"Why" - Questions I have about Warframe kits

[Grav_Starstrider]

16 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Yesterday I was running ESO adding forma to Hyldrin using thermal sunder and was killing just as much as Saryns in every run I did. We have plenty of ways to speed clear. Saryn is fine.

I do 99% damage/kills most of the time I take Saryn out for a spin. And when I'm not Saryn, I have to be taking a reaaaaally well built, competitive frame, and reaaaaally try hard in order to even approach another Saryn's kill count and damage. And I see others echo that sentiment a lot. Either my experience is the outlier, or yours is, but I'm inclined to think that yours is more of an outlier than mine is.

14 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

Just embrace the fact that you can beat the entire game with Yareli and a Lato anyways.

3 hours ago, Turritopsis_Dohrnii said:

I always found Warframe awesome how you can clear so much with so many things despite it being less efficient.  

This is true and valid, but there are ways of preserving a power fantasy without making everything OP in an annoyingly inconsistent way. You have to play a Yareli Lato combo far more well-built and skillfully played than a Saryn does, to succeed at higher steel path levels and such.

16 hours ago, (PSN)adachi_2 said:

HOLY SHT DUDE THAT'S LITERALLY 2 COLLEGE ESSAYS COMBINED, how much free time do you have?

I'm passionate about the game, and I work from home at a chill job, so a decent amount of free time. In fairness, I'm not making a grandiose overarching philosophical argument. I'm just reacting to opinions after I said "this feels wrong".

15 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Well it does do 10% of enemy max health as slash damage, it's just that armor messes up everything for Grineer, and it only counts health for Corpus, who have a decent chunk of their EHP in shields instead.
Still, it would be nice if it got something like "10k true damage or 10% of enemy health, whichever is greater." Or just make the 10% it already deals be done as true damage/health drain instead of slash.
Another nice addition would be if the 40% execution counted as a parazon finisher on eligible targets (just pls don't use the parazon finisher animation, why is it so slow)

I've had my gripes about the implementation of multiple different "flavors" of melee executions, and how they don't all count for each other's potential benefits. I'm not sure how to fix the overall problem with that. For Garuda though I realized, note that dealing true % health damage prior to the instant kill calculation is in most cases gonna equate to simply raising the instant kill threshold, which doesn't actually fix the problem of level 1 lightweight enemies like butchers surviving the ability. imo it should just deal the 10k damage, or your melee damage (combo effects included), or some amount of both.

14 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

In games like Warframe, they just GO GO GO NEXT PATCH IS IN A MONTH. Then stuff gets outdated, they don't have time, there's no going back, someone different can be doing each one each time, and you end up with your "why" list! ^^

There's probably no fixing that, although personally I think they could be taking more care with new releases to ensure that they're not D.O.A. wonky or dead shortly after, particularly with Warframes.

This would be why if they're abandoning the concept of secrecy and surprises and cinematic official reveals, as we see with every Warframe and prime getting previewed/leaked via their own streams first, they should just embrace the usage of the Test Servers, and allow us to feel and test the Warframes before they commit to the final values. Yareli had to have practically all of her stats and values like, doubled, within hours and days of her initial release.

If DE wants to be fast paced and loose with their releases, they should be committed to being similarly fast paced and loose with applying tweaks and changes to the frames, and not waiting until they've been officially released for people to purchase via plat. imo

10 hours ago, shocker53 said:

You're gonna be asking this for alot of augments tbh

Oh I do. That's already my opinion on so many augments. Bandage mods.

5 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Thematic/aesthetics maybe? Different energy efficiency, different applications in different circumstance. A lot of games, have characters who have moves, where are some are way better, but have some sort of drawback, like more energy used, more risk on whiffing or missing. So the weaker powers are there for weaker enemies, or specific situations. 

Can/is it also redundant, especially if the penalties or drawbacks don't really seem to exist, energy difference isn't enough etc? In this case, yeah, I would generally agree with you, and on top of that, I personally don't really like Frosts powers and if the game was designed more for me, than say someone content and happy with Frost, I would rather see him reworked, improved. My answer above, is how I think someone designing the game and Frost, would justify such decisions. The PR answer. 

Oh and doesn't uh Frosts 1 shatter his Ice Globes? I don't remember it being very good, but the potential is there. Like Gara's 1 in a vacuum isn't that great either, and inferior to what else she can do, but it also has more functionality than just damage on its own (interactions with 4 and 2), and its also thematic to her aesthetic (but importantly compared to Frost, way more functional and useful to her overall kit). 

