(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Little bit of Spoilers for The New War As the title suggest, what if the risk of failing a challenge wasn't exactly death or failing the mission, rather just a delay that you are eventually garaunteed to get through? Why I'm saying this After observing some of the feedback about The New War quest, I noticed that some people loved the extra bit of challenge the archons added, while other people hated it and actually found it to be too difficult. I'm one who loved it but I can understand what it's like to have content that's made to be too complicated or not of a style you like anymore (I've experienced it with assassin's creed), So I thought of something that may work as a nice middle ground, and that's using difficulty to slow down the player's efficiency of completing objectives, rather than out right failing them. What exactly am I asking for An example of this idea that's already in game is the mod "Primed Sure Footed". Players have slightly weakened their movement speed or ability strength iif they choose to put this mod on.. it makes the game easier at the price of a mod slot. Getting knocked down is a threat that doesn't necessarily mean you'll die, it's more so of an annoyance that messes with the flow of combat. I think going forward that this will be a better design for enemies bringing difficulty in warframe. Where the threat isn't really death, it's just meeting your goals slower. For example: Say we have a really tanky enemy, and every time it loses 40% of its health, it will perform a 1 second wind up attack. If it lands its attack, it heals itself by 15%. However if you manage to make it miss, it's opened to a finisher that's garaunteed to kill it. Difficulty here rewards the player who overcame it, with just speed of the take down. ____ For people who have pro reflexes, they get a win, and for those who don't they have something to practice on that isn't going to act as blockade from the rest of the games content. So they still get a win to some degree. What do you guys think? Is it a middle ground that you would be happy with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: An example of this idea that's already in game is the mod "Primed Sure Footed". Players have slightly weakened their movement speed or ability strength iif they choose to put this mod on.. Makes glad that I went with Primed Shred Instead... That being Said.... Do you even have Primed Sure Footed.... Do you use it yourself ? 🤔 1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: For example: Say we have a really tanky enemy, with a 0.5 second wind up attack. If it lands its attack, it heals itself by 15%. However if you manage to make it miss, it's opened to a finisher that's garaunteed to kill it. Difficulty here rewards the player who overcame it, with just speed of the take down. I like the idea.... I'm just afraid of the execution... In the New War Quest I was Taking Damage despite clearly rolling out of the way.... Based on the Knockback Radius on the Staticor and Akarius I think It it's important to make sure the Hit Detection is fair.... No Phantom Hitboxes Please !!! 0.5 Seconds is alil Harsh for something that isn't a Fighting Game.... I mean even the Red Kanji Attacks in Sekiro give you more of a Warning than that.... But then again Sekiro requires different Responses to different Attacks so it makes sense for it to have longer Warnings (Your Ability to react to something gets worse if you have to react to other things at the same time).... As long as we only have to look out for one attack then 0.5 Seconds is fine I guess.... Just make sure it's paired with an equally Distinct Telegraph... Overheads in Granblu Fantasy Versus have a Bright Shimmer that makes them unmistakable and thus they are easier to block.... I can't Block them but atleast I get 15 Frames to prepare for the pain coming my way... 1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: For people who have pro reflexes, they get a win, and for those who don't they have something to practice on that isn't going to act as blockade from the rest of the games content. So they still get a win to some degree. This is a Common Misconception.... I have no proof of this but You can't actually improve your Reflexes.... It's easy to think that you can especially if you use something The Human Benchmark....to evaluate or Practice your Reaction times.... But I think a true test of your Reaction speed would be how fast you react to involuntary Stimuli... Such as loud noise or a flashing light that you aren't expecting.... In those cases your Body would literaly be reActing as Fast as it possibly could.... And I think whatever that Value is... Is your Actual Reaction Speed and it doesn't Change.... Really when you Improve your Reaction Speed in a Video Game you're not actually improving the Speed...so much as your Changing the Que that you are Reacting Too.... For Street Fighter V players who wanted to get improve their Single Hit Confirms (FGC Jargon) they would switch the que they were reacting to from the Actual Character models that may be in various States, Shapes, Colours and Sizes... To the Stun Bar at the Top Of The Screen which remains exactly the same regardless of whatever else is might change... Supposedly A 2 Time Evo Champion by the name of Momochi was among the first to start doing this and Reccomend others to try it.... The Reason why I typed all this rubbish is because this System would just Feel unfair to the people who react Slower.... And as I mentioned before... 