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About Grav_Starstrider

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  1. Sounds like a bit of an extreme suggestion, and I'm not sure if you missed the times I said it, but that's why I suggested perhaps relegating the main damage mods to a new exclusive "damage slot", nerfing them so that it's not a DPS jump with the additional mod slots opened up. And I thought removing the mandatory-ish meta of multishot by making multishot mods just "become a shotgun" mods that spreads (dividing, not multiplying) out both the damage and chances for procs of status and crits across pellets, so that your gun deals more consistent procs. I'm glad you agree that a meta shift is in order though! Even if many people will end up replacing Serration and Split Chamber with the same two mods a bunch of the time, it'll still shake it up and make choosing other things less punishing.
  2. There was also Banshee's passive, and Loki's hushed invisibility augment, and in theory you'll be able to get more mileage in a different way from your already-silenced weapons, by placing something else useful in the slot. Maybe punchthrough will be available, maybe projectile speed, maybe a helpful +zoom to make something a more effective silenced sniping weapon, there are possibilities. Separately, I very much do think that DE's made projectile weapons with an arc a black sheep of the arsenal. I'm of the opinion that if something is silenced, it should normally be intended as a one-hit-kill weapon, because your weapon being silenced doesn't matter much if the enemy survives and yells at his buddies to alert the whole tile. And in general, I think the more skill(s) something requires, such as a bow and arrow or thrown projectile secondaries like Kunai, that require the leading of moving targets, and adjusting for arc, these should be more powerful than the weapons that are just a matter of pointing in the general direction of an enemy (Ignis or shotguns or explosive weapons), or pulling the trigger when things line up with the crosshairs, or spraying and praying. As it stands, the most sniper-comparative bow is the Daikyu and it really doesn't match up to hardly any of the more standard sniper rifles, despite requiring a bit more skill at reading arcs and leading targets. So, I definitely agree, the already-silent weaponry, which tends to be the bows and thrown weapons, ought to get reworked or buffed to be comparable, now that everything will have a freebie slot that will be convenient to throw silencers into.
  3. In regards to what I didn't quote here, I'm not ignoring the fact that there are more mods to increase DPS, and ones that increase DPS indirectly, that may be part of the Exilus slot expansion. I'm just focusing on the most egregiously power-boosting pair of mods in the game, Damage and Multishot, which both affect/multiply the weapon's strength by absurd amounts! That is the focus of this whole thread, really. I'll concede that myself and other players should more readily consider that they could make more "fun" configurations for their weapons and Warframes, for tackling lower level missions and content, that even go so far as to remove the primary damage mods from the weapon.... But to me, that just feels artificial, and counterproductive to any loot-hunting pursuits (this is a looter shooter game, so please don't suggest that's just my problem, when it's a driving focus of the game). Say I want to farm Plastids, with the chance of getting Condition Overload. I'd go to Ophelia on Uranus. My problem with your suggestion is that every conceded mod, removing Multishot or Damage or both from the weapon, will have a direct correlation to how long it takes me to farm enough Plastids for whatever I'm trying to build, because my ability to kill enemies (which is the best way to farm resources) will have been lessened, and make it take longer to do. It's an artificial handicap. I'd be more satisfied by actually having more difficult content that, with adequate preparation (modding) and skill, could net me more Plastids in exchange for the greater challenge. I love that DE has Sanctuary Onslaught and ELITE Sanctuary Onslaught, it gives you choice in the difficulty of the content that rewards you for the added difficulty! Kuva Floods if you can handle them, or Kuva Siphons for the less aggressively modded and skillful player/loadouts! I just don't find your suggestion of handicapping ourselves purposefully, for lesser in-game rewards, that tasteful or appealing a suggestion. I'd rather take the one, nigh-universally installed type of mod (base damage), and bake it into the system, so that we can have more freedom of choice with the freed slot, with the premise being that they'll ensure that everything remains balanced against that. Whether by nerfing Serration by a couple percent (which, by the way, really doesn't come close to your 'needing to start from scratch' comment), or just sliding all of the base weapon damages down by a small percent (which should be a really easy number-tweak from their end, I'd hope), they wouldn't be ruining or substantially changing the early player gameplay, nor the DPS and approach of the meta try-hards, but it'd be nicer for the players that already use a flex slot, and want another. Or were only one slot away from having a flex slot. Now, I am gonna go start making some fun-focused configs so that I'm not being a kill-hog when I'm with my friends.... It's just that in those cases, I'm not usually grinding for myself, it's about playing together. Lacking some of the better mods, they struggle to fight at some of the levels required to get certain rewards, and that's with them focusing on their DPS of their weapons.
