Hydroid rework/reboot concept. Make him better, but don't change too much.

[Zendoker]

A small preface.
I know that the idea of changing the hydroid is not new and walks around the community. I also realize that probably this thread will not be noticed by DE and they either don't have plans to rework the hydroid at all, or they are already completely different. Nevertheless, I want to share my ideas and yet I hope that they will one day find a response.
For convenience, I decided to write its characteristics for each ability, as they are displayed in the game.
I also want to apologize in advance if my English is bad. Alas, it is not my native language.

General idea.
Since the hydroid is a water elemental warframe, I thought that it would be possible to put an emphasis on the magnet and corrosion in it. Since imagining myself the influence of water, I first of all think about it. 

Passive
Unfortunately, the current passive ability is of little use, and therefore I propose to completely change it.
Killing an enemy while under Magnet status will regenerate the hydroid's shields. 10% for each stack.
Killing an enemy while affected by the Corrosion status will grant the Hydroid a buff lasting 5 seconds, increasing its armor by 100 per stack. The armor buff will not stack. That is, the maximum it will be possible to increase the armor of the hydroid by 1000. Thus, the passive ability will slightly increase its survivability.
Since the hydroid is a water warframe, he should be immune to the water magnet status on the plains of eidolon.

1st ability. Tempest Barrage
Remove ability charge. Explosions will not knock down enemies, but stun them, as now the constant scattering of enemies complicates aiming and interferes with melee. (The enemy can simply fly out of melee range.) The explosion from the ability has a 100% guaranteed chance to inflict Magnet Status. (This figure will depend on strength.)

Energy cost: 25
Base damage: 300 magnetic. (Scaling with strength)
Magnetic status chance: 100% (Scaling with strength)
Base radius: 12m. (Scaling with range)
Explosion radius: 6m. (Scaling with range)
Base duration: 12 s. (Scaling with duration)
Augument: No changes.

2nd ability. Tidal Surge (Can be pressed or hold.)
Press:
(The idea is that after weakening the armor and shields, it will be easier to break it.)
The Hydroid releases a wave that strips armor by 8%/10% per stack of Corrosion on the target and shields by 8%/10% per stack of Magnet. The percentage of removing armor and shields scales with strength. (Due to scaling, I'm not sure which is better, 8% or 10%)

Hold:
A bit better version of abilitty that we have right now.
Hydroid itself turns into a wave. (Retaining the ability to remove armor and shields.) Multiplies the range and radius of the wave by 2x and still making hydroid invincible. In this state, mobs are also pull after the hydroid. However, after the end of the wave, they will fall right in front of him. (Instead of flying forward like they do now.)

Energy cost: 50
Base radius (I think the radius explains much better that we are talking about the "width" of the wave.): 8m
Defence strip: 8%/10% (Scaling with strenght)
Base damage: 450 impact (Scaling with strength)
Also guaranteed impact proc. (Don't scaling)
Speed: 30m/s
Duration: 1s (Displaying the duration will make it easier to understand the ability, despite the fact that it is not scaled.)
Augument: Working on both versions of ability.

Minor but fun idea: This ability would allow a hydroid to move through the water in the plains of eidolon.

3rd ability. Undertow (Can be pressed or hold) 
This ability need the biggest change.
Press: 
The hydroid creates a water trap that lasts 30s. The trap inflicts the Corrosion status on enemies every second with a 100% chance (Scales with strength) and slows them by 25% (Unscaled). 
Hold: 
The hydroid dives into his water trap, becoming invincible and healing itself for 20%/s (Actually 2%/0.1s), which scales with strength. In this state, he сonsumes 2 energy/s. Also he can press the fire button to pull the enemy underwater (Doesn't cost energy). (To optimize the game and not repeat the Grendel situation, the number of underwater enemies is limited to 10.) Enemies underwater (Sinking) will take true damage equal to 2%/s of their health.

Energy cost: 75
Base radius: 15 (Scaling with range)
Base duration: 30s (Scaling with duration)
Slowdown: 25% (Unscale)
Status chance: 100% (Scaling with strength)
Energy/s in the trap: 2.
Damage: 5%/s (Scaling with strength)
Augument: Healing 20%/s (Actually 2%/0.1s) instead of 30%/1.5%

4th ability. Tentacle Swarm (Can be pressed or hold.)
Remove ability charge.
Press:
Hydroid creates a swarm of tentacles, their number will be equal to 16. The ability no longer captures mobs, now just damaging them and applying the impact damage status effect. Each enemy standing on the water trap increases the damage of the tentacle swarm by 2%/s. Also, while "Sinking" enemy dying 10% of his HP is transferred to the damage of the tentacle swarm.

Since the ability will be aimed at dealing damage and having, it seems logical to me to make the damage universal, or rather tau damage. Also, universal damage will emphasize the reference to the kraken, as to some kind of mythical monster of incredible strength. The ability also has a 50% chance to inflict Magnet or Corrosion. This mechanic will make it easier to use the 2nd ability and add more synergy.
Hold:
Hydroid plunges the enemy into a water trap. This is to avoid requiring the player to dive for increased damage.

The damage increase will be multiplicative. (The damage increases each time from the current value, and not the base one.) If there are no mobs in the water trap, then the damage will be reduced by 5%/s of the current value.

Energy cost: 100
Base radius: 5 (Scaling with range)
Base duration: 25s (Scaling with duration)
Base damage: 300 tau. (Scaling with strength)
Damage scaling: 2%/s (Scaling with strength)
Sinking enemy damage scaling: 10% (Unscale)
Chance to inflict Corrosion: 50% (Scales with strength)
Chance to inflict magnet: 50% (Scales with strength)
Augument: To get an additional drop, it is enough for the tentacle to hit the mob.



Sheesh, it took me 4 hours to write this... 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Zendoker

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 hour ago, Zendoker said:

General idea.
Since the hydroid is a water elemental warframe, I thought that it would be possible to put an emphasis on the magnet and corrosion in it. Since imagining myself the influence of water, I first of all think about it.

I think Corrosive and Cold would make more sense? I know hes a Progenitor for Magnetic Kuva/Tenet weapons but it still makes no sense.