0.5 Seconds feels Agressively Fast for anything that isn't a Fighting Game 👀.... I've been Hit by Attacks that are Twice as Slow but they still felt like Total Bull $$@$ for a variety of Reasons... Imagine being forced Be Less Efficient or even having your Time wasted just because "Genetics".... I know this sounds kinda funny and stupid but there was the Stigma for sometime that Games Developed by Arc System Works were just more advantageous for Japanese Players.... Was it true ? I don't know.... But having the The Last 5 Evo Champions being Japanese Players for every one of their Games certainly didn't help public perception that if you weren't Japanese then you Automatically wouldn't win Evo 👀 !!! And that's when they decided to switch things up with GBVS, DBFZ & BBCT..... Sorry I honestly can't be bothered to Actually Type out the Actual names of these games 😱... Learn from Arc Systems Works mistakes...don't balance your Game around the Top 1% of the most Efficient Players.... Why ? Because these players are already Getting Validation from their Speed Runs and Leader Boards.... They are locked in an Endless Competetive Cycle Of One Up'smanship and that's more than enough Challenge I think.... If anybody Disagrees then ask them to post their Fastest Time.... 😝 2 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: What do you guys think? Is it a middle ground that you would be happy with? As I said.... That depends entirely on the Execution.... Crappy Hitboxes and Misguided Balancing is just going to cause Mass Hatred from the Community... Unless if they can do What Devil May Cry did... The Beauty of Devil May Cry is that it's Style System Contextualises the other wise Arbitrary Score you get Both During and at the End of a mission.... Further more.... It Does not evaluate this Score against anyone else.... Meaning you get to Feel Like a Total bad Ass even though in Reality you would only rank 262566th Place on The Global LeaderBoards.... I think that's what's really missing from Warframe... Not only is your Performance Not Evaluated... It's Also Not Contextualised or Even Rewarded in alot of Cases.... Did you Destroy All The Reinforcement Beacons in the Profit Taker Fight ? Great !! Here's your Big Pile Of Nothing !!! No wonder nobody wants to play Support It's a thankless and quite Frankly Useless job 🤣 !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 10 hours ago, Lutesque said: Makes glad that I went with Primed Shred Instead... That being Said.... Do you even have Primed Sure Footed.... Do you use it yourself ? 🤔 I do rarely, there's this Steelpath infested defense mission I do for Steel Essence where knockdown gets hectic, it's nearly spammed 24/7 from ancients and I can never tell when an ancient is about to grab me up from behind. Annoys my soul It also stops explosive weapons from staggering you. So like while I could just jump and aim glide, sometimes I like to get a lil lazy and shoot it closer to myself. Especially when fighting infested. 10 hours ago, Lutesque said: like the idea.... I'm just afraid of the execution... In the New War Quest I was Taking Damage despite clearly rolling out of the way.... Based on the Knockback Radius on the Staticor and Akarius I think It it's important to make sure the Hit Detection is fair.... No Phantom Hitboxes Please !!! 0.5 Seconds is alil Harsh for something that isn't a Fighting Game.... I mean even the Red Kanji Attacks in Sekiro give you more of a Warning than that.... But then again Sekiro requires different Responses to different Attacks so it makes sense for it to have longer Warnings (Your Ability to react to something gets worse if you have to react to other things at the same time).... As long as we only have to look out for one attack then 0.5 Seconds is fine I guess.... Just make sure it's paired with an equally Distinct Telegraph... Overheads in Granblu Fantasy Versus have a Bright Shimmer that makes them unmistakable and thus they are easier to block.... I can't Block them but atleast I get 15 Frames to prepare for the pain coming my way... Only part in the quest with timed attacks that I noticed was near the end of tenshins part. Every other part I hid behind a tree, I don't think warframe counts rolls for avoiding damage, it just reduces enemy accuracy. Only thing rolls are good for in Warframe atm is avoiding knockdowns And yeah, I'll change Reaction time to 1 second. 10 hours ago, Lutesque said: Really when you Improve your Reaction Speed in a Video Game you're not actually improving the Speed...so much as your Changing the Que that you are Reacting Too.... I'd have to see it for myself to. I think you're somewhat right, there's a limit on fast someone can react but I think there's a sort of normal time. Like you said, turning on a light and seeing how fast someone notices it, shouldn't take longer than a second I'd argue It would just be noticing that que that becomes the issue then. Instead of a light, it would be observing your screen. Looking for certain movements of certain and very noticeable enemies. But yeah I'm in a little agreeance here. 10 hours ago, Lutesque said: Crappy Hitboxes and Misguided Balancing is just going to cause Mass Hatred from the Community... Unless if they can do What Devil May Cry did... The Beauty of Devil May Cry is that it's Style System Contextualises the other wise Arbitrary Score you get Both During and at the End of a mission.... Further more.... It Does not evaluate this Score against anyone else.... Meaning you get to Feel Like a Total bad Ass even though in Reality you would only rank 262566th Place on The Global LeaderBoards.... I