  4. Eeeeeverybody keeps saying it'll pander more to DPS. Again. They could nerf Serration. They could remove or reduce the interactions/multiplications between damage/elemental/multishot. There's options to reduce or maintain the same DPS, while still benefiting the players that want more build variety, and punishing them less for it.
  5. Yeah, Warframe's modding and weapon design is pretty much intended to be kinda sandboxy and free-form when it comes to playing how you want to play the game, which is why things like Corrupted mods exist, rather than everything being only additive. You can intentionally throttle bullet hoses to be less ammo-hungry and deal more damage, or you can sacrifice damage for fire rate on a weapon that deals a lot of per-bullet damage. I think Warframe fairly actively chose to be a "catch them all" game with it's sheer variety and quantity of weapons. I feel like they, to a degree, already do what you're proposing though. After all, as you "catch them all" and rank stuff, you get to higher and higher mastery ranks, which gives you more starting capacity on your weapons. And mods aren't per-weapon, in the sense that you can use the same individual Serration on any rifle. And limiting mod quantity and capacity makes our choices matter more (ignoring the fact that Serration and such are so effective that it's a non-choice). Going to a sorta Borderlands-esque system where the weapons don't get modified, but rather our own skill trees and accumulating perks, would just make it a completely different game. Although, I definitely would like some more "RPG skill tree" elements in Warframe, if possible.... It's a thought! What I do agree with is that I think currently, we're given tools that incentivize really boring configurations, where we're being rewarded for just chasing ridiculously high critical or status chance numbers because it'll kill the enemy the fastest and easiest, which is usually the way to get the most rewards out of the game. That's part of why I want the weapon base damage mod to get rolled into an extra, dedicated slot. Hopefully we could feel less punished using more Aero or Periphery mods and such, or be completely non-punished by having them be able to be put into the Exilus slot. And in fairness to DE, they're doing a pretty decent job of expanding the repertoire of fun mods with Nightwave rewards, a number of those are really unique, interesting, and fun gimmicks that actually offer potent alternative gameplay, like the Grakata's Wild Frenzy mod, or Harpak's Exposing Harpoon, or the Bursting Mass mod for the Mutalist Quanta.
  6. And it's not possible you're having the same problem? Ignoring that a whole bunch of other people are chiming in that there's often only one "flex" slot for their builds that they can be satisfied with sacrificing to something non-DPS-focused? Lots of people say that the mark of someone that really understands what they're doing/saying, is that they can teach another person in a way that they'll understand. They'll find a way to rephrase, to separate out individual pieces and concepts in a way that people understand. Also, the burden of proof is on the person making any statements. You can't just say things that someone doesn't understand or can't parse because of bizarre grammar and phrasing, and act like it's a valid indictment of opposing opinions. Anyone can just say something, and declare that they think they're right. So maybe stop being condescending and actually try and rephrase what you meant. At this point, I feel like it's really quite telling that you aren't meaningfully engaging with any of my counterpoints, and just keep going "yup, he has his head in the sand, he's not listening". It's a really easy, lazy way out, that lets you keep feeling superior. If you're concerned about making Serration a freebie by giving Primaries a damage-specific slot, and that it increases dps, the really, really obvious answer, is to mildly nerf the damage mod, since people are theoretically going to be able to squeeze more DPS out of the guns by using the opened up slot, and the right tactical Exilus mod. But I think a lot of people are only one slot away from being able to justify using a non-DPS mod, or they already have one, and would love to be able to throw a second non-DPS focused mod on. Can you just say what you mean, in the simplest, most direct manner possible, and then