1 hour ago, Zendoker said:

Passive
Unfortunately, the current passive ability is of little use, and therefore I propose to completely change it.
Killing an enemy while under Magnet status will regenerate the hydroid's shields. 10% for each stack.
Killing an enemy while affected by the Corrosion status will grant the Hydroid a buff lasting 5 seconds, increasing its armor by 100 per stack. The armor buff will not stack. That is, the maximum it will be possible to increase the armor of the hydroid by 1000. Thus, the passive ability will slightly increase its survivability.
Since the hydroid is a water warframe, he should be immune to the water magnet status on the plains of eidolon.

Im really going to hate my self for proposing this...

Perhaps his Passive could be called Crushing depth, causing his Impact procs to have a chance to also proc slash, kinda like Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage mods as a form of DoT? Tho the percentage would be small and fixed, would not stack with the effects from the mods but would proc independently.

Along with that he could have bonus to Cold Procs causing him to apply 2 stacks instead of one from any source, this would allow him to slow enemies down faster when using abilities or weapons that apply Cold.

1 hour ago, Zendoker said:

1st ability. Tempest Barrage
Remove ability charge. Explosions will not knock down enemies, but stun them, as now the constant scattering of enemies complicates aiming and interferes with melee. (The enemy can simply fly out of melee range.) The explosion from the ability has a 100% guaranteed chance to inflict Magnet Status. (This figure will depend on strength.)

Im ok with removing the charge mechanic tho it would reduce the potential damage of the ability, instead the charge could remain but be sped up?

As for the damage type, base should be Cold + Impact with forced procs to stagger/slow and slowly make enemies caught in the barrage be opened to Mercy Kills which would be great for higher level missions where the skill doesnt scale as efficient, the Augment would change the Cold damage into Corrosive so the ability could be built for either CC or damage.

1 hour ago, Zendoker said:

2nd ability. Tidal Surge (Can be pressed or hold.)
Press:
(The idea is that after weakening the armor and shields, it will be easier to break it.)
The Hydroid releases a wave that strips armor by 8%/10% per stack of Corrosion on the target and shields by 8%/10% per stack of Magnet. The percentage of removing armor and shields scales with strength. (Due to scaling, I'm not sure which is better, 8% or 10%)

Hold:
A bit better version of abilitty that we have right now.
Hydroid itself turns into a wave. (Retaining the ability to remove armor and shields.) Multiplies the range and radius of the wave by 2x and still making hydroid invincible. In this state, mobs are also pull after the hydroid. However, after the end of the wave, they will fall right in front of him. (Instead of flying forward like they do now.)

Energy cost: 50
Base radius (I think the radius explains much better that we are talking about the "width" of the wave.): 8m
Defence strip: 8%/10% (Scaling with strenght)
Base damage: 450 impact (Scaling with strength)
Also guaranteed impact proc. (Don't scaling)
Speed: 30m/s
Duration: 1s (Displaying the duration will make it easier to understand the ability, despite the fact that it is not scaled.)
Augument: Working on both versions of ability.

Minor but fun idea: This ability would allow a hydroid to move through the water in the plains of eidolon.

The problem with this kind of mobility ability is it tends to move too fast and gives players very little controlability which makes it near useless in some tilesets, also its a bit of a nuisance the camera rushing through the map.

Instead of it working as currently is, Tidal Surge would instead shoot the wave outwards from Hydroid, crashing into enemies along the way dealing damage to them on impact and dragging them along. Once Tidal Surge reaches its max range it would flow back towards Hydroid bringing enemies along dealing a second instance of damage and knocking them down leaving them vulnerable to Melee attacks.

If Tidal Surge hits a wall before it reaches its max range it will deal its damage multiplied by the distance it traveled and travel back bringing the enemies it caught.

Building for Range would affect both the distance the wave travels and its width allowing it to serve as both a CC and damage source.

1 hour ago, Zendoker said:

3rd ability. Undertow (Can be pressed or hold) 
This ability need the biggest change.
Press: 
The hydroid creates a water trap that lasts 30s. The trap inflicts the Corrosion status on enemies every second with a 100% chance (Scales with strength) and slows them by 25% (Unscaled). 
Hold: 
The hydroid dives into his water trap, becoming invincible and healing itself for 20%/s (Actually 2%/0.1s), which scales with strength. In this state, he сonsumes 2 energy/s. Also he can press the fire button to pull the enemy underwater (Doesn't cost energy). (To optimize the game and not repeat the Grendel situation, the number of underwater enemies is limited to 10.) Enemies underwater (Sinking) will take true damage equal to 2%/s of their health.

Energy cost: 75
Base radius: 15 (Scaling with range)
Base duration: 30s (Scaling with duration)
Slowdown: 25% (Unscale)
Status chance: 100% (Scaling with strength)
Energy/s in the trap: 2.
Damage: 2%/s (Scaling with strength)
Augument: Healing 20%/s (Actually 2%/0.1s) instead of 30%/1.5%

Im not very fond of the Hold to Dive idea, my main issue with Undertow is that Hydroid is completely useless wile hes inside the water.

I would replace the ability with Whirlpool.

Hydroid creates a large Whirlpool that draps enemies and slowly draws them towards the center, dealing Cold damage and procs per second. Enemies killed within the Whirlpool have a 50% chance to drop either a Health orb or Energy orb.
Wile Hydroid and his allies are within the Whirlpool they regenerate Hp/s.

As Synergy: Casting Tempest Barrage on the Whirlpool causes all barrages that strike the pool to deal its damage to all enemie caught in it.

1 hour ago, Zendoker said:

4th ability. Tentacle Swarm (Can be pressed or hold.)
Remove ability charge.
Hydroidy still spawns a swarm of tentacles, but now their rate is 24 of which 16 will spawn no further than 8 meters from the center of the ability, and the rest can spawn in the same way as now. This will make it easier to use the ability in large rooms and partially fix the issue where people deliberately lowered the radius to use this ability. The ability's damage will scale with the level of the enemy. Also, for each "Sinking" enemy, the ability's damage will increase by 2%/s max buff 300%.
Since the ability will be aimed at dealing damage and having, it seems logical to me to make the damage universal, or rather tau damage. Also, universal damage will emphasize the reference to the kraken, as to some kind of mythical monster of incredible strength. The ability also has a 50% chance to inflict Magnet or Corrosion. This mechanic will make it easier to use the 2nd ability and add more synergy.

