2wentyThre3 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Arbitration Defence target AI sucks. Like, really bad. These guys jump from player to player intermediately and in random cycles. Players leave them fighting packs of mobs because of their ignorance or flippant disregard of the mode and the way the defence target moves. Players bullet jump in four different directions to nuke everything, leave too much distance between team mates even on the smallest maps and BAM before you hit wave 20 the guy is nearly dead and everyone leaves.Wait so that's a player problem, surely?Sure can be. But there is literally nothing that explains this targets movement to people. So, people either know of it and don't care or they actually don't understand how the play mode works. And given that when I ask people if they know what they are doing because of the state of play, people leave on the nearest opportunity, I'd say it's lack of understanding. No one gives me abuse when I ask and very rarely some people even ask what needs to be done or how we can do better. I know this reaction, it's like when people in something like World of Warcraft are asked if they know raid tactics, they go quiet thinking that if they lurk at the back no one will notice... only here they take the first opportunity to jump ship. I don't ask to be spiteful or mean, I just want to know how far they want to push things.So again, players are the issue, why should DE care? Because running a valuable targets AI on what is effectively the pet AI is an issue. It looks for trouble, gets itself into it and gets melted. There is nothing that can be done to help it. No amount of player skill can account for a 1-3 second lapse of coordination at later waves that gets the target killed - That is a blinding oversight in a mission mode where you can go to level cap in every other mission mode in the Arbitration bracket. And it's not even comparable. All other modes rely on player skill or preparation to large extent. The target will literally get stuck on walls, doors, random bits of terrain and get nuked. I have legitimately never seen a defence PUG go beyond Wave30 (Okay, I have but it's only in planned sessions or when people are really co-ordinated)- They know the target is a liability - yet in other modes have seen random PUGs go endless. And it isn't the players, I've met the same players or stayed with the same players from previous runs.Do you have a (possible) solution? If the target WALKED it's own path I think this would help massively. Don't tether it to players and turn it's aggression down. It wanting to jump round the map is it's downfall every time, it almost teleports large distances, locks onto Eximus units and stands in front them getting hosed by everything in 10yds. It has no self preservation precepts at all. Maybe give it an ability or a sentinel or better shield gating? Force players to walk round with the target effectively acting as personal security because it's much easier to see who your team players are and take responsibility for the targets defence if it isn't diving around with "That" guy who just wants to do w/e without care for the mission type or people wanting to play the mission. If it isn't jumping to "That" guy and has a somewhat predictable movement pattern, it's less likely to get splattered by LvL130 Grineer covering fire in the 1-3seconds it takes for you to get to it. Honestly, because I always try to be honest, in it's current state I hate Arbitration Defense. I cringe every time I see it. But at my current state of play, Arbitrations and Steel path are the only challenges left. So I grit my teeth and get on with it. But... Challenges should be skill based and your build decisions should be put to the test. Being RnG'd out of mission rewards because some stupid AI went and put it's mouth over the barrel of an Ogris feels bad. Anyway that's my take on it, let me know if you have anything to add or want to set me straight.***TLDR: Why should Arbitration Defence missions and our rewards from them rely on RnG lemming AI that cannot tell a wall from it's own Judicial head piece. I find a players actions sometimes compound on this through gameplay decisions that end up harming the group. Surely this AI needs it's own precepts?*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Don't Play Arbitration.... You can Aquire All The Rewards Through Trading.... It's the 2nd Most Toxic Game mode after Eidolon Hunts... 👀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2wentyThre3 Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 Le 25/01/2022 à 19:23, Lutesque a dit : Don't Play Arbitration.... You can Aquire All The Rewards Through Trading.... It's the 2nd Most Toxic Game mode after Eidolon Hunts... 👀 IDK what you'd consider toxic, but I would say people are heightened and more prone to quitting fast, telling people to pick up their slack and just generally more irritable in the two activities you mention because of some of these reasons. Both types of events are time gated, team reliant (sort of) and offer a sense of loss if team mates don't perform. Some people want to do well or win, others... well honestly after seeing the things I've seen in these game modes, I have no idea what their intentions were, I can't even put it down to learning sometimes. I think the want to stay and do more is necessary for Arbitrations and if you don't have that need or want, IMHO it needs to be gated with some sort of lock-in. I would consider toxic behaviour in Arbitrations: Leaving early. ( Before Wave5-20 / Round1-4) Bringing loadouts with poor survivability or offering no team benefit. Not playing to the mission requirements (Jumping between Infiltration points not defending your own, not defending the mission target etc.) Not resurrecting, attempting to heal or assist teammates. Generally being a nuisance ( Standing over peoples shoulders killing what they are shooting at, activating lasers turrets in the void, AFK'ing etc.) Quite honestly more needs to be done to dissuade people from potentially wasting other peoples time. I understand Dojo's exist. I understand that the LFG tab exists. And they pretty much always have at this point. But, and this is massive, this games community has always sought to work together, even in PUGs. There's a trend of "I expect to be helped" and not "Help me help myself" creeping up and that's where things are failing - too many of those in one group always leads to a bad time. I got help learning to kill Eidolons, but I watched YT to learn the basics first for example...I guess to stay on point, the AI of the Defense target needs improving to help people having to deal with other peoples nonsense