elaborate on the details of it? Having your premise/summary and your details separate will help people understand what you mean, because they'll figure out the relation between what your premise and details are. I thought I understood it, because you keep on mentioning how you don't use Serration on dethcube's rifle just because you're using a fire-rate focused build, because you're using it for utility instead of damage, and you're claiming that nobody needs to use Serration unless they're doing endurance runs (I now realized what you meant by "going hours", way to not bother explaining a simple thing, bruh) or other high level content. I think this is really blatantly at odds with the other things you said, because you said so yourself, "knowing players, they'll choose DPS mods if they get more slots" (paraphrased). Basically, between you and most other people in this thread, and pretty much anyone I've ever spoken to about it, everyone agrees that the "mandatory mods", the main Damage mods especially, like Serration, are so crippling to play without, comparatively, that it doesn't make sense to anyone to un-equip it. Too many people in this game are wired for "efficiency first", for us to consider Serration "optional". Looking forward to discussion instead of meaningless, useless snark 😕
  7. Ah, goalpost move, now you guys only consider it content if it advances the "primary" plot. For the record, most good stories don't work that way. Most stories develop their world and characters. If they want Nora to ever be involved in some major plotline, for whatever reason, I'll be glad for her to be an established character with backstory, rather than some DC/Marvel major heelturn story twist with a new character introducing some massive change to the status quo. They occasionally work, granted, but like. Lore is good. "Virtually no one" is pretty subjective. Are we eager for more main-plotline content? Yeah. Do I want them to bum-rush to the end of the story without any sense of pacing, and with ZERO character/world development that isn't 100% directly tied to that plot? Definitely not. I'm personally just glad that they've set up a system where we almost always have something to do, that isn't just randomized alerts and invasions, that gives us lore and story. It's a big improvement over "completely barren content drought" between every story-quest update.
  8. A lot of the problems are definitely interrelated, I agree. The numbers and effects on the weapon side will completely miss the context of "what enemies in the game does this actually effect, and to what degree". But some mods can and should be looked at in isolation, and be adjusted to have a place, if they aren't blatantly superceded by other superior versions of the mods (like the extra powerful IPS mods dropped by Razorback/Fomorian/Eidolons compared to the standard counterparts).
  9. I legitimately don't see what I'm missing because of all of your weird phrasing, but sure, play the burdened genius, the only one that can understand an issue. If you're talking about people choosing to use Serration and Split Chamber, then you're ignoring all of the people in this thread that agree, saying "yeah, it'd be one thing if choosing something else traded 10-25% of the DPS in exchange for QoL or unique playstyle-enabling mods, but when it kills 40% of DPS, it feels like you have no choice". Maybe it's you who has the blinkered viewpoint. Cuz again, the devs at DE also have acknowledged the mandatory mod issue. *shrug* You're right, that's pretty much the idea! I'm just looking at how obnoxious some of the builds are getting (5 forma plus 2 innate polarities and such) on weapons because of how many high-capacity-cost mods there are, and seeing how the damage mod is (basically) ALWAYS on weapons, I figure you can kill two birds with one stone, free up a mod slot and refund some capacity to make up for the capacity that can get eaten by the Exilus slot moving forward. When you think about it, having to put polarities on practically every single slot limits player choice a smidge, so it'd be nice to have just a smidge more wiggle room, capacity-wise. May give some people's builds back a "flex slot" so that they can switch between different builds more freely. Regarding the "too big to change", they're already doing a massive, fairly fundamental/comprehensive rewrite of the entire melee system and a bunch