Energy cost: 100
Base radius: 12 (Scaling with range)
Base duration: 25s (Scaling with duration)
Base damage: 300 tau. (Scaling with strength)
Damage scaling: 2%/s (Scaling with strength)
Chance to inflict Corrosion: 50% (Scales with strength)
Chance to inflict magnet: 50% (Scales with strength)
Augument: To get an additional drop, it is enough for the tentacle to hit the mob.



Sheesh, it took me 4 hours to write this... 

I think by "Universal Damage" you ment "True Damage"? Having it deal Tau damage makes no sense given its not a Sentient creature and only Sentients deal Tau Damage.

Having more Tentacles for me doesnt mean more damage, just means more stuff flinging from one corner to the other and for some players more lag.

I would rather take advantage of an existing feature of the ability in order to boost its damage potential, mainly the Kraken head that appears when you first cast it then vanishes afterwards, instead i would have the Kraken head remain at the center where the ability was cast, it would continuously spit large blobs of acid at nearby enemies that are not being attacked by the tentacles, dealing Corrosive damage in area and applying Corrosive procs.

The tentacles them self i think between 8~12 are more than enough, have them deal True damage to enemies that increases every time they slam the enemy down tho add a threshold where enemies under 35% health have a chance to be "Drawn Under", the tentacle would briefly sink back into the floor causing a large splash, taking that enemy along and instantly killing it and spitting out the loot with a chance for extra loot. The tentacle would reemerge soon after and seek out another nearby target.

As Synergy: Casting Tentacle swarm in Whirlpool would change the Whirlpool`s base damage from Cold to Corrosive.

I dont want Hydroid to be come just another "Press Skill and Forget" frame, with what i proposed, 3 of his abilities can be synergies simultaneously to increase damage output.

[Zendoker]

Цитата

I think Corrosive and Cold would make more sense? I know hes a Progenitor for Magnetic Kuva/Tenet weapons but it still makes no sense.

I cannot agree. A magnet makes just as much sense as cold. In the end, we are not talking about "Perfectly Pure" water, but water with impurities can very easily harm electronics ... (And this is exactly what a magnet does in a warframe, to simplify.) Cold has the right to life, but I do not I wanted to make cold, also because there are yareli, it seems to me that it is much more suitable for a frame using water and cold.
 

3 часа назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

Im really going to hate my self for proposing this...

Perhaps his Passive could be called Crushing depth, causing his Impact procs to have a chance to also proc slash, kinda like Internal Bleeding/Hemorrhage mods as a form of DoT? Tho the percentage would be small and fixed, would not stack with the effects from the mods but would proc independently.

Along with that he could have bonus to Cold Procs causing him to apply 2 stacks instead of one from any source, this would allow him to slow enemies down faster when using abilities or weapons that apply Cold.

The idea of impact and bleed will be of little use if the stat is low, because a weapon that has a lot of impact will probably already have this mod, and a weapon that has a low impact will work too rarely, if the percentage is too high, it will probably be new esha (Just spam weapons with the right status and you win, which is even worse than "Press and forget")
The cold idea isn't bad.
 

3 часа назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

As for the damage type, base should be Cold + Impact with forced procs to stagger/slow and slowly make enemies caught in the barrage be opened to Mercy Kills which would be great for higher level missions where the skill doesnt scale as efficient, the Augment would change the Cold damage into Corrosive so the ability could be built for either CC or damage.

Changing abilities completely with arguments is a pretty bad idea. Therefore, the augment in any case should just add the status of corrosion. As for impact procs, this is probably a sound idea.
 

3 часа назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

The problem with this kind of mobility ability is it tends to move too fast and gives players very little controlability which makes it near useless in some tilesets, also its a bit of a nuisance the camera rushing through the map.

Instead of it working as currently is, Tidal Surge would instead shoot the wave outwards from Hydroid, crashing into enemies along the way dealing damage to them on impact and dragging them along. Once Tidal Surge reaches its max range it would flow back towards Hydroid bringing enemies along dealing a second instance of damage and knocking them down leaving them vulnerable to Melee attacks.

If Tidal Surge hits a wall before it reaches its max range it will deal its damage multiplied by the distance it traveled and travel back bringing the enemies it caught.

Building for Range would affect both the distance the wave travels and its width allowing it to serve as both a CC and damage source.

I'm aware of the mobility issues but wanted to keep this version for some fun. Perhaps pull the enemies to the hydroid on hold can be an idea.
 

3 часа назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

Im not very fond of the Hold to Dive idea, my main issue with Undertow is that Hydroid is completely useless wile hes inside the water.

I would replace the ability with Whirlpool.

Hydroid creates a large Whirlpool that draps enemies and slowly draws them towards the center, dealing Cold damage and procs per second. Enemies killed within the Whirlpool have a 50% chance to drop either a Health orb or Energy orb.
Wile Hydroid and his allies are within the Whirlpool they regenerate Hp/s.

As Synergy: Casting Tempest Barrage on the Whirlpool causes all barrages that strike the pool to deal its damage to all enemie caught in it.

My original idea was to keep it useless while diving. It was supposed to be just an opportunity to get away for a breather. My original idea was to keep it useless while diving. It was supposed to be just an opportunity to get away for a breather.
 

3 часа назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

I think by "Universal Damage" you ment "True Damage"? Having it deal Tau damage makes no sense given its not a Sentient creature and only Sentients deal Tau Damage.

Having more Tentacles for me doesnt mean more damage, just means more stuff flinging from one corner to the other and for some players more lag.

I would rather take advantage of an existing feature of the ability in order to boost its damage potential, mainly the Kraken head that appears when you first cast it then vanishes afterwards, instead i would have the Kraken head remain at the center where the ability was cast, it would continuously spit large blobs of acid at nearby enemies that are not being attacked by the tentacles, dealing Corrosive damage in area and applying Corrosive procs.

The tentacles them self i think between 8~12 are more than enough, have them deal True damage to enemies that increases every time they slam the enemy down tho add a threshold where enemies under 35% health have a chance to be "Drawn Under", the tentacle would briefly sink back into the floor causing a large splash, taking that enemy along and instantly killing it and spitting out the loot with a chance for extra loot. The tentacle would reemerge soon after and seek out another nearby target.