too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2wentyThre3 Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 Il y a 21 heures, Lutesque a dit : You can Aquire All The Rewards Through Trading.... Sorry, just for the record on this point: Arbitration is amazing for Endo and Kuva farming, it makes things like Excavation missions look like a joke and honestly is the best starting point for those looking to head toward Steel Path. People wanting to progress into Steel Path should really be taking things a little more seriously too I think. And for the record I'm not looking for MLG RGB pro gamers here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 25 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: IDK what you'd consider toxic, but I would say people are heightened and more prone to quitting fast, telling people to pick up their slack and just generally more irritable in the two activities you mention because of one reason. Both types of events are time gated, team reliant (sort of) and offer a sense of loss if team mates don't perform. That's Pretty Much The Definition of a Toxic Game Mode.... Tethering Nice Goodies to To Annoying Game Design Practices Involving Other Players.... 28 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: I would consider toxic behaviour in Arbitrations: Leaving early. ( Before Wave5-20 / Round1-4) I think people are well within their Right to leave whenever they want... It's not their Fault DE's netcode is Terrible... 30 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: Bringing loadouts with poor survivability or offering no team benefit. You do Realise that Arbitration is an Endo and Mod Farm right ? Ofcourse People with Rubbish Loadouts will flock to it.... They are trying to get Stronger.... 👀 32 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: Not playing to the mission requirements (Jumping between Infiltration points not defending your own, not defending the mission target etc.) That's Fair... 👍 32 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: Not resurrecting, attempting to heal or assist teammates. That's Not Fair.... Even in Regular Play DE made Reviving Allies Such a Hastle that I can't Blame anyway for leaving them for Dead.... This is Why I use Vazarin.... To minimize the Inconvenience of picking Me up when I die.... Because I have to fix this Part Of The Game myself using the Bandaids provided... 😱 35 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: Generally being a nuisance ( Standing over peoples shoulders killing what they are shooting at, activating lasers turrets in the void, AFK'ing etc.) That's Also Fair.... 👍 36 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: I got help learning to kill Eidolons, but I watched YT to learn the basics first for example... They should just Remove Eidolons.... Give The Arcanes To Star Chart Bosses.... I nominate The Sargeant for Arcane Energize.... 👀 38 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: I guess to stay on point, the AI of the Defense target needs improving to help people having to deal with other peoples nonsense too. Or they can just Remove that Operative and then just Call the Game mode what it really is.... Stationery Exterminate ,👀 !!! 11 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said: Sorry, just for the record on this point: Arbitration is amazing for Endo and Kuva farming, it makes things like Excavation missions look like a joke and honestly is the best starting point for those looking to head toward Steel Path. People wanting to progress into Steel Path should really be taking things a little more seriously too I think. And for the record I'm not looking for MLG RGB pro gamers here... Exactly.... Trade for whatever you need... Then Skip Arbitrations and go Right into Steel Path... 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 23 hours ago, Lutesque said: You do Realise that Arbitration is an Endo and Mod Farm right ? Ofcourse People with Rubbish Loadouts will flock to it.... They are trying to get Stronger.... 👀 ^ This be the issue right here It's not necessarily a game mode for challenge alone, rather a location for weak players to get stronger. It's why I was asking for a game mode that doesn't let people leave early. Like a steelpath incursion that gives extra essence but you gotta make it to the end to keep all the goodies. Gives you more than running captures There's a big enough chunk of players I see in warframe who play the game for well over 5 minutes to go for it. Especially in steelpath Void Mot, it's fascinating that I actually find random squads actually willing to play for up to an hour now. In other missions I swear it's once in a blue moon that I find it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)THE NTT Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 its not just in arbitration that the defense guys AI is stupid - its any ally you have to defend be it a regular rescue, sortie defense etc. they are perfectly happy to hang back and NOT teleport to you in a rescue and park their butt in front a grineer turret. I've seen them sit on the mines the enemies throw (the ones that flash red on the minimap before they explode, or corpus drone dropped things ). I mean they literally cop a squat right on the thing and take it up the rear. (and die of course) As for suggestions like "Don't play arbitrations" - another quality post 🙄 . And no, not all rewards from Arbitration are tradable - Vitus is not, nor are the cosmetics, decorations etc that you buy with it. and If players don't play any game mode where there is something that annoys them, they won't play the game. Suggestions to fix the annoyances are a far better alternative, and giving the Defense guy his own path was a good one - along with giving them a little common sense like "If i'm sitting on a bomb, maybe I should relocate" and "if I'm surrounded by 20 enemies, maybe running would be the prudent course of action rather than just standing there trying to face tank them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unimira Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 I farmed most of my arbitrations solo on infested defense maps, quick rounds and full controll over where target was standing. Some maps have excellent camping spots that makes enemies line up nicely (i.e. quickly), it's mostly a fight against boredom. If you want to play public I suggest taking Vazarin, it's still useful in Arbitration unlike in normal defense. Agree that AI is rubbish, seems like target is intentionally made to stand still if taking damage or enemies get close. (some twisted way to make it more difficult?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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