Knockdowns should be changed.

[ReverseKinetix]

6 hours ago, trst said:

There are alternatives (not equivalent to removing an entire gameplay mechanic but nothing should be able to do that). As I already said just use the mobility system or use tankier builds. And, again, you can learn the system to get out of them faster or just roll spamming to get up as soon as you can.

Also you can literally roll into any attack that would knock you down and nothing will happen to you. If you see an Arson Eximus or you see it's fire wave you can literally roll into it and suffer no knockdowns. Plus you get 75% damage resistance for the entire roll as well.

 

The issue here is you want a free pass from learning how to manage this system and you don't want to use any of the other methods to negate/prevent it from being a problem. And that's not saying "git gud" that's saying you should learn the bare minimum or use the systems in place. Instead of the game being dumbed down to cater to your refusal to use the tools at your disposal. There are, in fact, ways to counter knockdowns and none of them are "demanding" in any way to use.

And no, I don't use P.Sure Footed because I use mobility to my advantage. If I ever do need to get into range of anything with a knockdown effect I'm rolling into them or immediately after I get in range of them. And if I do get knocked down rolling out of it takes a second at most in which shield gating keeps me invulnerable (if shields even go down in that period) and I'm still getting the damage resistance from rolling afterwards.

Rolling works sometimes. Let me explain, a continuous shockwave, or pulse (like from arson eximus) makes rolling worthless since the hitbox lingers longer than your roll. I am 95% sure of this fact because it is what prompted me to make this post; mirage in eso for weapon levelling while being swamped by arson eximus who I could not jump over or roll through to prevent knockdown. Replies like these assume that I am completely unaware of certain mobility options that sometimes prevent things like this. I am not unaware. I actually use rolls to go through corpus lasers because I know they prevent knockdown. But this is not 100% certainty.

"The issue here is you want a free pass from learning how to manage this system and you don't want to use any of the other methods to negate/prevent it from being a problem. And that's not saying "git gud" that's saying you should learn the bare minimum or use the systems in place. Instead of the game being dumbed down to cater to your refusal to use the tools at your disposal. There are, in fact, ways to counter knockdowns and none of them are "demanding" in any way to use."

There is no truth in this statement. For starters, there is no real way to skillfully manage this system - there is only prevention methods that come from mods and abilities. Let's see you perfectly roll through any incoming grapple or shockwave from behind. If this was the jackal boss fight then your argument would have ground to stand on, but it just isn't like that in actual missions. Also, you want to act like my suggestion would be a dumbing down of the game when it really isn't since combat games like Monster Hunter (a wildly successful game series with emphasis on combat) do exactly what I suggest. If you call my suggestion a dumbing down then you must also agree for that Monster Hunter's no damage knockdown design is a dumbing down. After all, you can dodge roll as a way to "counter" the incoming knockdown, yet Monster Hunter - a difficult combat game - does not punish the player harshly when knocked down by preventing incoming damage.

Edit: I don't know why this was posted twice.

[ReverseKinetix]

2 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

No. Heck no. We're already tanky in the regular star chart and newer players actually need interferences like knockdowns to better understand the enemies and solutions. 

Sidenote - I'm noticing more threads requesting less and less threats and interferences. Do you guys not understand that we really need more enemy push back, not less? There has to be some sort of engagement by default. 

Sure, new players need to learn how to engage with the system, I agree. So why does this minor problem for star chart level missions still plague experienced players at end game missions? The problem with this sentiment is that it is predicated on the idea/belief that there is a consistent 100% way to avoid knockdowns through skill alone when there isn't. You know what else is annoying about knockdowns? Being knockdowned and losing control of your character is this fast-paced, chaotic game. The jarring nature of knockdowns themselves are enough of an incentive as any to push players into engaging with the game. Now that we have this push, what solution do players actually have to negate knockdowns? Inconsistent mods, helminth (gated behind large progression since I think Titania's Spellbind is the only subsumed ability that will prevent knockdowns), operator stuff (specifically need to do war within), and PSF (a 400-day login reward). So do you see the problem now? There is no good way to prevent knockdowns until you have progressed way into the game. Even then, the best methods require sacrificing a make or break ability slot or operator school just to deal with it until you get to 400 days of logging in (I have over 1000 hours in the game and haven't even got to 200 days yet, so this option is not really an option for a vast majority of the player base).

"Sidenote - I'm noticing more threads requesting less and less threats and interferences. Do you guys not understand that we really need more enemy push back, not less? There has to be some sort of engagement by default."

Once again, I agree. However, there needs to be an actual, proper way to engage the player outside of them being knocked to the ground - usually outside of their control with no way to possibly prevent it - and then suffering death or heavy damage as a result. As it stands now, there are simply too many incoming knockdowns and no real counters outside of prevention measures for this sentiment to make sense. This is not me asking for DE to remove one of the only few problems we might face in a mission, this is me suggesting that the system be made fairer. Other, more-engaging games already implement my suggestion as a fair way to balance knockdowns, so why does suggesting warframe do the same make me against player engagement?

[trst]

39 minutes ago, ReverseKinetix said:

Rolling works sometimes. Let me explain, a continuous shockwave, or pulse (like from arson eximus) makes rolling worthless since the hitbox lingers longer than your roll. I am 95% sure of this fact because it is what prompted me to make this post; mirage in eso for weapon levelling while being swamped by arson eximus who I could not jump over or roll through to prevent knockdown. Replies like these assume that I am completely unaware of certain mobility options that sometimes prevent things like this. I am not unaware. I actually use rolls to go through corpus lasers because I know they prevent knockdown. But this is not 100% certainty.

"The issue here is you want a free pass from learning how to manage this system and you don't want to use any of the other methods to negate/prevent it from being a problem. And that's not saying "git gud" that's saying you should learn the bare minimum or use the systems in place. Instead of the game being dumbed down to cater to your refusal to use the tools at your disposal. There are, in fact, ways to counter knockdowns and none of them are "demanding" in any way to use."

There is no truth in this statement. For starters, there is no real way to skillfully manage this system - there is only prevention methods that come from mods and abilities. Let's see you perfectly roll through any incoming grapple or shockwave from behind. If this was the jackal boss fight then your argument would have ground to stand on, but it just isn't like that in actual missions. Also, you want to act like my suggestion would be a dumbing down of the game when it really isn't since combat games like Monster Hunter (a wildly successful game series with emphasis on combat) do exactly what I suggest. If you call my suggestion a dumbing down then you must also agree for that Monster Hunter's no damage knockdown design is a dumbing down. After all, you can dodge roll as a way to "counter" the incoming knockdown, yet Monster Hunter - a difficult combat game - does not punish the player harshly when knocked down by preventing incoming damage.

That's why you roll into the wave. The outside of it will knock you back if you hit it at any point, the only way to get knocked down after rolling into it is if you immediately run out of it before the initial wave despawns. And it's only rolling that gives CC immunity, not jumping.

It is dumbing down the game because it would be removing the entire point of being CC'd in the first place, which is to make you vulnerable, while we already have multiple ways to manage it. And it would be dumbing down for another game if it was added in post release while there was already a dozen different ways to mitigate/prevent the issue.

Also "hook" grabs were effectively removed from the game. They now need to hit you and only pull you down if you don't roll, bullet jump, or just kill them within two-ish seconds.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

13 hours ago, ReverseKinetix said:

Sure, new players need to learn how to engage with the system, I agree. So why does this minor problem for star chart level missions still plague experienced players at end game missions?

I think this where I see benefit, not detriment. Minus the massive spoiling of the game via content creators over the years, newer players would eventually learn the ropes, discover the different mods and abilities to reduce knock back and then begin to increase the ranks of those mods and abilities. 

Vets, however, are fully aware of, and most likely possess, all of the top tier mods, operator and warframe abilities to completely offset knock back. We don't have an excuse to not use prime SF, Unairu school other mods and abilities. In other words, it should not be plaguing us at all unless we want to sacrifice a resistance against knock back and, instead, go for another build type. That is a choice though, not a plague.