By "Universal" I meant "Universal". It was important for me to make the damage independent of the enemy's defense type. Tau damage is the same regardless of the type of protection and in fact this is the main reason why I named it. It is not necessary to write that he is a tau. Yes, it looks like a crutch.

With regards to the problem with the fact that "Pressed and forgot." I understand this, which is why I wanted to remove armor after being affected by other abilities. Yes, he will not require you to press as many buttons as Gauss, but alas, it is difficult to create frames that require constant pressing of all abilities.
And my main idea was not to change skills too much.
 
I'm going to rewrite the 4th ability a bit in connection with your ideas. For this ability I thought least of all. (Tired at the time of writing.)

And a little about the warframe that uses water and applies cold. Yareli is already such a frame, and some of your ideas are very similar to her abilityes. It seems to me that you can use it to create the concept of Yareli rework.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Zendoker

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2023-07-07 at 10:43 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Im ok with removing the charge mechanic tho it would reduce the potential damage of the ability, instead the charge could remain but be sped up?

Or they could just change it so you have the full damage of the charged version of the ability on a single button press instead? Charge-mechanics suck in this game and there is zero reason to have them, especially on a frame as awful as Hydroid. He needs those mechanics removed, permanently. 

Also, Barrage does zero meaningful damage anyways, so who cares if we loose some damage. It was never going to kill anything very fast, even at mid-tier.

On 2023-07-07 at 10:43 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Once Tidal Surge reaches its max range it would flow back towards Hydroid bringing enemies along dealing a second instance of damage and knocking them down leaving them vulnerable to Melee attacks.

If Tidal Surge hits a wall before it reaches its max range it will deal its damage multiplied by the distance it traveled and travel back bringing the enemies it caught.

Whilst I agree with you saying the mobility of Tidal Surge is an issue due to how clunky it is, your proposed changes just sound way too overcomplicated for a single ability. It also sounds extremely clunky to implement. Ragdoll physics in this game have always been annoying and this change honestly sounds like it would enemies even more annoying to hit. IMO a much simpler change like maybe instead of the wave pushing enemies it instead rushes through them applying a debuff or something like that, instead of all this faffing about with pushing, pulling and flailing enemies around. I know its thematically accurate and realistic for a rouge wave to causing humanoids to go tumbling all over the place, but in Warframe that sort of thing is just annoying and not useful at all.

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2023-07-07 at 8:36 PM, Zendoker said:

I also realize that probably this thread will not be noticed by DE and they either don't have plans to rework the hydroid at all, or they are already completely different.

DE are planning on reworking Hydroid after TennoCon, according to Pablo. So we've got a ray of hope through the dark stormy clouds that follow Hydroid around wherever he goes.

On 2023-07-07 at 8:36 PM, Zendoker said:

Since the hydroid is a water elemental warframe, I thought that it would be possible to put an emphasis on the magnet and corrosion in it.

Magnetism is a near useless status proc that only really affects Shields and even then there are much better options for dealing with them, like Slash or just getting a Warframe that can outright remove shields. Corrosive, while it has taken a heavy nerf, could still be useful, so just go with that instead. Someone else already suggest that Cold would be a much better option thematically and practically in the game, which is true. After all the sea is damn cold most of the time.

On 2023-07-07 at 8:36 PM, Zendoker said:

The explosion from the ability has a 100% guaranteed chance to inflict Magnet Status.

Again, not really a very useful proc. Change it to Cold instead.

On 2023-07-07 at 8:36 PM, Zendoker said:

The Hydroid releases a wave that strips armor by 8%/10% per stack of Corrosion on the target and shields by 8%/10% per stack of Magnet. The percentage of removing armor and shields scales with strength. (Due to scaling, I'm not sure which is better, 8% or 10%)

Not really a fan of this relying on stacks for ability effectiveness to be honest. We've already seen DE try to implement this kind of thing with Lavos and its just clunky as all hell to set-up and use effectively. How about instead of relying on stacks its just another thing affected by ability strength. The last thing Hydroid needs is to be made overcomplicated.

On 2023-07-07 at 8:36 PM, Zendoker said:

The hydroid dives into his water trap, becoming invincible

This is basically just his old Undertow. That is not what we want out of this ability. We don't want to sit in a puddle doing nothing whilst our health regens. Hydroid needs a much more active way of regenerating health. I would remove ability to go into a puddle entirely to be honest. Have Hydroid be survivable in another more interesting way.

On 2023-07-07 at 8:36 PM, Zendoker said:

4th ability. Tentacle Swarm (Can be pressed or hold.)

You've got some decent ideas here, but again it sounds just a little too reliant on proc'ing enemies. Again, Lavos is a frame built around status proc'ing enemies and he's not exactly great. All this set-up just sounds really unnecessary frankly. I know sometimes people like to really think in-depth about rework proposals, but sometimes it can be a bit too complicated. Hydroid needs less complication as that is partly why he is in such a bad state in the first place. He needs a full ability rework, but it doesn't and should not need to be this over-designed. He just needs a simple set of abilities that do their job effectively and easily and in a timely fashion.

[Zendoker]

В 10.07.2023 в 12:10, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

Magnetism is a near useless status proc that only really affects Shields and even then there are much better options for dealing with them, like Slash or just getting a Warframe that can outright remove shields. Corrosive, while it has taken a heavy nerf, could still be useful, so just go with that instead. Someone else already suggest that Cold would be a much better option thematically and practically in the game, which is true. After all the sea is damn cold most of the time.

As I said. I want Yareli to be a water warframe with cold, not a hydroid. I understand that the magnet is of little use, therefore, he himself added the usefulness of the magnet to the hydroid.  Let's hope one day they remake the magnet.

 

В 10.07.2023 в 12:10, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

Again, not really a very useful proc. Change it to Cold instead.

In this regard, I wrote that, among other things, the ability will stagger. With 3 enabled, the duration of the stagger should increase (since all enemy animations are slowed down) which I think would be quite useful already.