think that's what's really missing from Warframe... Not only is your Performance Not Evaluated... It's Also Not Contextualised or Even Rewarded in alot of Cases.... Yea I think warframe can nail it. Anytime I press the roll button when an infested ancient is about to grab me, I seem to never get knocked down. Along with doing it with moas. As for the performance ranking, I used to think warframe needed it to but I have no clue how it could work out. I'd hate to be ranked by damage or kills because certain warframes become even less valuable, headshots aren't really good because some players like using explosive weapons, weapon combos would be lit but kill stealing would become more of an annoyance It's why everytime I think of the ranking system idea, I immediately discard it. I keep finding too many negatives. The only idea I've come up with so far is judging players based on activity and the level of enemies they have defeated. Only 1 where I feel most people can enjoy and won't feel excluded by the weapons they use or allies they have on their team. And recieve rewards for it I'll add in some changes, thanks for your time and thought out feedback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 8 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Yea I think warframe can nail it. Anytime I press the roll button when an infested ancient is about to grab me, I seem to never get knocked down. Along with doing it with moas. Well yes.... But they Still Tag you.... Shockwave MoA's can still knock you into Nullifiers or into Reset Pits and Getting Tagged by Toxic Ancients and Ancient Disruptors is still just as Dangerous.... 8 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: As for the performance ranking, I used to think warframe needed it to but I have no clue how it could work out. I'd hate to be ranked by damage or kills because certain warframes become even less valuable, headshots aren't really good because some players like using explosive weapons, weapon combos would be lit but kill stealing would become more of an annoyance Well overwatch somehow Found a way.... But that $@#& seems like it would too expensive to implement 👀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quxier Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 20 hours ago, Lutesque said: Did you Destroy All The Reinforcement Beacons in the Profit Taker Fight ? Great !! Here's your Big Pile Of Nothing !!! I've been farming Toroids with 2x booster. In first ~15 minutes I got 10. Enemies in those 15 minutes were weak (no problem of killing them). Playing another 30 minutes, with much stronger enemies and I've gotten freaking 2. Yeah. Freaking 2! On 2022-01-03 at 2:33 AM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: For example: Say we have a really tanky enemy, with a 0.5 second wind up attack. If it lands its attack, it heals itself by 15%. However if you manage to make it miss, it's opened to a finisher that's garaunteed to kill it. Difficulty here rewards the player who overcame it, with just speed of the take down. I like Prince of Persia 4 where every time you die: - enemy gets some health back - you get reseructed It makes game much more streamlined. You don't have to load & do some stuffs every time you die. Games don't have to artificially increase game length. Some game could use such systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 53 minutes ago, quxier said: I like Prince of Persia 4 where every time you die: - enemy gets some health back - you get reseructed It makes game much more streamlined. You don't have to load & do some stuffs every time you die. Games don't have to artificially increase game length. Some game could use such systems. I liked this alot too.... Apparently it's an unpopular Oppinion 👀 !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 4, 2022 Author Share Posted January 4, 2022 8 hours ago, Lutesque said: Well yes.... But they Still Tag you.... Shockwave MoA's can still knock you into Nullifiers or into Reset Pits and Getting Tagged by Toxic Ancients and Ancient Disruptors is still just as Dangerous.... Well overwatch somehow Found a way.... But that $@#& seems like it would too expensive to implement 👀 Yea they still tag you, idk, gotta see it. Maybe the enemy that uses its wind up attack doesn't continue to aim at you. Like the moment it activates it, it will commit to attacking that location, so you won't necessarily have to roll, any movement trick can get you out the way. Or maybe it just uses a grounded attack meaning any jump will save you from getting hit. Also I see performance ranking working in overwatch because it's a challenging game by it being pvp alone, so achieving those stats is really special but in warframe not so much. Imagine competing for top damage dealt against a Saryn, or most health healed against a Wisp. Just isn't really fun as you'll get dominated. Also depends on your allies, if you got some weak players you'll get loads of healing and kills, stronger ones, lol. It would be a fight against your team. DE mentioned adding a devil trigger to the game. Maybe that could be used for rewarding performance. Save an allies life, feel your devil trigger meter by 50% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 1 minute ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Yea they still tag you, idk, gotta see it. Maybe the enemy that uses its wind up attack doesn't continue to aim at you. It Definitely Does.... I literally had this Happen to me while Farming Mutagen Samples.... Ancients and Scorpions don't Miss.... They only fail to tag you if you happened to out of Range when the Hook finally Flies out. 3 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Also I see performance ranking working in overwatch because it's a challenging game by it being pvp alone, Apparently there's a mode where you go Up Against Bots.... This is technically not the official way to play the game but it's frequented by a Surprising amount of players... 👀.... Turns out playing Against Real People Is Hard... 5 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: DE mentioned adding a devil trigger to the game. Maybe that could be used for rewarding performance. Save an allies life, feel your devil trigger meter by 50% This was Steve's Idea wasn't it ? 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 4, 2022 Author Share Posted January 4, 2022 6 hours ago, quxier said: like Prince of Persia 4 where every time you die: - enemy gets some health back - you get reseructed It makes game much more streamlined. You don't have to load & do some stuffs every time you die. Games don't have to artificially increase game length. Some game could use such systems 5 hours ago, Lutesque said: I liked this alot too.... Apparently it's an unpopular Oppinion 👀 !!! I'd be a little upset about it in a story based game too tho cause those games already only last a few days to a week. I'd like to restart if I mess up in them, but i guess if there's a restart from checkpoint option, it would make it all okay with me But back on topic, the system with prince of Persia is basically the idea here. Slight set backs as consequences instead of restarting an entire fight. Helps keep warframe's chill nature, and while also giving players who want challenge something to do. Glad to see yall like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 4, 2022 Author Share Posted January 4, 2022 11 minutes ago, Lutesque said: It Definitely Does I know I mean gotta see if DE knows how to have it not tag you. 11 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Apparently there's a mode where you go Up Against Bots.... This is technically not the official way to play the game but it's frequented by a Surprising amount of players... 👀.... Turns out playing Against Real People Is Hard... Interesting, still I think same issue applies with challenge. Their defenses are more like how ours was in the new war quest as drifter, game is challenging being so weak so the stats are more special. Normal Warframe however, people really stop pushing themselves after a certain point. So the stats never become special. 11 minutes ago, Lutesque said: This was Steve's Idea wasn't it ? Yea devil trigger I think, I remember Geoff talking about reworking melee combat and adding a form of trigger too a little bit before new war dropped. Still in the works I believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 4, 2022 Author Share Posted January 4, 2022 28 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Apparently there's a mode where you go Up Against Bots.... This is technically not the official way to play the game but it's frequented by a Surprising amount of players... 👀.... Turns out playing Against Real People Is Hard... For it to work in warframe we'd need an actual challenging game mode like eidolon hunting. Challenge is playing your role perfectly to the point where you do 4x3 or 5x3 a night. Some stats showcasing how much damage a player deals to eidolons or something would then be very special because it's a challenging mode and you need that damage. Normal warframe however, it would be rather toxic. Nobodies really trying to get top damage, even if you were to care it would suck because certain warframes outclass others by long shots. Like long story short, I like to play as Frost and use my Quellor, I would like to get top stats in something like damage but it would suck against a Mesa or Nuke Equinox using a probocis cernos and what not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quxier Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 33 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: I'd like to restart if I mess up in them, but i guess if there's a restart from checkpoint option, it would make it all okay with me In case of PoP4 there were saves (limited but it was probably like 20). Game being lineal so there is no real need to restart (unless you get tired of particular boss or something). But you know that already: 35 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: But back on topic, the system with prince of Persia is basically the idea here. Slight set backs as consequences instead of restarting an entire fight. Helps keep warframe's chill nature, and while also giving players who want challenge something to do. It's good to mention it to others. For games with "decisions", there had to be some checkpoints or saves. 6 hours ago, Lutesque said: Apparently it's an unpopular Oppinion 👀 !!! I don't think they hate this mechanic per se. What I read is they don't difficulty. I still remember some last boss (or it was 2nd from last), massive spoiler.... maybe (I don't remember names): Spoiler Empress of time where they bullet spongy. Even with upgrades I didn't liked those fights. Few bad moves and start over. In POP4 there were less enemies. You can even (mini spoiler) Spoiler finish certain enemies before they appear so there is even less fight for some of us. I can see how they can upgrade this mechanic however they went Assassin creed route (I don't know why) so we won't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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