Knockdowns should be changed.

[ReverseKinetix]

Pretty much just what the title says. Before you get your pitchforks, let me say - this is not about AoE weapons; this IS about all of the enemies that can knock you down with complete ease. PSF is locked behind a 400-day login requirement which is fine. However, many people simply do not have access to this mod, and most frames lack any form of knockdown negation outside of helminth which removes a valuable ability slot and costs energy to maintain. There are mods for faster knockdown recovery like handspring, and we also have regular sure footed. The issue is that knockdowns are deadly most of the time unless you're doing base starchart missions which removes most reasons to run these mods since even one knockdown will likely kill you. I think it is a bit much at the moment. I find myself using Unairu just for poise because of this issue. I am not suggesting to remove knockdowns, or to rework certain mods for them to be more consistent with what they do.

Here is my suggestion, make knockdowns turn the player invincible until they get back up. I am a fan of Monster Hunter games, and this is what they do for knockdowns. I think this change would be very fair and well-balanced. You lose out on dps from being on your behind, but it is no longer a death sentence at higher level content. It will be enough of a bother that people will build around countering it while not being too punishing for not preventing it.

I would like to hear feedback on this matter from the community

[LillyRaccune]

I do not feel like PSF is not a required mod. Power Drift and Fortitude can block knockdowns and would be a decent mod for various non-min/max builds.

Additionally DE did add several mechanics to reduce or even negate knockdown and stagger. Rolling, jumping (not just to dodge, but also to recover), aim-gliding. Doing these things with the right timing helps a lot.

[PublikDomain]

I'd like to see what I've been calling "skillful counters". Debuffs that can be applied to the player should have a skill-based counter that the player can use to avoid/resolve the interaction if they're playing the game with more than one engaged brain cell.

• When ragdolled, mashing jump or maybe melee causes your character to grab for a surface and stop sliding, letting you come to a stop and get up sooner.
• When lit on fire, rolling removes some time on the remaining procs.
• When frozen, doing a ground slam chips the ice off and unfreezes you.
• When disrupted, casting an ability ends the energy drain where it is.

And we already have this here and there, so it's not like it's some crazy new idea:

• When knocked down, pressing the Jump button right before you hit the ground causes your character to roll into a handspring and get up (though it sounds like the timing and telegraphing of this mechanic is not very well tuned).
• When grappled, pressing the melee key cuts the grapple cable (though this one seems a bit overzealous - it feels like grapples never stick regardless of my actions anymore).
• When an enemy makes a melee attack, a manual block will parry the attack and open the enemy to a finisher (which, like knockdown recoveries, is poorly telegraphed and explained).
• Gas clouds are visible and can be exited.
• Knockdown shockwaves can be hopped over.
• Prone requires a jump to stand up.

It'd also be nice to have some general QoL regarding knockdowns, like a brief stagger immunity so you can't get stunlocked, as well as the complete removal of some of the particularly annoying interactions like K-Drive ragdolls and Archwing tumbling on contact.

[(PSN)Unstar]

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'd like to see what I've been calling "skillful counters". Debuffs that can be applied to the player should have a skill-based counter that the player can use to avoid/resolve the interaction if they're playing the game with more than one engaged brain cell.

• When knocked down, pressing the Jump button right before you hit the ground causes your character to roll into a handspring and get up. You still get interrupted, but it's shorter than a full knockdown.

This is actually already in the game.  I forget the exact timing but it was implemented sometime within the last few years: if you are knocked down (whether from self-knockdown or something else) there's a specific time you can press a button to handspring up.  I never use it because I'm lazy and don't care but it's there!

[cute_moth.npc]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

When knocked down, pressing the Jump button right before you hit the ground causes your character to roll into a handspring and get up. You still get interrupted, but it's shorter than a full knockdown.

This exists and is in the game right now, it just kinda sucks.