 

В 10.07.2023 в 12:10, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

Not really a fan of this relying on stacks for ability effectiveness to be honest. We've already seen DE try to implement this kind of thing with Lavos and its just clunky as all hell to set-up and use effectively. How about instead of relying on stacks its just another thing affected by ability strength. The last thing Hydroid needs is to be made overcomplicated.

In this case, I can only categorically disagree. Lavos status dependency mechanic only affects damage and works quite well. Lavos is overcomplicated more due to the many synergies and cooldowns and elemental integrations. The hydroid mechanics are simpler.
 

Цитата

Have Hydroid be survivable in another more interesting way.

The new passive ability does just that.

Otherwise, I agree with you, especially with regards to the complication of ability 4. Alas, it is really very difficult for me to come up with something based on the current one.
 

[TheGodofWiFi]

4 hours ago, Zendoker said:

As I said. I want Yareli to be a water warframe with cold, not a hydroid. I understand that the magnet is of little use, therefore, he himself added the usefulness of the magnet to the hydroid.  Let's hope one day they remake the magnet.

Why can't Hydroid and Yareli both be cold frames? There's no rule saying frames cannot do the same kind of damage. Both Saryn and Grendel do Viral damage, Ash, Kullervo and Equinox all do slash damage etc etc.

DE reworking magnetism is basically nothing but a hopeful wish at this point. We have no indication they're going to rework it anytime soon. I think its a very bad idea to make Hydroid's damage magnetic focused on the hope that DE will someday rework him. No, he should just be given a useful proc like cold. There's no point in holding Hydroid back. Giving Hydroid magnetism won't suddenly make the element useful.

4 hours ago, Zendoker said:

In this regard, I wrote that, among other things, the ability will stagger. With 3 enabled, the duration of the stagger should increase (since all enemy animations are slowed down) which I think would be quite useful already.

Stagger and CC in general is not very useful in todays Warframe if that is all you have. Hydroid's abilities should do more than just CC as that has been one of his major problems since release. And again, magnetism is just useless and there is zero point in hoping it will be reworked because we have no indication that it will. He needs a more useful proc.

4 hours ago, Zendoker said:

Lavos status dependency mechanic only affects damage and works quite well.

Working well is not the same thing as being efficient. Lavos can get decent damage with his abilities but the problem is that he takes far too long to set up with all the stacks whereas other frames don't need to worry about that as their abilities are just as effective as they're ever going to be right out of the gate.

You want to implement a Lavos type of stack-reliance-for-ability-effectiveness on Hydroid and I still say this is a very very bad idea. There is a reason why Lavos is not even in the top thirty most-used frames and that's because people do not like frames that take a long time to set up when they could just take a frame like say Ash or Mesa who can do Lavos job far quicker and easier. People like efficiency and convenience and unfortunately Lavos is neither of those things right now.

Adding these kinds of mechanics to Hydroid is not a good idea. It does not matter if he does not have cooldown's on his abilities like Lavos does, its the playstyle and mechanics of having to go through a lot of effort to get the same amount of damage other frames can do 100% more efficiently. Hydroid does not need a change like this, he needs to streamlined, less complicated and more efficient.

Edited July 18, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[Zendoker]

10 часов назад, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

Why can't Hydroid and Yareli both be cold frames? There's no rule saying frames cannot do the same kind of damage. Both Saryn and Grendel do Viral damage, Ash, Kullervo and Equinox all do slash damage etc etc.

Of course they can, but then it will please the situation with the volt and jaira, where one frame is probably just better than the other. In all the examples you listed, only one ability has the same status, but the hydroid will have 3 such abilities. Creating two identical frames with very similar mechanics will create a situation similar to that of the gyra and volt now. Where one frame is simply better than the other in everything.
 

10 часов назад, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

Stagger and CC in general is not very useful in todays Warframe if that is all you have. Hydroid's abilities should do more than just CC as that has been one of his major problems since release. And again, magnetism is just useless and there is zero point in hoping it will be reworked because we have no indication that it will. He needs a more useful proc.

No, it's not useless. CC is the main way to survive at high levels. And can replace other methods if strong enough. Mobs won't be able to deal damage if distracted by beating a dummy or their teammates.
In addition, you contradict yourself, if CC is useless, then why add strong cold, because they are only good for CC. As I said, yes, the magnet is problematic and therefore the abilities give more than just a magnet. 1 ability actually fires quite a few shots. In 1 second, the mob can hit 2-3 explosions. With this frequency, the stagger will be a good enough CC (Again, the ability must be used in conjunction with a trio, which additionally creates CC.)
 

10 часов назад, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

Working well is not the same thing as being efficient. Lavos can get decent damage with his abilities but the problem is that he takes far too long to set up with all the stacks whereas other frames don't need to worry about that as their abilities are just as effective as they're ever going to be right out of the gate.

You want to implement a Lavos type of stack-reliance-for-ability-effectiveness on Hydroid and I still say this is a very very bad idea. There is a reason why Lavos is not even in the top thirty most-used frames and that's because people do not like frames that take a long time to set up when they could just take a frame like say Ash or Mesa who can do Lavos job far quicker and easier. People like efficiency and convenience and unfortunately Lavos is neither of those things right now.

In general, no frame can be more effective than a mirage spamming AoE weapon with infinite ammo.
And if we touch on the difference in efficiency, then:
Let's say that ability 3 removes 10%/stuck, then at 200% of the strength that the most effective armor strip abilities now need to remove 100% of armor, we get that needs 5 stacks, which with a 200% status chance (So as ability status chance also depends on strength) can be reached in 3 seconds. Yes, 3 seconds is a very long period by the standards of the game, however, this is where the explanation for the use of statuses appears. You can apply statuses with weapons and do it very quickly.
Thus, the player has the opportunity to use the weapon as a full-fledged element of his build. If the player does not want this, then there is an augment to the first ability.
As I said, it fires 2-3 shots per second. So at 200% strength, Undertow and Tempest Barrage will trigger at least 6 procs of Corrosion per second. And since other indicators of the hydroid initially became much higher, it is much easier to get 200% strength and more.
2 ability that removes armor while releasing a projectile instantly and it covers a maximum area in 1 second. That is, it will take 2 seconds to remove armor with only abilities in the worst case, which is an adequate time if you remember that the affected area will be large. 
In terms of proc mechanics, both the mechanics of the 4th ability of the lavsoa and the mechanics of the hydroid are more similar to how statuses work now. You need to get a certain number of stacks in order to get maximum power, but these stacks are easy to get, both by the frame itself and by the weapon that the player has. Vryatli someone can call the current virus or CO difficult, and "Activation" with another button will not greatly complicate the gameplay.