"A version/variant of the ability with mildly different stats/behaviors" imo makes more sense in a game like Pokemon where you can pick and choose every ability, and you usually DON'T end up with completely/mostly redundant things like flame punch vs flame wheel, or ember vs flamethrower. Gara's 1 is actually, ironically, a half decent example of what (imo) is the good way to implement such minor tweaks. I'd love to see at least two of Frost's abilities rolled into one, to reduce the feeling of redundancy. Where tap vs hold or charge results in freeze and ice wave, or ice wave and avalanche, or freeze and avalanche. Also, I see no reason why you couldn't make it so that you can target a snow globe with the snow globe ability in order to explode it instead of using freeze.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Giving some of his abilities the Augments provide, won't break him, or see a surge of popularity (in my eyes) so it would be fine. 

I hope the other reworked augments are spicier! 

Mood, for many things.

[Turritopsis_Dohrnii]

3 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

This is true and valid, but there are ways of preserving a power fantasy without making everything OP in an annoyingly inconsistent way. You have to play a Yareli Lato combo far more well-built and skillfully played than a Saryn does, to succeed at higher steel path levels and such.

I'm down for closing the power gap! Even if it is just a little over time...

[Berzerkules]

5 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

I do 99% damage/kills most of the time I take Saryn out for a spin. And when I'm not Saryn, I have to be taking a reaaaaally well built, competitive frame, and reaaaaally try hard in order to even approach another Saryn's kill count and damage. And I see others echo that sentiment a lot. Either my experience is the outlier, or yours is, but I'm inclined to think that yours is more of an outlier than mine is.

I just think it's funny that you're pointing out the flaws of other frames and the only thing wrong with Saryn is she is too good.

DE makes a frame with some minor flaws and people get pissed, they make a really good frame and the same people get pissed. You just can't please some people. 

People love complaining about the random Saryn they come across in a mission but they have no problem with her when they farm focus or rank/forma gear SO/ESO.

[Grav_Starstrider]

On 2022-03-19 at 4:33 PM, Berzerkules said:

I just think it's funny that you're pointing out the flaws of other frames and the only thing wrong with Saryn is she is too good.

DE makes a frame with some minor flaws and people get pissed, they make a really good frame and the same people get pissed. You just can't please some people. 

People love complaining about the random Saryn they come across in a mission but they have no problem with her when they farm focus or rank/forma gear SO/ESO.

I mean. There's a happy medium between too OP, and too weak. Yeah, I'll complain about either, hence this list of mostly 1 ability per most Warframes that feel weird or silly with it's relative uselessness, and the clear outlier XD and yeah, players will abuse a strategy for their own ends, and then get annoyed when the same thing infringes on their attempt at experiencing a power fantasy via Warframes. Feeling utterly dwarfed and eclipsed by other Warframes when you're supposed to be able to be doing the same thing, it's annoying XD

You are right though, it's funny.

On 2022-03-19 at 1:58 PM, Turritopsis_Dohrnii said:

I'm down for closing the power gap! Even if it is just a little over time...

Yeah, honestly I'd be fine with them making spores have double the base range, if they had 1/4th the base and accumulating damage, (or triple and 1/6th, or something) with just as fast a decay as currently, so that they were really just used more as a status proccing tool than a damage dealer, and to make the spore enemy radar augment halfway worth using.

Also asking to reduce the power gaps in general in the game is great! I think the overall problem though is that they've made too many interacting components in the game, to the point where it's nigh impossible to balance things, because one person's multi million endgame viable damage is chump change compared to a meta builder's DPS, so they can't even make a modding-dependent challenge for cinematic quests any more, and just have us working with default builds on weapons and puzzle based bosses. They need to consider compressing the range from the current 10s of damage through trillions of damage, to a more balance-able range like 1,000 through 1,000,000. THEN it'd be far easier to have Saryn balanced against other frames, and Warframe abilities balanced against weapon abilities, and enemies EHPs balanced against our damage output, and this in turn would help make damage reflection or enemy control abilities scale better in the game.

[cute_moth.npc]

On 2022-03-19 at 8:52 AM, Grav_Starstrider said:

This would be why if they're abandoning the concept of secrecy and surprises and cinematic official reveals, as we see with every Warframe and prime getting previewed/leaked via their own streams first, they should just embrace the usage of the Test Servers, and allow us to feel and test the Warframes before they commit to final values. Yareli had to have practically all of her stats and values like, doubled, within hours and days of her initial release.

