Fixing Zaws would be very easy! (rebalance suggestion)

[vixenpixel]

Just add a new tier of links, vargeet III ruhang etc. Super easy. 

 

EDIT: instead of 32/10 link tier 3 could be 30/20, offering the ability to make hybrids, which would increase versatility without buffing OP exodia contagion or Force.

Edited September 4, 2023 by vixenpixel

[Zakkhar]

What is wrong with Zaws? 

You get: dedicated possibily overpowered damage-wise or utility arcane instead of pure melee stats.

Only problem is see is lack of hybrid zaws variety (20+ in both crit and status), but that has nothing to do with buffing them

All my record damage numbers (both 1 time damage and overall dmg) are made with Zaws.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Zakkhar

[vixenpixel]

56 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

What is wrong with Zaws? 

You get: dedicated possibily overpowered damage-wise or utility arcane instead of pure melee stats.

Only problem is see is lack of hybrid zaws variety (20+ in both crit and status), but that has nothing to do with buffing them

All my record damage numbers (both 1 time damage and overall dmg) are made with Zaws.

That's not made with zaws, that's made with [exodia contagion]. XD

[vixenpixel]

58 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Only problem is see is lack of hybrid zaws variety (20+ in both crit and status), but that has nothing to do with buffing them

That is the exact thing I meant to adress. A cc 30 status 20 or similar arcane would be wildly more interesting than a 32/10. Reversed 30 status 20 cc would also be very nice for a variety of builds. Currently, to make a hybrid zaw you need to literally downgrade the link, which feels really wrong.

[vixenpixel]

I personally have not used exodia contagion much at all, I've ever only used it for Profit taker. It looks like a terribly boring way to play the game. Having a singular powerful gimmick that let's you do just that one single thing extremely overpoweredly while everything else in your kit is just there as furnishing isn't my idea of interesting gameplay. Sure you put your eclipse on occasionally to break your previous record on damage. This is so uninteresting to me that I don't know what to tell you. That's not a reason "why zaws are in fact balanced". That's just questionable gamedesign that seems to have slipped under DE's radar for many years. Maybe it is because it requires more than one button to be mashed? Regardless, the existance of a singular broken arcane does not provide balance to an entire concept of weapons, especially not in the light of new weapons having much better cc/status ratio. When zaws released, those stats were strong, now they arn't - that's a fact. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by vixenpixel

[Zakkhar]

I love how you are contradicting yourself in every statement.

1. You quote the whole part of my statement where in the start it clearly says you get a dedicated overpowered arcane instead of pure stats, jut to say it is made with contagion. Yes, it is made with contagioon, be my guest to use it on non-zaw.

2. You state you did not use the contagion much, you admit of not using one of its gimmicks (Eclipse is meh btw), but you are sure of a fact that is boring playstyle.

10 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Having a singular powerful gimmick that let's you do just that one single thing extremely overpoweredly while everything else in your kit is just there as furnishing isn't my idea of interesting gameplay.

3. It is called specialisation and synergy and since you have not been even remotely close to explore the mechanic of Zaw arcanes I have to help you. Yes, there is contagion, yes you can eclipse, but do you know what works much better than eclipse? Vex armor. You know what works much better and is more fun and requires more skill than simple E throw? Heavy throw while air sliding in the opposite direction. But contagion is not the only exodia arcane that is fun and effective to play. There is this thing called Exodia Epidemic that forces a Lifted status in a very large area ignoring collision along with some viral procs. You know what benefits from groups of enemies being Lifted?https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Set_Mods#Saxum_Mod_SetThere are some more gimmicks to be had that synergise with each other, creating fun and powerful playstyle, but that is not a place or the time to list them all.

You basically want to have a cookie and eat a cookie, but you are not even sure what flavour the cookie is.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Zakkhar

[Pakaku]

Ah, more power creep, and having to rebuild perfectly fine zaws if you want an improved version. Sounds fun...

[vixenpixel]

On 2023-09-02 at 2:45 AM, Zakkhar said:

I love how you are contradicting yourself in every statement.

1. You quote the whole part of my statement where in the start it clearly says you get a dedicated overpowered arcane instead of pure stats, jut to say it is made with contagion. Yes, it is made with contagioon, be my guest to use it on non-zaw.

2. You state you did not use the contagion much, you admit of not using one of its gimmicks (Eclipse is meh btw), but you are sure of a fact that is boring playstyle.

3. It is called specialisation and synergy and since you have not been even remotely close to explore the mechanic of Zaw arcanes I have to help you. Yes, there is contagion, yes you can eclipse, but do you know what works much better than eclipse? Vex armor. You know what works much better and is more fun and requires more skill than simple E throw? Heavy throw while air sliding in the opposite direction. But contagion is not the only exodia arcane that is fun and effective to play. There is this thing called Exodia Epidemic that forces a Lifted status in a very large area ignoring collision along with some viral procs. You know what benefits from groups of enemies being Lifted?https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Set_Mods#Saxum_Mod_SetThere are some more gimmicks to be had that synergise with each other, creating fun and powerful playstyle, but that is not a place or the time to list them all.

You basically want to have a cookie and eat a cookie, but you are not even sure what flavour the cookie is.

