AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Venus-Venera]

only devs have to calculate the reward. because sp is currently not worth it.
only players with top gear can farm sp in a reasonable amount of time. and they don't need most reward from sp. slightly increased chance for mods or rare resources is just not tempting because it's still miserably small...

[_LotusPrime_]

17 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

only devs have to calculate the reward. because sp is currently not worth it.
only players with top gear can farm sp in a reasonable amount of time. and they don't need most reward from sp. slightly increased chance for mods or rare resources is just not tempting because it's still miserably small...

i mean ... i wish rewards kinda encompass better overall but , tis a slow process 

but they become better at listening over time as theyve started to show over the last few years  , its alright

my wish is that they have learnt enough in that big content drought period their lesson as to not repeat similar mistakes 

i think their best and biggest recovery was to repair railjack content , its basically fun now and not a detestable .. thing and it gives you an amazing space adventure of sorts , and that its rewards are actually better than what you get from normal chart even SP respectively , DE not being too stingy is always a good sign

to recover from such place , not many companies can do that and i think thats basicaly a hope pill  

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb _LotusPrime_:

i think their best and biggest recovery was to repair railjack content , its basically fun now and not a detestable .. thing and it gives you an amazing space adventure of sorts , and that its rewards are actually better than what you get from normal chart even SP respectively , DE not being too stingy is always a good sign

Yes. railjack is fun. rewards are great. in addition to many resources, i also get prime gear and 1-4 keys.
I didn't play it before. but after the changes i really enjoyed playing it and got all the rewards.

only the devs should have listened to the players and continue to expand railjack. because the players didn't want to leave railjack back then! certain missions are easy and boring and don't make much sense in my opinion. example would be the first veil missions where i have to hack something and then i have to go back outside. and that several times...

railjack missions could have been a good game if the devs listened to the players at least a little bit. because code is already there and they can learn a lot from the very old games like:
X: Beyond the Frontier
Conflict: Freespace
etc.

because this is about dodging and killing enemies with the ship. That's exactly what the players wanted and suggested missions like mobile def, ext, etc.
all this should be played without leaving the ship.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb _LotusPrime_:

to recover from such place , not many companies can do that and i think thats basicaly a hope pill  

hard to say. i think they almost gave up on warframe. because too little real cash is invested. and they want to produce less content.
hence the AOE nerf and bugged line of sight mechanic (planned). so you have to play much longer for the rewards. that's how it looks in my opinion.
that's why a new project soulframe is being developed, where you probably won't achieve anything with f2p. at least in the first few years.

are you a vet too? so you're probably swimming in plat with your other char and haven't bought anything with real cash for ages?

[BR31]

9 часов назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

I did kuva fissure survival without AoE (felarx and grendel) , my opinion has not changed.

 

I do similar combo as well. And i don't have problems either. But i have 1000s of hours on my account with everything and many people don't.

As i said before if you're on the forums - it's unlikely that you're the target audience for which the changes are coming.

You cannot do an sp fissure kuva survival atm, since it doesn't exist  ( nullies and ancients with aoe scaling overguard to every unit).

I will still count that one, but you do understand that it's one of the highest raw damage weapons in the game rn.
I expect some interaction nerfs to it , people know what i mean. Even if it's the weakest among the family, it's a hella strong family.
It has infinite body punchthrough (i highly doubt you use incarn form) and grendel has an ability to nuke.
And is one of the few frames which have enemy level in its abilities scaling formula and it's not a flat amount how it's for the most frames.

Same thoughts about the feedback loop + surveys pretty much .

About balance and sp.  My main problem- you cannot be half pregnant . You either do it and commit or don't.
One day it's optional- but not really. We don't balance - but we do. What kind of mental gymnastics is that?

[BR31]

12 часов назад, CosoMalvadoNG сказал:

I play mag with any decent shotgun and I don't have any problems. The thing is to look for buts. These people don't understand that their lack of skill doesn't mean it can't be done.

Mag is both a nuke and a group frame (won't even count a strip and one of the only synergies in the game with punchth.) Read the initial post.

I already made the condition significantly wider than it should be .

If it will be needed for the second wave of nerfs- i'll probably do a showcase,

What you could expect from the most guns in a game with a tank frame with a strong most used helminth abilities.
And how many frames and weapons can do this benchmark. And how much actual choice we have for that level of content.

But i really hope some youtuber is gonna do it instead, because it's def more than 200 hours of pure testing ,
plus recording plus excel plus making it look better than a wall of texts, videos and numbers.
Even if i'll compact it into families and similar options.

You also missed nullies and ancients part (reworked ancients, which many people still are missing).