If DE wants to be fast paced and loose with their releases, they should be committed to being similarly fast paced and loose with applying tweaks and changes to the frames, and not waiting until they've been officially released for people to purchase via plat. imo

They never even fixed her bugs, let alone finishing tuning her. After a few passes, they just moved on.

And you're right, the difference is that unlike game modes, UI bugs and other neglected things, Warframes are actually effectively paid content when offered as a purchase. 

I've cut down on my Warframe related spending quite a bit after Yareli, I don't feel like rewarding a company that won't support a purchase made with them. It's sort of a bad business plan to run rock bottom standards on what's supposed to be your titular product.

 

[Berzerkules]

5 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

I mean. There's a happy medium between too OP, and too weak. Yeah, I'll complain about either, hence this list of mostly 1 ability per most Warframes that feel weird or silly with it's relative uselessness, and the clear outlier XD and yeah, players will abuse a strategy for their own ends, and then get annoyed when the same thing infringes on their attempt at experiencing a power fantasy via Warframes. Feeling utterly dwarfed and eclipsed by other Warframes when you're supposed to be able to be doing the same thing, it's annoying XD

You are right though, it's funny.

It's not just Saryn though. There are just so many ways to speed clear basic stuff because enemies are such a low level we walk through them. Whoever gets to the enemies first gets the kills. 

Like last night I got bored and started messing around trying to make the fastest Xaku I could for speed clearing fissures. Started with Sprint boost (+15% sprint speed) and Rush(+30% sprint speed) of course. Slapped fire walker(25% speed) on their 3 because I have no need for armor strip on basic star chart. I know that gas and electric consistently procs head shots so I ran Proboscis Cernos to proc Arcane Consequence(+60% parkour velocity). Of course P cernos had Amalgam Serration(+25% sprint speed). Secondary was any old thing Amalgam Barrel Diffusion(+60% dodge speed). Melee was Karyst prime(10% movement speed) with Dispatch Overdrive(+60% movement speed). 

That's 165% sprint speed, 60% parkour velocity and 60% dodge speed. The usual suspects that everyone likes hating on didn't stand a chance against my turbo charged mobile aim bot skeleton. 

The thing is, I could throw that set up on almost any frame and slap thermal sunder on it and make Saryn play follow the leader. Nova with her portal + escape velocity, Saryn + speed boost from Molt, Mirage with her passive, Volt, Gauss, Nezha would all excel at speed clearing with a similar load out. 

If any frame build right can clear faster than the outliers are they really outliers anymore? Saryn is a fn terrific frame, the synergies between her abilities should be the goal of every frame. I'm not saying make every frame a nuke, but make them excel in their own way. 

[Grav_Starstrider]

On 2022-03-20 at 6:25 PM, Twin_Fawn said:

They never even fixed her bugs, let alone finishing tuning her. After a few passes, they just moved on.

And you're right, the difference is that unlike game modes, UI bugs and other neglected things, Warframes are actually effectively paid content when offered as a purchase. 

I've cut down on my Warframe related spending quite a bit after Yareli, I don't feel like rewarding a company that won't support a purchase made with them. It's sort of a bad business plan to run rock bottom standards on what's supposed to be your titular product.

 

Yeah it's honestly really kinda sad. They should, imo, at least with every new Warframe release be committed to at least a brief period of reviewing and re-tuning both new and old Warframes to make them someone comparable and polished instead of so wildly varying in effectiveness and bugginess. It's kinda sad that they seem to be about that "push it out of the door" mentality recently instead of the "make sure it's good" mentality. Yareli was freakin' rough as hell. Glorified renamed Intermission Pt. 3 is rough. Their inability to release a prime trailer alongside their prime releases for like, years in a row, was rough.

20 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

The thing is, I could throw that set up on almost any frame and slap thermal sunder on it and make Saryn play follow the leader.