of it's mods, so I feel like this change isn't outside of the scope of what they could do. It's not like I'm asking them to entirely recreate the entire game without the spaghetti code. Even though it might make the game smaller, more efficient, and more consistent. It'd just be too ludicrously large a task, for not enough payback/advantage. Comparatively, I think updating the modding/damage system would do wonders for the health/feel of the game. ACTUAL Primary/Secondary Aura mods could be a neat idea to improve build variety as well! I can see either the Damage slot or the Prim./Sec. Aura slots working pretty nicely. And I hella agree with the element/damage stuff, so many of them are really outdated. It's pretty f'ed up that Slash is just indisputably the BEST in basically all circumstances barring like, Eidolon hunts and some other (mini?)boss fights. I'd totally prefer to make a new topic for that though, to bring back up a bunch of the community's best ideas (like armor ignore banshee-like hotspots for puncture procs, and/or innate punchthrough on those procs, impact procs could induce finisher-exposing, tie enemy special abilities to their own energy pools or cooldowns that magnetic procs would disrupt/disable/drain, lots of fun options). Ultimately I'd be okay with Slash still being the meta for raw genocidal DPS vs the whole crowd (Hunter Munitions Ignis), as long as the other stuff has a place (like making impact the de-facto gun element to use if melee-finisher-focused). But again, another topic, we're on Mandatory Mods and Exilus Slots 😉 Meta tryhards will always find a meta. This is more geared towards giving people that wish they had just one slot more for a QoL mod. And regarding the Damage Slot, I didn't intend for it to be an open slot that you could put any "+ Damage" mod into, the idea was to turn Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike, (Pressure Point, if we also wanted to apply this to melee per Voltage's comment about Melee being the same with a really really REALLY common set of mods being almost universally used) and whatever I missed, into something akin to an un-polarized stance slot, after stripping the capacity of Serration and such, down to their "Rank" value. So Serration would give like, 10 Capacity when maxed out (If I'm recalling how many ranks it has correctly), mirroring how Melee and Warframes have a capacity-increasing slot for a specific type of mod. I think making it give 20 capacity would be excessive though, so I'm inclined to suggest that there be no possible polarization for the Damage slot. And if you wanted to use Heavy Cal in the standard 8 slots, feel free? I don't see much of any issue with that. _ _ _ And @ all of you worried about a slippery slope in relegating any meta mod into a unique slot inherent to all weapons, "Slippery Slope" is a fallacy. To quote Wikipedia, "A slippery slope argument (SSA), in logic, critical thinking, political rhetoric, and caselaw, is a logical fallacy[1] in which a party asserts that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant (usually negative) effect." Do you really think DE would go off the rails and make a dedicated "Multishot Slot", "Critical Chance Slot", or so on and so forth? It's taken them years to add the Exilus slot to Warframes in the first place, and then years to consider implementing it onto weapons as well. I don't think we have to worry about them expanding our modding screen to have 12 or 16 mods. Please choose a different argument 😕 And @ everyone that is critiquing that it wouldn't reduce meta, the community would find a new meta mod to replace it in the usual 8, etc, there's always a meta! People seeking a meta will always choose the "most efficient" set of mods for their goal. The point is to, by these few simple steps, we might reduce how severely punished the players who already use non-meta builds are! We might be able to help players who are just one slot short of choosing something that they want instead of what they need in order to have the DPS to succeed at a mission. The idea is to reduce the severity and degree to which there is a meta. imo, a meta build shouldn't become only half as powerful by swapping a single mod out of the build, as I see on my Vectis Prime. I opted to do so anyways, choosing Sharpshooter, so I can snipe and cast, but knowing I'm losing around 40-50% of my DPS on my Vectis P hurts!
