Tigris Feedback - Certain Things That Don't Collerate In Design

[Casardis]

In terms of gameplay design, I find the Tigris in a weird spot in terms of balancing, and unfortunately, it seems to be a bad one.

 

   ~"No it's fine as it is"~

If you think and say that, please explain why. Assuming your opinion as facts without any analysis makes an empty argument.

 

   ~"Where's the TL;DR?"~

Sorry, but I don't think I'll make one. Just read the bold lines; it's pretty much the TL;DR.

 

 

Broad view of Tigris

 

- Deals more Slash damage than most shotguns

- One burst or two shots per clip.

- Tight spread

- Small pellet count (4 pellets)

- 1.8 base reload speed

- Decent Status Chance/Proc

 

 

Problems I see with these stats

 

From the looks of it, it seems that it was meant for light-armored target, or more specifically, Infested (if damage 2.0 spreadsheet on wiki is accurate, Slash does reduced damage against any Corpus, including Crewmen). We're going to take that part into account the most.

 

Due to that aspect, it has glaring flaws against the type of enemy they're supposedly good against, which in the end makes it arguably even less effective against other factions.

 

- Small pellet count and tight spread makes it horrible for crowd control already

 

- Coupled with the very low clip size, it's not effective to deal with multiple enemies, especially Infested where they often swarm us, even though the weapon's seemingly designed to be effective against Infested.

 

- The firing method along with all the elements above also makes you miss potential damage more often. This can be adjusted eventually with proper aiming, but again, we're fighting infested who run around a lot, sometimes in weird patterns due to wonky AI (not really something you can adjust to often); rapid fire or larger cone spread with more pellets is usually better against such faction.

 

- The damage itself isn't that impressive either, especially with the ability to miss often and having to reload

 

- This brings us to the reloading, which takes 1.8 seconds. The reload time's very punishing for a weapon that seems to be made to fight the Infested which has average damage, tight spread, low pellet count, low clip size (altogether very bad CC weapon, even with good Procs). The fact that it also has the delay after firing, like Vectis did before they patched it, can break the flow for such a weapon.

--- It's like high risk, low reward, other than looking cool.

 

- All these elements makes it feel like a weird short range sniper rifle that doesn't deal much damage anyway, with slower recovery at the same time (I personally can do better crowd control with a Vectis).

 

 

What I personally suggest

 

These are various simple suggestions I think could help the weapon without making it OP, but rather in the same level as Soma and Vectis for their respective category hopefully.

 

- Buff both its damage moderately high, and pellet count very high.

This is simple, really. More pellets means a wider spread in damage between pellets, which could be troublesome for a weapon who can't shoot a lot and misses its target. Therefore, adding more damage so that each pellets become more efficient will go well together with the increased pellet count.

 

The high pellet count will also make it benefit a lot from focus shot and crowd control, especially if it becomes the shotgun with the highest pellets in the game (which would kinda make sense to compensate for the fact it can't shoot lots before reloading). It will also be fitting of a true Infested destroyer by shredding crowds apart.

 

- Make its cone larger

That should apply only if above suggestion is added or else it will make it even less effective. A wider spread with only 4 pellets without Hell's Chamber would make it horrible for both focus shot and crowd control, but if damage and pellet count is buffed, that's a whole different story.

 

   ~"What if you use Vicious Spread?"~

It wouldn't help it if it still fires 4 pellets per shot. As I've said above, it would make it worse.

 

   ~"Then use Hell's Chamber with it"~

So in order to make this weapon decently into what it could have been to begin with , I have to use 24 mod capacity with two rare mods since it has no polarities, with only 6 slots left if I don't have a Potato on it? That would be bad design if you ask me.

 

- Decrease its reload time drastically.

This is self-explanatory, really. A shotgun that reloads quite slowly can only fire once or twice, that can miss easily, seemingly designed to take against a faction that often spawns in a swarm with fast moving units. There's a big problem in my eyes design-wise.

 

- Remove the short delay when using the Firing button to reload

It's the same thing that happened with the Vectis, and since it was fixed for that weapon, why not do it to the Tigris as well? Its firing style would benefit from that.

 

- Keep its current firing method.

Yes, a suggestion of non-change. I think the firing method's cool and unique, a breath of fresh air almost, but I personally think it strongly needs some of the changes above to make this work as its finest.

 

Last Thoughts

We already have Shotguns with tight spread (Sobek, Hek, Brakk, Strun Wraith), and we have certain ones with low pellets but high magazine capacity (Hek). We have auto-shotguns and semi-auto. We have shotguns that can easily be built for crits.

 

Tigris' case is quite a bit unique, but seems to take certain elements from the existing ones that actually don't fit for its design.

Therefore, making it a quick reloading, high damage with highest pellet count and spread + Proc to fight against Infested would contribute to its uniqueness too, while making it more effective to what it's seemingly designed to do (and by doing so, will become a bit more effective against other factions too).

 

In short, make it a high CC weapon with great damage against Infested to shred them. When it's against other factions, its Proc will be what determines its effectiveness, and with the buff, it will actually be more viable against them, even with their resistances.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Casardis

[Lumireaver]

I kind of feel you. My Tigris is good for nothing except looking incredibly stylish, and shooting the first member of the legion as they bumrush me. If it was intended to be a zombie hunter, it needs to be designed to CC. If it was designed to be a slug shotgun, it needs to be tweaked as well. One way or another, the Tigris doesn't seem to do anything with any conviction. :(

[SabreUr]

I think that cone can be made a little larger by using +dmg + spread corrupted mod (Vicious Spread?). But I do agree with your points. I would add one more:

 

-Add at least one polarity V.

Edited November 23, 2013 by SabreUr

[Casardis]

I think that cone can be made a little larger by using +dmg + spread corrupted mod (Vicious Spread?). But I do agree with your points. I would add one more:

 

-Add at least one polarity V.

 

I was thinking that at first, but as I've said, a wider cone will NOT help it unless it has more pellets. Hell's chamber can only do so much for a 4 pellets shot (it works for Sobek because it has 20 friggin' shots in each magazine, but wouldn't work for Tigris in its current situation where it doesn't know what it wants to be).

 

Also, all my YES for at least one V polarity for Hell's Chamber <3

Edited November 23, 2013 by Casardis

[SabreUr]

I was thinking that at first, but as I've said, a wider cone will NOT help it unless it has more pellets. Hell's chamber can only do so much for a 4 pellets shot (it works for Sobek because it has 20 friggin' shots in each magazine, but wouldn't work for Tigris in its current situation where it doesn't know what it wants to be.).

 

That is true, but we do what we can, until DE will take a second look at Tigris, which may take between 1 day and n months (where n is any number).

 

Which is bad - I like the overall feel of Tigris, but it's gun that is very hard to love :). It should send gibs flying, now it's very meh.

[Casardis]

Hopefully they do. They did buff Sobek and it's now in a very good position I believe. I don't like the weapon itself, but people who used it seems to like it.

 

I'm just surprised at this Tenno weapon's balancing, considering how well, in my opinion, they pulled off Vectis.

[Wahooo]

The only plus this weapon has currently is that it is damn sexy.

 

The crafting cost is pretty high, I would expect at least a V polarity.  A - would also work considering it is meant for infested... but that is an issue also.

Nothing about this weapon other than slash damage is right for fighting infested.

Generally they messed up with how the damage types were allocated to the different shotguns.  Infested require higher pellet count, higher magazine.. the opposite of Tigris.  The reload is just too long compared to its total damage.

[SlyBoots]

came to the same conclusion as you rather quickly. no matter how you look at it it just doesn't make sense. i mean with accelerated blast you get good puncture damage and with the right elements it can do just fine vs grineer and corpus but that reload time is insane. add to that that some mods like the reduced reload time one for shotguns are utterly useless and the weird spread/pellet count and the tigris is just in a sad state.

Edited November 23, 2013 by SlyBoots

[Cursor]

I agree on basically every point.  Damage and pellet count needs to go up, at least one polarity, and reload time needs to be dropped.  Like, 1.4, maybe 1.2 I'd say.

 

And because this continues to be a frustration of mine, this is yet another shotgun that is inferior to the Brakk in every aspect (except slash damage, but Brakk still has more raw damage).

 

Obviously this isn't necessary, and after all, Tigris has no master requirement (right?)?  But it's a really lackluster weapon, and I'd love to actually have an actual reason to use such a pretty gun.

[SabreUr]

I just checked - with Vicious Spread on -2 max level (2 bars black) I can snipe Crawler from across the ramp on Xini while standing near cryopod. Or hit with 80% of pellets lockers near far side of the ramp (ramp near cryopod). This shotgun has too narrow cone :/ - it's sniper shotgun.

Edited November 23, 2013 by SabreUr

[Casardis]

I just checked - with Vicious Spread on -2 max level (2 bars black) I can snipe Crawler from across the ramp on Xini while standing near cryopod. Or hit with 80% of pellets lockers near far side of the ramp (ramp near cryopod). This shotgun has too narrow cone :/ - it's sniper shotgun.

 

Tested with maxed Vicious Spread. It's still tighter than regular Strun Wraith I think XD

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah, its cone is as tight as the Sobek's, which is pretty hilarious considering what it's for. 

 

They should triple (yes, triple) the diameter of the cone and double the number of pellets. Bam, instant screen-clearing weapon. 

 

Edit: Before I forget - what the hell is up with the crit on this thing!? 1.5x/2.5%?! REALLY?! That's not just awful, that's an outright MISTAKE! This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! There is literally no reason to put a crit mod on this thing, ever. Frankly, I think its crit mod should be at least 20%. That would at least make it an option, as opposed to an absolute joke. Either that or just standardize it with the other shotguns (2.0x/10%) if you want to be lazy about it. 

Edited November 24, 2013 by Zyrusticae

[Casardis]

I think it doesn't need crit since most shotguns have that already. To compensate for the lack of crit, it should just get raw damage (so that you don't need to put crit mods on it and focus on elemental CCs).

 

That's if they buff it of course.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Casardis

[Felandi]

I posted this in a similar thread, but it certainly feels valid here. So here you go.

 

The Tigris is a gem that needs levels, a reactor and some forma to unleash upon your enemies. You can in fact consider it the Lectis bolt action of shotguns due to it's fire mechanic.

 

See, it is unaffected by attack speed mods, which means that only reload speed matters. Hence, you can apply Tainted Shell on this weapon for NO PENALTY! Making it a single-target assassination weapon rather than a crowd-control one.

 

From this point you simply add in your normal damage mods, the slash damage mod and fire+cold. Your Tigris is now an infested murder machine, with a blast damage proc that will tear grineer gunners and other armoured enemies apart

 

"But Fel, extremely tight spread is good. But what about the damage fall-off?" An exellent question, imaginary bystander! Have you ever tried shooting a shotgun through Volt's electric shield? You might want to give that a try.

 

I currently have my tigris at rank 27, no forma yet and a catalyst in it. I find it is one-shotting (Or one clicking might be the word in this case) rank 40 ancients and corrupted and normal grineer gunners.

 

What I DO feel this gun needs is a higher status proc chance. It has pretty much no crit and a low pellet number, so making the elemental damage more reliable would make this (pick your target closely) weapon better.

[Casardis]

You've brought up some of the potentials about Tigris. However, I believe they don't hold up at all against the core problems the weapon has.

 

Tainted Shell can increase the delay between shots and reloading, just like the Vectis. With Accelerated Blast I technically reload faster too since there's less delay (coupled with Tactical Pump it's quite a nice reload speed, but still too slow in relation to the rest in my wall of text).

 

Also, I don't think tight spread is good, at all, especially not for this type of shotgun, and especially not for its intended purpose. The one-shotting enemies that it does, other shotguns seem to be able to do it better while having better crowd control at the same time due to the spread, pellet numbers and number of shots per clip.

 

Tigris may be relatively good to kill a single Ancient out of the mobs, or the first enemy in a swarm, but it's extremely bad at taking the swarm itself (which, again, taking into consideration that it's supposed to be an infested killer and we need CC against infested more than most factions, it's really bad).

 

We already have Vectis performing better than this as an assassination weapon (Vectis has a lot of Slash damage), not to mention better CC due to Shred and super fast reload. Also, we shouldn't require a specific Warframe to make a weapon decent to play with in the first place.

 

Its overall design just feels off and all over the place, without being very good at any of them in the end. Due to its design, Formas won't help it further to increase its power exponentially for it to really shine, especially compared to certain other weapons in the same category which, without Formas and only a Catalyst, can arguably perform much better.

 

Lastly, I wouldn't mind it having higher procs, but that's not what's going to help this weapon in the long run I believe.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Casardis

[poiuiyup]

I just don't understand what role it's meant to fill...

[Evan-0-matic]

I love my Tigris...

 

But I can't stand the firing mechanic! Yeah, it's unique... and yeah, it's a pain in the butt. I feel like I'm using one of my bows (with non of the benefits) by having to hold the fire button down just so i can save on reload time and damage.

 

It should be, one mouse click, one shell fired. I can actually enjoy shooting the crap outta things then and not worry about remembering to hold each mouse click. Such a bummer.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Evan-0-matic

[castem]

Agreed.  The Tigris is in a weird spot, and it definitely needs looked at.

 

+1

[Scar.Heart]

The biggest problem here is that the Tigris is trying to act like the Sobek, but with a tenth of the clip size.

If I wanted to fire single, 4 pellet shells rapidly, the Sobek is there and waiting, with 20 to the clip, just as high damage, and an ungodly reload time.

And at that point, I'd probably go for Boar Prime, which has bigger spread, higher pellet count, faster reload, and extreme RoF.

 

 

Switch this firing mechanic out. It does not make sense to have on a shotgun, especially for a low-ammo, Infested-specialized shotgun.

Replace it with a single shot that fires both shells simultaneously, or give the Tigris more ammo per clip (boo!).

 

That'll double pellets per shot (still low, imo) and increase damage per shot. Hell, it may even lower the amount of potential damage lost.

With a reduced reload time, that could be all it takes.

 

Of course, this is me asserting my personal taste on double-barreled shotguns.

But I truly do feel it could be helpful for the Tigris. I just don't know how much.

__

EDIT: Had my sleep, can think a tad clearer.

 

Really, this shotgun shouldn't be specialized toward Infested.

2 shots isn't enough to deal with a crowd coming toward you in crazy-&amp;#&#33; patterns, regardless of weapon type. Sure, there's the Punch Through mods, but do remember a lot of Tenno won't have this coming in. And who knows how long it'll take to acquire one?

 

If anything, this shotgun should switch places with the Sobek or Boar Prime, who has clip size, RoF and decent damage to deal with mobs rushing toward you. (Sobek would still have the pellet count + tight spread problem, though)

Tigris feels like something better off against the Grineer or Corpus, given the two shots, tight spread, and low pellet count.

It needs bigger, slower targets to be made effective for what it's got.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MagnusFury

[Casardis]

There's also the fact that puncture mods are really expensive. Again, there's no reason to make a weapon require all of this just to be remotely decent in overall effectiveness and focused effectiveness.

[DeadlyNerd]

I just want the reload delay and firing mechanism gone.

 

It could use a larger spread too, but that's secondary.

[SlyBoots]

[...] Hence, you can apply Tainted Shell on this weapon for NO PENALTY! Making it a single-target assassination weapon rather than a crowd-control one.

 

From this point you simply add [...] fire+cold. Your Tigris is now an infested murder machine, with a blast damage proc that will tear grineer gunners and other armoured enemies apart

 

you think relying on two mods for 10 to 20 mod capacity for any kind of crowd control against the melee horde faction is a valid argument? (if it even triggers reliably...) either that or you just contradict yourself.

 

"But Fel, extremely tight spread is good. But what about the damage fall-off?" An exellent question, imaginary bystander! Have you ever tried shooting a shotgun through Volt's electric shield? You might want to give that a try.

 

of course, that totally fixes tainted shell! (and the tigris! in one go!) this rare rank 10 mod that took tons of creds and cores to fuse up can really shine on this one frame using this one ability! being stationary is also the best idea in most combat situations in the game!

Edited November 25, 2013 by SlyBoots

[Casardis]

Bump.

 

Tigris needs some lovin' like its Tenno weapon brothers and sisters.

[SpringwoodSlasher]

firing mechanism is great in my opinion.

 

it just needs either more damage or a faster reload. i would prefer more damage. this way you get an excellent ancient-sweeping tool.

[wsippel]

Maybe it's a misconception. It seems like the Tigris is primarily meant to fight Infested, when it's actually most effective and efficient against Grineer. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

I love the feel of the weapon and the firing mechanism is fun, but the weapon definitely needs some stat changes to make it more viable. Lowest crit chance and tiny clip size means it should have the highest base damage of all shotguns for starters. And it really needs at least one polarity slot out of the gate. 

Edited November 26, 2013 by wsippel