Yes, hydroid in this rework will not become a new meta or OP frame, but in a game where all the enemies are stupid sponges with damage, the most effective tactic is just to have more damage than their HP, without any other mechanics. So far, one of, if not the most effective weapon is the Exodia Contagion, and this is simply because it deals insane damage and does not require anything from the player.

[TheGodofWiFi]

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

Of course they can, but then it will please the situation with the volt and jaira, where one frame is probably just better than the other. In all the examples you listed, only one ability has the same status, but the hydroid will have 3 such abilities.

Again, so what? This literally does not matter at all. Hydroid and Yareli having the same damage type does not suddenly mean one will be better than the other.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

No, it's not useless. CC is the main way to survive at high levels.

I never said CC was entirely useless, I said Magnetic was useless. I said that CC is 100% not as essential as you are making it out to be. A frame that only does CC is not very popular. Damage and Utility are the meta in current Warframe.

The way people survive at high levels is through utility not CC. This isn't Tower 4 Survival mate, we're not in 2015 anymore. CC has not been the way people play the game at high levels for nearly a decade at this point. CC is no longer the meta in Warframe as the game has changed over the years. Back in the day CC was king because our damage was not as high and you were encouraged to stay in endless survival missions longer as it earned you more loot from one mission. That is no longer the case anymore though. We have enemies who are immune to CC, can cancel out CC in other enemies and in general, people do not do long survival missions anymore and the few that do, do not take a CC frame. They take frames like Revenant or Octavia, who can scale to the max enemy level without much trouble and its their utility that keeps them alive, not their CC. Revenant has the best tank ability in the game that renders him immune to all damage and Octavia can just turn invisible.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

In addition, you contradict yourself, if CC is useless, then why add strong cold, because they are only good for CC.

Again, I never said CC was useless, I said Magnetic was useless which it is. Either you didn't read properly, or you're trying to put words in my mouth. Slowing enemies can be useful but again, just having an enemy slow is not enough.

Cold is better than Magnetic every single time, because again the magnetic status proc does absolutely nothing to the vast vast majority of enemies, but Cold at the very least affects every single enemy in the game. So it is a much better proc to add. There is literally no benefits to putting Magnetic onto Hydroid as his main damage type, all you are doing there is giving him a useless status proc that will only barely affect like one faction in the entire game.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

the magnet is problematic and therefore the abilities give more than just a magnet.

If it is problematic, then don't give them Magnetic at all. Seriously, Hydroid does not and should not have Magnetic be made his main damage type. Hydroid already has enough problems and you want to add another one? 

It does not matter that his abilities do more, you're not going to justify the magnetic damage in any way. It's a terrible proc.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

In general, no frame can be more effective than a mirage spamming AoE weapon with infinite ammo.

Yes I've heard that one before. Going to extremes seems to be certain peoples forte when it comes to trying to defend bad ideas.

The point of efficiency is that you don't have to be like Mirage, but at the very least you need to provide a viable alternative to something like that, without putting in extra effort. A frame like Lavos is not popular because he is a damage focused Warframe who, while doing decent damage, takes far too long to set up when compared to other frames. People like frames such as Saryn and Mesa because they are quick, easy to use and get their full amount of damage on their abilities out of the gate. There is nothing wrong with liking simplicity and efficiency and subsequently people value that kind of thing in a looter-shooter the most. The aim of the game is to kill as many enemies as possible in a reasonable amount of time and Lavos is not reasonable.

Your changes to Hydroid would make him the same; unreasonable.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

Let's say that ability 3 removes 10%/stuck, then at 200% of the strength that the most effective armor strip abilities now need to remove 100% of armor

Have you been playing Warframe at all in the past six months? The most effective armour stripping ability in the game, Terrify, only needs 167% Power Strength to remove armour and it happens instantly the moment you cast. Likewise, other armour stripping abilities only require 167% Power Strength now as DE lowered the requirements across the board. The only armour-strips in the game requiring 200% Power Strength are the abilities that remove both armour and shields, which is fair.

Even then, reaching 200% Power Strength is incredibly easy nowadays, especially with the Arcane that gives you a free 60% boost to Power Strength outside of your mod set-up.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

Yes, 3 seconds is a very long period by the standards of the game, however, this is where the explanation for the use of statuses appears. You can apply statuses with weapons and do it very quickly. Thus, the player has the opportunity to use the weapon as a full-fledged element of his build. If the player does not want this, then there is an augment to the first ability.
As I said, it fires 2-3 shots per second. So at 200% strength, Undertow and Tempest Barrage will trigger at least 6 procs of Corrosion per second. And since other indicators of the hydroid initially became much higher, it is much easier to get 200% strength and more

Why would I want to do all this faffing about and wait three seconds for armour to be stripped when I could just, you know, take a frame that strips armour not even in one? Terrify, Avalanche, Gaze, Regurgitate, all of these abilities remove armour in less than a single second from the button press. 

Relying on weapons for more status? Mate, you are basically wanting to Hydroid to be another Lavos. People don't want that. We want a Hydroid that is effective right at the start of the mission to the very end, like other meta frames. We do not want all this messing about with status and rubbish like that. You're even shoe-horning in a augment to fix a problem you have created because you know people don't want to deal with your proposed changes. Its incredible.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

That is, it will take 2 seconds to remove armor with only abilities in the worst case, which is an adequate time if you remember that the affected area will be large. 

The area will not be as large as Terrify, Gaze, Regurgitate and Avalanche as the range they can have is insane with the right build and do not require ridiculous stack reliance.

12 hours ago, Zendoker said:

In terms of proc mechanics, both the mechanics of the 4th ability of the lavsoa and the mechanics of the hydroid are more similar to how statuses work now. You need to get a certain number of stacks in order to get maximum power, but these stacks are easy to get, both by the frame itself and by the weapon that the player has.