I am specifically not talking about exodia arcanes. I'm talking about the crappy status/cc juxtaposition. Going with a tier 1 link is actually better for weeping wounds synergy on a zaw but you are sacrificing your cc. I would love a tier 3 link that provides a 30/20 ratio or something similar and it would be a very easy "fix" (me right now: 'better put the word 'fix' in quotation marks or Zakkhar might have a heart-attack'). :D

Stop purposefully misreading me to provide a counter-argument because I called you out on your exodia contagion flex, please. I am well aware of exodia epidemic's function but have not played around with it much. Sounds fun though, I might try it. 

On 2023-09-02 at 5:03 AM, Pakaku said:

Ah, more power creep, and having to rebuild perfectly fine zaws if you want an improved version. Sounds fun...

I mean, you wouldn't really have to. Adding a link with 30/20 ratio would lower the max value of a specialised link that gives 32/10 but provide an option to make a hybrid cc/status build for those that think it would be fun to play around with. 

[vixenpixel]

On 2023-09-02 at 2:45 AM, Zakkhar said:

2. You state you did not use the contagion much, you admit of not using one of its gimmicks (Eclipse is meh btw), but you are sure of a fact that is boring playstyle.

I've been playing games for the last 25 years and warframe for the last 3-4 years. Just as I have the mental capacitance required to determine that a genre of games or a specific game is not for me, I believe I can determine that Exodia Contagion builds are also not my cup of tea. That doesn't mean I'm S#&$ting on your fun, man. Not errybody has to like the same stuff. :D

[Fred_Avant_2019]

More room for customisation and fine tuning is not too meaningful when your goal is to maximize the efficiency of a weapon, you'll just end up going what's the best option and settle for just that. Not everyone does, naturally, but I think it's safe to say Zaws are >mostly< fine as is, we can't forget how powerful some of the arcanes are and the fact that they're limited to just Zaws, not every melee.

You can't use them in Circuit. But would it matter outside of Exodia Contagion/Force abuse? Probably not.

There are weapon types you can't replicate with the modular weapon system : gunblades, two handed nikanas, dual swords, dual daggers, assault saw, blade and whip, claws, fists, glaive, heavy scythe, nunchaku, sparring, sword and shield, tonfa, warfans and lastly, whips, all of those have no Zaw variants. Would adding them all or some of them end up fixing Zaws? Probably not.

Zaws aren't flawless, but would it be the right move to make them flawless?

Because at the end of the day, players I encounter who play with Zaws are often just abusing the Exodia Contagion meta, having big PP numbers in the damage chart, overkilling their enemies, and putting your average pub tenno squad at 0~6% damage done when they have the same number of kills. More options isn't going to change that, neither in a positive or negative fashion, the status quo would remain. Passing crit or status thresholds isn't going to help on anything you would commonly encounter outside of 6+ waves of steel path circuit or endurance runs.

[vixenpixel]

9 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

More room for customisation and fine tuning is not too meaningful when your goal is to maximize the efficiency of a weapon, you'll just end up going what's the best option and settle for just that. Not everyone does, naturally, but I think it's safe to say Zaws are >mostly< fine as is, we can't forget how powerful some of the arcanes are and the fact that they're limited to just Zaws, not every melee.

You can't use them in Circuit. But would it matter outside of Exodia Contagion/Force abuse? Probably not.

There are weapon types you can't replicate with the modular weapon system : gunblades, two handed nikanas, dual swords, dual daggers, assault saw, blade and whip, claws, fists, glaive, heavy scythe, nunchaku, sparring, sword and shield, tonfa, warfans and lastly, whips, all of those have no Zaw variants. Would adding them all or some of them end up fixing Zaws? Probably not.

Zaws aren't flawless, but would it be the right move to make them flawless?

Because at the end of the day, players I encounter who play with Zaws are often just abusing the Exodia Contagion meta, having big PP numbers in the damage chart, overkilling their enemies, and putting your average pub tenno squad at 0~6% damage done when they have the same number of kills. More options isn't going to change that, neither in a positive or negative fashion, the status quo would remain. Passing crit or status thresholds isn't going to help on anything you would commonly encounter outside of 6+ waves of steel path circuit or endurance runs.

I totally agree with everything you wrote. My idea was a link that gave 30/20 instead of 32/10, though. :)

[quxier]

On 2023-09-01 at 3:00 PM, vixenpixel said:

Just add a new tier of links, vargeet III ruhang etc. Super easy. 

Fix zaw by adding more... that's not very detailed.

On 2023-09-01 at 3:26 PM, Zakkhar said:

What is wrong with Zaws? 

For me it's limited weapon types & "harder" to make weapons without too much benefits.

On 2023-09-03 at 3:12 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Zaws aren't flawless, but would it be the right move to make them flawless?

Because at the end of the day, players I encounter who play with Zaws are often just abusing the Exodia Contagion meta, having big PP numbers in the damage chart,

And what are Zaws? They are harder to do melees with few arcanes slap into them. Of course, some people would use them for arcanes. I'm using zaws especially for arcanes. Withotu arcanes I have no reason to play them as most of them are clunky (bugged stances) and don't give anything new.

[vixenpixel]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Fix zaw by adding more... that's not very detailed.

Sorry. I added an addendum now, Check my edit.

[vixenpixel]

On 2023-09-01 at 3:00 PM, vixenpixel said:

Instead of 32/10 link tier 3 could be 30/20, offering the ability to make hybrids, which would increase versatility without buffing OP exodia contagion or Force.

I tried to do it, made a keewar with 25/18 cc/status. It's the best I could do. It's pretty okay but feels weird to use a lower tier link to pull off the build i wanted.