And if you slapped it on Saryn then the map then becomes a walking simulator or captura session, as SHE'LL get to all of the enemies and spore-kill-miasma clear them first. I don't think this is a very conclusive point, and it also relies upon the assumption of using non-average builds. My point is, I almost never see Saryns that are too far below 95% kills and damage unless the enemies are SO low-health that she can't keep her spores up and spreading without them fizzling out, or unless as you indicated, someone SPECIFICALLY is making builds that out-speed her Spores. And my point is, you shouldn't have to intentionally make a speedster speed-clearing build in order to be able to play alongside a Saryn, or in pubs where Saryn might show up. You haven't successfully convinced me that Saryn isn't a bit of an egregious outlier for DPS and AoE room-clearing. And TBH, I think I'd need some actual hard stats to change my mind, with how long I've played and seen Saryns in many many places, but especially in ESO, and having played her myself, and seeing the 95-99% damage/kill stats with her. Like, DE revealing what a Saryn player's average percentage of damage contribution is in 4 person squads.

I agree that maybe Saryn should excel in ESO, or Survival, and similar situations and roles in other missions types, as it's just that she's "tailor-made to fit that game mode" as the devs have said at one point. But it shouldn't be so egregiously eclipsing other frames, imo. Again, I'd love to see the damage escalation and base damage on Spores greatly reduced, with the same or even more severe decay, in exchange for it having more range. It'd be far more in line with it being such a cheap to cast ability. Or make it so that only Saryn shooting spored enemies increases the damage of them by some amount, but that enemies only spread the spores half as far, but for Saryn it costs 5 energy (at base) when she spreads spores via kills. This way she has incentive to proactively play, and still rewards teamplay, but doesn't dominate so overwhelmingly. idk, just spitballing different possible restrictions to put on Spores to make them (and Saryn in general) less ridiculous to compete against or dominate with.

[Berzerkules]

8 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Yeah it's honestly really kinda sad. They should, imo, at least with every new Warframe release be committed to at least a brief period of reviewing and re-tuning both new and old Warframes to make them someone comparable and polished instead of so wildly varying in effectiveness and bugginess. It's kinda sad that they seem to be about that "push it out of the door" mentality recently instead of the "make sure it's good" mentality. Yareli was freakin' rough as hell. Glorified renamed Intermission Pt. 3 is rough. Their inability to release a prime trailer alongside their prime releases for like, years in a row, was rough.

And if you slapped it on Saryn then the map then becomes a walking simulator or captura session, as SHE'LL get to all of the enemies and spore-kill-miasma clear them first. I don't think this is a very conclusive point, and it also relies upon the assumption of using non-average builds. My point is, I almost never see Saryns that are too far below 95% kills and damage unless the enemies are SO low-health that she can't keep her spores up and spreading without them fizzling out, or unless as you indicated, someone SPECIFICALLY is making builds that out-speed her Spores. And my point is, you shouldn't have to intentionally make a speedster speed-clearing build in order to be able to play alongside a Saryn, or in pubs where Saryn might show up. You haven't successfully convinced me that Saryn isn't a bit of an egregious outlier for DPS and AoE room-clearing. And TBH, I think I'd need some actual hard stats to change my mind, with how long I've played and seen Saryns in many many places, but especially in ESO, and having played her myself, and seeing the 95-99% damage/kill stats with her. Like, DE revealing what a Saryn player's average percentage of damage contribution is in 4 person squads.

I agree that maybe Saryn should excel in ESO, or Survival, and similar situations and roles in other missions types, as it's just that she's "tailor-made to fit that game mode" as the devs have said at one point. But it shouldn't be so egregiously eclipsing other frames, imo. Again, I'd love to see the damage escalation and base damage on Spores greatly reduced, with the same or even more severe decay, in exchange for it having more range. It'd be far more in line with it being such a cheap to cast ability. Or make it so that only Saryn shooting spored enemies increases the damage of them by some amount, but that enemies only spread the spores half as far, but for Saryn it costs 5 energy (at base) when she spreads spores via kills. This way she has incentive to proactively play, and still rewards teamplay, but doesn't dominate so overwhelmingly. idk, just spitballing different possible restrictions to put on Spores to make them (and Saryn in general) less ridiculous to compete against or dominate with.

Just ran a fissure look what we got, Saryn with a bramma and a WuKong. They didn't stand a chance. Off meta>meta.

Instead of complaining that someone else is getting all the kills do something about it. Make a loadout that kills faster.

Saryn is fine, she's one of the best designed frames in the game and should be left alone. Let DE work on some underperforming frames instead of messing up what already works.

[Josh486]

On 2022-03-16 at 1:33 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

How do you manage to have issues with literally every frame expect Revenant, the Warframe with literally the most design issues.

???