Again, people do not want another Lavos mate. Hydroid especially does not and should not be working similarly to Lavos. People do not want to rely on weapons to make a Warframe effective, they want the Warframe to be effective on its own. People do not want to mess around waiting for stacks to build up, they want to press a button and just have the ability work. Again, this is why frames like Saryn and Mesa are in the top five most used Warframes across all platforms; they are simple, easy to use and effective. That is what Hydroid needs to be if he is ever to have a spot in the meta and your changes simply will not do that, because they are copying a frame that is already not in the meta.

People want Hydroid to be fixed so he is efficient and does good damage and/or utility that pushes him into the higher Warframe ranks and making him like Lavos will not do this. There is a reason Lavos is not even in the top-thirty most used frames mate and its because he is just not efficient enough at doing a job other frames can do far better

I apologise, but your ideas are not good at all and would not bring Hydroid up into the meta. Hydroid needs to be less complicated and not reliant on stacks for his effectiveness. That is what people want. Not this. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[Zendoker]

@TheGodofWiFi I originally wanted to go into detail about your mistakes in the statements and the idea, but the post turned out to be too long, so forgive me, but I will reduce most of them to one argument and only analyze the main one.
I really misunderstood what you wanted to say about control, but you are still wrong in saying that it is of little use. CC is the second most effective way to survive after abilities that give complete invulnerability. It is CC that is used if you don't have the "Press X to be invincible" ability.

For example: To protect the object of defense at Circuit level 10k, it was enough for me to use the 1st ability of the revenant. At the same time, while she was active, teammates were much less likely to receive damage because the enemies were distracted. And many meta builds use CC abilities. (Strangledome, Gloom, silence, Reservoirs, Shooting Gallery, Molecular Prime.)

Removing armor from terrify is not the most efficient. It is many times worse than gaze.
If we talk only about the abilities of the helminth, then Tharros Strike and pillage are not inferior to terrify and the ability to choose depends on the build.

I gave an example with a mirage to illustrate the fact that meta has reached the aisle. I can name a few more builds that are "Press an ability for infinite damage and spam weapons so that enemies die on spawn." And there will be no difference between them. And thanks to the helminth, this meta has become even more absurd, because the strongest buffs can be used on any warframe.

As for the players - most of them do not understand how games and warframe in particular work. They want survivability difficulty but don't want a revenant nerf, they want a boss with interesting mechanics but don't like it when they can't one-shot him. They want enemies to be more than just whipping dolls, but they don't like the Eximus being protected from their damage. Those people who understand are usually happy with everything, because they already have the opportunity to put a macro and one-shot everyone and they literally enter the game "After work for cheap emotions". And the funny thing is that, as we can see, dissatisfaction is coming to naught, and seemingly "Bad" decisions arouse interest in the game. Remember the AoE nerf? How many negative comments were there then ... And what now, it became impossible to play? - No. AoE has become useless? - No. Maybe the efficiency of farming and killings has become lower? - No. Or remembering eximus - when entering, a lot of people complained that this was a bad decision, but what do we see now? People began to think more often about what abilities, statuses or weapons should be taken into account that allow them to influence Eximus. They began to appreciate good builds more. And those who wanted efficiency? And they just turned off their Eximus abilities and kept oneshotting. 
If we think back to the Warframes themselves, people complained that the Revenant was useless when it was shown. People complained that Xaku was useless when they were shown. I recall the man's comment about gauss. "It makes no sense to use it, because Sarina kills everyone with one ability. And to use the 4th ability, what would the 3rd oneshot, so also press first and then hold it? It's mind-blowingly difficult and no one will use this warframe." Well, no one uses Gauss? Or is it too hard to play with? By the way, he also needs to first apply a few stacks of fire, and then cold for maximum efficiency, or you need to wait until the red line picks up a few percentages. By the way, he can also apply stacks of fire with his weapon and then use his damage ability, and the fact that it's an OPTIONAL MECHANIC makes it so difficult to use it unarmed.

(In general, it’s somewhat funny that I found so many parallels with Gauss, because I consider it one of the best frames, but I didn’t try to take it as a basis directly. By the way, one more confirmation that due to the high power of the players and the large number of mechanics, the ability sooner or later they start to become similar to each other.)

I don't want to make a new lavos. I want players to be able to achieve the same power stat as they do now, but in different, perhaps more complex ways. Because the current meta already allows you to get the best option for just one ability with one click. If we look at the change in the meta, we will notice a fun fact, something the latest frames that changed the meta did not change the style of play in any way, they simply combined two abilities into one. Khora is vauban+nekros, wisp is octavia+Arcane Acceleration (When I say that the Wisp is similar to the Octavia, I mean that in the party I use it so that it gives everyone survivability.)

As for the numbers - I specifically looked at xaku when I wrote the ability indicators. 1st ability is equal to Gaze, 3rd is greater than gaze. It is only necessary to calculate what the radius of the 2nd ability should be so that it. Regarding waiting, I forgot to write a paragraph about the 4th ability. In its radius, each tentacle will inflict the Corrosion and Magnet status with a 50% chance, and the tentacles hit very often and there are many of them. That is, by bringing the enemy into the 4th ability, you will have the opportunity to instantly remove armor without an augment for the first ability. As for the question "Why do I need such difficulties?"... Why take off the armor at all? Stacking buffs allows you to achieve damage that will one-shot ~1000 SP levels with one tick of fire or slash. And yes, it's solo on different frames. For there are a lot of buffs in the game that are not tied to the warframe. I will answer this question in the paragraph below. But for now, I suggest you think about it for yourself. Why use a frame that produces the same result as another frame, but in a different way?

If you focus on the meta like this, then all the abilities will be similar to each other. And the changes in the meta will simply combine several abilities into one.
Therefore, I focus on the strength of the meta, not its simplicity.
Such a hydroid will be played with, let only those who love this style do it. Your ideas turn the hydroid into a weaker version of the Xaku and will be forgotten even faster. (Greetings from caliban) If given the player the choice to remove armor with a single button press for 25 seconds or constantly spam, he will not choose to spam, because he already has the same thing, but stronger. But if you give the player the choice to remove armor by pressing one button every 25 seconds or by pressing a button after using a weapon, then a person who wants simplicity will choose the first, and a person who wants to come up with something of his own will choose the second. The limit of simplicity and efficiency has been reached and it does not create diversity. New warframes have long been focused on creating creative and interesting approaches to old things, and I primarily focus on this idea.