[BR31]

15 часов назад, Tyreaus сказал:

Steel Path doesn't exclude Starchart et al., though. I don't think you're wrong in how DE is balancing some things around SP _{(whether they ought to, as they said they wouldn't, is a different matter)}, but in much the same way balance changes looking at Starchart don't invalidate Steel Path considerations, balance changes looking at Steel Path don't invalidate Starchart considerations. It goes both ways.

(Just as a side note, does Phenmor count as AoE? I'm pretty sure I've inadvertently done an SP Kuva Survival fissure with that one time or another.)

We can not count it as aoe. And count that you passed the test. 
Because most people won't be able to do it and balance is about most people, not a small % , imo.

But my full respond is basically the same as i gave to the f00l few posts higher.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, BR31 said:

I do similar combo as well. And i don't have problems either. But i have 1000s of hours on my account with everything and many people don't.

As i said before if you're on the forums - it's unlikely that you're the target audience for which the changes are coming.

You cannot do an sp fissure kuva survival atm, since it doesn't exist  ( nullies and ancients with aoe scaling overguard to every unit).

I will still count that one, but you do understand that it's one of the highest raw damage weapons in the game rn.
I expect some interaction nerfs to it , people know what i mean. Even if it's the weakest among the family, it's a hella strong family.
It has infinite body punchthrough (i highly doubt you use incarn form) and grendel has an ability to nuke.
And is one of the few frames which have enemy level in its abilities scaling formula and it's not a flat amount how it's for the most frames.

Same thoughts about the feedback loop + surveys pretty much .

About balance and sp.  My main problem- you cannot be half pregnant . You either do it and commit or don't.
One day it's optional- but not really. We don't balance - but we do. What kind of mental gymnastics is that?

I had completely forgotten about the body punchthrough , thanks for reminding me. I like the shotgun , but i have much more potent and effective single target weapons.

I only mentioned that cause i was recently levelling it , i also levelled the hespar and the ambassador in it. I mostly stuck to the Auto mode and ranked it fully there. So it's not so much the weapon (though you would be foolish to take a weak loadout there) , i have used that mode to level many weapons , so it's not just one odd lucky strike.

Grendel is great if you know what to do , but i don't know if you can call impact damage that effective , especially since you can't traverse that well nor can you kill fast enough to be considered a nuke with how the damage actually works , especially against grineer.

If i am not the target for any changes then who are ? Kuva fissure survival is expected to be reached after completing the war within and is one of the more difficult missions while still being on the star chart, needing some planning and skill , and why even use that as a reference for comparison if you are going to deny any examples for it being completed. Pick a reference and stick to it please, my being in the forum has no relevance to the outcome.

And while there is no SP kuva survival fissure , there is mot. Mot still has that unique damage multiplier for enemies if you really want a good reference with nullies and ancients.

End of the day , you put forth challenge , i completed it. There is no reason why others cannot do the same. 

And the argument "new players can't do it" is empty , new players are not expected to be at that power level that early. There is the whole star chart and beyond to complete first.

[BR31]

1 час назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

 

I only mentioned that cause i was recently levelling it , i also levelled the hespar and the ambassador in it. I mostly stuck to the Auto mode and ranked it fully there. So it's not so much the weapon (though you would be foolish to take a weak loadout there) , i have used that mode to level many weapons , so it's not just one odd lucky strike.

Ofc it's not one gun, but the % of them that cannot do it overweights ones that do by a big margin. That's my point.
That's one problem but it enhances with the others to result in the same old cycle of people overusing outliers,
nerfing both outliers and archetype to the point where people go to the next thing to be nerfed and complaining for thing 1 to be buffed again.
Finding a good middle ground is a legit difficult design goal.

 

 

1 час назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

 but i don't know if you can call impact damage that effective , especially since you can't traverse that well nor can you kill fast enough to be considered a nuke with how the damage actually works , especially against grineer.

 

Grendel has 2 sources with enemy formula scaling in his kit , both impact and toxin.
Toxin part is more flexible, is synergized more with his kit - since nourish and regurt+feast all have syn with toxin.
And this path has more ways of scaling it.
Grendel has some armor strip in his kit already - i wonder if there will be changes to it or de forgot that he has it .
And people did used other ways to improve it with helm and weps, so it was grineer viable already, surely more setup than vs others.

 

1 час назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

If i am not the target for any changes then who are ?

 

Whatever the most populated MR range rn, there were stats during some of the dev streams.
Mr14-mr20 something , iirc? Few 100s hours, having quite a lot of things, but not all.