  10. I mean... It's less about some "hierarchy" and more about just the fact that most mods stack off of each other to a ludicrous degree, to the point where you're compelled to always choose this whole set of high-damage-feedback-loop mods, damage multishot elemental (and the bane mods for the tryhards). Moving one of the mandatory mods to a new "Damage" slot helps add +1 mod to build variety, even if there are several "meta" options. And yeah, in general that's what I would propose, altering and nerfing the interactions between the different damage, multishot, and elemental damage mods, to effectively buff all of the other options, to encourage build diversity (and/or punish build diversity less). This isn't constructive feedback, I'll leave it at that. Eh, Serration getting leveled up by the player in the beginning of the game is a fun experience, imo. Very actively and tangibly feel your weapon growing stronger as you upgrade it to it's max. And I really liked my idea of making it like a stance mod, boosting capacity of the weapon to require fewer forma, or the same forma but to also provide the capacity for the exilus slot. My problem with your last suggestion is that they're literally corrupted mods at that point XD BUT I've had that same idea and I prefer it to the current, since it makes mods "Modifications" instead of just "additive power". You're a perfect example of another player who feels robbed of choice because the effectiveness of stacking the cliche damage/multishot/elemental is so much more effective than anything else we might want to install instead. What I'd honestly really like, is for Multishot to just turn into a "make this a shotgun" mod, that splits damage and crit chance and status chance across the pellets, increasing the average chance of a smaller proc occurring. They could even convert them into corrupted mods, it'd suit the theme really nicely actually. Since it's effectively a + status/crit chance, - damage mod at that point. Ideally, nerf all enemy health by around 1/2 to make up for the half as powerful guns? 😛 Even if y'all hate it and scream "don't nerf muh guns", I think it's still worth considering as an option for reducing the severity or degree to which the specific mod choices are currently mandatory on most weapons. A lot of weapons would actually be better remaining as a single projectile, for aim's sake, and/or their status or crit chance after other mods are already close enough to an increment of 100% that more guaranteed cumulative status/crit procs wouldn't be necessary. For such weapons, changing multishot like that, adding an exilus slot, and moving damage (serration) to a dedicated "Damage Slot" would free up 3 mod slots on such weapons! That's a lot more build variety/change, definitely worth considering! Going hours? Dunno what you mean by that, but you're missing the point that things like Serration are SO GOOD to the point that we basically can't justify the use of other mods in place of it. And yeah, a bunch of the try-hards will only want to fill the emptied slot with more DPS, but for the people who already find the justification for a utility or QoL mod on specific weapons? Or only need "one more slot" for their first one? It'd help. You seem to be complaining that it'd just be moving the goalpost, something along the lines of "in that case, may as well just make the weapon have Point Strike, Barrel Diffusion, and Serration stats all by default out of the gate, and then you've freed up 3 slots" but like. That's not how this works. Changing one type of mod (the main damage mod per weapon class) does not guarantee, or even raise the likelihood, of us doing the same thing to another mod. At that point DE would probably just raise weapon caps to 40 (80) and give us an entire third row of slots, one of them being the designated Exilus slot. That's just not realistic. And your claims that it'd increase min-maxer's DPS? If we either nerf the damage mods, nerf/alter Multishot, even with a freed up slot or two, I don't think we'd see that much of a net difference in DPS in either direction. Your concerns are able to be addressed within the framework of what I'm suggesting. And yeah, enemies being paper or warm butter at low levels for our fully modded stuff is definitely an enemy scaling issue, not a modding issue, you're right! Can they go through and modify every single enemy, right now? Probably not, no! But we're talking about the problem of choice-prohibitively effective "mandatory mods", and how we can improve and increase viability (and lessen punishment) for less "meta" modding builds. Your ultimatum of claiming that it'd HAVE to be done in conjunction with reworking enemies and the entire rest of the modding system is just flat out wrong. Especially when you consider the fact that, for all we know, DE could just flat out remove those mods, and we'd just have to deal with the new status quo, where everything is suddenly a lot harder to kill (or overkilled less severely). There's nothing really substantial or tangible that dictates that the mods HAVE to remain in the game. I just think we've invested in it and got used to it, so we need to repurpose and recontextualize it instead of just stripping it away, or the people who spent effort working on the mod and working it into their builds would rage. But again, your ultimatum is pretty blatantly untrue. *shrug*
  11. I think I get what you mean, "C is always chosen after B which is always chosen after A", where does the slippery slope stop? I'd say the difference in player choice becomes immediately evident with your own 90 elemental comment. The point is that you'd have less incentive to choose it compared to something else like Hunter Munitions, because the elemental damage mod wouldn't be scaling off of both the flat damage and the multishot mods. And even when you do, it may be moreso because of the elemental proc, since we've established that the raw DPS component wouldn't be as much of a factor, in this scenario where elemental damage didn't get multiplied by damage and multishot. I'd say the end of the slippery slope probably would just be the reworking of the base flat damage mods like Serration. Because there are some weapons that Multishot, while preferable from a DPS standpoint, might cause issues with the change and unreliability of the projectile spread (there's a few bows that I will/can NOT use for long range with Multishot, because of that reason, and Angstrum also becomes unpredictable in the same way). Oh, I think I see another thing you may have meant. Yeah, in general, corrupted mods are going to be situational, and not suited to every gun, inherently, because they come with a downside. I don't think that's really a valid argument. But by all rights, removing the guaranteed mandatory mod, and then reducing the impact of the next 1 or 2, you would end up with more usable builds containing such a mod. It's basically just simple math. By lowering the effectiveness of something or lowering the effectiveness of a collection of things, you're effectively indirectly buffing everything else. The other thing you're noting is about the situational/gameplay dependent mods. That almost as much has to do with DE's enemy scaling issues, as it does with the current modding metas in general. Since at higher levels, it can be difficult to arrange the circumstances in question, to reliably take advantage of the mod, compared to just slapping on another passive "add's X quantity of damage forever" and then not having to think particularly hard about how you play. But again, just by shifting the importance of Damage and Multishot and Elemental Damage farther down the pole, you will indirectly be providing more player choice, because they'll feel less punished by the game for choosing it, than they were before. Let me know if I misunderstood parts of what you meant, or if stuff I'm saying still doesn't make sense or you disagree with it.
  12. I think we're both on the same page as far as Base/Flat Damage and Multishot both being insta-slots on 95%+ of primary and secondary weapons. Not really sure what you mean by "free bonuses" though. It's just that they're choice-prohibitively ludicrously effective at boosting DPS in basically every single possible weapon build. So it's not really that they're "free", it's just that they're "mandatory mods", as people call them, which is why I propose relegating at least one of them, the flat damage mods, to an Aura/Stance slot sort of status. As an added perk, this makes the UI more consistent, if they make it mimic Warframe's mod UI, with two on top, and the 8 below, rather than one being awkwardly off to the right side.
  13. Yup, I agree, enemies should be one of the next big things that DE should look at. But Exilus slots are happening now, and by proxy, the Mandatory Mod topic is happening now, so we may as well try to come to an agreement on what should be done, and get DE to consider it now, while the iron is hot, before they call it "good enough for now" and shelve it for several years because there's more "urgent" concerns. And in any case, you really can't rework enemies very far without also tweaking player damage, from what I see. Like. Objectively, if enemy numbers go down across the board (or a given section of the board), the sensible thing would be to also lower the player numbers, or else the starchart will be even more of a snoozefest, for new and old players alike. You know?
  14. You seemed to ignore my point, so I'm going to reiterate it. My point is that it's choice-prohibitive when removing any given mod makes something function only 60% as well (or worse). Like. My problem is the scope of how aggressively the game punishes you for not seeking the most DPS-focused build. You should be able to throw silencing mods onto weaponry without it ruining your DPS so severely. I'm not saying remove Multishot and Base Damage mods from the game altogether, I just want that ridiculous cocktail of DamageXElementalXMultishotXFactionDamage to not be so choice-prohibitively effective an option by so many factors, compared to more whimsically-constructed builds. I will be glad for the addition of the Exilus slot, because it gives us another slot to use, that won't be able to demand be filled by a DPS-focused mod. I just propose going one step further, and pulling the ABSOLUTELY UBIQUITOUS mandatory mod (base damage, Serration and such) out of the standard 8, and putting it into something comparable to the Warframe's Aura slot, or melee's Stance slot. If nothing else, even for the tryhard min-maxers, it puts them one step closer to more subjective choices, rather than there being an absolutely ironclad incontestable meta for a given weapon.
  15. Again, why are we even talking about this with a mainline projected to arrive by the end of the month, and after we just finished nightwave? THERE IS NO DROUGHT. Y'all who keep making these forum posts about lack of content can't go 3 weeks without an update, apparently, since that's how long it's been since Nora's last transmission aired. Is there any other videogame that provides story updates once a month?? Unironically, I'd like you to show me such a game, because I'm kinda caught up on a bunch of my books and stuff and would love a solid drip feed of story content. We'll get an intermission, I'm sure, at latest, at the end of the month with the mainline. Hold your horses and stop expecting a major cinematic quest update once a month, and stop moving the goalposts.
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