I'm apologize, but your ideas are even worse, because they copy the old character, reducing his stats and not introducing new mechanics. It wouldn't bring Hydroid into the meta either, but it wouldn't even provide alternatives. As I already said - to make a new meta character, it must either be a copy of existing ones with a large number of stats, or combine two existing frames into one.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Zendoker

[TheGodofWiFi]

@Zendoker Your post has many many errors in it. Is English your first language because it seems like you are completely missing the point of most of what I'm saying. 

Firstly, you say that "my ideas" are even worse than yours. I don't know how you can say that when I haven't even posted my ideas here. All I am doing is criticising yours, not posting mine. If you want to look at some of my ideas for reworking Hydroid, go and find some the old threads I posted. My ideas certainly do not turn Hydroid into another Caliban or a worse version of Xaku. You have zero knowledge of my ideas since I never posted them.

Secondly, the ideas that I do have are certainly not worse than yours because unlike you, I do not lean into unpopular frames that have proven to be unpopular and still are to this day. You quote a lot of false examples going on about Gauss, Revenant and Xaku. I would like to say that no, no one ever said those frames were going to be useless because their abilities looked good. The main criticisms mainly for Revevnant and Xaku was regarding their ultimate abilities. People did not like Revenant's original ultimate because it was basically a mass sleep-AOE which people did not find very useful or Eidolon-like. For Xaku, people complained that DE changed The Vast Untime's original 90% Damage Reducton to 75% Dodge Chance, which people rightly complained was rubbish and it is. 

Those complaints were valid and at least in Revenants case, that is the whole reason why he got his Disco Ball ultimate instead of that mass-sleep, because people had such a bad reaction to it. You also seem to think that just because people don't like it, that doesn't mean it is not a good idea. This is hilariously self-righteous and flawed thinking. It reminds me of when Ubisoft tried to convince gamers that NFTs were actually really good and that gamers "just don't get it yet". Players are right 90% of the time and if they say something is bad, its bad. The playerbase has said Lavos is clunky and inefficient, which means he is truly clunky and inefficient. Just like Hydroid is universally thought of as bad and in need of a rework, Lavos is thought of as very sub-par compared to a lot of other damage frames. The ironic and hypocritical thing is that you agree with people that Hydroid needs a rework and yet the logic you use for justifying your version of the rework, is the logic Hydroid die-hards use to say that he doesn't need one.

You say you don't want to turn Hydroid into a new Lavos, but that is exactly what your changes do and they are terrible. The simple fact of the matter is people do not like Lavos or his mechanics and unlike frames such as Gauss, Xaku or Revenant, Lavos has not gotten popular over time. He is still in the exact same position within the community as he was when he first got released; viewed as mediocre at best and inefficient at worst. People's opinions on Lavos have not sweetened, they have remained the same. So you cannot at all use frames like Gauss, Xaku or Revenant as comparisons.

Your point about CC goes straight over your own head. You mention frames like Khora and Wisp but the thing you forget is that those frames do not just offer CC. They came with a lot of other benefits and utility. Khora's Strangledome for example is terrible CC in terms of making it easier for players to deal with enemies. The main reason to why it is used is because of the utility its augment offers it, which is to gain more loot. Secondly, Khora does insane damage with her whipclaw and her Kavat helps her survive. She is an amazing frame due to a combination of this, not just her CC. That is my point; CC alone is not very useful, but with added utility it becomes more useful.

Terrify removes armour just as efficiently as Gaze I honestly have zero idea how you can claim otherwise. Also, unlike Gaze, the armour-strip from Terrify is permanent. Gaze's armour-strip only lasts for as long as the enemy is within the AOE radius, but Terrify can just remove armour permanently. You can spam it very easily and it can cover huge areas. Terrify is definitely not worse than Gaze for stripping armour at all. Also, the fact you say Tharros Strike and Pillage are not inferior to Terrify when they most definitely are, shows how disingenuous you are being. For one thing, Tharros Strike only affects enemies in a cone in front of him whereas Terrify is full 360 degree AOE. Pillage also requires 400% ability strength to fully strip enemies of armour and shields, which is the highest strength requirement for an armour-strip in the entire game. So yea, these two are 100/% inferior to Terrify in terms of armour-stripping efficiency.

And lastly, you stack ideas are still awful mate. The fact you say "oh you can potentially one-shot level 1000"  means absolutely nothing for two very important reasons;

1. 99% of players do not go to that high level and do not want or need to.
2. The relying on stack mechanics is still a system players do not like.

You are not going to get people to play Hydroid based on what potential numbers you can make him do. That is a major point you seem to be forgetting; fun. Players like to have fun and having the potential to one-shot high level enemies is not necessarily fun. Take for a example Wukong; he is the top most used frame across all platforms and mastery ranks by a huge margin. Yet he does not possess armour-stripping capabilities and he is not a huge inherent damage dealer. So how can he be at the top? Because players find his mechanics to be very easy to use and fun.

Hydroid technically already has scaling damage, which in theory is endless and could take him up to level 1000. However, that does not matter to people because Hydroid is not a fun frame to play. Your changes will not make him fun, they will just load Hydroid up with more unnecessary busy-work in order to make him capable of taking down enemy levels that hardly anyone cares about anyway. People do not want Hydroid to be able to take down level 1000 enemies with ridiculous stack-reliant one-shots, they just want him to be able to have fun gameplay and be effective at tackling the base end-game such as Steel Path. No one wants him to be the king of one-shotting level 1000 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Eximus units, they just want him to be a good warframe that can stand with other like Saryn, Mesa, Volt, Nezha and Nekros.

Again, Hydroid does not need to be overcomplicated, he does not need to be capable of one-shotting max level enemies, he does not need a Lavos-type rework. Again your ideas fix absolutely nothing about his problems and you outright refuse to acknowledge that the playerbase can actually be right about what they want sometimes, instead considering yourself above everyone else like some kind of crypto-bro. No thanks.

I've said my piece now, you are not going to change my mind and I'm clearly not going to change yours. So all I can say is I hope DE never implement anything like you're suggesting here, because Hydroid will not benefit from it.

Edited July 20, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi