, and I don't know if it's something I'd implement right now either; player characters are kind of overpowered for the content currently available and implementing something like this undoubtedly gives us more power. That said, I do think we'll need *something* like this at some point.   

Edited November 8, 2013 by Acos

[Acos]

A less complicated more "now" approach that specifically helps out warframe mod slots would be to move our class abilities to something seperated from our warframe mods. There are a few good reasons for doing this; Passive abilities are not as "fun" as Active abilities. We constantly have discussions about "is this ability worth it" or "is this ability redundant" because we are attempting to fit in a bunch of passive mods we don't actually have room for which ultimately requires us to get rid of Active abilities that we do not consider absolutely vital.

 

While the passive abilities definitely increase our overall performance over things like, for example, Ash's Teleport, they come with the unfortunate side effect of limiting what we can actively DO during combat. I don't get to play around with Teleport and find situations where it can let me pull of new and interesting things because I decided that shield regeneration was more important. I don't have a balancing act between Well of Life, Blessing, and my Energy usage because I've decided Well of Life is too similar to Blessing, and prioritized one ability so that I could fit in something like faster sprinting speed. 

The ultimate take-away from this is that passive abilities should either be less useful than active abilities, or that passive abilities should not get in the way of active abilities. Active abilities are the large bulk of where player interaction comes in and if we are being forced to get rid of them to reach a base-line level of performance than player activity goes down and feelings of boredom set in much more rapidly. The way the system is designed right now absolutely encourages us to be less actively engaged with the game. I feel that energy is a perfectly viable way to limit power usage; passive mod slots do not need to add upon this.

Thus, I would propose then that Active abilities be sort of "inherit" things that our Warframes can do at all times (limited, of course, by the current energy system). This allows room for powers to be more redudant as they are no longer in direct competition with each other and allows for the player to developer the classes in the game in more interesting and diverse ways. 


The second idea is a bit more basic; simply add more dual mods. Unlike my earlier idea which is significantly more complicated (it requires the development of an entire new system) this is something much more basic that the development team has already demonstrated the ability to do, and simultaneously gives the development team absolute control over exactly what kind of powercreep they are letting into the game. The downside, at least compared to my previous idea, is that it allows less player customization and isn't as much fun (at least in my opinion). 

However, don't just add dual mods, but add dual mods that have things we as a playerbase consider "vital to basic gameplay" with things that are more fun to play around with such as the parry system, or sprint speed, or stamina efficiency. Let us keep our ability to have shields while also getting stupid stuff like jumping higher. If you know nobody is going to be taking laser resistence because there is never going to be room for laser resistence, pair it up with something like vitality or redirection. 

Edited November 8, 2013 by Acos

[ROSING]

A less complicated more "now" approach that specifically helps out warframe mod slots would be to move our class abilities to something seperated from our warframe mods. There are a few good reasons for doing this; Passive abilities are not as "fun" as Active abilities. We constantly have discussions about "is this ability worth it" or "is this ability redundant" because we are attempting to fit in a bunch of passive mods we don't actually have room for which ultimately requires us to get rid of Active abilities that we do not consider absolutely vital.

 

While the passive abilities definitely increase our overall performance over things like, for example, Ash's Teleport, they come with the unfortunate side effect of limiting what we can actively DO during combat. I don't get to play around with Teleport and find situations where it can let me pull of new and interesting things because I decided that shield regeneration was more important. I don't have a balancing act between Well of Life, Blessing, and my Energy usage because I've decided Well of Life is too similar to Blessing, and prioritized one ability so that I could fit in something like faster sprinting speed. 

The ultimate take-away from this is that passive abilities should either be less useful than active abilities, or that passive abilities should not get in the way of active abilities. Active abilities are the large bulk of where player interaction comes in and if we are being forced to get rid of them to reach a base-line level of performance than player activity goes down and feelings of boredom set in much more rapidly. The way the system is designed right now absolutely encourages us to be less actively engaged with the game. I feel that energy is a perfectly viable way to limit power usage; passive mod slots do not need to add upon this.

Thus, I would propose then that Active abilities be sort of "inherit" things that our Warframes can do at all times (limited, of course, by the current energy system). This allows room for powers to be more redudant as they are no longer in direct competition with each other and allows for the player to developer the classes in the game in more interesting and diverse ways. 

I think dual mods certainly help, but I think that making the specific warframe abilities have separate slots and points (which is what I think you are alluding to) works better than my original idea of having separate slots and points for specific general mods. That would allow more customization and also allow us to keep our abilities.

[Nenjin]

Personally, DE should do what every other 3rd person action fighting game does.

 

And that's build the knock down recovery into the player's base ability. It's simple. Tap sprint after being knocked down, and you roll to your feet.

 

Fighting games have done this forever and, being timing based, I don't think it would break the game. (Especially considering how, at higher levels, you're getting multi-slammed by Shields and Ancients and Heavies constantly.)

 

I'm really getting sick of getting knocked down and then every enemy within 50 meters hoses me down and I'm dead before I can even start to stand. I'd use Handspring if I found it, because I hate knockdown and the delay it causes that much. But I think recovery of that nature is something every Warframe should be able to do from day 1.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Nenjin

[ToeSama]

Personally, DE should do what every other 3rd person action fighting game does.

 

And that's build the knock down recovery into the player's base ability. It's simple. Tap sprint after being knocked down, and you roll to your feet.

 

All of this.

 

I'm of the mind that there are MANY aspects of the mod system that should be cooked into the frame's level than to be tacked into the mod system. Like, oh I don't know... Powers?

Edited November 8, 2013 by ToeSama

[Mak_Gohae]

Personally, DE should do what every other 3rd person action fighting game does.

 

And that's build the knock down recovery into the player's base ability. It's simple. Tap sprint after being knocked down, and you roll to your feet.

 

Fighting games have done this forever and, being timing based, I don't think it would break the game. (Especially considering how, at higher levels, you're getting multi-slammed by Shields and Ancients and Heavies constantly.)

 

I'm really getting sick of getting knocked down and then every enemy within 50 meters hoses me down and I'm dead before I can even start to stand. I'd use Handspring if I found it, because I hate knockdown and the delay it causes that much. But I think recovery of that nature is something every Warframe should be able to do from day 1.

 

How many third person shooters have this is the real question.

You are classifying Warframe under fighter because you get to swing a melee weapon once in a while but most of the enemies in this game are ranged enemies. This game is way more a shooter than anything else.

[Nenjin]

How many third person shooters have this is the real question.

You are classifying Warframe under fighter because you get to swing a melee weapon once in a while but most of the enemies in this game are ranged enemies. This game is way more a shooter than anything else.

 

It's about 1 step removed from Devil May Cry and half a dozen other games.

[Relkin]

Irregardless if this is classified as a TPS or TPA game I really don't think anybody here is against player interaction resulting in significantly reduced recovery speeds.

[ReiganCross]

What i love about this subject is that we hear them saying "No, we don't want to add a cover system because it would make the combat less fluent and dynamic."... Then they have us knocked down by anything that could possibly knock us over... Hell, where else have you seen laser doors that knocks you down on your asses?

 

It mainly renders the point of "No cover system to make combat dynamic" pointless and makes DE look like they are bsing us because of Dark Sector traumas.

[Mak_Gohae]

It's about 1 step removed from Devil May Cry and half a dozen other games.

 

That step is significant.

 

What i love about this subject is that we hear them saying "No, we don't want to add a cover system because it would make the combat less fluent and dynamic."... Then they have us knocked down by anything that could possibly knock us over... Hell, where else have you seen laser doors that knocks you down on your asses?

 

It mainly renders the point of "No cover system to make combat dynamic" pointless and makes DE look like they are bsing us because of Dark Sector traumas.

 

You are supposed to be avoiding those knockdowns to keep the fluid combat going.

 

Oh, and shoot the cameras.

[lautalocos]

Coming Soon. Mod System 2.0.

correction: mod system 3.0