The telegraph is really weak and is almost completely invisible depending on your Warframe + energy colour combo (you can honestly only see it at all if you have a dark coloured Warframe + very neon energy colour), the timing is really weird (recovery is usually a twitch thing in most games, in Warframe there's a weird wait for it moment) and the reward for doing it is very small because the interruption moment where you can recover is most of the way through the knockdown animation.. but it's there ^^;

[TARINunit9]

I just want Mania's 100% stunlocking removed. He hits through immunity, so it's ba zero-to-death if you don't do something lucky like sneak out in Z-kid mode

[PublikDomain]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

This is actually already in the game.  I forget the exact timing but it was implemented sometime within the last few years: if you are knocked down (whether from self-knockdown or something else) there's a specific time you can press a button to handspring up.  I never use it because I'm lazy and don't care but it's there!

18 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

This exists and is in the game right now, it just kinda sucks.

The telegraph is really weak and is almost completely invisible depending on your Warframe + energy colour combo (you can honestly only see it at all if you have a dark coloured Warframe + very neon energy colour), the timing is really weird (recovery is usually a twitch thing in most games, in Warframe there's a weird wait for it moment) and the reward for doing it is very small because the interruption moment where you can recover is most of the way through the knockdown animation.. but it's there ^^;

I'll have to take a look, I guess I should append my post with "and make these interactions that already exist actually noticeable". Doesn't do any good to have these if they aren't telegraphed.

[cute_moth.npc]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

I'll have to take a look, I guess I should append my post with "and make these interactions that already exist actually noticeable". Doesn't do any good to have these if they aren't telegraphed.

It almost doesn't do any good, period, even when you know it's there ^^;

The timing on it is so mechanically poor. Anyways, put on some dark Warframe paint and like bright yellow or orange energy, knock yourself over with something and you will see it. It appears a moment after your Warframe makes full contact with the ground. 

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb ReverseKinetix:

Here is my suggestion, make knockdowns turn the player invincible until they get back up.

the goal of the whole thing is to annoy the players... there used to be an insta self-kill mechanic.

I think they will program team damage with vote kick rather than that...

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'll have to take a look, I guess I should append my post with "and make these interactions that already exist actually noticeable". Doesn't do any good to have these if they aren't telegraphed.

DE's own video:

https://content.invisioncic.com/Mwarframe/monthly_2020_03/840104750_StaggerVideo(slomoonrecovery).mp4.3438e9031d673ee07093212da6331ee1.mp4

The prompt is that yellow-ish flash on the frame.  (Customized with frame energy color.) 

With everything going on on screen, I'm sure most players have no idea it's there.  And frankly, there's not much reason to know about it.

[trst]

No.

P.Sure Footed is not a requirement. If you don't want to be knocked down then actually use the mobility system in the game or use a tankier frame/build.

And if you are knocked down try learning the timing to jump out of it (it's when your frame "flashes" your energy color) or just spam roll so you can get out of it early.

[Tyreaus]

20 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

With everything going on on screen, I'm sure most players have no idea it's there.  And frankly, there's not much reason to know about it.

IDK for sure but I think the timing flash and window both might be related to knockdown recovery speed. So if you speed up recovery, the flash lasts even less time. Have a slow enough refresh rate and it just won't show for you.

Ever since it came out, even in isolated testing scenarios like the Simulacrum, I've never noticed it. I'm also running Warframe on a potato. So I'm pretty sure, at minimum, you can have framerates that will hide the indicator. And if knockdown speed cuts it down even further, well...I believe the common parlance is "big oof".

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, ReverseKinetix said:

PSF is locked behind a 400-day login requirement which is fine.

See...  You already Lost Me...

2 hours ago, ReverseKinetix said:

 

Here is my suggestion, make knockdowns turn the player invincible until they get back up.

Hmmmmm.... I don't Know How I feel about This one.... It's nice that I won't Die from Getting Knocked Down but at the Same Time this Doesn't make me Get knocked down any less often so it would still piss me off....

Either Way I'm Getting Primed Sure Footed in 16 Days ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ReverseKinetix]

1 hour ago, trst said:

No.

P.Sure Footed is not a requirement. If you don't want to be knocked down then actually use the mobility system in the game or use a tankier frame/build.

And if you are knocked down try learning the timing to jump out of it (it's when your frame "flashes" your energy color) or just spam roll so you can get out of it early.