"why even use that as a reference for comparison"

Because that's the tankiest faction at base, completed by nullies, which narrow the choices,
which are completed by ancients, which give overguard to at base tanky units and make them immune to cc,
and some damage abilities, which have cc part in it- cancelling the damage part.

"while there is no SP kuva survival fissure , there is mot"

It wasn't neither a random choice or my fav tile.
While mot does have a damage multi, which is sometimes a buff rather than a negative, but let's not focus on that.
Overall less ehp by a lot .

Main reason is on top of reduced life support drops from sp, you don't use towers for air, you use them for kuva.
And it's actually of the few mobile defense loop in a game which are fun to have and make the base gamemode more fun
and reduce camping playstyle which other survival tiles prefer to use. I can write a whole wall of text if needed how it changes on camp vs not.


"And the argument "new players can't do it" is empty , new players are not expected to be at that power level that early. There is the whole star chart and beyond to complete first. "

What's the new players in your opinion?
Zariman tileset is not used my "new players" (even speedrunners who did it-should've watched youtube and read wiki to probably over 2x their playtime),
yet zariman enemies were nerfed multiple times because people said it was too hard, that's i guess is the better picture of a target audience.
That's not touching sp zariman at all , mind you .

"There is no reason why others cannot do the same.  "

So: baro rotations to get a specific primed mods (some mods took years to comeback, you cannot buy a tennocon-baro ticket with plat), limited source of formas, catalysts,
absense of rare items, which cost too much and make your life easier to the point you forget that most people don't have it  (primed example ofc is energize, but are still others and
were many before).
Rj ash without a real drop was a thing for a year? And it was one of the most used helminths for disruption or any other high level cont.
Ensnare /larva to activate gas builds? Their frames and their farms and how many people will have it ?
I'm already writing a poem and i'll probably can continue with 20 x of just examples.

Huge % of people who were for nerfs will be for buffs,  if they'll ever touch harder modes, because they will realize how much it costs to
make bad weapon tolerable or goodish.

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, BR31 said:

Ofc it's not one gun, but the % of them that cannot do it overweights ones that do by a big margin. That's my point.
That's one problem but it enhances with the others to result in the same old cycle of people overusing outliers,
nerfing both outliers and archetype to the point where people go to the next thing to be nerfed and complaining for thing 1 to be buffed again.
Finding a good middle ground is a legit difficult design goal.

Wouldnt the AoE weapons that are under question also be outliers? so its ok to have one set of outliers be accessible but not another? Not quite logically sound is it? And the current change i think is a good start to find that middle ground.

8 hours ago, BR31 said:

Grendel has 2 sources with enemy formula scaling in his kit , both impact and toxin.

Toxin part is more flexible, is synergized more with his kit - since nourish and regurt+feast all have syn with toxin.
And this path has more ways of scaling it.
Grendel has some armor strip in his kit already - i wonder if there will be changes to it or de forgot that he has it .
And people did used other ways to improve it with helm and weps, so it was grineer viable already, surely more setup than vs others.

Ah you were talking about the toxin effect , i rarely used the regurgitate during the mission myself. and that still requires prep , its not an instant kill effect and the Armor atrip is over time and has some energy management required.

Based on your other responses your qualifier of nuke is very loose. 

And grendel was also just one recent example i have completed the mission using a variety of frames and weapons , Nezha with p grinlok is another example.

8 hours ago, BR31 said:

Whatever the most populated MR range rn, there were stats during some of the dev streams.

Mr14-mr20 something , iirc? Few 100s hours, having quite a lot of things, but not all.
 

Not sure that MR is a qualifier for capability , though i guess it works as areference for average, they have gear but do they know how to use it? or did they just one and done it in hydron or ESO?

8 hours ago, BR31 said:

 

"why even use that as a reference for comparison"

Because that's the tankiest faction at base, completed by nullies, which narrow the choices,
which are completed by ancients, which give overguard to at base tanky units and make them immune to cc,
and some damage abilities, which have cc part in it- cancelling the damage part.

"while there is no SP kuva survival fissure , there is mot"

It wasn't neither a random choice or my fav tile.
While mot does have a damage multi, which is sometimes a buff rather than a negative, but let's not focus on that.
Overall less ehp by a lot .

Main reason is on top of reduced life support drops from sp, you don't use towers for air, you use them for kuva.
And it's actually of the few mobile defense loop in a game which are fun to have and make the base gamemode more fun
and reduce camping playstyle which other survival tiles prefer to use. I can write a whole wall of text if needed how it changes on camp vs not.

 

 

Pretty sure MOT SP , has tankier enemies, and the point of acquiring kuva as a reason is flawed, there are better more effective ways to acquire it now. Kuva fissures is mostly for kuva relics, which again is for acquiring kuva weapons which is again for gaining power , so its only fair that the players have the bare minimum power to hold their own for it.

8 hours ago, BR31 said:

 

"And the argument "new players can't do it" is empty , new players are not expected to be at that power level that early. There is the whole star chart and beyond to complete first. "

What's the new players in your opinion?
Zariman tileset is not used my "new players" (even speedrunners who did it-should've watched youtube and read wiki to probably over 2x their playtime),
yet zariman enemies were nerfed multiple times because people said it was too hard, that's i guess is the better picture of a target audience.
That's not touching sp zariman at all , mind you .
 

 

A few qualifiers,

1) Looks at a new gearitem and thinks "what mods can i use" instead of " how many forma do i need"

2) Has less than 50% of essential mods (refer essential mod bundles)

3) Has most mods at less than 70% max rank,

4) does not have access to more than 3 focus nodes,

5) Does not have a preferred loadout despite having more than 3 items per slot

6) Checks loadout and mods before starting any misison solo.

8 hours ago, BR31 said:

"There is no reason why others cannot do the same.  "

So: baro rotations to get a specific primed mods (some mods took years to comeback, you cannot buy a tennocon-baro ticket with plat), limited source of formas, catalysts,
absense of rare items, which cost too much and make your life easier to the point you forget that most people don't have it  (primed example ofc is energize, but are still others and
were many before).
Rj ash without a real drop was a thing for a year? And it was one of the most used helminths for disruption or any other high level cont.
Ensnare /larva to activate gas builds? Their frames and their farms and how many people will have it ?
I'm already writing a poem and i'll probably can continue with 20 x of just examples.

you are confusing an exclusively free player (unwilling to trade) with a new player,

why would DE cater to a player that will never add any revenue to their coffers directly or indirectly and will only use one item the rest of their life? you are only looking at the ease to player , you aren't considering the cost to developers.

Next , The only primed mods i used in the weapons was primed shred and primed reach for the weapons , both have non primed options that can be acquired.

and why would you expect anyone to complete a difficult mission effortlessly? it is exactly because it is effortless with certain weapons that the changes are happening, i didnt have a full arcane energize until the orphix event, i managed just fine back then and many of my loadouts don't have energize cause there are other ways to acquire energy now.

Finally , I can only speak for myself, but i can i assure you i never used Ash's helminth on any other frame ,nor do i use ensnare or larva (except when i am playing with khora and nidus).

You can keep giving examples and i can keep telling you if i actually use it or not.

8 hours ago, BR31 said:

Huge % of people who were for nerfs will be for buffs,  if they'll ever touch harder modes, because they will realize how much it costs to

make bad weapon tolerable or goodish.

with 8 forma on hema , i know just how much it needs to make bad weapons adequate and adequate weapons good,

The problem is the difference between adequate and good weapons ,that i would like to see reduced, and the current change is looking to address that at least partially and i am happy for it.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 13 horas, BR31 dijo:

Mag is both a nuke and a group frame (won't even count a strip and one of the only synergies in the game with punchth.) Read the initial post.

I already made the condition significantly wider than it should be .

If it will be needed for the second wave of nerfs- i'll probably do a showcase,

What you could expect from the most guns in a game with a tank frame with a strong most used helminth abilities.
And how many frames and weapons can do this benchmark. And how much actual choice we have for that level of content.

But i really hope some youtuber is gonna do it instead, because it's def more than 200 hours of pure testing ,
plus recording plus excel plus making it look better than a wall of texts, videos and numbers.
Even if i'll compact it into families and similar options.

You also missed nullies and ancients part (reworked ancients, which many people still are missing).

People have forgotten or just don't know that warframes are the center of everything here and the weapons are just warframe tools nothing else.

Magnetize uses weapon bullets as a tool to do more damage so we would have to nerf all firearms? NO, it's a mechanic, all warframes have mechanics, just learn to use them and stop crying, seriously It's as if you told me that they would have to nerf the frost globe since it does true damage and not to mention if you put it together with viral status proc you can oneshot everything regardless of the level or armor that the enemies have, does that deserve a nerf? NO, Since abilities carry processes and strategy to achieve those things. All abilities use energy, there are a thousand ways to get energy but the enemies have ways to take away this energy and they have a way to counter all types of abilities but, the weapons are completely different and even more so the AOE weapons, they already clean everything without really needing anything, Infinitely dropping ammo and that's without  counting mods that allow any ammo to work for these weapons. The nerf is justified,  you do not understand it is up to you.

 

[Grey_Fenn]

Sounds like the devs envision people using AoE weapons some of the time then switching to secondary or melee to conserve ammo, and I don't see that happening.  People will find ways to use AoE weapons continually or just stop using them if nerfed badly enough.

 

I support the intention here, but ammo nerfing will be a failure.  It severely penalizes any weapon with low max ammo (most of which are not overpowered AoE spam weapons) while failing to reduce the power of those weapons that are a problem.  

[0_The_F00l]

18 minutes ago, Grey_Fenn said:

Sounds like the devs envision people using AoE weapons some of the time then switching to secondary or melee to conserve ammo, and I don't see that happening.  People will find ways to use AoE weapons continually or just stop using them if nerfed badly enough.

 

I support the intention here, but ammo nerfing will be a failure.  It severely penalizes any weapon with low max ammo (most of which are not overpowered AoE spam weapons) while failing to reduce the power of those weapons that are a problem.  

Well it currently penalises weapons with low damage per shot but higher ammo pool , so there will be a shift for sure. And it is kinda the point.

There are very few weapons that have both a low ammo pool and are non aoe , mostly snipers , bows and and some shotguns, which already had a low ammo pickup and rare drops, these will actually see an increase in ammo availability based on what has been proposed.

So your assumption of penalizing these weapons is not quite accurate.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Grey_Fenn:

Sounds like the devs envision people using AoE weapons some of the time then switching to secondary or melee to conserve ammo, and I don't see that happening.  People will find ways to use AoE weapons continually or just stop using them if nerfed badly enough.

 

I support the intention here, but ammo nerfing will be a failure.  It severely penalizes any weapon with low max ammo (most of which are not overpowered AoE spam weapons) while failing to reduce the power of those weapons that are a problem.  

they probably want to program something like bramma. so hardly any ammunition and you only get 1 arrow.
It is not possible to play properly with it. and you have to run hysterically in circles looking for ammunition.

and if that's not enough and people still use aoe weapons, then there's probably an immediate buggy "line of sight" for all aoe weapons.
do you often see khoras with 1 skill? yes.... "line of sight" does its job.

little will change for players with gear. because even most sp alerts can be played with fulmin (mk8 weapon from the market).
only arbi defs will be a waste of time when it comes to kuva.

[BR31]

10 часов назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

Wouldnt the AoE weapons that are under question also be outliers? so its ok to have one set of outliers be accessible but not another? Not quite logically sound is it? And the current change i think is a good start to find that middle ground.

 

They are outliers in content, where you can clear them yes, but they also falloff ealier .
And it also takes in account their outliers, since there are aoe weapons, vanilla launchers , for example.
Who will loose to non aoe incarnon weapons. So is it a really only aoe problem that people are using as the greatest evil?
Not their outliers?
Grendel can nuke fast, we have enough tools to buff not just status, but dot damage ,which doesn't come from status.


For your another responses i will try to answer with a more meta-picture if you will .
Because you comeback to only yourself again and use the same arguments with a different cover.
My test is not for ego boosting, It's for metrics. That's what i meant about a forum user before, where i did not mean anything wrong behind.
But many for some reason take it as a trigger word. I will use a vet or a long time player instead, if it's a more comfortable word for you.
I can complete the test with a stug with a tank frame solo , with activating the tower (yet again a usual sp kuva surv ). But that doesn't make stug broken.
And not something we should balance around. I will comeback to this in a bit later.
_____________________
I don't know where most of warframe's money come from the most- but it's a safe bet to say-that's a target audience of any game.
The another grinding game, which took many advices from warframe, inlcuding how to make tennocon alike event, some of the game skills.
Quite often they took a mirror approach to warframe (it was way too extreme and people didn't like it last year, but they praised and supported it since 2013 to 2021).
Essentially they always gave more options and buffed endgame , said that new players exp is of course important, but endgame is more important and it's ok most people
won't be able to do all content.   And there a reason for it- they openly stated that most of their income is long time playing whales. And ones you reach the begging of endgame (maps)- they "got your soul" . So it makes sense.
____________________
Now who got the most changes over years in waframe? Is it reasonable to say that it's a target audience?
Long time players and more skilled players got way more loot from void towers->relic system, which made it more acceptable and primed sets became significantly cheaper .
Some of the sets were 500s and 1000s of plat not vaulted , because it did not exist.
Now a rotational frame set costs about 40-60 range, since 2018-2019. Rotational frame is what i refer to :
frame gets a release and his relics are farmable for 2 years.  To prove a point, i'm on wfmarket atm, nidus is 43, harrow 49, etc .
Some changes in price depend on how many axi and golden part they have as well. But the change is obvious.
It's not something new and it's not happened since aoe launchers buff .