Completely ignores the point I'm trying to make here. I said nothing about psf being a requirement. All I was trying to say is that it has no real equivalent that isn't too demanding. Anyway psf is not the main point of the post. The main point is that knockdowns are incredibly annoying and almost certain death on SP missions. Most of it stems from the new eximus abilities that can constantly knock you to the ground. CC does not work against them and they are tanky enough to become a problem. Being thrown on my rear every time I go near them (looking at you arson eximus) has no real counter. As many people have already said, the knockdown counter in game is clunky, unrewarding, and hard to even notice while playing; it is not a good alternative. So the issue is this, outside of psf there isn't a good/consistent way to stop this from happening that isn't too demanding. Helminth takes up an entire ability slot while psf is an exilus mod. The other mods don't negate the problem (which is what you need for something like this). Poise exists and I have no problem with it other than I feel forced into using it when I prefer the slow and energy abilities of zenurik. The issue, once again, is not that psf is required; it's that knockdowns are much too punishing that you are screwed without taking care of them. Many players just won't have access to preventing knockdowns until late game, and even those options are very restricting to an entire build. The solution for this isn't giving everyone psf, it also isn't removing knockdowns, the solution is to change how knockdowns work to give us an actual way to counter/block them that isn't completely disruptive to the rest of the gameplay or make knockdowns less punishing by preventing incoming damage while knockdown.

Also, giving the Warframe equivalent of "git gud" as your response isn't very good. For starters it is extremely difficult to actually see incoming knockdowns since enemies come from all directions, eximus ignore abilities, and the overall chaos on screen makes it hard to see a grapple or shockwave. Bringing a tankier frame would work, but in your own words "No." There are 49 frames in the game. A small portion of those frames have a way to prevent knockdowns. Of those frames even less have a proper kit to handle content where knockdowns are an issue anyway. Let's be generous and say there are 10 frames who meet these requirements. Okay well now I'm stuck playing 1/5 of the roster. If you don't see an inherit issue with this then I dont know why I'm even bothering with a response.

Lastly, as stated previously and in other comments - the current counter system for knockdowns is a joke and you cant tell me you actually use it.

Also, to you and everyone else who will say psf isn't a requirement, do you have it? Because if you have it then stop using it for a few sessions, and you'll see why people complain about this stuff because it is an incredible sacrifice for a build to have any other way of knockdown prevention compared to an (albeit expensive) exilus mod.

[kamisama85]

2 hours ago, ReverseKinetix said:

I would like to hear feedback on this matter from the community

So you want PSF to be changed because you don't have it and your suggested change is to apply invincible status while knocked down as a way to make up for not having it.

A poor suggestion. People have logged in 400 days or more for this reward for many years now. You should do the same.
There are plenty of alternative ways to negate the effect of knockdown or pad yourself up more to withstand being down:

Constitution 40% Faster Recovery from knockdown
Fortitude 20% Resistance to knockdown
Handspring (Exilus mod) 160% Faster recovery from knockdown
Powerdrift (Exilus) 30% resistance to knockdown
Sure Footed (Exilus) 60% Resistance to knockdown

At the end of the day, you can put out an ANCIENT HEALER SPECTER to assist you on your runs in SP to give you 90% damage cut. You will literally not die.

There are so many alternatives that you have willingly overlooked but you'd rather choose the option to strip everyone of PSF because you don't have it.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

IDK for sure but I think the timing flash and window both might be related to knockdown recovery speed. So if you speed up recovery, the flash lasts even less time. Have a slow enough refresh rate and it just won't show for you.

I can't verify it 100%, but I think that's a good call.  I'm too lazy to compare them side by side or count frames, but just eyeballing it, both the indicator and the window look and feel shorter to me when I slot Constitution and Handspring.

It's sort of academic though.  There's even less benefit to using the maneuver with recovery speed equipped, and the game encourages us to negate knockdown entirely through build choices.

[ReverseKinetix]

8 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

So you want PSF to be changed because you don't have it and your suggested change is to apply invincible status while knocked down as a way to make up for not having it.

A poor suggestion. People have logged in 400 days or more for this reward for many years now. You should do the same.
There are plenty of alternative ways to negate the effect of knockdown or pad yourself up more to withstand being down:

Constitution 40% Faster Recovery from knockdown
Fortitude 20% Resistance to knockdown
Handspring (Exilus mod) 160% Faster recovery from knockdown
Powerdrift (Exilus) 30% resistance to knockdown
Sure Footed (Exilus) 60% Resistance to knockdown

At the end of the day, you can put out an ANCIENT HEALER SPECTER to assist you on your runs in SP to give you 90% damage cut. You will literally not die.

There are so many alternatives that you have willingly overlooked but you'd rather choose the option to strip everyone of PSF because you don't have it.

Does anyone on this forum know how to read. I said, and I quote, "PSF is locked behind a 400-day login requirement which is fine." I literally said it was fine. I am not asking for psf to be changed or given to me. This entire post is about making knockdowns less punishing since, outside of psf, it is too demanding to prevent knockdowns. Knockdown recovery speed is pointless since you are most likely going to die from one knockdown. Even one second of not having control over your character can be costly in SP and equivalent content.

Also, I have not willingly overlooked anything. At this point I believe you didn't even read my post and just rage-replied when you saw the title. I mention several alternatives, but they all share the same problem of being too demanding. Poise is imo the next best option, but that locks you into one operator school. The knockdown resistance mods will not matter unless they negate 100% of all knockdowns simply because even one knockdown can be deadly. And guess what? It takes three of those mods to reach 100% negation, so you tell me if you'd invest that much?

"you'd rather choose the option to strip everyone of PSF because you don't have it." Literally where. LITERALLY WHERE DID I SAY THIS. PSF was mentioned in one sentence in my original post, yet you're the third imbecile who made the entirety of their response centered around this one sentence (in which I did not even complain about people having the mod). I swear you either didn't read my post, lack reading comprehension, or made it say what you wanted it to say. Also, if you so belove your psf mod and all it's glory then that very sentiment is admission in and of itself that it has no real alternative.

[Tyreaus]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's sort of academic though.

Of course - just saying it may be why people don't even know it exists. You almost have to build a particular way to see it, and building that way almost assumes you already know it's there lol

[trst]

1 hour ago, ReverseKinetix said:

Completely ignores the point I'm trying to make here. I said nothing about psf being a requirement. All I was trying to say is that it has no real equivalent that isn't too demanding. Anyway psf is not the main point of the post. The main point is that knockdowns are incredibly annoying and almost certain death on SP missions. Most of it stems from the new eximus abilities that can constantly knock you to the ground. CC does not work against them and they are tanky enough to become a problem. Being thrown on my rear every time I go near them (looking at you arson eximus) has no real counter. As many people have already said, the knockdown counter in game is clunky, unrewarding, and hard to even notice while playing; it is not a good alternative. So the issue is this, outside of psf there isn't a good/consistent way to stop this from happening that isn't too demanding. Helminth takes up an entire ability slot while psf is an exilus mod. The other mods don't negate the problem (which is what you need for something like this). Poise exists and I have no problem with it other than I feel forced into using it when I prefer the slow and energy abilities of zenurik. The issue, once again, is not that psf is required; it's that knockdowns are much too punishing that you are screwed without taking care of them. Many players just won't have access to preventing knockdowns until late game, and even those options are very restricting to an entire build. The solution for this isn't giving everyone psf, it also isn't removing knockdowns, the solution is to change how knockdowns work to give us an actual way to counter/block them that isn't completely disruptive to the rest of the gameplay or make knockdowns less punishing by preventing incoming damage while knockdown.

Also, giving the Warframe equivalent of "git gud" as your response isn't very good. For starters it is extremely difficult to actually see incoming knockdowns since enemies come from all directions, eximus ignore abilities, and the overall chaos on screen makes it hard to see a grapple or shockwave. Bringing a tankier frame would work, but in your own words "No." There are 49 frames in the game. A small portion of those frames have a way to prevent knockdowns. Of those frames even less have a proper kit to handle content where knockdowns are an issue anyway. Let's be generous and say there are 10 frames who meet these requirements. Okay well now I'm stuck playing 1/5 of the roster. If you don't see an inherit issue with this then I dont know why I'm even bothering with a response.

Lastly, as stated previously and in other comments - the current counter system for knockdowns is a joke and you cant tell me you actually use it.

Also, to you and everyone else who will say psf isn't a requirement, do you have it? Because if you have it then stop using it for a few sessions, and you'll see why people complain about this stuff because it is an incredible sacrifice for a build to have any other way of knockdown prevention compared to an (albeit expensive) exilus mod.

There are alternatives (not equivalent to removing an entire gameplay mechanic but nothing should be able to do that). As I already said just use the mobility system or use tankier builds. And, again, you can learn the system to get out of them faster or just roll spamming to get up as soon as you can.

Also you can literally roll into any attack that would knock you down and nothing will happen to you. If you see an Arson Eximus or you see it's fire wave you can literally roll into it and suffer no knockdowns. Plus you get 75% damage resistance for the entire roll as well.

 

The issue here is you want a free pass from learning how to manage this system and you don't want to use any of the other methods to negate/prevent it from being a problem. And that's not saying "git gud" that's saying you should learn the bare minimum or use the systems in place. Instead of the game being dumbed down to cater to your refusal to use the tools at your disposal. There are, in fact, ways to counter knockdowns and none of them are "demanding" in any way to use.

And no, I don't use P.Sure Footed because I use mobility to my advantage. If I ever do need to get into range of anything with a knockdown effect I'm rolling into them or immediately after I get in range of them. And if I do get knocked down rolling out of it takes a second at most in which shield gating keeps me invulnerable (if shields even go down in that period) and I'm still getting the damage resistance from rolling afterwards.

[Tiltskillet]

59 minutes ago, ReverseKinetix said:

Knockdown recovery speed is pointless

Are you talking about endurance runs?  Up through sub-hour SP runs, that's not my experience at all though I always have some ehp to back it up. 

[0_The_F00l]

I never use PSF , but that's a personal preference.

There is the option of momentum , i have had good result with rolling at the right time to avoid knockdowns.

And some weapons with momentum animations also stop knockdowns , though you still get knock backs.

The recent Scorpio change is nice , pulling enemies that grapple you with a bullet jump.

But that being said , a few i frames when knocked down wouldnt hurt too badly , as long as players don't abuse it to stay down and out.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, ReverseKinetix said:

Pretty much just what the title says. Before you get your pitchforks, let me say - this is not about AoE weapons; this IS about all of the enemies that can knock you down with complete ease. PSF is locked behind a 400-day login requirement which is fine. However, many people simply do not have access to this mod, and most frames lack any form of knockdown negation outside of helminth which removes a valuable ability slot and costs energy to maintain. There are mods for faster knockdown recovery like handspring, and we also have regular sure footed. The issue is that knockdowns are deadly most of the time unless you're doing base starchart missions which removes most reasons to run these mods since even one knockdown will likely kill you. I think it is a bit much at the moment. I find myself using Unairu just for poise because of this issue. I am not suggesting to remove knockdowns, or to rework certain mods for them to be more consistent with what they do.

Here is my suggestion, make knockdowns turn the player invincible until they get back up. I am a fan of Monster Hunter games, and this is what they do for knockdowns. I think this change would be very fair and well-balanced. You lose out on dps from being on your behind, but it is no longer a death sentence at higher level content. It will be enough of a bother that people will build around countering it while not being too punishing for not preventing it.

I would like to hear feedback on this matter from the community

No. Heck no. We're already tanky in the regular star chart and newer players actually need interferences like knockdowns to better understand the enemies and solutions. 

Sidenote - I'm noticing more threads requesting less and less threats and interferences. Do you guys not understand that we really need more enemy push back, not less? There has to be some sort of engagement by default. 

[ReddyDisco]

8 hours ago, ReverseKinetix said:

Here is my suggestion, make knockdowns turn the player invincible until they get back up.

That's fair, elden ring has this. enemies don't insta kill you while you get knocked down

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I came in ready to disagree, but eh, after reading your post, I don't really disagree. I think some people may have ran with some assumptions and overlooked your suggestion, which I think was the main point of your post (feel free to correct me) and the prior points were just to establish context and framing for your suggestion. 

I very rarely use PSF. I even delayed getting it. Weird possibly, but I liked the challenge of avoiding knockdowns by playing better (meaning, better game sense, enemy prioritising, learning to roll more, map/tile set awareness, using line of sight and cover more effectively, using the ninja flip feature you can do to minimise knock downs etc etc) but I acknowledge this is a play style preference I have developed. Can also be terribly annoying mechanic otherwise, and can understand why people would want ways to minimise this. Unairu has been making me a bit lazier/complacent unintentionally (I mostly use it for the Armour and Shield Strip). 

I had actually assumed that when Warframes were knocked down, we were invulnerable... I just though, we were punished, since there was a small pause after we get up, but before we can move, that lead to potentially dying. If thats not the case, which it sounds like, then some Iframes or damage reduction, in my opinion, wouldn't be that bad of an idea. Its hard for me to say with passion either way though, I can't ever remember dying after being knocked down, when I do die, its dumb interactions or not paying attention and then Last Gasp kicks in. So basically, I wouldn't likely, personally notice. Still, could be a nice QOL for others, especially those who don't have access to PSF, Unairu, etc though in some ways, Last Gasp as a passive also helps. Same with some of the new ways to bullet jump or roll out of knockdowns (the longer type that drag on).

[ReverseKinetix]

6 hours ago, trst said:

There are alternatives (not equivalent to removing an entire gameplay mechanic but nothing should be able to do that). As I already said just use the mobility system or use tankier builds. And, again, you can learn the system to get out of them faster or just roll spamming to get up as soon as you can.

Also you can literally roll into any attack that would knock you down and nothing will happen to you. If you see an Arson Eximus or you see it's fire wave you can literally roll into it and suffer no knockdowns. Plus you get 75% damage resistance for the entire roll as well.

 

The issue here is you want a free pass from learning how to manage this system and you don't want to use any of the other methods to negate/prevent it from being a problem. And that's not saying "git gud" that's saying you should learn the bare minimum or use the systems in place. Instead of the game being dumbed down to cater to your refusal to use the tools at your disposal. There are, in fact, ways to counter knockdowns and none of them are "demanding" in any way to use.

And no, I don't use P.Sure Footed because I use mobility to my advantage. If I ever do need to get into range of anything with a knockdown effect I'm rolling into them or immediately after I get in range of them. And if I do get knocked down rolling out of it takes a second at most in which shield gating keeps me invulnerable (if shields even go down in that period) and I'm still getting the damage resistance from rolling afterwards.

Rolling works sometimes. Let me explain, a continuous shockwave, or pulse (like from arson eximus) makes rolling worthless since the hitbox lingers longer than your roll. I am 95% sure of this fact because it is what prompted me to make this post; mirage in eso for weapon levelling while being swamped by arson eximus who I could not jump over or roll through to prevent knockdown. Replies like these assume that I am completely unaware of certain mobility options that sometimes prevent things like this. I am not unaware. I actually use rolls to go through corpus lasers because I know they prevent knockdown. But this is not 100% certainty.

"The issue here is you want a free pass from learning how to manage this system and you don't want to use any of the other methods to negate/prevent it from being a problem. And that's not saying "git gud" that's saying you should learn the bare minimum or use the systems in place. Instead of the game being dumbed down to cater to your refusal to use the tools at your disposal. There are, in fact, ways to counter knockdowns and none of them are "demanding" in any way to use."

There is no truth in this statement. For starters, there is no real way to skillfully manage this system - there is only prevention methods that come from mods and abilities. Let's see you perfectly roll through any incoming grapple or shockwave from behind. If this was the jackal boss fight then your argument would have ground to stand on, but it just isn't like that in actual missions. Also, you want to act like my suggestion would be a dumbing down of the game when it really isn't since combat games like Monster Hunter (a wildly successful game series with emphasis on combat) do exactly what I suggest. If you call my suggestion a dumbing down then you must also agree for that Monster Hunter's no damage knockdown design is a dumbing down. After all, you can dodge roll as a way to "counter" the incoming knockdown, yet Monster Hunter - a difficult combat game - does not punish the player harshly when knocked down by preventing incoming damage.