Every open worlds difficulty was nerfed.
Plains of eidolon economy rebalance (was it for long time players, which already had everything long time ago? the ones who clear all content in a month-6months top?)
Wolf's tankiness nerfed.
Kuva liches nerfed.
Railjack tankiest units nerfed.

We got a v1.0 and 2.0 sp kuva farms, which required a lot more of gear and time- nerfed.


I don't think it's illogical to portrait the targeted audience , based on that.


The longer the player plays warframe- the less reason he has to drop his real money,
He has plat stocks, which he can multiply much higher than new/mid player on average.
Rich gets richer.
The more changes you make, the faster you rota the meta- the more you make the discrepancy between long times players and ones that aren't.
And that's why people with 1000s of hours and 1000s of messanges on soc warframe platforms are more likely to clear any test you throw at them,
while most of an active playerbase won't be able to do it .
______________________

Upcoming changes are a bit different from many prev times. Pablo works a lot, hope he's doing well and having his deserved rest from time to time.
Since why do you think we're getting sp fissures before crossplay?
Some people are concerned about not getting full squads (i play during primed eu hours and don't have a problem myself, but people do).
That's a smart way to fix one of the main issues of aoe complaints- a disruptive gameplay, players don't have enough enemies left to kill .

It's not an aoe unique feature. That's effective players issue and long timed players are the highest % of them, which use more mechanics than others -will always disrupt and
leave others to collect loot. Regardless how many changes you'll do .


Matchmaking with a reason to divide high eff players from less eff.  is one of the ways of doing it .
 

[0_The_F00l]

44 minutes ago, BR31 said:

They are outliers in content, where you can clear them yes, but they also falloff ealier .
And it also takes in account their outliers, since there are aoe weapons, vanilla launchers , for example.
Who will loose to non aoe incarnon weapons. So is it a really only aoe problem that people are using as the greatest evil?
Not their outliers?
Grendel can nuke fast, we have enough tools to buff not just status, but dot damage ,which doesn't come from status.


For your another responses i will try to answer with a more meta-picture if you will .
Because you comeback to only yourself again and use the same arguments with a different cover.
My test is not for ego boosting, It's for metrics. That's what i meant about a forum user before, where i did not mean anything wrong behind.
But many for some reason take it as a trigger word. I will use a vet or a long time player instead, if it's a more comfortable word for you.
I can complete the test with a stug with a tank frame solo , with activating the tower (yet again a usual sp kuva surv ). But that doesn't make stug broken.
And not something we should balance around. I will comeback to this in a bit later.
_____________________
I don't know where most of warframe's money come from the most- but it's a safe bet to say-that's a target audience of any game.
The another grinding game, which took many advices from warframe, inlcuding how to make tennocon alike event, some of the game skills.
Quite often they took a mirror approach to warframe (it was way too extreme and people didn't like it last year, but they praised and supported it since 2013 to 2021).
Essentially they always gave more options and buffed endgame , said that new players exp is of course important, but endgame is more important and it's ok most people
won't be able to do all content.   And there a reason for it- they openly stated that most of their income is long time playing whales. And ones you reach the begging of endgame (maps)- they "got your soul" . So it makes sense.
____________________
Now who got the most changes over years in waframe? Is it reasonable to say that it's a target audience?
Long time players and more skilled players got way more loot from void towers->relic system, which made it more acceptable and primed sets became significantly cheaper .
Some of the sets were 500s and 1000s of plat not vaulted , because it did not exist.
Now a rotational frame set costs about 40-60 range, since 2018-2019. Rotational frame is what i refer to :
frame gets a release and his relics are farmable for 2 years.  To prove a point, i'm on wfmarket atm, nidus is 43, harrow 49, etc .
Some changes in price depend on how many axi and golden part they have as well. But the change is obvious.
It's not something new and it's not happened since aoe launchers buff .

Every open worlds difficulty was nerfed.
Plains of eidolon economy rebalance (was it for long time players, which already had everything long time ago? the ones who clear all content in a month-6months top?)
Wolf's tankiness nerfed.
Kuva liches nerfed.
Railjack tankiest units nerfed.

We got a v1.0 and 2.0 sp kuva farms, which required a lot more of gear and time- nerfed.


I don't think it's illogical to portrait the targeted audience , based on that.


The longer the player plays warframe- the less reason he has to drop his real money,
He has plat stocks, which he can multiply much higher than new/mid player on average.
Rich gets richer.
The more changes you make, the faster you rota the meta- the more you make the discrepancy between long times players and ones that aren't.
And that's why people with 1000s of hours and 1000s of messanges on soc warframe platforms are more likely to clear any test you throw at them,
while most of an active playerbase won't be able to do it .

I dont think you answered any of my points, nor did you actually add anything to the topic at hand with this reply. I actually cant understand how any of this is relevant to AoE ammo changes.

The only thing i see is that you believe new players should be able to do everything just as easily as experienced ones, because there is a history of DE nerfing the difficulty of the content over time,  that is just not how life or games in general work.

you start weak and you acquire things over time, and you also get increasingly difficult challenge over time. DE has coddled the community a little too long that any sort of challenge is met with cries and tantrums.

Earn your power , instead of expecting tings to stay just as easy forever.

57 minutes ago, BR31 said:

Upcoming changes are a bit different from many prev times. Pablo works a lot, hope he's doing well and having his deserved rest from time to time.
Since why do you think we're getting sp fissures before crossplay?
Some people are concerned about not getting full squads (i play during primed eu hours and don't have a problem myself, but people do).
That's a smart way to fix one of the main issues of aoe complaints- a disruptive gameplay, players don't have enough enemies left to kill .

It's not an aoe unique feature. That's effective players issue and long timed players are the highest % of them, which use more mechanics than others -will always disrupt and
leave others to collect loot. Regardless how many changes you'll do .


Matchmaking with a reason to divide high eff players from less eff.  is one of the ways of doing it .
 

Yes, having actual content to apply that power while still being challenged should be good ,

And letting new players not be overwhelmed by more experiences players is defintely one of the ways , i agree.

But this again , has nothing to do with the ammo changes.

 

[tomasabura]

I wonder if the devs have considered about making AoE weapons only explode when it actually hits an enemy? You can see it in the dev recording that people are just running around making explosions on their feet (or surfaces near enemies). Nerfing the explosion radius and ammo drops doesn't fix that but if they added a requirement for the explosion to go off - lets say actually hitting something first, players would make effort actually aiming the damn gun.

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, tomasabura said:

I wonder if the devs have considered about making AoE weapons only explode when it actually hits an enemy? You can see it in the dev recording that people are just running around making explosions on their feet (or surfaces near enemies). Nerfing the explosion radius and ammo drops doesn't fix that but if they added a requirement for the explosion to go off - lets say actually hitting something first, players would make effort actually aiming the damn gun.

That's not bad , but i think it would be rather punishing if it did nothing on hitting surfaces.

They already kinda tested this with the tonkor augment , that gives it a bonus reload speed if you directly hit an enemy.

And the tiberon prime where headshots with burst fire added crit up to 500% and misses reduced it.

Something similar would be interesting... But would probably be too punishing for players that can't even be bothered to pick up and manage ammo.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb tomasabura:

aiming the damn gun.

then you can play a pvp game right away. I don't need such nonsense in pvE games.
Above all, the enemies have the intellect of a pickled cucumber.

[BR31]

1 час назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

I dont think you answered any of my points, nor did you actually add anything to the topic at hand with this reply. I actually cant understand how any of this is relevant to AoE ammo changes.

 

The same way as i see you refusing to see my arguments. I don't try to convince you. I typed all of that for other people to see your lines, my lines and
decide what hits more check boxes for them .

You also sidetracked earlier by a lot and the more side problems mentioned - the more cans of worms will be opened.

"Yes, having actual content to apply that power while still being challenged should be good ,

And letting new players not be overwhelmed by more experiences players is defintely one of the ways , i agree.

But this again , has nothing to do with the ammo changes."

What are the current ways for newer /mid players to compete with a full geared vet rn  ? If the skill difference won't be critical?
If they don't use top-6 aoe launchers? Can those players farm those in a time period , where de is expecting players to continue playing,
before moving to other games?  Or they won't bother getting there, because it's too much for them.
This game has grinds which take just as much time as full mmos, but there's no incentive to do a lot of them.
You'll nerf them more than they can take- they are gonna leave.

Standard cliche: " ok , they should leave " - doesn't work here.
I just gave you a list of evidence against it . They do care about that playerbase and do the most changes to that group.

 

[BR31]

Cases of extremely new players running 70% full bramma builds  on week 1-2 could be countered as well.

Do you know- if a weapon has mr requirement 15 and everywhere else you won't be able to use it earlier,
but you can use with liches?

Another one- why have they made acolyte arcanes tradeable? When i farmed my first sets - it took a fair chunk of time
of sp content, not opening few relics and buying it . Rn full merciless arcane costs 20 plat on wf market.
You don't expect problems if people can buy it by a cost of a frame slot? Because many vets only play sp and oversupply the market.
What do you think- the problem will be fixed with sp fissure release and price should go up? The opposite.
Make them untradeable, way-way-way less people will use aoe to the same extent.
 

[0_The_F00l]

52 minutes ago, BR31 said:

The same way as i see you refusing to see my arguments. I don't try to convince you. I typed all of that for other people to see your lines, my lines and
decide what hits more check boxes for them .

I am not refusing any of your argument related to the topic, i am disagreeing with a majority of them , there is a difference. Trying to convince others is the whole point of arguments -_-

I have no idea why you would want to mention things unrelated to the topic. You are only derailing the thread and making yourself less convincing.

52 minutes ago, BR31 said:

You also sidetracked earlier by a lot and the more side problems mentioned - the more cans of worms will be opened.

"Yes, having actual content to apply that power while still being challenged should be good ,

And letting new players not be overwhelmed by more experiences players is defintely one of the ways , i agree.

But this again , has nothing to do with the ammo changes."

What are the current ways for newer /mid players to compete with a full geared vet rn  ? If the skill difference won't be critical?
If they don't use top-6 aoe launchers? Can those players farm those in a time period , where de is expecting players to continue playing,
before moving to other games?  Or they won't bother getting there, because it's too much for them.
This game has grinds which take just as much time as full mmos, but there's no incentive to do a lot of them.
You'll nerf them more than they can take- they are gonna leave.

Standard cliche: " ok , they should leave " - doesn't work here.
I just gave you a list of evidence against it . They do care about that playerbase and do the most changes to that group.

 

You have given me no evidence , only opinions , 

And the part you highlighted was in response to you requesting seperation of high efficiency and low efficiency players.

And i am agreeing with it , being able to sperate them in matchmaking would help.

42 minutes ago, BR31 said:

Cases of extremely new players running 70% full bramma builds  on week 1-2 could be countered as well.

Do you know- if a weapon has mr requirement 15 and everywhere else you won't be able to use it earlier,
but you can use with liches?

Another one- why have they made acolyte arcanes tradeable? When i farmed my first sets - it took a fair chunk of time
of sp content, not opening few relics and buying it . Rn full merciless arcane costs 20 plat on wf market.
You don't expect problems if people can buy it by a cost of a frame slot? Because many vets only play sp and oversupply the market.
What do you think- the problem will be fixed with sp fissure release and price should go up? The opposite.
Make them untradeable, way-way-way less people will use aoe to the same extent.
 

Yes , the ability to bypass the MR lock is not helping but you still need to know how to build it properly , which is easily accessible through different tutorials and tools ,

but one could always bypass it in the past with platinum and help of other players as well.

All farmable and tradable items lose value over time as more players acquire it , DE does not control the inter player trade values it's players that set these.

Again not sure if exactly relevant to the point at hand. But yes , making such powerful weapons easily accessible for MR 0 players is something that does add to the problems.

[BR31]

There were many complaints in this thread about low ar people running stuff they were not supposed too.

That's a reason why i highlighted arcanes ,esp merciless.
It gives more ammo , reload and base damage, allowing you to equip more ammo/mag capacity in return.
You can get carried in few incursions atm, get an unlock adapter or use essence from alerts and twitch drops,
drop 20 pl - and skip a huge part of a progression. If they would make it account bound
- they would need to kill acolytes a lot . And if they would just always leech- people would leave their party and they are left with nothing
until they can actually do it themselves.

Way less people were playing bramma after its first nerf and reduction of arrows.
It was still good, but i met it super rarely in pubs, negative feedback on the soc platforms also was reduced to a point,
where you could barely see it.  Easy access to merciless made situation significantly worse.

[_LotusPrime_]

4 hours ago, BR31 said:

 

 

not to discourage you from talking or anything but thats what they do , once or twice see some argument  they dont like , its the' you didnt adress my point' card 

[BR31]

1 минуту назад, _LotusPrime_ сказал:

not to discourage you from talking or anything but thats what they do , once or twice they hear something they dont like to see , its the' you didnt adress my point' card 

I just typed things which in my opinion are correct and tried not to just operate with pure emotions and used the data i had an access to.

I hope that people caring about the issue , who stumbled upon this thread - will be able to decide and judge for themselves,
which parties provided more sense.

[_LotusPrime_]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

 

Earn your power , instead of expecting tings to stay just as easy forever.

Yes, having actual content to apply that power while still being challenged should be good ,

 

oh boy , so at one hand we have 'earn your power' sure no objections , but then its okay when DE just takes it away with sheer force ?? 

and then you say DE should keep with the power creep to match for the content that is consumed at high levels , i agree to that too , but dont you see , that the latter wont happen if the power you earned is in constant danger from broad strokes with 'disruptive gameplay ' (aka patch notes apaologia speech , this week we found this way of doing bounty to be 'unintended')